View Full Version : America’s Most Isolated Federal Prisoner Describes 10,220 Days in Extreme Solitary
Feuer Frei!
05-25-11, 08:57 AM
Now this is about a week or 2 old, but still an interesting read:
Thomas Silverstein, who has been described as America's most isolated man, has been held in an extreme form of solitary confinement under a no human contact order for 28 years. Originally imprisoned for armed robbery at the age of 19, Silverstein is serving life without parole for killing two fellow inmates (whom he says were threatening his life) and a prison guard, and has been buried in the depths of the federal prison system since 1983.
In his current lawsuit against the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Silverstein contends that his decades of utter isolation in a small concrete cell violate the Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment, as well as its guarantee of due process. (The lawsuit, brought by the University of Denver Civil Rights Clinic, is described in detail in our article Fortresses of Solitude (http://solitarywatch.com/2011/02/28/fortresses-of-solitude/). Update: On Friday, federal District Court Judge Philip Brimmer set a court date (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18013074)of January 23, 2012 for a jury trial in the Silverstein case.
In support of that lawsuit, Tommy Silverstein, now 59, has written a long declaration, the purpose of which is primarily to describe my experience during this lengthy period of solitary confinement: the nature and impact of the harsh conditions I have endured in spite of a spotless conduct record for over 22 years, and my lack of knowledge about what, if anything, I can do to lessen my isolation. After apologizing for the actions that brought me here in the first place, particularly the murder of corrections officer Merle Clutts, Silverstein contends that he has worked hard to become a different man. He continues, I understand that I deserve to be punished for my actions, and I do not expect ever to be released from prison. I just want to serve out the remainder of my time peacefully with other mature guys doing their time.
he bulk of the declaration is a detailed account of Silverstein's experiences and surrounding in a series of what constitute the most secure and isolated housing in the federal prison system: in the notorious Control Unit at Marion, the supermax prototype; at USP Atlanta in a windowless underground ;side pocket cell that measured 6 x 7 feet (almost exactly the size of a standard king mattress, at Leavenworth in an isolated basement cell dubbed the Silverstein Suite on Range 13 at ADX Florence, where the only other prisoner was Ramzi Yusef; and finally in ADX's D-Unit, where he can hear the sounds of other prisoners living in neighboring cells, though he still never sees them. The following is from Tommy Silverstein's description of his life at USP Atlanta:The cell was so small that I could stand in one place and touch both walls simultaneously. The ceiling was so low that I could reach up and touch the hot light fixture.
My bed took up the length of the cell, and there was no other furniture at all-The walls were solid steel and painted all white.
I was permitted to wear underwear, but I was given no other clothing.
Shortly after I arrived, the prison staff began construction on the side pocket cell, adding more bars and other security measures to the cell while I was within it. In order not to be burned by sparks and embers while they welded more iron bars across the cell, I had to lie on my bed and cover myself with a sheet.
It is hard to describe the horror I experienced during this construction process. As they built new walls around me it felt like I was being buried alive. It was terrifying.
During my first year in the side pocket cell I was completely isolated from the outside world and had no way to occupy my time. I was not allowed to have any social visits, telephone privileges, or reading materials except a bible. I was not allowed to have a television, radio, or tape player. I could speak to no one and their was virtually nothing on which to focus my attention.
I was not only isolated, but also disoriented in the side pocket. This was exacerbated by the fact that I wasn't allowed to have a wristwatch or clock. In addition, the bright, artificial lights remained on in the cell constantly, increasing my disorientation and making it difficult to sleep. Not only were they constantly illuminated, but those lights buzzed incessantly. The buzzing noise was maddening, as there often were no other sounds at all. This may sound like a small thing, but it was my entire world.
Due to the unchanging bright artificial lights and not having a wristwatch or clock, I couldn't tell if it was day or night. Frequently, I would fall asleep and when I woke up I would not know if I had slept for five minutes or five hours, and would have no idea of what day or time of day it was.
I tried to measure the passing of days by counting food trays. Without being able to keep track of time, though, sometimes I thought the officers had left me and were never coming back. I thought they were gone for days, and I was going to starve. It's likely they were only gone for a few hours, but I had no way to know.
I was so disoriented in Atlanta that I felt like I was in an episode of the twilight zone. I now know that I was housed there for about four years, but I would have believed it was a decade if that is what I was told. It seemed eternal and endless and immeasurable
There was no air conditioning or heating in the side pocket cells. During the summer, the heat was unbearable. I would pour water on the ground and lay naked on the floor in an attempt to cool myself
The only time I was let out of my cell was for outdoor recreation. I was allowed one hour a week of outdoor recreation. I could not see any other inmates or any of the surrounding landscape during outdoor recreation. There was no exercise equipment and nothing to do
My vision deteriorated in the side pocket, I think due to the constant bright lights, or possibly also because of other aspects of this harsh environment. Everything began to appear blurry and I became sensitive to light, which burned my eyes and gave me headaches.
Nearly all of the time, the officers refused to speak to me. Despite this, I heard people who I believed to be officers whispering into my vents, telling me they hated me and calling me names. To this day, I am not sure if the officers were doing this to me, or if I was starting to lose it and these were hallucinations.
In the side pocket cell, I lost some ability to distinguished what was real. I dreamt I was in prison. When I woke up, I was not sure which was reality and which was a dream.
SOURCE (http://solitarywatch.com/2011/05/05/americas-most-isolatd-federal-prisoner-describes-10220-days-in-extreme-solitary-confinement/)
Life in Solitary.
Should have thought about that before he killed those people. No sympathy for him.
sidslotm
05-25-11, 11:49 AM
Does this man deserve a life in prison for murder, yes. But a life in solitary is beond my understanding. The only reason I cannot agree with hanging is, I could not do it myself and therefor would be unable to ask someone else to do something I would not do. It is one thing to kill someone while in a rage, but to calmly pull the handle that springs the trap door, not me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pierrepoint
Interesting facts about a UK hangman.. sid
Should have thought about that before he killed those people. No sympathy for him.
Bit harsh but I agree. I'm sure it made him more than insane, but if he seems to be doing well with his writing or story telling, whatever it is. I'd figure he'd be rocking back and forth against a wall, with his arms crossed against his chest after that long of a time.
Skybird
05-25-11, 12:15 PM
Right, August. Why even wasting a cell on him? Put him into a coffin-box, with flexible tubes in his stomach and lunges, and two more between his legs and bottom cheeks.
Cruelty is part of justice, right?
So you guys think i'm being harsh? Then what punishment for the three murders he committed in prison do you think is appropriate?
The man is in solitary because he has demonstrated, three times, that he is a danger to his fellow prisoners as well as the guards. If they let him back into the general population and he kills again are you willing to take responsibility for it?
Skybird
05-25-11, 04:10 PM
If you read carefully you see that he was not even allowed to have TV, reading materials, or anything. In his words, he was left with no way to occupy his time, while he got buried alive, as he describes the process of building the isolation cell around him. He was being made disoriented and subject of what as a psychologist I need to classify as sensory deprivation. He gave indication that the officers took personal revenge upon him. He had one hour per week of "recreation", being left in a place where to see nothing and where to do nothing.
Nothing of that is just, or a prevention of him turning aggressive again, or protecting other inmates, and having him living in the open civil society again where he poses a threat to others is something that nobody has mentioned but you. What is described in that article is: taking revenge by torturing him. You could as well chain him to a wall and fixiate him there, like they did with insane people in past centuries.
I see little, if any, difference in the wickedness of treating prisoners like this, and the crimes this prisoner has committed. There are worse things than dying, and the biblical logic of "an eye for an eye" is nothing I see as a basis for "justice" or "communal protectiun".
On war efforts, in past threads I said determination is enough, we must not seek to be cruel beyond military need. But the same is true for law enforcement. Be determined in protecting the community, okay. Cruelty is something different.
I refuse to discuss this any longer, August. Either you have what it takes to understand this from a human point of view, or you have not. To brutalise your own soul is something that serves nothing and nobody, it acchieves no justice and protects nobody.
Tell it to the family of the guard he murdered.
Skybird
05-25-11, 05:00 PM
Okay, by that famous last words you can argue to throw every criminal having harmed other people or having killed somebody, into sensory deprivation and lifelong isolation.
I have and my family has lost loved ones to idiots behaving like azzes - and despite my grumble with the courts and the lax laws and my rage for the offenders responsible, I do not feel any desire to make the offenders subjects of measures like in this case. ;)
And if you argue that it is an eye for an eye and cruel punishement for all times and death would not be good enough - you often have taken side with Christian dogmas and beliefs in various threads, defending Christian religion in general. Now consider what Jesus said about forgivenes, and try to imagine if what you feel and say would be in conformity with what he has told people.
Is your position on this issue really that Christian at all?
Determination is enough, and fully sufficient. Cruelty beyond that is not needed.
Platapus
05-25-11, 05:06 PM
I do believe this prisoner needs to be kept in isolation/segregation. But the conditions he describes, assuming he is not lying, do seem a bit extreme.
Okay, by that famous last words
Now if you only would follow your own advice.
I refuse to discuss this any longer, August.
Seth8530
05-25-11, 08:48 PM
Should have thought about that before he killed those people. No sympathy for him.
August, if for no other reason.. think about the US Constitution.. It protects Us from cruel and unusual punishment.. We can not turn our backs on such basic principles as that. Personality i wouldnt be against having him executed.. but this is just wrong....
August, if for no other reason.. think about the US Constitution.. It protects Us from cruel and unusual punishment.. We can not turn our backs on such basic principles as that. Personality i wouldnt be against having him executed.. but this is just wrong....
You are assuming the situation is as he claims it is. He'll get his hearing in front of a judge but innocent until proven guilty does not apply here.
Seth8530
05-25-11, 09:15 PM
well, it should be a simple matter to check shouldnt it be?
well, it should be a simple matter to check shouldnt it be?
Check what? That he hears voices? That he was sentenced to solitary confinement for three murders that he committed while already in prison for armed robbery?
The bottom line here is that the mans own heinous actions have put him in this situation. Now he's trying to whine his way out of it and maybe get a chance to kill more people. I say no way.
Feuer Frei!
05-25-11, 10:45 PM
Are we any better than the murder who is in solitary confinement?
By putting him there?
And in that condition?
Agreed, his crimes are punishable and wrong.
However, what purpose does this solitary confinement serve?
Our lust for cruelty and observing suffering has no bounds.
However, what purpose does this solitary confinement serve?
I thought that would be quite clear. It prevents him from attacking and killing even more prisoners and guards.
Would you be willing to share a cell with this guy?
Feuer Frei!
05-25-11, 11:20 PM
You do realise that prisoners can be kept seperated from each other in ways other than solitary confinement?
I call this psychological torture.
You do realise that prisoners can be kept seperated from each other in ways other than solitary confinement?
Such as?
I call this psychological torture.
Do you believe everything you read on the internet or just the unproven claims of convicted killers? Personally i'll bet he's seriously exaggerating if not outright lying.
In any case like I already said he will get his hearing so we'll see what the judge says about it. Save your torture hyperbole until then.
Seth8530
05-26-11, 12:02 AM
Im pretty sure this kinda confinement counts as torture. Im not against having him killed like i said earlier.. I mean whats wrong with giving the dude a book or somthing? is that going to endanger the guards?
Im pretty sure this kinda confinement counts as torture. Im not against having him killed like i said earlier.. I mean whats wrong with giving the dude a book or somthing? is that going to endanger the guards?
You are assuming that he was refused books. How do you know this? Because he says so?
kraznyi_oktjabr
05-26-11, 01:39 AM
You are assuming that he was refused books. How do you know this? Because he says so?
There is no way to determine if he is talking truth in this. I say my opinion based only into these alleged conditions.
If Mr. Silverstein is honest with his description of his situation then this is unnecessarily harsh. I agree that keeping him separete from rest of prisoners is based on his criminal history necessary to protect others. However I don't agree that indefinitely continuing solitary confinement is necessary. He should be allowed to communicate with others (guards, other inmates, people outside prison) as long as he do not use this into criminal purposes like organizing violence.
Denying possibility to maintain own physical fitness with exercising, making sleeping hard by keeping lights on 24/7, taking away possibility for reading or some other activity, or getting information about outside world and so on are not necessary to protect others.
My opinion is that prison should be punishment place not State funded hotel as they are here in Finland but Mr. Silverstein's conditions are in my opinion unnecessarily cruel. If this kind of situation had lasted for defined period like few weeks or months I would readily accept it but not as infinite punishment.
All this is ofcourse based on story of one side of case. It's hard to say what is truth in this unless prison officials release details on Mr. Silverstein's conditions.
Of course it's a one sided story do you think the Federal gov't isnt going to tell the truth of the torture it puts Americans through? Tommy is the longest held in this torture chamber but our gov't holds 200,000 in this capacity. Silencing them. The mainstream media is finally picking it up.
Tommy did not go into prison a murderer, we could all end up there. Guns, pot you name it. Our rights outside of prison are limited our country incarcerates 25% of the world's people we incarcerate more than China does.
Prision is the punshiment isolation is torture ask Sen. Mccain. Tommy defended himself against the D.C. Blacks and was put in isolation then a sadistic CO. Clutts decided isolation wasnt enough a little more threats and unrestrained cavity searches and humiliation Tommy was a man and he was able to end one kind of torture only to be buried alive. Our country has a constitution. Which is ignored stand up for Tommy an American that has withstood more than anyone. Midnight Express when Mickey killed his sadistic guard we were happy. Right? This is America not Turkey.
Feuer Frei!
05-26-11, 06:28 AM
@ August:
There are three main types of segregation within the penal institutions: disciplinary segregation, administrative segregation, and protective custody.In this case, the last does not apply. Not yet.
Disciplinary segregation is the term used when placing one in the hole as punishment for a specific rule infraction the prisoner has admitted committing,
or for which he or she has been convicted.
Administrative segregation occurs when officials wish to disrupt or prevent an ongoing or potential security threat. These inmates are transferred to any of several secure units or facilities, like separate administrative segregation units, protective custody units or even country jail beds.
Moving that person to another section of the prison may be sufficient.
The 8th Amendment protects inmates from suffering cruel and unusual punishment.
The 5th Amendment, in conjunction with the 14th Amendment, prohibits the
state from depriving any person from life, liberty, or property without affording that person due process of law.
How we process misconduct is a matter of judgment in most cases.
So it seems there are some ways to seggregate. And also some sticking points in relation to this case.
First and foremost i must add that in no way do i condone this man's criminal actions.
Also i must ask, is it the accepted norm to dump and forget a prisoner behind solitary confinement, such as this and offer absolutely no chance whatsoever for rehabilitation, which is a major function of correctional facilities.
If this is deprived, deliberately, and for whatever reason other than to have the aforementioned mentality, then surely that is a failure on the Justice system and the facility which houses the person in question.
Not least of all in violation of some aforementioned Amendments.
EDIT:
Here is the entire Declaration by him, all 64 pages worth.
Puts things into perspective, when talking about solitary confinement. And experiencing it:
http://solitarywatch.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/silverstein-declaration.pdf
You may also thank Tommy if you are not raped in prison the COs dont care they incite violence to keep their union asking for more money.White men were over run before the likes of Tom came to prison. Stop hating this man demand our gov't to abide by our Constitution.
Obama wants more supermax prisons. Why do we need more torture chambers for American people? This is a warrior group, Why not support Tom?
Are we any better than the murder who is in solitary confinement?
By putting him there?
And in that condition?
Agreed, his crimes are punishable and wrong.
However, what purpose does this solitary confinement serve?
Our lust for cruelty and observing suffering has no bounds.
Feuer Frei!;you are wise. There is no corrections in this country. Let the gov't call it whateverADSEG SHU SMU it just silences people they are offered nothing, no rehabilitation no hope, it is hell not prison. Who does the cruelty serve each body represents a pay check. of course people should go to prison but our constitution that people have fought and died for must be recognized
You may also thank Tommy if you are not raped in prison the COs dont care they incite violence to keep their union asking for more money.White men were over run before the likes of Tom came to prison. Stop hating this man demand our gov't to abide by our Constitution.
Obama wants more supermax prisons. Why do we need more torture chambers for American people? This is a warrior group, Why not support Tom?
This animal murdered three people. He deserves what he gets.
:down:
I'm pretty sure murder does not dehumanize a person and turn them into an animal. One of the fundamental flaws of many, many punishment systems is precisely that: dehumanizing transgression. Crime is a human phenomenon. Murder is a human phenomenon. Until that's acknowledged, you can't possibly begin to have just punishment. Worse, dehumanizing anyone almost automatically leads to the logical ability to dehumanize everyone. And that's not a society I'd want to live in.
I'm pretty sure murder does not dehumanize a person and turn them into an animal.
No i'm sure this creep was an animal long before he murdered those three people.
DarkFish
05-26-11, 09:23 AM
And if you argue that it is an eye for an eye and cruel punishement for all times and death would not be good enough - you often have taken side with Christian dogmas and beliefs in various threads, defending Christian religion in general. Now consider what Jesus said about forgivenes, and try to imagine if what you feel and say would be in conformity with what he has told people.Oh how ironic that torture, capital punishment and often even imprisonment were introduced into Germanic territories by Christianity;)
Skybird
05-26-11, 09:35 AM
Oh how ironic that torture, capital punishment and often even imprisonment were introduced into Germanic territories by Christianity;)
??? Häh...? :doh:
When Julius Cesar struck into Germania, Rome still was not christianised, and the Germanic tribes had little in common with the Germans of modern time, ethnically we are a very different breed today, far more Slavic and Roman than any Germanic at all (that'S why I always laugh when they try to abuse the battle in the Teutonian Forest for nationalistic "German" propaganda...) . But even before Rome's invasion, the place was battled over, and I'm sure the various tribes controlling the places knew how to torture, to imprison and how to execute long before Chrstianity even was born.
No i'm sure this creep was an animal long before he murdered those three people.
Is the justice system's job to judge human nature, or to judge criminal acts?
Frankly I don't think it's our job to judge human nature, especially ex post facto. 'Justice' systems built on assessments of nature are extremely dangerous.
AVGWarhawk
05-26-11, 11:02 AM
Prison rehabilitates? No sir.
Capital punishment is a deterrent? No sir.
Do prisoners form groups or gangs? Yes sir.
Do these groups or gangs cause problems? Yes sir.
Are some prisoners not to be trusted in the general population? Yes sir. Some are not.
Is prison supposed to be Club Med? No sir.
Solitary confinement, is it always just a rubber room with nothing else? Sometimes. Also known as "The Hole."
This prisoner is apparently a problem child. Killing inmates and guards will get you solitary confinement. I agree with August on this issue. The man earned his solitary cell. As for being denied magazines, etc. I have not read he was left to read the bricks and bars with no outside stimulus such as magazines and books.
Charles Manson...now there is a roomy I would not want to be behind bars with.
Armistead
05-26-11, 12:15 PM
No doubt prision turns people into even worse people, the problem is when they let loose those people. Today judges release murderers, rapist, robbers and we all watch the news as they go right back killing.
Prision should be for violent offenders, others should have to work and pay back the people they harmed. If that can't be done, then rehab type prision
Is it possible that this man was a victim in prision, I doubt it. The majority of inmates don't kill others, those that do should be executed. The problem is murderers often sit in jail for life, do you think they care if they kill someone else, what punishment is left....take away rights.
If we would execute this scum to start with we wouldn't have many of these issues. Maybe the other inmates will read his work and say, " I ain't killing no guard." It's called making an example of him, let him rot.
Seth8530
05-26-11, 01:20 PM
No i'm sure this creep was an animal long before he murdered those three people.
So by murder he automatically loses all of his constitutional rights? So, by your logic if you commit a crime you forfeit constitutional rights.. So at precisely what level of crime is it that you get to kiss your bill of rights goodbye?
Sailor Steve
05-26-11, 01:31 PM
So by murder he automatically loses all of his constitutional rights? So, by your logic if you commit a crime you forfeit constitutional rights.. So at precisely what level of crime is it that you get to kiss your bill of rights goodbye?
Actually yes he does. He loses the right to vote, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to liberty, the right to the pursuit of happiness, and sometimes the right to life.
A person who commits murder, as with the person who commits most any crime, loses his freedom. For how long depends on the nature of the crime. This man lost his freedom because of his original crime. He was put in solitary because he murdered people inside the prison. Do you think he shouldn't be punished beyond his original sentence? Should they just extend his sentence. What about the second murder he commited while in prison? The third?
We outsiders have two problems here. The first is exactly what should be done when this sort of thing happens. The other is the question, as August mentioned, of whether this "person" is even telling the truth. And, as August also said, this will be resolved when his upcoming review takes place.
Now I have a question for you: Exactly what Constitutional rights should a murderer retain? Freedom of speech? Religion? Assembly? Arms? Search and Siezures? Self-Incrimination? In prison, as in the military, those rights are modified somewhat if not removed altogether. What rights do you think should be retained?
[edit] The right to vote and the right to keep and bear arms are permanently denied any convicted felon, and for life. I disagree with those, as I believe that a man who has served his time has indeed "paid his debt to society". That said, we're not talking about that situation, but about people currently serving their time.
Anthony W.
05-26-11, 02:08 PM
Firing squad, seriously, or hanging, or electric chair, or decapitation
AVGWarhawk
05-26-11, 02:10 PM
Actually yes he does. He loses the right to vote, the right to keep and bear arms, the right to liberty, the right to the pursuit of happiness, and sometimes the right to life.
A person who commits murder, as with the person who commits most any crime, loses his freedom. For how long depends on the nature of the crime. This man lost his freedom because of his original crime. He was put in solitary because he murdered people inside the prison. Do you think he shouldn't be punished beyond his original sentence? Should they just extend his sentence. What about the second murder he commited while in prison? The third?
We outsiders have two problems here. The first is exactly what should be done when this sort of thing happens. The other is the question, as August mentioned, of whether this "person" is even telling the truth. And, as August also said, this will be resolved when his upcoming review takes place.
Now I have a question for you: Exactly what Constitutional rights should a murderer retain? Freedom of speech? Religion? Assembly? Arms? Search and Siezures? Self-Incrimination? In prison, as in the military, those rights are modified somewhat if not removed altogether. What rights do you think should be retained?
[edit] The right to vote and the right to keep and bear arms are permanently denied any convicted felon, and for life. I disagree with those, as I believe that a man who has served his time has indeed "paid his debt to society". That said, we're not talking about that situation, but about people currently serving their time.
:up:
Seth8530
05-26-11, 02:11 PM
I believe that any person within this country has the rights of free speech, right to vote, they should be protected from cruel and unusual punishment ( that right was designed for prisoners i do believe), right to a speedy trial, the right to bear arms while in prison doesnt make sense ^_^.. but yeah.. i think he should be treated as a human.. and any prisoner once released should regain any rights lost as a result of their incarceration.
Platapus
05-26-11, 05:01 PM
This animal murdered three people. He deserves what he gets.
Do we keep all prisoners who are convicted of killing three or more people in the same conditions?
If yes, then your justification that he should be treated this way because he killed three people is valid
If not, then your justification that he should be treated this way because he killed three people is not valid.
It is not about what he may or may not deserve. It is about the laws and regulations governing our prison system.
Platapus
05-26-11, 06:04 PM
http://solitarywatch.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/silverstein-declaration.pdf
A most interesting and thought provoking read.
I would be interested in hearing the BoP's position on this.
Sailor Steve
05-26-11, 10:54 PM
I took the time to read the whole thing. If it is supported by outside testimony this probably does qualify as "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". It does need to be corroborated by independent testimony, but on the face of it, it looks pretty bad.
Seth8530
05-26-11, 11:10 PM
Thank you for taking the time to read it. That is insightful/.
DarkFish
05-27-11, 10:40 AM
??? Häh...? :doh:
When Julius Cesar struck into Germania, Rome still was not christianised, and the Germanic tribes had little in common with the Germans of modern time, ethnically we are a very different breed today, far more Slavic and Roman than any Germanic at allFirst of all, you make the common yet huge mistake of confusing "Germanic" with "German". Also, it's bull that we are more Roman or Slavic than Germanic. Sure, there's hardly anyone at all who's still got pure Germanic blood, but we're more Germanic than Roman or Slavic or whatever.
Anyway, what do demographics have to do with this anyway?
And what do the Romans have to do with this?
I'm sure the various tribes controlling the places knew how to torture, to imprison and how to execute long before Chrstianity even was born.Well, you may be sure, but you certainly aren't right;) Let me quote this simple passage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_law)about Germanic law:
"The Germanic law system is in principle based on compensation rather than revenge."
Well, you may be sure, but you certainly aren't right;) Let me quote this simple passage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_law)about Germanic law:
"The Germanic law system is in principle based on compensation rather than revenge."
Yes, and did you read the top of the page:
Several Latin law codes of the Germanic peoples written in the Early Middle Ages (also known as leges barbarorum "laws of the barbarians") survive, dating to between the 5th and 9th centuries. They are influenced by Roman law, ecclesiastical law, and earlier tribal customs.
Germanic law was codified in writing under the influence of Roman lawSo, in a sense you are both right. :D
GoldenRivet
05-27-11, 04:55 PM
if he has repeatedly demonstrated intention and ability to cause harm to other inmates as well as guards then by all means place him in solitary.
Solitary confinement in my opinion should be like regular confinment
8' x 8' cell consisting mostly of a bed and a toilet. as for recreation - i think more like 3 hours per week is a bit more fair than what he is claiming.
TV???? someone mentioned TV
TV is not a right - its a privilege which must be earned.
I'll show no sympathy for him. he deprived several people of their own lives... why then should he be set up in some pent house prison pad for the rest of his time on earth?
this whole problem could go away in a split second in front of a firing squad.
Sailor Steve
05-27-11, 06:55 PM
I agree, he certainly deserved solitary. But twenty-eight years with no real human contact? I don't know all the facts, or if he's even telling the truth, but it should be pretty easy to verify one way or the other, and it certainly needs to be looked at.
Platapus
05-28-11, 07:44 AM
. why then should he be set up in some pent house prison pad for the rest of his time on earth?
Why are you trying to make your argument by referencing an unrealistic extreme that was not offered by the prisoner. That is a clumsy way of debating.
At no time in his document nor in this discussion has anyone mentioned that this prisoner should be moved to a "penthouse prison pad".
All he is asking is that he be treated the same as other prisoners who have killed in prison.
The rational for solitary confinement should be to act as a behaviour modification punishment
If you do this, you get solitary
If you don't do this, you get out of solitary.
Keeping someone in solitary for years and not giving any standards to get out of solitary removes any behavior modification rational. This prisoner has asked many times "what do I need to do?" A fair and reasonable question.
As for keeping other prisoners and guards safe, there are several levels (depending on the facility) for segregation and isolation, none of them requires solitary confinement. This guy is not the only prisoner who has killed in prison. If the others who have killed more than three people are not kept in solitary confinement for 20+ years, why is this prisoner singled out?
This is why I want to hear the BoP's side before making a forming a final opinion.
Assuming that what this prisoner wrote (and that will come put at the hearing), I don't understand why segregation would not be sufficient? It almost sounds like this is a case of revenge - the BoP is getting back at him. Which is not how a prison system is supposed to work. Emotions should have no part in running a prison system.
I am glad he is getting a hearing, I am just fearful that because it is within the BoP that he may not get a fair hearing. To prevent conflicts of interest, these types of hearings should be held by the judicial branch and not the executive branch.
Armistead
05-28-11, 11:00 AM
I believe that any person within this country has the rights of free speech, right to vote, they should be protected from cruel and unusual punishment ( that right was designed for prisoners i do believe), right to a speedy trial, the right to bear arms while in prison doesnt make sense ^_^.. but yeah.. i think he should be treated as a human.. and any prisoner once released should regain any rights lost as a result of their incarceration.
I disagree, just because you've done your time, doesn't mean you've paid all your dues. Many prisioners go out on parole for years to follow them.
Ending jail time doesn't equate to you're through with the system, it's just part of the punishment.
Child sexual abusers often can't live near schools or get near children after prision and will be on list often for life.
Ending prision is just a step, it doesn't end the stages of justice. Even then many go right back to jail for the same crime. Makes me sick when murderers and rapist are set free and kill or rape again in days....
Platapus
05-28-11, 12:23 PM
[edit] The right to vote and the right to keep and bear arms are permanently denied any convicted felon, and for life. I disagree with those, as I believe that a man who has served his time has indeed "paid his debt to society". That said, we're not talking about that situation, but about people currently serving their time.
In Virginia, convicted felons can petition the governor to have their voting rights reinstated. But it takes a bit of justification to get this done.
It is probably a good solution to a difficult problem.
Sailor Steve
05-28-11, 02:56 PM
I disagree, just because you've done your time, doesn't mean you've paid all your dues. Many prisioners go out on parole for years to follow them.
Ending jail time doesn't equate to you're through with the system, it's just part of the punishment.
True, but there is also a difference between parole (which is guarded early release) and actually having served your time.
Child sexual abusers often can't live near schools or get near children after prision and will be on list often for life.
And every case needs to be judged individually. Child-moleststation is a particular sickness that needs to be monitored. On the other hand if such a person brutalized and murdered your child, and you retaliated, you would then become a felon. After serving 20 years should your rights not be restored? Be aware that I'm not arguing for or against that case, merely asking the questions. The fact is I don't have an answer, but I do wonder about these things.
Ending prision is just a step, it doesn't end the stages of justice. Even then many go right back to jail for the same crime. Makes me sick when murderers and rapist are set free and kill or rape again in days....
I agree. On the other hand there are felons who serve their time and then go on to useful and productive lives. I don't see many, but it is possible.
Seth8530
05-28-11, 03:29 PM
one thing that i think we all need to consider is that.. Its not that hard to kill someone.. I mean, how many of yall have been in a fight before? In the heat of the moment how hard would it be to let things get out of hand.. and before you know it he is dead? It was wrong.. you shouldn't of killed him... but it doesn't mean you wont ever do anything useful with your life ever... people can change.
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