View Full Version : Germany back than, vs Isreal now
the_tyrant
05-25-11, 08:02 AM
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/GazaHolo/index.html
(warning, graphic content)
saw it on a different forum
Disclaimer: I am not anti Israel or anti Semitic, i am actually pro Israel
Penguin
05-25-11, 08:08 AM
If you have an opinion why don't you state it, rather than just copying a link?
Do you think this comparision is legit or not? And why so?
TLAM Strike
05-25-11, 08:45 AM
Funny... didn't see any photos in the German colum of Jews with bomb vests blowing up buses or launching rockets in to civillian areas. :roll:
Funny... didn't see any photos in the German colum of Jews with bomb vests blowing up buses or launching rockets in to civillian areas. :roll:
Me either, and a wall looks like any other wall but comparing one designed to keep inmates in with one designed to keep armed killers out is just wrong.
JSLTIGER
05-25-11, 09:44 AM
Me either, and a wall looks like any other wall but comparing one designed to keep inmates in with one designed to keep armed killers out is just wrong.
Not to mention that these pictures are taken completely out of context. There's a major difference between prisoners held solely due their race and slowly starved to death, treated inhumanly, etc. and ones that are validly held because they have committed some sort of actual crime and are clothed, fed, and housed humanely. Any doubts about that? Look at the state of the prisoners. You don't see any Israeli prisoners that look like skeletons. Moreover, it looks like the third picture is actually a bunch of Muslim prisoners at prayer. Stark contrast to the Jews who were sat down before being murdered.
Penguin
05-25-11, 10:24 AM
I think that comparision is a kick into the face of the victims of the Nazi rule, a kick into the face of the Israelis and a kick into the face of the Palestinians, too.
I would like to kick the creator of this pamphlet into the face.
That the pictures are out of context is just one thing, no written explanations or facts to backup the claims is another one. That's how the moronic Generation Facebook "communicates" - though I think that the picture is older, have seen that or analogue ones already years ago.
Nice website btw, you learn everything about how the Zionists control America, who shot JFK, the Pearl Harbor hoax, of course that Obama is no US citizen, and, hey, did you know about 9/11? :o :damn::damn::damn:
If you have an opinion why don't you state it, rather than just copying a link?
Do you think this comparision is legit or not? And why so?
[.............]
that's what I thought....
Rockstar
05-25-11, 10:32 AM
Disclaimer: I am not anti Israel or anti Semitic, i am actually pro Israel
I find that hard to believe when you post hit and run garbage like this.
.
saw it on a different forum
Disclaimer: I am not anti Israel or anti Semitic, i am actually pro Israel
So why the ---- did you post the pictures.
To show how open minded and objective you are.
Or to show how some twisted ---- can easily skew the truth.
Most of the pictures are taken from checkpoints by which Palestinian pass to earn money in Israel.
Checkpoints which did not look like this before they become targets for terrorist attacks and suicide bombers.
Those checkpoints are not photogenic but in most cases people are treated with respect as much as security measures.
Sad girl in a her window crying?
Solder holding a gun which looks as he is aiming at 5 years old?
The other boy just stand relaxed with his hand in his pockets?
That's exactly what anti Israeli propaganda is based on.
Some pictures from Ramallah(behind the wall)
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQojA6QaST28y5R-0ph_kPCFAkG7uaNAVmQhX7ZT89DcEYdLtLiHA
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGVw_TCsx509t-ez0K8_Ws3_d1E-yEtscEuOzXeUB2MpIiv7PY
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7rOzS7kcIhqg_0xFO8Sxnmm0DUFrqE Rpmaz1GUHSnRnJyE_1Z
The nazi Palestinian policeman!!!
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPTs2FzKJDYOjcMX2VxQUnk9_AGtomy Ws6cdkD4VnRlYaPlrv5NQ
Have some falafel....
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwpvfEx52E2a4jT1JxzcBpcuRzG0ca1 iGcitPFUtV-vVqY3vEe
HunterICX
05-25-11, 10:42 AM
Apart from that...you might want to put a warning about graphical content...decapitated head or a burned corpse of a child isn't really pleasant to see you know.
HunterICX
the_tyrant
05-25-11, 11:07 AM
I was positively shocked by the pictures, and I really don't have an opinion that i can express in words easily.
but this comparison is interesting though
Nice website btw, you learn everything about how the Zionists control America, who shot JFK, the Pearl Harbor hoax, of course that Obama is no US citizen, and, hey, did you know about 9/11?
Website funded by the Iranian ministry of Propaganda, Subversion and Sabotage. :yep:
Violence is horrible no matter who and against whom it's perpetrated, and I don't think apologizing for Israel's misdeeds - and there have been plenty - is necessary.
But the comparison is completely inappropriate, because you can't take those pictures out of their context. In fact, using that kind of visual parallel is EXTREMELY misleading and deceptive. While it's heartbreaking to see dead Palestinian children and atrocities committed by Israeli forces, comparing the Israeli barrier and Israeli security to German extermination camps and the German SS is not only inaccurate, but grossly inappropriate and just flat out disgusting, because some uneducated fool out there will see it and internalize that as a true parallel. There's not even CLOSE to a comparison. I consider this a slap in the face to the millions of dead and tens of millions who suffered under German occupation.
Instead of showing "reality of violence", all this does is perpetrate a disgusting, divisive myth.
Skybird
05-25-11, 11:48 AM
Highly suggestive, highly manipulative, highly unreasonable, highly biased. Not any objective at all.
Stupid people will love it.
Perhaps he was curious as to the reception of charged images as part of the propaganda that is so clearly linked with both sides of such conflicts, regardless of morality - clearly he has stirred some polarised views in this thread, directed at him, where, other than posting some pictures with a 'what do you think' feel to them, he has not supported or decried either camp.
Clearly some opinions see it otherwise.
There are plenty of links posted in this forum with no view or opinion attached, and no-one really complains about that, or the context of the links/articles, so why is it that all the toys are grasped, ready to throw out of the pram, when anything to do with the state of israel is involved?
Some of you guys are far to ready to shoot first and ask question later.
For the record, the killing of unarmed men, women and children is an offence to humanity, irrespective of who is behind the trigger. Justifying such deaths as some how necessary or acceptable as part of some larger event is just cold.
Who's to say what the circumstances really are? A picture paints a thousand words, as they say, and comparing two images from either end of an ideological perspective is at best emotive, and at worst divisive (as some of this topic clearly shows).
However, context or not, there are some people in the world who see some quite stark similarities with both sets of images. If we ignore the ideology of the nazis or the state of israel (notice I do not use 'jews' in this context as we are dealing with a government and not a people or creed here) there are some equally shocking events that have more than a passing similarity as they were captured on film as a still image.
To suggest that these images have no relevance to the current ME situation or that it is somehow an attack on the jewish nation is disingenuous at best.
All too often the cry of intolerance or anti-semitism is trundled out and ends up completely overtaking the original point; which is the same for governments all over the world. Refuting a political and ideological government policy is not racist or anti semitic, nor is it anti palestinian or anti islamic, just as the oposite of these is not pro-israeli, or pro-palestinian, or pro-islamic, despite what agitators would try and convince otherwise.
It is true to say that the nazi state murdered many many jews as part of some gross ideology.
It is true to say that the state of israel has murdered many civilian palestinians, both by military means and economic sanctions to create a state separate and of its own, inviolate.
It is true to say that many palestinian and islamic extremists have murdered many israelis for reasons just as obscene as any nazi belief.
So who is 'right' and 'just' in their actions and who is wrong and evil?
They all are. And it always depends on who you ask about whom.
There is no right or wrong in my opinion, there's just disparate groups of people killing each other for some goal that is as insane as any other since time began.
There's certainly no denying the fear and bloodshed of both sets of images - comparing them as a means to support an ideology is subtle and invidious, however. Something which all parties are guilty of. That they both show pain and suffering seems almost beside the point, is lost in the melee that inevitably follows...
Blood feuds, matters of right and wrong and just cause have ceased to have any meaning in real terms. To those caught up in the turmoil an image of a child's severed head is just more fuel for the fires of their cause. The means have become the end, as it were. Endless, perpetual and truly a disgusting account of what we are capable of and willing to wholeheartedly embrace for so long that no-one knows or cares 'who started it' or understands why. In this case, all for some sun baked dirt steeped in religious ideology.
What a waste of time and hope, all of the lives spent for so little cost.
As you might see, I truly do not understand why this continues in the way it does. The only explanation is that humans are insane and the price of our insanity is blood, flowing in rivers out of the past and into our future with no end in sight.
Perhaps I only think this way because I don't live in such a place. But that means I am just as insane given the right circumstances, as anyone forced to live under fear and tyranny.
Sorry chaps, that got very bleak all of a sudden :dead:
One thing is sure, our reactions to such horrors often say a great deal more about each of us than we successfully articulate ourselves. Maybe that's where we fail so badly at understanding each other?
jumpy, like I said, I wouldn't defend Israel - they're in the wrong too. Although in some sense, something like this not only distorts, but also diminishes the reality. It makes it seem like something that's happened before, something that we've 'been there, done that' and know how to deal with. When in fact this is a unique situation that needs a pragmatic solution based on reality, not fictional comparison.
JSLTIGER
05-25-11, 01:43 PM
To suggest that these images have no relevance to the current ME situation or that it is somehow an attack on the jewish nation is disingenuous at best.
All too often the cry of intolerance or anti-semitism is trundled out and ends up completely overtaking the original point; which is the same for governments all over the world. Refuting a political and ideological government policy is not racist or anti semitic, nor is it anti palestinian or anti islamic, just as the oposite of these is not pro-israeli, or pro-palestinian, or pro-islamic, despite what agitators would try and convince otherwise.
With all due respect, the vast majority of us were not decrying anti-semitism about this, merely that the comparison and portrayals being compared on this site are completely void of any semblance of context. Much of what is being shown are tricks of photography or taking images completely out of context.
Comparison:
1. Jewish men with their arms raised in surrender: likely being rounded up either to be sent to a ghetto, concentration camp, or simply to be murdered. Regardless, they were going to be killed, even if they had done nothing wrong.
2. The Palestinian man with his pants lowered and the Israeli pointing a weapon at him: Likely he was stopped because he was acting suspiciously and was suspected of carrying some kind of weapon or being a suicide bomber. Presumably, once he was determined not to be a threat, he was allowed to go on his way, unhindered and unharmed. You cannot blame the Israeli soldier for not taking a chance on this (as it has been a fairly common occurrence). Moreover, there is no way that the same could be said of the people in the Nazi-era picture.
You cannot compare the walls of Auschwitz to the wall that Israel has erected. It's apples and oranges. One was designed to keep a people confined so that killing them would be easier, the other was designed to make it harder for people who want to kill to get into a country and accomplish that goal.
The deaths and wounding of children is a tragedy, and Israel should do everything that it possibly can in order to prevent the injury and deaths of children, even when trying to target terrorist leaders. However, let us not forget that in the past, busloads of Israeli children have been targeted by terrorists for doing nothing more harmful than simply going to school.
Now, I will readily admit that I am Jewish, and staunchly pro-Israel to boot. This is not to say that I think that the Israeli government is right 100% of the time. It's not. But I strongly disagree with any assertion that this is even a remotely fair or valid comparison.
Perhaps he was curious as to the reception of charged images as part of the propaganda that is so clearly linked with both sides of such conflicts, regardless of morality - clearly he has stirred some polarised views in this thread, directed at him, where, other than posting some pictures with a 'what do you think' feel to them, he has not supported or decried either camp.
Clearly some opinions see it otherwise.
There are plenty of links posted in this forum with no view or opinion attached, and no-one really complains about that, or the context of the links/articles, so why is it that all the toys are grasped, ready to throw out of the pram, when anything to do with the state of Israel is involved?
Some of you guys are far to ready to shoot first and ask question later.
For the record, the killing of unarmed men, women and children is an offence to humanity, irrespective of who is behind the trigger. Justifying such deaths as some how necessary or acceptable as part of some larger event is just cold.
Who's to say what the circumstances really are? A picture paints a thousand words, as they say, and comparing two images from either end of an ideological perspective is at best emotive, and at worst divisive (as some of this topic clearly shows).
However, context or not, there are some people in the world who see some quite stark similarities with both sets of images. If we ignore the ideology of the nazis or the state of israel (notice I do not use 'jews' in this context as we are dealing with a government and not a people or creed here) there are some equally shocking events that have more than a passing similarity as they were captured on film as a still image.
To suggest that these images have no relevance to the current ME situation or that it is somehow an attack on the jewish nation is disingenuous at best.
All too often the cry of intolerance or anti-semitism is trundled out and ends up completely overtaking the original point; which is the same for governments all over the world. Refuting a political and ideological government policy is not racist or anti semitic, nor is it anti palestinian or anti islamic, just as the oposite of these is not pro-israeli, or pro-palestinian, or pro-islamic, despite what agitators would try and convince otherwise.
It is true to say that the nazi state murdered many many jews as part of some gross ideology.
It is true to say that the state of israel has murdered many civilian palestinians, both by military means and economic sanctions to create a state separate and of its own, inviolate.
It is true to say that many palestinian and islamic extremists have murdered many israelis for reasons just as obscene as any nazi belief.
So who is 'right' and 'just' in their actions and who is wrong and evil?
They all are. And it always depends on who you ask about whom.
There is no right or wrong in my opinion, there's just disparate groups of people killing each other for some goal that is as insane as any other since time began.
There's certainly no denying the fear and bloodshed of both sets of images - comparing them as a means to support an ideology is subtle and invidious, however. Something which all parties are guilty of. That they both show pain and suffering seems almost beside the point, is lost in the melee that inevitably follows...
Blood feuds, matters of right and wrong and just cause have ceased to have any meaning in real terms. To those caught up in the turmoil an image of a child's severed head is just more fuel for the fires of their cause. The means have become the end, as it were. Endless, perpetual and truly a disgusting account of what we are capable of and willing to wholeheartedly embrace for so long that no-one knows or cares 'who started it' or understands why. In this case, all for some sun baked dirt steeped in religious ideology.
What a waste of time and hope, all of the lives spent for so little cost.
As you might see, I truly do not understand why this continues in the way it does. The only explanation is that humans are insane and the price of our insanity is blood, flowing in rivers out of the past and into our future with no end in sight.
Perhaps I only think this way because I don't live in such a place. But that means I am just as insane given the right circumstances, as anyone forced to live under fear and tyranny.
Sorry chaps, that got very bleak all of a sudden :dead:
One thing is sure, our reactions to such horrors often say a great deal more about each of us than we successfully articulate ourselves. Maybe that's where we fail so badly at understanding each other?
Thank you very much for your opinion.
I agree to most what you said.
Violence is wrong killing is wrong its all wrong.
I'm all for live and let me live my life.
So now what?
Should i lite a joint and vote for my government to disband borders of my country.
Maybe should i turn my self into victim for your sympathy.
Stop blockade of Gaza dismantle checkpoint and pray for the best?
Join Middle East Union?
Believe it or not as Israeli don't want to keep million Palestinians under Israeli control in West Bank.
I don't care much about settlements in west bank.
I dont care about Gaza.It has nice beaches though.
Problem is that too many Palestinians envision destruction of Israel as first priority.
They themselves don't see good of Palestinians as they priority above all.
Those organisations may not be the majority but they got the guns and good friends around ME and in many cases EU.
Which means they got the power and influence.
Seem to be good at posting pictures out of context as well.
That's why is hard to let go Palestinians on their own.
It may be an invitation to even bigger bloodshed in even greater continuation in delegitimizing Israel.
We must become "victims" to win sympathy if any?.
For me Israel is my country.
My family lives here and it really pisses me off that some philosophical smart asses think that have right to discuss my legitimacy of being here.
We build ourselves a nice country while our neighbors had been busy hating us and driving themselves into poverty fighting us off and blaming us for their misery.
They became the poor victims and won sympathy while Israel is relatively reach country.
It sometimes seems to me that maybe Israel is doing to well... somehow....
We should return to be those poor helpless Jews?
Penguin
05-25-11, 02:37 PM
Perhaps he was curious as to the reception of charged images as part of the propaganda that is so clearly linked with both sides of such conflicts, regardless of morality - clearly he has stirred some polarised views in this thread, directed at him, where, other than posting some pictures with a 'what do you think' feel to them, he has not supported or decried either camp.
Clearly some opinions see it otherwise.
There are plenty of links posted in this forum with no view or opinion attached, and no-one really complains about that, or the context of the links/articles, so why is it that all the toys are grasped, ready to throw out of the pram, when anything to do with the state of israel is involved?
Some of you guys are far to ready to shoot first and ask question later.
Yup, in this case I am one of those first shooters. It is a difference if someone posts a link from a newspaper article, or from a site made by imbeciles. And also in the case of the newspaper, I try to check the facts/sources.
As you stated, these images are pure propaganda, with a clear message and intention. There is no sitting on the fence, either you agree with the message, or not. If I post a hammer and sicle picture with the caption: "Stalin is the greatest leader" it is the same. Either I agree with it, or not. If I post it without further comment, it is fair to think that I stand behind this.
It would be another thing to post, e.g. a picture of an Israeli checkpoint with a crying Palestinian woman next to it in combination with an article that reports from one of these checkpoints. This could ;) start a balanced discussion.
And Israel is not a normal state, we all know in which wake it was founded. If Britain had the same history, I would jump up too, when propaganda tries to turn the former victims into the same criminals under which they suffered. So sorry, you won't find any "I try to compensate what my grandpa did" intention in my case. I know you didn't say this - just pre-emptive ;)
For the record, the killing of unarmed men, women and children is an offence to humanity, irrespective of who is behind the trigger. Justifying such deaths as some how necessary or acceptable as part of some larger event is just cold.
Who's to say what the circumstances really are? A picture paints a thousand words, as they say, and comparing two images from either end of an ideological perspective is at best emotive, and at worst divisive (as some of this topic clearly shows).
I highlighted the important sentence. And this is exactly the point: A picture of a dead body just shows this: a dead body. By putting it into a connection, one can try to look at the circumstances, but also use it for propaganda. A picture of a dead child in a concentration camp, shows with 99% certainty a child who was intentionally murdered. A pic of a shot Palestinian child shows a shot Palestinian child. Who shot it is unclear, for some people it is clear that it must have been the Israelis. If the child was shot by the IDF, it is also a legitimate question to ask: why did they shoot? Maybe during a military operation where they fight armed adults, maybe in defense against armed adults , or maybe - as the pictures suggest - because they want to kill Palestinian childs because they follow a sick ideology...
A victim of the war nonetheless!
A little personal example: My aunt, who I never met, died as a baby shortly after WW2. She was sick and the only people who had antibiotics were the British who occupied this sector here. The british military doctor refused to treat her, she died. Do I despise the doctor? Sure! Do i hate the British? No! Do I hate the people and the ideology that caused this mess? With all my heart and my blood!
However, context or not, there are some people in the world who see some quite stark similarities with both sets of images. If we ignore the ideology of the nazis or the state of israel (notice I do not use 'jews' in this context as we are dealing with a government and not a people or creed here) there are some equally shocking events that have more than a passing similarity as they were captured on film as a still image.
And this is where I disagree with you. The simularities are only in the eye of the viewer who looks only at the surface.
To suggest that these images have no relevance to the current ME situation or that it is somehow an attack on the jewish nation is disingenuous at best.
All too often the cry of intolerance or anti-semitism is trundled out and ends up completely overtaking the original point; which is the same for governments all over the world. Refuting a political and ideological government policy is not racist or anti semitic, nor is it anti palestinian or anti islamic, just as the oposite of these is not pro-israeli, or pro-palestinian, or pro-islamic, despite what agitators would try and convince otherwise.
And I am happy that no one jumped here on the anti-semitic train, though anti-zionism is often just a cover up for the first. And the website where the image comes from is clearly anti-jewish and full of other ---- too.
It is true to say that the nazi state murdered many many jews as part of some gross ideology.
It is true to say that the state of israel has murdered many civilian palestinians, both by military means and economic sanctions to create a state separate and of its own, inviolate.
It is true to say that many palestinian and islamic extremists have murdered many israelis for reasons just as obscene as any nazi belief.
Not quite. The word murder intends a purpose. If it would be the purpose of Israel to wipe out the Palestinians they could do it easily.
So who is 'right' and 'just' in their actions and who is wrong and evil?
They all are. And it always depends on who you ask about whom.
And that's why we try to discuss here: to help building up an own opinion. I try to do so, in this particular case I have have tried to build my own opinions, even changed them over the years. To me, arguments from one side made more sense and were less propaganda, this doesn't mean that I stick to pre-fap opinions at all costs.
There's certainly no denying the fear and bloodshed of both sets of images - comparing them as a means to support an ideology is subtle and invidious, however.
And this was my point in the previous post. It plays down the crimes of the Nazis, describes the Israelis as bloodthirsty killers and victimizes the Palestinians.
Blood feuds, matters of right and wrong [....]
Sorry chaps, that got very bleak all of a sudden :dead:
One thing is sure, our reactions to such horrors often say a great deal more about each of us than we successfully articulate ourselves. Maybe that's where we fail so badly at understanding each other?
Sorry, would normally have quoted this for truth, however I had to cut it for readability sakes, this became a wall of text anyway.... :o
I don't think this was too bleak, the original images were so, and thus your deep thoughts you presented in the last paragraphs make a good closing stement! :up:
Matador.es
05-26-11, 05:49 AM
Its a pity, no comparison at all. Gutter "journalism".
One using force to overrule others
to be compared with
One using force to defand and not to be overruled by others.
This is todays remark of:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has warned against plots hatched by the United States to save Israel, urging world nations to remain vigilant.
---8220;The US seeks to save the Zionist regime (Israel) with deceit. Everybody should know that the survival of the Zionist regime and its existence even in one span of the Palestinian soil is like preserving a cancerous tumor in the body of regional nations, and [is] a permanent threat against them,---8221; said President Ahmadinejad in the Iranian city of Qom on Thursday.
He added that the Iranian people and world nations are awakened and demand justice, freedom and the complete elimination of Israel, IRNA reported.
The Iranian chief executive pointed to new plots of the US against the Palestinian people and its support for Israel and said, ---8220;Nations should choose officials who explicitly express their opposition to the presence of the US and Zionists in the region.---8221;
President Ahmadinejad warned regional countries against an escalation of the situation in the region, stressing, ---8220;They should be cautious not to jump out of the frying-pan into the fire.---8221;
Source: http://www.presstv.com/detail/181808.html
AngusJS
05-26-11, 07:07 PM
While the government of Israel has done (and does) many things that are stupid and wrong, none of them can be even remotely compared to the Holocaust.
I was positively shocked by the pictures, and I really don't have an opinion that i can express in words easily.
but this comparison is interesting though
The comparison is silly!! Any war would yield the same type of images.:-?
Sorry for the following brutal editing; I'll be working on a reply for hours and hours otherwise :oops:
I'll try and keep to what I see as pertinent - for the most part my exploration of the images and what they represent was as full as I can make it from my understanding and vision. That might be lacking for some of you (or perhaps not) - I think I share much of what you guys have to say, in one way or another - this does not alleviate my deep consternation regarding much of what transpires in the ME.
With all due respect, the vast majority of us were not decrying anti-semitism about this, merely that the comparison and portrayals being compared on this site are completely void of any semblance of context. Much of what is being shown are tricks of photography or taking images completely out of context.
EDIT
Now, I will readily admit that I am Jewish, and staunchly pro-Israel to boot. This is not to say that I think that the Israeli government is right 100% of the time. It's not. But I strongly disagree with any assertion that this is even a remotely fair or valid comparison.
It was not my intent to confuse the matter with the whole religious persecution thing. And I don't think you really take it as such.
I have to admit, I only viewed the link and discounted the rest of the site and it's other probable bias - putting my thoughts on the matter coherently was meandering enough already. Anyway, I stated in passing as such to mark the sometime response to issues like this one. Worth mentioning only for the sake of giving the OP some benefit of the doubt as to motivations in the discussion, and not particularly as a dig at any individual or anything like that; but it is a thing that seems sometimes so intimately connected with the subject of israel that it is often hard to avoid. The same can be said of the opposing palestinian viewpoint.
Both of which could fill more space than I'm prepared to accept right now.
Regarding the context; I tried to see the problem of how to define it - as it all depends on where you stand on the matter. I have no personal connection to it so is my objectivity better than yours? No. Just different. And that's the problem. The solution? Remove moral or regional bias (perhaps bias is to strong a word :hmmm: ). Taking the images at their face value, as alluded to in this thread already, would seem to be the most direct way to see through the diametric arguments.
In which case there is a strong similarity to the image comparison. Verisimilitude is a better word for it. And that's where I looked at the motivation to both interpretations (pro/anti israel/palestinian), either way of looking at it passes over the very real suffering shown in both, to the end that I found each to be misleading as a statement of an agenda. At least from my own perspective, such as it is.
The comparison is divisive from either end of the spectrum and therefore almost impossible to see on its own. I think this is the intent of the originator of the link; invidious it certainly is. But that was what I was trying to avoid.
As a direct response to you JSLTIGER, I see no reason why you should 'admit' to being jewish - I did find that an odd way to put it if I'm honest. I'm not criticising, it struck me more that you see it very differently, or with more weight than I. But there's no cause to 'admit' - the term for me carries some implication of guilt, where I certainly see none that is relevant here in this matter or anywhere else. I'm not sure I expressed that right or that I took it in the manner you intended.
Thank you very much for your opinion.
I agree to most what you said.
Violence is wrong killing is wrong its all wrong.
I'm all for live and let me live my life.
So now what?
Should i lite a joint and vote for my government to disband borders of my country.
Maybe should i turn my self into victim for your sympathy.
Stop blockade of Gaza dismantle checkpoint and pray for the best?
Join Middle East Union?
EDIT
I don't care much about settlements in west bank.
I dont care about Gaza.It has nice beaches though.
EDIT
That's why is hard to let go Palestinians on their own.
It may be an invitation to even bigger bloodshed in even greater continuation in delegitimizing Israel.
We must become "victims" to win sympathy if any?.
For me Israel is my country.
My family lives here and it really pisses me off that some philosophical smart asses think that have right to discuss my legitimacy of being here.
EDIT
We should return to be those poor helpless Jews?
I detect more than a little 'don't tread on me' in your opening sarcasm - you seem to expect an answer of some sort and yet you don't really ask a serious question?
I'll tell you that I have lived in the ME and so understand much of your view regarding the animosity and hostility of the arabs to the state of israel, more specifically jews. I didn't countenance it back then and I think you guess correctly that I still don't :)
It's my observation that most arabs don't understand it either, nor do some jews. It's just the way things are, like cats and dogs, if you'll forgive the analogy.
I think the trouble is as you say yourself - no-one cares about settlements or gaza and the fractious nature of what is going on there.
Both sides have a claim and a grievance, based on ancient religious texts that seemingly allows for very little common ground and what ground there is has little to offer in the way of compromise or egalitarian prospect.
Starving many ignorant people with a blockade and walls is a reaction to violence surely. But is it the right reaction? Israel holds the key to peace in the ME and as a state I guess it is no better or worse in its behaviour than my country's past and present actions. Bombing UN observers and using phosphorous shelling on heavily built up civilian areas is not a good thing; neither is telling people to leave if they don't want to be killed. That too, has many disturbing similarities with the past. The legitimisation of intent falls short of holding water with that one. Or to simplify: two wrongs don't make a right.
Does this mean I question your right to live there? No. I don't recall saying that. But it doesn't question theirs either, which I suspect is also part of the problem over there. If you dismiss another's interest in dialogue as philosophical chicanery, rendering it down to the statement that 'you think we don't belong here' that's a very sad thing to behold because it means you (I know this is what you said, but I'm speaking as a generalisation) no longer care for understanding what any one else thinks. Once again this is a real problem with both sides.
Asking if you should return to being those poor helpless jews, is a deeply loaded question. You know that pretty much any answer I give will most likely fail at communication. I think it is rhetorical and not absolute, so don't misunderstand if I dismiss it as such.
Reading back over this it seems I'm coming across as anti israeli perhaps.
I am not. I am anti violence though, because until that stops nothing will ever change. Accepting aggression or fighting back is a hard question, one I do not have to live with (not since school anyway hehe). So I don't pretend to have any answers for you there. It would be great if there was some panacea that would make everything groovy, but somebody has to start somewhere and to continue in the face of some of the most terrible adversity the world has to offer.
Again, I think we understand each other enough to cross words but not anything more serious and bear in mind I would have the same ideas to express to an arab, though he or she might hold similarly hard and unanswerable experience as yourself.
On the other hand, I get a sense of the same frustration and knowledge in the questions I ask as the response you made to begin with, if it is not overly presumptuous of me to infer.
If it didn't interest me I would not have the courtesy or the time to read and form a reply, though it may seem to you as a blind man grasping in the dark to understand the nature of what a shadow is when he has never seen light.
What seems commonplace over there looks very alien to me even though I have more exposure to some of it than most of my fellow countrymen. It is important you know I have a great fondness for the middle east with all its troubles and its incongruity. What might look to be criticism is a thought born out of a love of part of the region where I grew up - surely there has been enough hate and indifference by now? (so you see an idealism not yet killed off by solitude and pragmatism - I hope you do not think it too futile)
Yup, in this case I am one of those first shooters. It is a difference if someone posts a link from a newspaper article, or from a site made by imbeciles. And also in the case of the newspaper, I try to check the facts/sources.
As you stated, these images are pure propaganda, with a clear message and intention. There is no sitting on the fence, either you agree with the message, or not. If I post a hammer and sicle picture with the caption: "Stalin is the greatest leader" it is the same. Either I agree with it, or not. If I post it without further comment, it is fair to think that I stand behind this.
It would be another thing to post, e.g. a picture of an Israeli checkpoint with a crying Palestinian woman next to it in combination with an article that reports from one of these checkpoints. This could ;) start a balanced discussion.
EDIT
I highlighted the important
EDIT
A victim of the war nonetheless!
EDIT
And this is where I disagree with you. The simularities are only in the eye of the viewer who looks only at the surface.
EDIT
Not quite. The word murder intends a purpose. If it would be the purpose of Israel to wipe out the Palestinians they could do it easily.
And that's why we try to discuss here: to help building up an own opinion. I try to do so, in this particular case I have have tried to build my own opinions, even changed them over the years. To me, arguments from one side made more sense and were less propaganda, this doesn't mean that I stick to pre-fap opinions at all costs.
EDIT
Sorry, would normally have quoted this for truth, however I had to cut it for readability sakes, this became a wall of text anyway.... :o
I don't think this was too bleak, the original images were so, and thus your deep thoughts you presented in the last paragraphs make a good closing stement! :up:
My first impression of the OP did not inspect the quality of a belief as you took it - sitting on the fence or posting it as a message of intent? More the images themselves and my reaction to them.
As I said above somewhere, I tried to look at the images without the preconceptions to begin with.
To me that there is a body to even discuss raises a serious point: a means to an end and the result is a victim of conflict that has no pity or forbearance to those simply caught up in its momentum, unable to decide for themselves the way of things as we do here.
I must admit to finding it difficult to assimilate the purpose and the intent and the result of certain israeli government and military actions, in much the same way I find suicide bombers and the mind behind concepts like martyrdom hard to contemplate, so my use of the word murder. Sadly the result is the same for someone who will not have a chance to live and grow. It hardly appears to give any feeling toward the dead (whoever they may be) to look purely in semantics. But there is a certain dispassion to be gained here I suppose, after all that's where I began with all of this!
It is something I appreciate here: even in GT there is a balance of words that is conducive to being able to post conjecture and rationale without derision, even though it may be that I still have the same questions without clearly apparent answers... oh well :DL
But I have always tried to appreciate what others have to say even if I have not completely grasped their meaning (one can but try). Unfortunately many of my peers away from the screen in front of me have little interest in such discourse, choosing rather to focus on what they know and pay scant attention to what evolves elsewhere in the world, so there is little chance to exercise the mind openly.
Not that I find all of this a mere operation in abstracts. If I can attempt to understand it surely others more intimately connected will also?
I'm aware that I currently have a tendency to introspection and bleakness; a result of where I find myself in life at the moment. I've avoided comment in several threads, even gone as far as to write a post and then delete it without submitting it on a few occasions. A quality of self doubt perhaps.
What is most clear to me from looking at all the worlds problems is this surreal capacity for people to be so split by their, our nature, at once great and terrible, sometimes more terrible than I could have entertained in my own savagery. Yet history demonstrates the only trait that holds true to our continuation - our love of war and how our world is bound by it. Yes there are other things that are truly great, but only the really terrible speak through the ages with such encompassing clarity that we are still so good at it.
I think your wall of text is more concise than mine... :yep: by the time I got around to it further editing of text and response has kept me at it for more hours than I intended and to change it now will see me here until sunrise. So enough already. :zzz:
JSLTIGER
05-26-11, 11:17 PM
I have to admit, I only viewed the link and discounted the rest of the site and it's other probable bias - putting my thoughts on the matter coherently was meandering enough already. Anyway, I stated in passing as such to mark the sometime response to issues like this one. Worth mentioning only for the sake of giving the OP some benefit of the doubt as to motivations in the discussion, and not particularly as a dig at any individual or anything like that; but it is a thing that seems sometimes so intimately connected with the subject of israel that it is often hard to avoid. The same can be said of the opposing palestinian viewpoint.
. . .
Taking the images at their face value, as alluded to in this thread already, would seem to be the most direct way to see through the diametric arguments.
In which case there is a strong similarity to the image comparison. Verisimilitude is a better word for it. And that's where I looked at the motivation to both interpretations (pro/anti israel/palestinian), either way of looking at it passes over the very real suffering shown in both, to the end that I found each to be misleading as a statement of an agenda. At least from my own perspective, such as it is.
The comparison is divisive from either end of the spectrum and therefore almost impossible to see on its own. I think this is the intent of the originator of the link; invidious it certainly is. But that was what I was trying to avoid.
As a direct response to you JSLTIGER, I see no reason why you should 'admit' to being jewish - I did find that an odd way to put it if I'm honest. I'm not criticising, it struck me more that you see it very differently, or with more weight than I. But there's no cause to 'admit' - the term for me carries some implication of guilt, where I certainly see none that is relevant here in this matter or anywhere else. I'm not sure I expressed that right or that I took it in the manner you intended.
I'm going to work backwards here and start with a quick response to what you wrote last, first. The reason I used the word "admit" was not because I feel guilty in the slightest, but rather merely intended to convey an understanding of my own biases in my writings and viewpoint, especially in regards to this topic, where I find myself to be very close to the subject matter.
I understand how you can see similarities in the two sets of photos, because that is precisely the point that the site was attempting to get across. What I was trying to point out, however, is that I think that it is negligent to ignore the context in which these photos were taken and the motivations behind the selections of photos used for the comparison. There is an agenda behind the selection of each of the photos used for the comparison, and to ignore that seems a bit disingenuous to me. Additionally, the fact that several of these photos (the modern ones anyway) could clearly be the result of optical illusions on film should also be taken into account.
I suppose what I am saying is really that it is all about context, context, context. The problem with this site and the photographic comparison is that there is no context provided, and consequently imagery that looks similar likely has been distorted from very different realities.
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