At Least now we know where we messed up.

[CaptainMattJ.]

5 + 2 x 0 = ?


A series of these types of questions were asked on facebook to try and sample "general" population. Over 70% of voters chose 0. there were about 65,000 voters per poll and about 5 polls asking about Order of operations. 68% chose the WRONG answer. that ~221,000 people.

.........really?

Its 5th grade math. My 10 year old brother can tell me what the answer was. Order of operations says we multiply first (2 times 0) and then add, leaving you with 5

Another question, 8-2/2(3-2), over 80% chose 6.

And now we know where we screwed up by letting people slide under just barely without knowing basic mathematical concepts. Mathematics is used in a countless number of jobs, and the teaching of Logic that goes with math can be applied to every situation. And yet all these people cant do simple math that a normal 5th grader could. Sure, it may be only 5 questions but they honestly are overwhelmingly easy.


:nope:. The funny thing is, when i went on facebook and saw one of these, i saw many of my own friends having made the same mistake.


I do believe that some people made an honest mistake and thats ok. But 68% of such a giant sample should be enough to tell you theres something a little wrong with the education system eh?


Some food for thought...



Edit: Doh! wrong numbers! :doh:. i meant to put 8-2/2(3-2).

[Flaxpants]

Well, I'll be the first to show myself up-

What is the answer to 8-2(3-2)?

I would have been in the 80% myself, safety in numbers- that's how I like to think of it!

[Stealhead]

Wait I thought 8-2(3-2)=6

Order of operations PEMDAS

Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication and Division, and Addition and Subtraction


8-2(3-2)=

1. 3-2=1 P (no E)
2. 2x1=2 M (no D)
3. 8-2 =6 S (no A)
4. the answer is 6

http://www.mathsisfun.com/operation-order-pemdas.html

http://www.mathsisfun.com/algebra/operations-order-calculator.html

[Onkel Neal]

5 + 2 x 0 = ?


A series of these types of questions were asked on facebook to try and sample "general" population. Over 70% of voters chose 0. there were about 65,000 voters per poll and about 5 polls asking about Order of operations. 68% chose the WRONG answer. that ~221,000 people.

.........really?

Its 5th grade math. My 10 year old brother can tell me what the answer was. Order of operations says we multiply first (2 times 0) and then add, leaving you with 5

Another question, 8-2(3-2), over 80% chose 6.

And now we know where we screwed up by letting people slide under just barely without knowing basic mathematical concepts. Mathematics is used in a countless number of jobs, and the teaching of Logic that goes with math can be applied to every situation. And yet all these people cant do simple math that a normal 5th grader could. Sure, it may be only 5 questions but they honestly are overwhelmingly easy.


:nope:. The funny thing is, when i went on facebook and saw one of these, i saw many of my own friends having made the same mistake.


I do believe that some people made an honest mistake and thats ok. But 68% of such a giant sample should be enough to tell you theres something a little wrong with the education system eh?


Some food for thought...

I'll be the first to say I understand how people could get it wrong. Even though most people learn order of operations, my Dear Aunt Sally who need to be Excused, Please, most people do NOT use this type of math every day (or ever), so they forget it. I used to know my daughter's phone number. Now all I know is "a_VICKIE" :)

Besides, there is always a test that can have questions you don't know. Do you know who King James II's third son is?

[Flaxpants]

Wait I thought 8-2(3-2)=6

Order of operations PEMDAS

Parentheses, Exponents, Multiplication and Division, and Addition and Subtraction


8-2(1)=6(1)=6

1. 3-2=1 P (no E)
2. 2x1=2 M (no D)
3. 8-2 =6 S (no A)
4. the answer is 6


So I'm not a complete idiot- it is 6. The OP seemed to imply that 6 was the wrong answer though- maybe I need help with my Grammar as well....

[Stealhead]

I think he must have meant to type something besides 6.
If not then whoever made that test and answers is either wrong or they are trying to mess with peoples heads.

I agree with Neal many people dont not use this kind of math normally and would have to think about the answer if say a structural engineer got something like that wrong well that would be different.

In fact try it yourself 8-2(3-2) you can do it "wrong" and still get the correct answer in this case.

What to me is more thought provoking is that the people taking the test did not use the internet and all its wisdom to make sure that they got
every answer correct or at least to have looked up order of operations.

P.S. I am no math wiz myself I can't really do much of any in my head and as a kid my dad would not let me use
my hands to count so I'd count the lines on the paper or touch my fingers under the table where he could not see in
order to tabulate because in my head I just could not do it no matter how much my dad wanted me too and it almost
leveled me in high school until a teacher showed me a way to handle larger numbers with my finger tapping so I
I use my fingers like an abacus.

[Tribesman]

What to me is more thought provoking is that the people taking the test did not use the internet and all its wisdom to make sure that they got
every answer correct or at least to have looked up order of operations.
Do you expect people to cheat themselves?
After all looking up the answers to take a "test" where you are only testing yourself is only conning yourself.

a teacher showed me a way to handle larger numbers with my finger tapping so I I use my fingers like an abacus.

Is that working by the dozen?

[Flaxpants]

Eddie Van Halen invented Finger Tapping by the way.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Then again, Order of operations in math teaching isnt JUST about math. like almost all math concepts, the LOGIC behind the skill stresses the importance of following specific orders. Math isnt just Math; Logic is the second half of what they try to teach you.


And I do agree with Tribesman in the sense that why answer the question if your unsure of the answer? There were a pretty large majority of TEENS participating, meaning that the bias of most grownups forget over half of their school concepts is limited in this study.

They teach you so many concepts that you tend to forget them depending on your current job. They teach you so many concepts because educating the public is critical to a modern society.

Math and English/language are the 2 most important studies. Math and logic teaches you how to critically assess and apply knowledge to different situations and solve it. English/language is important because communicating with others is key to success.

So if you must retain some knowledge of school it should be Math, then your language and then science.


But if you really think about it, all knowledge is useful. Its useful to know how the romans prospered with the equipment at hand so you may use it one day to survive off the land primitively if needed, or how warriors healed themselves with herbs or readily available items, all coming from history, and its VERY useful to know how to tourniquet yourself in biology science, And in unlikely situations, say being trapped for instance, how to use lever mechanics and gravity/force to free yourself and/or do other things.



Anyway, im rambling. the point is that since mostly teens participated that we should step up our game trying to teach them. But, i see the problem with that too. Many kids are ignorant to the fact that doing well in High school and College means your setting yourself up to coast on your rich success (whatever that may be) in your career for the rest of your life, and instead choose to slack off and fail and learn nothing. Hence why theres an EXTREMELY alarming number of students achieving below 50% of the CST (in california, its the Standard state testing for K-12 besides the SAT), and below basic on the SAT.

[Stealhead]

Do you expect people to cheat themselves?
After all looking up the answers to take a "test" where you are only testing yourself is only conning yourself.



Is that working by the dozen?


Well it is only a social network test it is not as if it is the SATs.I'm saying a smart person would if they had doubt check some place how to do a basic algebra problem before they take a test.

And the other was my way to be able to complete math problems in high school if you want to mock that fine with me I adapted to get the problems done and I did better on the state test you had to pass at the time to get your HS diploma which had no overly complex math yet kids that where in advanced placement Calculus classes failed it the first time:hmmm: I with my "counting by the dozens" got one the highest scores in the school system .I work as a refrigeration tech so I only need to know basic math to to my job so I'm good to go and I did the 8-2(3-2) on my own then I checked it though I was 99% sure I was right.:salute:


The problem is that even a very high IQ person cant know everything the brain just cant master things like that but you can be educated enough to "not be an idiot" I suppose.The situation that you are in determines what skills you will need to have.If you are in the middle of an Alaskan forest order or operations of an algebra problem wont help you much but being able to tie knots,make a fire with steel wool and a 9 volt battery will and that has nothing to do with an algebra problem you could be illiterate and do those things.You need to know the skills required to be able to do what ever job it is that you perform.

In my opinion those who slack off they only screw themselves and not everyone is going to be a winner if they lack the motivation to learn when someone is trying to educate them well too bad.I recall several years ago when I was going to school for HVAC/R with my GI Bill I noticed that some classmates where like myself and went to class everyday and on time and we did the lab and book work during the day.Some guys just screwed off all day and did nothing at all and just crammed for the various tests.At the end of the course those guys could barely understand the concept of superheat and sub cooling which is fairly easy once you calculate over and over it is second nature.I doubt that those guys even got good jobs because as soon as the boss asked them in an interview, "How do you calculate superheat?" the slackers would not have been able to provide an answer right away.

To me those who put forth get the reward those who do not get nothing and I dont think that you can instill in every person the desire to achieve just look at basic training the instructors are hard but they also motivate you to push though but still some people fail.

[August]

It's been 41 years since I was in the 5th grade. Plenty of time to forget stuff like that! :DL

[Platapus]

5 + 2 x 0 = ?




It's been 41 years since I was in the 5th grade. Plenty of time to forget stuff like that! :DL

Back then, did they even have the number 5?

<ducking>

:D

[August]

Back then, did they even have the number 5?

<ducking>

:D

We called it V :yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Then again, Order of operations...isnt...like...isnt...i...tribesman... your...

Math and English/languages are the 2 most important studies because math is used everyday and the logic teaches you how to critically assess and apply knowledge do different situations to solve it, and English/languages because communicating with others is key to success.
:rotfl2:

Pointing out others' failure to solve problems and then lecturing on the state of education is fine, but for one problem. I failed both of those questions. The second was my own fault, but the first was not really clear. Actually now that I see the corrected version I think I would have come up with 3.

On the other hand, while you're lecturing and complaining, and saying that language skills are important, your own writing skills seem to be just this side of atrocious. Perhaps your complaint was legitimate, but it seemed just a little condescending to me, hence my reaction. Sorry if I got it wrong.

[Pisces]

Back then, did they even have the number 5?

<ducking>

:D

We called it V :yep:Back in the time of Emperor Augustus they didn't even have 0. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_(number)

I don't blame the kids todays for not being able to solve basic arithmetic. I've seen homework assignments (with corrections by the teacher) of my younger cousins (in the Netherlands) where they were taught to disregard the order of operation rules. The additions and multiplication had to be carried out one after the other as they were printed in the formula. :o I don't know what the teacher and the schoolbook writer was smoking.

[Howard313]

I would've guessed 0 as well on the first one, but math was never my strong point. Pocket calculators FTW! :yeah:

[Tribesman]

And the other was my way to be able to complete math problems in high school if you want to mock that fine with me
Mock???????
It was a question, look at your hand and see the basis for working by the dozen in your fingers. If you was taught a different method fine, you maybe just now learnt about another.

[AngusJS]

5 + 2 x 0 = ?


A series of these types of questions were asked on facebook to try and sample "general" population. Over 70% of voters chose 0. there were about 65,000 voters per poll and about 5 polls asking about Order of operations. 68% chose the WRONG answer. that ~221,000 people.

.........really?

Its 5th grade math. My 10 year old brother can tell me what the answer was. Order of operations says we multiply first (2 times 0) and then add, leaving you with 5I learnt that stuff, but have since forgotten it, as it's been decades since my last math class, and I don't use that kind of math at all.

doing well in High school and College means your setting yourself up to coast on your rich success in your career for the rest of your life:har:

[DarkFish]

8-2(3-2)=

1. 3-2=1 P (no E)
2. 2x1=2 M (no D)
3. 8-2 =6 S (no A)
4. the answer is 6
So I'm not a complete idiot- it is 6. The OP seemed to imply that 6 was the wrong answer though- maybe I need help with my Grammar as well....No, Stealhead made a mistake in copying it. He may pass his math exam, but if he can't even copy a text without errors, he sure fails on English;)

The actual operation is 8-2/2(3-2). So:
1. 3-2=1 P (no E)
2. 2x1=2 M
3. 2/2=1 D
4. 8-1 =7 S (no A)
5. the answer is 7
:know:

[Platapus]

From a practical standpoint, how many of us need to divide by zero for anything?

I honestly can't remember the last time when I was working practical math (building something, doing a budget, ect) that I needed to divide by zero.

Can anyone?

[Stealhead]

No, Stealhead made a mistake in copying it. He may pass his math exam, but if he can't even copy a text without errors, he sure fails on English;)

The actual operation is 8-2/2(3-2). So:
1. 3-2=1 P (no E)
2. 2x1=2 M
3. 2/2=1 D
4. 8-1 =7 S (no A)
5. the answer is 7
:know:


Yeah it was pretty late at night when I did that so shoot me:O:

And that would not be English or rather grammar that would be computer skills.

And Tribesman you are actually rather entertaining to be honest.You know that an abacus can be used to represent any amount so why ask "by the dozen"?:cool: Just sayin or
maybe you did not know that.

@Platapus Nope

[GoldenRivet]

Order of operations and 5th grade math is cute and all.

even college level mathematics are absolutely adorable.

but the reality of it is - most people only use very basic math in every day life and thus it holds little relevance.

even flying high speed jets from coast to coast mathematics problems never got more complicated than basic multiplication or division - and order of operations simply never came into play even doing that.

its another stupid facebook thing.

its a dumb question meant to make folks think about things they havnt thought about in years... decades for some.

its like the old pointing into the sky and saying "look at the dead bird!"

or the "you have a hole 3 feet by 4 feet by 6 feet, how much dirt is in the hole?" i have asked that question to highly experienced engineers and college algebra professors and they all calculated it out to some sort of number but then i sprung the "There isn't any dirt in the hole" answer and they all slapped their foreheads.

it doesnt make them stupid... it just shows that the brain is often made to think in a certain way.

[Sailor Steve]

Well, while i would agree with you, i often do mistype and hurry out my sentences when i sneak a little subsim here and there at work.
I understand, and I apologize if I was overly harsh. The simple truth is my math skills are practically nonexistent, and I felt a little like you were talking down to all of us, so I retaliated as best I could. And you gave me a great opening. :sunny:

[CaptainMattJ.]

:rotfl2:

Pointing out others' failure to solve problems and then lecturing on the state of education is fine, but for one problem. I failed both of those questions. The second was my own fault, but the first was not really clear. Actually now that I see the corrected version I think I would have come up with 3.

On the other hand, while you're lecturing and complaining, and saying that language skills are important, your own writing skills seem to be just this side of atrocious. Perhaps your complaint was legitimate, but it seemed just a little condescending to me, hence my reaction. Sorry if I got it wrong.
Well, i was finishing up at work when i typed this, and i do admit i rushed out the paragraphs. I sneak a little subsim here and there at work. Ive revised the paragraph a bit more. I also mistype often, so there were many general errors i had to correct when i first typed it :).

Im sorry if you thought that i was insulting you or being condescending. I was more concerned about the teens, who should know this stuff (and pretty recently actually, as Order of Operations is used often in Algebra), not about grown men who have no use for this math and would most likely forget it anyways. No one remembers everything, and its perfectly alright if you did.

But teens should certainly know it. Even if they never use it either. it corresponds to other parts of algebra.

[Stealhead]

So if most grown men do not have much use for such math in various lines of work why should teens have to know it seeing as they very likely are not going to use it hardly ever? Should ones basic education not be the things that are most vital and most likely to be used often and therefore a useful skill?Most learn this in math in 5th or so grade and you do use it some later in school depending on if you are prepping to go to college or not.Besides according to your profile you are in the same generation as these teens you are so harsh on correct? You do not have enough experience your self in working life to develop an fair opinion on what skills taught in school are useful and what ones are not.As a SSgt. in the USAF I saw quite a few 17,18 year old airmen who where really good in math but they where not so good at following "order of operations" when it did not involve a math problem it was us NCOs that taught them real world problem solving.

You seem to be very disturbed over some silly test taken by a bunch of teenagers on Facebook(yeah a very serious place indeed) and likely did not really care what score they got anyway.And you speak about how poorly teens do on various state tests.You do realize that schools simply end up "teaching the test" and ignoring largely useful skills that are not on it.

MY mother was a teacher for 35 years and in her last 6 or 7 years is when they started "teaching the test" and what they do is place all the smart kids in one school so it gets a high score and all the "dumb" kids to a ----ty school and they learn nothing and basically are given up on.As a result the kids whose parents have the money to pay to have their kids tutored(if they even go to a public school) and the kids whose parents lack the money to pay for tutors end up doing worse.Making matters even less fair in Florida private school students do not have to take the state test at all so these lucky students get the luxury of actually learning all year unlike the public school kids who get taught the test for 3 or 4 months of the year.Most teens are not that stupid and realize what is going on so it is no wonder they dont give a ---- in some cases why should they when they can see that they more or less getting answers drilled into their heads and are not really learning anything beyond the answers to the state test.

[CaptainMattJ.]

So if most grown men do not have much use for such math in various lines of work why should teens have to know it seeing as they very likely are not going to use it hardly ever? Should ones basic education not be the things that are most vital and most likely to be used often and therefore a useful skill?Most learn this in math in 5th or so grade and you do use it some later in school depending on if you are prepping to go to college or not.Besides according to your profile you are in the same generation as these teens you are so harsh on correct? You do not have enough experience your self in working life to develop an fair opinion on what skills taught in school are useful and what ones are not.As a SSgt. in the USAF I saw quite a few 17,18 year old airmen who where really good in math but they where not so good at following "order of operations" when it did not involve a math problem it was us NCOs that taught them real world problem solving.

You seem to be very disturbed over some silly test taken by a bunch of teenagers on Facebook(yeah a very serious place indeed) and likely did not really care what score they got anyway.And you speak about how poorly teens do on various state tests.You do realize that schools simply end up "teaching the test" and ignoring largely useful skills that are not on it.

MY mother was a teacher for 35 years and in her last 6 or 7 years is when they started "teaching the test" and what they do is place all the smart kids in one school so it gets a high score and all the "dumb" kids to a ----ty school and they learn nothing and basically are given up on.As a result the kids whose parents have the money to pay to have their kids tutored(if they even go to a public school) and the kids whose parents lack the money to pay for tutors end up doing worse.Making matters even less fair in Florida private school students do not have to take the state test at all so these lucky students get the luxury of actually learning all year unlike the public school kids who get taught the test for 3 or 4 months of the year.Most teens are not that stupid and realize what is going on so it is no wonder they dont give a ---- in some cases why should they when they can see that they more or less getting answers drilled into their heads and are not really learning anything beyond the answers to the state test.

Not quite. algebra 1 uses a LOT of order of operations. Order of Operations isnt used in most careers. But Algebra concepts are used all the time. Like graphing, Creating equations out of real world information, or solving things similar to "if $x amount was earned at the school dance, and they sold x number of tickets, Y tickets costing 5$ and Z tickets costing 3$, how many of each ticket is sold."

First of all, they did a number of different basic concepts tests, most of which were failed by the teens taking it, NOT just Order of Operations.

Second, why shelter the teens? I was a High schooler not even that long ago. I didnt work my ars off or do all my homework neatly and perfectly. I was the average kid. but you know what i saw? I saw teachers who taught on deaf ears. Nobody cared at all whether they flunked, or ditched or got suspended or ANYTHING. They made those choices. I got my diploma and they either got held back or had to take zero period early in the morning, summer school, night school, and after school lessons.

They were lazy and honestly didnt give a DAM. Im lazy too. i still did what was required of me. They put the blame on the teachers and staff and books for the teens not learning what they should, when in reality parents dont realize that it USUALLY (there are definitely some terrible teachers out there) up to their children whether they learn or not.


Order of Operations is very simple to learn. Teens who willingly took the survey obviously thought they were right, or they wouldnt've taken it. This "stupid survey on facebook" isnt the only place kids are failing. Grades are dropping and we need to start doing something about it.

And yet this is coming from someone who isnt some nerdy bookworm. Im an average, still young, guy that thinks that this is ridiculous.

I never went the extra mile in school. I procrastinated a hell of a lot, too. But i understood why its important to learn so much. We learn it because thats what Modern society uses. we may not use it as a USAF Staff Sergeant. We may not use it as a supervisor at a buisness. But things like Order of Operations along with other things leads to the use of equations which can and are used by millions of people every day. k-12 is general education so that when you select a career you wont have to spend 8 years in college learning all the processes you need to work in your field.

So, excuse me for my concern and my wall of text needed to show you what we should be concerned about. Its not JUST order of operations that i was trying to point out here. Its the education system itself.

[Tribesman]

And Tribesman you are actually rather entertaining to be honest.You know that an abacus can be used to represent any amount so why ask "by the dozen"?:cool: Just sayin or
maybe you did not know that.


So you don't understand the basics of numbers and fingers then, I suppose you never realised the simple reason for people working in base 12 stretching back through rome to mesopotamia, amazing that is. You certainly are being mocked now where you wasn't before:yep:
Still maybe you are disfigured and havn't got fingers made like other peoples:rotfl2:

[razark]

Exactly what is considered "basic math"? I would consider order of operations to be part of basic math, but my definition seems to be a bit off form other people's.

[magic452]

Math teaches you how to solve problems by a systematic logical process.
That systematic process can then be applied to all other problems math or not. You learn to ask questions like, what is I'm trying to do and how best to do it?

I've done a lot of hiring and firing in my time and it's amassing how many people can't ask those types of questions, let alone come up with answers.

Magic

[Stealhead]

So you don't understand the basics of numbers and fingers then, I suppose you never realised the simple reason for people working in base 12 stretching back through rome to mesopotamia, amazing that is. You certainly are being mocked now where you wasn't before:yep:
Still maybe you are disfigured and havn't got fingers made like other peoples:rotfl2:


Wow my friend you must have a very low self esteem indeed so you think that I am disfigured? Can you not read? How can I have served in the military if I had disfigured fingers?And you are trying to say how stupid I am when you don't even bother to capitalize Rome or Mesopotamia.Rule of thumb when trying to appear more intelligent than another person make sure that you use proper grammar or at least try to when the topic of conversation is education.:yeah: It is funny that you call your self tribesman if you where a member of a real tribe and you displayed the same attitude that you tend to on subsim then that tribe would banish you.

You are clearly the type of person who joins forums for no other reason than to troll them and attempt to bug other people(I have seen your posts and it seems that many feel this way about you) You also completely fell for my bait by the way, nice trip :03: So mock me all you want I'm not bothered I spent years in the military getting ragged on and ragging on others all the time of course in good humor which would not be what you are attempting and utterly failing to do to me it hurts me none but it does make me laugh that you get a rise trying to mess with people over the internet and shows the kind of person you are.By the way I have a good buddy that got his fingers disfigured while disarming an IED in Iraq would you like to laugh in his face in person? If so I can arrange it.(I can not guarantee what his reaction will be though)

@ MattJ you are not reading my posts very well I never said that Algebra did not use order of operations of course it does.I was referring to order of operations in completing a task like say performing a phase inspection on a piece of equipment which knowing the order of operations of an Algebra problem is not going to teach you. You are also making yourself look like a hypocrite you used dam(what beavers like to make) in place of damn and you are making lots of grammar mistakes in your posts in a thread in which you have stated that math and grammar are important yet you are not displaying proper grammar yourself there is no excuse for this if you truly where concerned about using proper grammar then you would have the attention to detail to proof read your posts to be sure that you made no mistakes but you do not which displays to me by your actions that you don't really care that much about using proper grammar though you expect others to have a good grasp of it or that you do not have a the best grammar skills yourself. I am not trying to be harsh on you but I myself am a man of my word if I claim to be something then I dedicate my self to it and I would never expect one group to have a certain standard and then not display that standard myself.

Personally in my experience must disagree that Algebra is the only thing that can teach a person problem solving sure math is useful if you are trying to figure something number related.I can see that is turning into a math lover vs. math haters debate.

Personally I dislike math(more advanced forms) so I only use them when I need to which is very rarely in my case.Folks that really enjoy math like the analytic side of it and tend to assume that one can only be analytical by using math which is not true from the stand point of having to perform a mathematical equation to be able to analyze the given situation.

For example say you are a young single man and you have two nice looking young ladies at the bar one is blond the other is a redhead now lets say that you prefer redheads to blondes but you also like large "balloons" and the redhead is lacking in the "balloons" department but that blond happens to have very large "balloons" you can only pick one girl so now you must analyze your options and that analysis will require no math at all.

Now that was just for fun but there are many real world daily working situations that require no mathematical analysis to solve.

@magic and I bet that some of those people could take a test and get every algebra problem on it correct but still they cant come up with an effective
way to solve problems given to them.You seem to assume(by your wording) that they fail to do so because of lack of understanding math but unless you
gave them a test to know what their mathematical ability was you can not know why they fail to solve problems effectively.At one point in human history
we did not have any math beyond basic counting perhaps and we managed to get where we are today that proves that the human mind must have developed
a way of analyzing problems without algebra or any form of math.

[CaptainMattJ.]

Wow my friend you must have a very low self esteem indeed so you think that I am disfigured? Can you not read? How can I have served in the military if I had disfigured fingers?And you are trying to say how stupid I am when you don't even bother to capitalize Rome or Mesopotamia.Rule of thumb when trying to appear more intelligent than another person make sure that you use proper grammar or at least try to when the topic of conversation is education.:yeah: It is funny that you call your self tribesman if you where a member of a real tribe and you displayed the same attitude that you tend to on subsim then that tribe would banish you.

You are clearly the type of person who joins forums for no other reason than to troll them and attempt to bug other people(I have seen your posts and it seems that many feel this way about you) You also completely fell for my bait by the way, nice trip :03: So mock me all you want I'm not bothered I spent years in the military getting ragged on and ragging on others all the time of course in good humor which would not be what you are attempting and utterly failing to do to me it hurts me none but it does make me laugh that you get a rise trying to mess with people over the internet and shows the kind of person you are.By the way I have a good buddy that got his fingers disfigured while disarming an IED in Iraq would you like to laugh in his face in person? If so I can arrange it.(I can not guarantee what his reaction will be though)

@ MattJ you are not reading my posts very well I never said that Algebra did not use order of operations of course it does.I was referring to order of operations in completing a task like say performing a phase inspection on a piece of equipment which knowing the order of operations of an Algebra problem is not going to teach you. You are also making yourself look like a hypocrite you used dam(what beavers like to make) in place of damn and you are making lots of grammar mistakes in your posts in a thread in which you have stated that math and grammar are important yet you are not displaying proper grammar yourself there is no excuse for this if you truly where concerned about using proper grammar then you would have the attention to detail to proof read your posts to be sure that you made no mistakes but you do not which displays to me by your actions that you don't really care that much about using proper grammar though you expect others to have a good grasp of it or that you do not have a the best grammar skills yourself. I am not trying to be harsh on you but I myself am a man of my word if I claim to be something then I dedicate my self to it and I would never expect one group to have a certain standard and then not display that standard myself.

Personally in my experience must disagree that Algebra is the only thing that can teach a person problem solving sure math is useful if you are trying to figure something number related.I can see that is turning into a math lover vs. math haters debate.

Personally I dislike math(more advanced forms) so I only use them when I need to which is very rarely in my case.Folks that really enjoy math like the analytic side of it and tend to assume that one can only be analytical by using math which is not true from the stand point of having to perform a mathematical equation to be able to analyze the given situation.

For example say you are a young single man and you have two nice looking young ladies at the bar one is blond the other is a redhead now lets say that you prefer redheads to blondes but you also like large "balloons" and the redhead is lacking in the "balloons" department but that blond happens to have very large "balloons" you can only pick one girl so now you must analyze your options and that analysis will require no math at all.

Now that was just for fun but there are many real world daily working situations that require no mathematical analysis to solve.

@magic and I bet that some of those people could take a test and get every algebra problem on it correct but still they cant come up with an effective
way to solve problems given to them.You seem to assume(by your wording) that they fail to do so because of lack of understanding math but unless you
gave them a test to know what there mathematical ability was you can not know why they fail to solve problems effectively.At one point in human history
we did not have any math beyond basic counting perhaps and we managed to get where we are today that proves that the human mind must have developed
a way of analyzing problems without algebra or any form of math.
Well, while we are correcting each other i can say that your sentences are all run-ons and hard to read because it keeps going. My posts may have common mistakes, but like i said, im a lazy guy unfortunately.I procrastinate, but when it gets serious, such as a paper or work, i get it done. i often dont add apostrophes in my conjunctions when i type on the internet. but just because i mistype and dont proofread often enough doesnt mean im undereducated and bad at English. Right now im living my life on full throttle with little time to spare. so when i write those huge paragraphs i dont often have much time to critically reread it to correct minor errors.

this isnt really an English paper im writing. i was just saying how, while the average joe doesnt use alot of math in his life, there are still many jobs that require algebra and/or specific concepts. Construction workers require algebra and geometry to function. Algebra is REQUIRED for geometry. Bankers, businessmen, and Tax agents use algebra to graph and solve budget problems. Buisness is a HUGE, thriving major today.

The thing is: Math CAN be applied to everything. Do we? absolutely not. But there are a large number of popular career choices that involve algebra and general math on an everyday basis.

Teachers teach one lesson at a time. You dont understand how learning this is useful in life, until the end of the year when all those individual lessons come together and allow you to solve big complex problems.


Hell, i recall a 3 day project where this giant math problem illustrates how a club wants to develop a rocket that will fly into a pond while firing over several spaced out buildings. They need to how much money its going to cost, how much fuel they need, how much money they are going to need to raise to fund the project, what angle to fire it at and how long it will take it to get there.

That problem uses almost all Algebra and basic geometry concepts to illustrate a very real situation.

Algebra may not be used in everyone's life. But since you dont know WHAT your going to be when you start kindergarten,and often dont know until your high school years, they cant focus on specific subjects in Math and Science. They have to teach you broad spectrum. Besides, learning new things is NEVER bad for you. All it means is that yuo know a little extra about how the world works.

[Stealhead]

How can you be a lazy guy and also be living your life at full throttle at the same time? That seems like a contradiction in terms.:hmmm:

You mention in your past posts all about achieving things and becoming rich you don't get that way by being lazy.All you do is give excuses as to why you don't do something or what jobs use math as though I did not know.

You have yet to show any real world problem that uses math all you have mentioned are math problems that you worked out in school.

Solve this problem:
You are in the middle of a lake in a canoe in the wilderness that has suddenly begun to leak all you have is an oar and a backpack with a tackle box a knife some MREs and some matches inside it.In the canoe you also have a sleeping bag and a fishing rod and reel.You also have a compass in your pocket.The leak is rapid enough that it is clear that the canoe will sink before you can get near any shore.

[CaptainMattJ.]

How can you be a lazy guy and also be living your life at full throttle at the same time? That seems like a contradiction in terms.:hmmm:

You mention in your past posts all about achieving things and becoming rich you don't get that way by being lazy.All you do is give excuses as to why you don't do something or what jobs use math as though I did not know.

You have yet to show any real world problem that uses math all you have mentioned are math problems that you worked out in school.

Solve this problem:
You are in the middle of a lake in a canoe in the wilderness that has suddenly begun to leak all you have is an oar and a backpack with a tackle box a knife some MREs and some matches inside it.In the canoe you also have a sleeping bag and a fishing rod and reel.You also have a compass in your pocket.The leak is rapid enough that it is clear that the canoe will sink before you can get near any shore.
Im lazy, but i get stuff done. I do whats required of me. Then i sit back and relax or do whatever i want. im Full throttle right now because ive had almost no time to sit back and relax. I got 3 Finals, We have a huge order due by wednesday at work, and between them both i havent found much time for anything other then sleep.


Your situation is all circumstantial. The lake could be enourmous, but the leak rather minor, but big enough to sink the boat before you get ashore, or the lake could be smaller but have a big leak.

In either case, i would try to plug up the hole. Depending on the size of the hole. I would use the sleeping bag. Then row as fast as possible to shore. If the leak was bad enough id shovel water out with the tackle box.

That may be a real world problem, but thats not what i was talking about. This thread isnt about schools teaching basic survival skills, its about teaching what they teach more effectively.

i dont know how you tried to change the subject from MATH to survival in the wilderness. i was talking about how Math is applied to jobs.

Math can be applied here too, but im not going to speculate. Math isnt going to save your ass in the wilderness, out on a lake in a sinking boat, but thankfully you and I dont live in the wilderness eating MREs.

But i still know how to survive in the wilderness. My dad, being the extremist backpacker,camper,climber that he was back in the day, he taught me a couple things about survival.

[Stealhead]

I gave you that problem because you said that any thing can be solved with math.And I said in the problem that the canoe is clearly going to sink before you get to any shore.You failed to read the last sentence of the problem.Math should tech you attention to detail but you must not practice it enough because you did not analyze the given data well.


Now you say that you are only talking about work problems and are including all forms of math even basic If you read my earlier posts I typed that I use basic arithmetic most every day
at work and I also use weights and measures most everyday as well but not much of any Algebra.

Also others and myself never said that all math is rarely used in many jobs but higher level math which uses basic Algebra in it but most people do not no it or they no how to figure out the type of problems that they deal with everyday(I know lots of construction guys like this) but they may be weak on a similar form of math that is outside the problem format that they use normally.

Sometimes I am in the wilderness eating MREs or other foods when I am camping or hunting.

I will say this to you CaptainMattJ; If you are like me and most men at the same age you are now I thought I pretty well knew everything by the time I was a few years older and got some hard work under my belt and got married and saw my daughter born I realized that I did not really know as much about the world as I thought did.You seem to have confidence which is not a bad thing but you do not yet have wisdom you will see what I mean in a few years time trust me.

I am not trying to say that I know all myself either anyone who would claim such a thing is a fool no doubt.

[Sailor Steve]

I am not trying to say that I know all myself either anyone who would claim such a thing is a fool no doubt.
The more I learn, the less I know. :sunny:

[Tribesman]

Wow my friend you must have a very low self esteem indeed so you think that I am disfigured
You are the one with low self esteem as was demonstrated by you thinking you were being mocked for counting on your fingers.
Can you not read?
Obviously I can read better than you are able to think as you are demonstrating now.
How can I have served in the military if I had disfigured fingers?
Ah, so you do have fingers like other people, you just can't see or feel then.
And you are trying to say how stupid I am when you don't even bother to capitalize Rome or Mesopotamia.Rule of thumb when trying to appear more intelligent than another person make sure that you use proper grammar or at least try to when the topic of conversation is education.
:har::har::har::har::har::har:
As Steve said......

It is funny that you call your self tribesman if you where a member of a real tribe and you displayed the same attitude that you tend to on subsim then that tribe would banish you.

wow thats clever:rotfl2:what a demonstration of your ignorance

You are clearly the type of person who joins forums for no other reason than to troll them and attempt to bug other people
Such a great mind and clarity of vision you have:rotfl2:

I have seen your posts and it seems that many feel this way about you

Ah, so you are one of those too:88)
Once you have worked out the origins of the dozen can you get on and begin explaining to Aramike the meaning of the word "context"
.
So mock me all you want I'm not bothered I spent years in the military getting ragged on and ragging on others all the time of course in good humor which would not be what you are attempting and utterly failing to do to me it hurts me none but it does make me laugh that you get a rise trying to mess with people over the internet and shows the kind of person you are.
It is so funny that no one was mocking you until your hang ups made you get all defensive and start ranting about imaginary slights.

.By the way I have a good buddy that got his fingers disfigured while disarming an IED in Iraq would you like to laugh in his face in person?
Wow, you are really wierd, have you ever thought of visiting the real world?
Or did you perhaps get a nasty bang on the head in the military in which case you have my sympathy?

BTW...
You also completely fell for my bait by the way, nice trip
you just said you are simply a troll:yep:

[CaptainMattJ.]

I gave you that problem because you said that any thing can be solved with math.And I said in the problem that the canoe is clearly going to sink before you get to any shore.You failed to read the last sentence of the problem.Math should tech you attention to detail but you must not practice it enough because you did not analyze the given data well.


Now you say that you are only talking about work problems and are including all forms of math even basic If you read my earlier posts I typed that I use basic arithmetic most every day
at work and I also use weights and measures most everyday as well but not much of any Algebra.

Also others and myself never said that all math is rarely used in many jobs but higher level math which uses basic Algebra in it but most people do not no it or they no how to figure out the type of problems that they deal with everyday(I know lots of construction guys like this) but they may be weak on a similar form of math that is outside the problem format that they use normally.

Sometimes I am in the wilderness eating MREs or other foods when I am camping or hunting.

I will say this to you CaptainMattJ; If you are like me and most men at the same age you are now I thought I pretty well knew everything by the time I was a few years older and got some hard work under my belt and got married and saw my daughter born I realized that I did not really know as much about the world as I thought did.You seem to have confidence which is not a bad thing but you do not yet have wisdom you will see what I mean in a few years time trust me.

I am not trying to say that I know all myself either anyone who would claim such a thing is a fool no doubt.
i said Math can be APPLIED to everything. NEVER did i say it could SOLVE everything.

And, by the way, most higher level math is based on algebra. Algebra is a stepping stone to higher math. Algebra is also the most commonly used math besides basic arithmetic. the logic behind graphing along with physics is how ALL of our high tech artillery systems can put a a round through that critical enemy structure thats keeping your men pinned down. Because Longitude and Latitude is all a graph. Without algebra, Artillery and mortars wouldnt exist to provide critical fire support. without Algebra and all its systematically tied Math and Science branches, wed be in the dark ages and you wouldnt be sitting at your computer, typing a rebuttal.

Neither would modernized Naval warfare. We'd still be sailing with broadside cannons in galleons. Algebra and the math and sciences its based on have shaped the world around us.

THATS why teens are supposed to KNOW this stuff. Thats why our fighting men and women have been saved time and again by artillery and fire support. In today's battlefield, that is about as REAL as it gets.

Algebra and/or its concepts, whether you realize it or not, directly or indirectly, is used everyday by BILLIONS. And you question why we need to learn it....

[Sailor Steve]

iAnd, by the way, most higher level math is based on algebra. Algebra is a stepping stone to higher math. Algebra is also the most commonly used math besides basic arithmetic.
That explains a lot. I excelled at geometry, failed completely at algegbra.

the logic behind graphing along with physics is how ALL of our high tech artillery systems can put a a round through that critical enemy structure thats keeping your men pinned down.
And now for the real world. I'm not saying you're wrong, because you're not. That said, after all that hi-falutin' math science has been done and calulated, every single artillery barrage ends up with a spotter saying "Up a little, left a little." :rotfl2:

Neither would modernized Naval warfare. We'd still be sailing with broadside cannons in galleons. Algebra and the math and sciences its based on have shaped the world around us.
Also true, but again after doing all his calculations and having the latest, greatest fire-control computers back him up, the FCO still looks through his spotting periscope and decides "Hmm. Looks about two hundred yards short", and corrects on his Mk-1 eyeball. Naval artillery has been described as the most imprecise of all military sciences, since the target's actual speed and course can still only be guessed at by the guy doing the spotting.

[CaptainMattJ.]

That explains a lot. I excelled at geometry, failed completely at algegbra.


And now for the real world. I'm not saying you're wrong, because you're not. That said, after all that hi-falutin' math science has been done and calulated, every single artillery barrage ends up with a spotter saying "Up a little, left a little." :rotfl2:


Also true, but again after doing all his calculations and having the latest, greatest fire-control computers back him up, the FCO still looks through his spotting periscope and decides "Hmm. Looks about two hundred yards short", and corrects on his Mk-1 eyeball. Naval artillery has been described as the most imprecise of all military sciences, since the target's actual speed and course can still only be guessed at by the guy doing the spotting.
That was back in WW2, of course.

Todays artillery can put a round into a specific ROOM of a select building.

That is extreme accuracy. Naval cannons are also extremely accurate.

Back in WW2, they had no high tech computers to process advanced sensor data. But it was a hell of a lot more accurate then Civil war Cannons and Naval Warfare.

As for Geometry, im not sure how you completely failed at algebra and excelled at geometry. But algebra IS a stepping stone for higher math. They usually go Algebra 1 to Geometry to Alegbra 2 and so on. Theres a reason they dont give you the option of learning geometry first.

[Stealhead]

Right Tribesman what ever you say sure thing:yeah:

@MattJ you do not know much about modern land based artillery then because the spotter still does the same thing he did in WWII he has some more advanced technology but he still sits there and observes the shell hits and adjusts them until they hit home often readjusting as the situation develops.There are pinpoint shells out there but they are very costly and are used very rarely we still use mostly "dumb" shells I never understand how people think that just because we do have "smart" weapons it must mean that most weapons employed are the "smart" type not true I suppose news media and movies are to blame for this.

And you are still nit picking your answers I have yet to see something listed by yourself that does not require a form of Algebra or higher but can be solved by it some how which is what you keep saying but never giving an example of you are giving plenty examples of things that do use algebra which we are all already aware of.And you keep telling us that algebra is a stepping stone to higher level math something that has never been in dispute.And I knew several people in school who did poorly with algebra but did very well in geometry I think the reasoning is because with geometry the problems are more practical to most people than algebra problems therefore students see that they actually have a use for it while with algebra it seems less so.

[Sailor Steve]

That was back in WW2, of course.

Todays artillery can put a round into a specific ROOM of a select building.
No, they can't. Guided missiles with cameras in the nose can do that. An artillery shell is still subject to vagaries of wind and the simple fact that one degree off at the gun can mean missing by way too many yards.
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/4-2180.aspx

Naval cannons are also extremely accurate.
No, they're not. Not even close. Guided missile rounds can be controlled, which is a good thing, but an artillery shell is still a big hunk of steel coasting in the general direction that it was fired, but the accuracy is not much better than it ever was.

Back in WW2, they had no high tech computers to process advanced sensor data. But it was a hell of a lot more accurate then Civil war Cannons and Naval Warfare.
The difference was in shell and gun design, with fire control running a close second. The Civil war still had iron sights, but they also still had smoothbore guns and round shells. The modern explosive shell was not truly developed until the 1880s. The first true rangefinders came along about 1910, and the first gun director was developed for the Royal Navy in 1912. Believe it or not, with each new development naval gun accuracy became worse, not better, mainly because each new development allowed the range to increase and increased range meant that accuracy went down despite improving fire-control technology. In other words, sailing ships with brass cannons were firing at 100 yards or less, with most if not all of the cannonballs hitting the target. By World War 2 the computers were mechanical rather than digital as today, and accurace was down to an average of about 7% overall, with extreme range hits running at about 2%. This is against a moving naval target, of course. Against land targets the accuracy is higher, not because of better accuracy but because the definition of "target" extends to a much larger area.

Apparently you're so wrapped up in proving your point that you failed to see I was merely tweaking you a little. With artillery it's still "by guess and by golly" for the simple reason that the best computer in the world can't take into account the input of erroneous information. GIGO.

As for Geometry, im not sure how you completely failed at algebra and excelled at geometry. But algebra IS a stepping stone for higher math. They usually go Algebra 1 to Geometry to Alegbra 2 and so on. Theres a reason they dont give you the option of learning geometry first.
It doesn't matter what they teach you in what order. The reason I failed at algebra is probably because I have problems with irrational concepts that use substitutions for actual numbers. I can count just fine, and can add and subtract fairly easily, but abstract concepts elude me. Conversely, geometry involves shapes that I can see and touch, and I like looking at shapes. So I understand pi perfectly well but the rest is too advanced for me.

[Stealhead]

I think he is talking about a arty shell that has a GPS guidance system inside it which they have been developing but it was never meant to be used all the time but more as a way to give arty an ability to have pinpoint strike against a high value target when other assets are not available.

I am not sure if they even field them yet but they'd not be used against an enemy troop formation anyway which you know is going to be on the move so using normal dumb shells is cost effective in that case.a regular shell is far far less expensive.Even with the ability the FO is still going to have get the correct data to the big guns.It is useful for a hard target for moving troops that you want to pin down and kill not so much when in that case you dont need the GPS accuracy anyway.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/20081011.aspx

[Sailor Steve]

Math is good. Technology is good. I was just tweaking him because he seems to be taking himself way to seriously.

[CaptainMattJ.]

yep. i was talking about excaliber.

But the best Artillery System can put a round within a hundred meters of its target at long range using Dumb shells

[Tribesman]

Right Tribesman what ever you say sure thing
Indeed, I find it sad that your hang ups from back in your childhood have left you so insecure in yourself to the point of plain paranoia.
But hey thats your problem, go see a shrink about your dads legacy.

[Stealhead]

@mattj True but like any modern weapons system it will only work as well as the crew of people who are using it.Without the FO and team at the fire base who must send those rounds down range who are largely using formula that does not use all that advanced math most of the calculations needed to zero the guns is simple adding and subtracting and after that adjusting to the required azimuth at most it requires some basic algebra and they still have a crew of officers and enlisted men working the calculations out.

Tribesman the only person who seems insecure on this thread is yourself.All you have been doing this thread is attempt to pass insults at me you have nothing useful to say and you keep proving it.

The best thing that I can do for the good of everyone is not reply to anymore of you pointless insults.Now go ahead and post your next immature attempt to upset me if you want to just be aware that you not see any reply which we all know will get to you very effectively.:zzz:

[Tribesman]

Tribesman the only person who seems insecure on this thread is yourself.
Yes steelhead I got very insecure when I misunderstood a comment about methods of numbers involving fingers because my daddy hated me doing finger counting and I had to hide it when I was a little boy and it still haunts me.

All you have been doing this thread is attempt to pass insults at me you have nothing useful to say and you keep proving it.


Errrrrr...I asked you if you worked in the traditional base 12 method from fingers which is as old as time and part of time and you got paranoid with your childhood hang ups over counting and started ranting about being mocked:doh:

The best thing that I can do for the good of everyone is not reply to anymore of you pointless insults.
The best thing you can do is not see imaginary insults to start with.

[Sailor Steve]

But the best Artillery System can put a round within a hundred meters of its target at long range using Dumb shells
In the world of naval artillery a hundred meters is a bad miss. On land it's, well, a bad miss. I was having a similar discussion on a military history board some years back when one one former artilleryman chimed in with "I don't know about the navy, but I can guarantee we in the army hit the ground at least 98% of the time".

On the other hand I'm surprised you're still arguing this. I said at the outset that you were right about the importance of math in this sort of thing, and I've also said twice now that I was just tweaking you, yet you still insist on trying to prove you're right. Well ignore my "up a little, left a little" comment if you like, but ask anyone who's ever done it and you'll find out that sometimes I actually know what I'm talking about.

Sometimes.