Indiana Court rules that defending your home against illegal police entry is illegal

[GoldenRivet]

The Indiana Supreme Court has ruled that:

1. Police no longer must announce their presence when serving a warrant before entering the home - even if the door must be kicked, exploded or shot down, and they no longer have to seek a judge's permission to enter without announcing their presence.

2. Police officers can enter your home without a warrant or immediate cause for search and entry.

3. if your home is illegally entered by a law enforcement officer you have no recourse but to file suite at a later date.

This opens a window for any officer, for any reason to enter your home and do with you and your family what they will while stripping you of your right to defend yourself, your family and your home from an illegal home invasion.

given that the average joe citizen who has not been suspected of a crime should be safe... but there is always that what if?

Personally, i think this creates a dangerous situation. If suddenly my door is being kicked down without any announcement my instinct would be one of defense. And i'm an innocent citizen.

I can only imagine what would be going through the mind of a person who has committed a criminal act.

I think the judgment should have been limited to cases involving domestic disturbance calls only.


Take your pick of sources

FOX NEWS http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/15/indiana-high-court-rules-people-resist-illegal-entry-police-homes/

CHICAGO TRIBUNE http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-ind-court-no-right-to-resist-unlawful-police-entry-20110513,0,2225708.story

[Snestorm]

Sounds like a constitutional matter.

Perhaps a certain judge needs to be reminded that Constitution trumps Law.
(Or is this to be one more tare, in the incremental shredding of USA's Constitution?)

[Platapus]

Take your pick of sources

FOX NEWS http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/15/indiana-high-court-rules-people-resist-illegal-entry-police-homes/

CHICAGO TRIBUNE http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chibrknews-ind-court-no-right-to-resist-unlawful-police-entry-20110513,0,2225708.story


Actually both sources suck as they give very little information on the case. How can any news media publish a story and not give the case citation or even the name of the defendant. :damn:

I would recommend

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/05121101shd.pdf

Which is the Indiana Supreme Court Decision

The Indiana Supreme Court decision is in conflict with several United States Supreme Court decisions on similar cases. I suspect a writ of certiorari to be forthcoming from the SCotUS.

I believe that the arrest of Barnes was appropriate and correct. However, I do not see how this case sets a precedent for overturning The US Supreme Court decisions of 1900 and 1948.

I would be willing to bet a Scobby Snack that Barns V State of Indiana will be overturned.

[Anthony W.]

So, Indiana cops are pretty unreasonable - especially inner city and state patrolmen - and I've seen quite a few rogue cops that abuse their power.

Now they can break in and rob me - and theres nothing I can do about it.

[August]

So, Indiana cops are pretty unreasonable - especially inner city and state patrolmen - and I've seen quite a few rogue cops that abuse their power.

Now they can break in and rob me - and theres nothing I can do about it.

You can blow their heads off. Without announcing who they are you could make a case of just defending yourself against unknown armed assailants.

[Armistead]

We had a case like this years ago in my state. Cops made a mistake and entered the wrong house late at night. The man, being totally innocent saw several men coming up his driveway, he knew he had broken no crimes ever, so thought a gang, he ran to his room and got a shotgun. He had a wife and two kids in the house. He stated they busted down the door, then he shot from from the other side of the living room at the hallway..then they started screaming police entering the home,

Imagine how he felt, were they police, were they playing cops, totally dark. Long story the man was yelling stop, I don't know who you are, the cops yelling for him to come out...it finally settled out, but one cop injured.

The man was arrested, but later released and awarded a multimillion lawsuit. The cops info was terrible, as I recall they weren't even on the right street.

[Molon Labe]

On some level, I understand the decision because I empathize with the idea that it would be better if the homeowner sought a civil remedy after the fact than if s/he resisted with force when it happened. It's certainly better from a public policy point of view. Waco comes to mind.

But "public policy" is exactly why I'm not comfortable with the decision. It's one more step down the path of courts making policy decisions instead of legal decisions. The straight-up legal answer to this is pretty simple: a police officer's authority is limited, and when an officer goes beyond those boundaries s/he no longer has the shield of that authority, and is in the same position as any other person.

EDIT: I think another reason I'm uncomfortable with it is that it represents a shift from an expectation that a citizen will submit to authority according to law to an expectation that a citizen will submit to another individual, regardless of law. That offends my values.

[TorpX]

I think this is a terrible decision. Mistakes happen and there are rogue cops. I am not surprised at the decision, but only that it came from a state like Indiana. I wonder what recourse the people of the state have in terms of the court justices. I hope they make their unhappiness known, and don't just wait for another court to overturn the ruling.


You can blow their heads off. Without announcing who they are you could make a case of just defending yourself against unknown armed assailants.


Whatever any court decides, busting down peoples' doors is going to involve risks, (and it should).

[Ducimus]

2. Police officers can enter your home without a warrant or immediate cause for search and entry.


Back that truck up a second.

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

[GoldenRivet]

Back that truck up a second.

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

tell it to the supreme court of indiana:shifty:

[Platapus]

2. Police officers can enter your home without a warrant or immediate cause for search and entry.



Back that truck up a second.

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."


Before we get excited, this is not what the court ruling said. What the Indiana courts ruling said was that it was upholding the existing exemptions for a warrentless search. The police, in Indiana, can already enter and search your house without a warrent if specific factors apply. That is all the Indiana Supreme Court's decision said (page 5). The court's decision did not increase the number of exemptions nor did it remove the already existing requirement for a search warrant under normal circumstances.

This is why one should never rely on the media to report the facts, always go to the original source.

[Tribesman]

So the householder was the person who called the police to her home, the incident with the police and Barnes first started out in the street, the home barnes claimed he was defending was the one he was being thrown out of.
Whodathunkit, if you call the police to your house as an emergency they can come in, if the person causing the disturbance at that house acts like a jerk he gets arrested.

[gimpy117]

Defend...do you mean use force on the officers? As far as I know, Its an established precedent that you are not allowed to use force against another person unless you are threatened, even going so far as to not being able to shoot intruders like burglars unless you can prove there was danger to yourself or others. A Police officer entering you home Illegally isn't an offense that warrants force, so no, as crummy as it sounds I can see why you are not allowed to "defend your home" from somebody who is not putting your safety in danger.

Ind. Code Section 35-41-3-2 (b) A person: (1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and (2) does not have a duty to retreat; if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling.

thats the section of the Illinois law. I think the fact of the matter is, is that it would be very difficult to prove force was needed to defend yourself against a police officer. Since It says it has to be "necessary", which it was not, that is why its unlawful.

[Armistead]

The issue is not defending against a police officer, but the fear of bodily harm to you or your family. If I'm innocent and wake up half asleep and hear someone beating down my door or walking through my home, that's a problem. That's why police need just cause..Believe me when a criminal hears the door being caved in and the word police, he knows what's happening, innocent people would have cause for suspect. One of the biggest scams of crooks is acting police.

Mistakes happen, but proper codes, warrants, etc, before entering homes. If not, watch how many police officers and home owners start getting shot.

In NC you can shoot someone if they break into your home and you feel threatened. The key is to say your threatened. In every case I've read, the fact someone entered your home implied enough threat. Now, we have had a few dumbarses goof things up for themselves..

Someone enters my home day or night, my family is here they're gonna get shot be damned. Now, if it was so obvious I could stop it without, sure, but if I feel the least threat of harm could be done to my wife or kids, I would..

Heck, my grandmother killed her husbands best friend in the 30's and shot him..They were supposed to be out of town, but came in late and were sneaking the car out of the barn pushing it down the road...she thought it was being stolen. They gave the guy a funeral, filed a report with the local Sheriff and that was it.

[Sailor Steve]

Defend...do you mean use force on the officers? As far as I know, Its an established precedent that you are not allowed to use force against another person unless you are threatened, even going so far as to not being able to shoot intruders like burglars unless you can prove there was danger to yourself or others. A Police officer entering you home Illegally isn't an offense that warrants force, so no, as crummy as it sounds I can see why you are not allowed to "defend your home" from somebody who is not putting your safety in danger.
That varies from state to state. The problem is knowing whether you are threatened. If you catch someone in your home with your television in his hands you can be fairly certain you're not in enough danger to warrant shooting him out-of-hand, but you certainly are able to "detain" him by making him think you may shoot him anyway.

On the other hand if someone kicks in your door you can be pretty sure they have harmful intent, which makes it a problem if it's the representatives of the law doing the kicking. How do you know they're really the police? How do you know the police aren't there to just kill you? You don't.

Here in Utah the law pretty much allows you to shoot anyone who comes into your home without your permission.

§ 76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation
(1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
(b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
(2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.
Emphasis is mine. Notice how they hedged their bets. If you force your way in then you are a threat. If you sneak in, well, you're a threat anyway. If you sneak in and I think you may be a threat, then you're a threat. Basically, if I catch you in my home without my permission, Utah law says you're pretty much screwed. This applies to everyone, including cops.

[gimpy117]

On the other hand if someone kicks in your door you can be pretty sure they have harmful intent, which makes it a problem if it's the representatives of the law doing the kicking. How do you know they're really the police? How do you know the police aren't there to just kill you? You don't.


how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.

[August]

how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.

How do you know they are the police?

[vienna]

You might find this interesting:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-1272.pdf (http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-1272.pdf)

[gimpy117]

How do you know they are the police?

Usually the part where they are wearing Uniforms, and tend to yell police all the time.

I see what you are doing though, you're trying to set up some hypothetical situation where an evil assailant is going to impersonate a police officer and the good homeowner saves the day by blowing him away. Personally I think thats pretty wishy washy, and just another one of those NRA stories to attempt to justify carrying a gun everywhere, or the right to automatically shoot anyone on your property you don't trust. I may be exaggerating with the last two statements, but the truth isn't too far off.

[Ducimus]

At night, in a dark house, bleary eyed having been woken up by a loud noise, I doubt you'd notice uniforms. Just dark clothed intruders, in your dark house, with weapon mounted lights that only further trash your night vision and ability to identify who they are. If your already woken up, and assuming you've got your home defense piece, odds are your going to shoot if you can't ascertain their identity. I know i would based on that scenario alone.

I don't expect to hear, "Police!" and even if i did, id yell, "Show me some ID!", or "Prove it!" or something along those lines before id put my weapon down and step out of cover.

Odds are though, if its a raid, you won't have time for any of that. You just be rudley awaken to a flashlight and gun muzzle in your face.

[Jimbuna]

At night, in a dark house, bleary eyed having been woken up by a loud noise, I doubt you'd notice uniforms. Just dark clothed intruders, in your dark house, with weapon mounted lights that only further trash your night vision and ability to identify who they are. If your already woken up, and assuming you've got your home defense piece, odds are your going to shoot if you can't ascertain their identity. I know i would based on that scenario alone.

I don't expect to hear, "Police!" and even if i did, id yell, "Show me some ID!" or something along those lines before id put my weapon down and step out of cover.

Odds are though, if its a raid, you won't have time for any of that. You just wake up to a flashlight and gun muzzle in your face.

That sounds like a fair summarisation to me :yep:

[razark]

Usually the part where they are wearing Uniforms, and tend to yell police all the time.
Except for:
1. Police no longer must announce their presence when serving a warrant before entering the home - even if the door must be kicked, exploded or shot down, and they no longer have to seek a judge's permission to enter without announcing their presence.
I think Ducimus covers the reasons for not noticing the uniforms.

[gimpy117]

At night, in a dark house, bleary eyed having been woken up by a loud noise, I doubt you'd notice uniforms. Just dark clothed intruders, in your dark house, with weapon mounted lights that only further trash your night vision and ability to identify who they are. If your already woken up, and assuming you've got your home defense piece, odds are your going to shoot if you can't ascertain their identity. I know i would based on that scenario alone.

I don't expect to hear, "Police!" and even if i did, id yell, "Show me some ID!", or "Prove it!" or something along those lines before id put my weapon down and step out of cover.

Odds are though, if its a raid, you won't have time for any of that. You just be rudley awaken to a flashlight and gun muzzle in your face.

yes and no, If it's a raid, they wait until they are in position to call out they are police, but by the time they are seen they are letting it be known that they are who they are. But still, their goal is not to kill you, but to arrest you. At night, chances are a person out to kill you isn't going to run around alerting you to his presence, it would be counter productive, even if he thought he could pretend to be a cop.

[Ducimus]

I think you watch too many cop show's Gimpy, and maybe your an incredibliy light sleeper. If your fast asleep, and wake up to a loud noise, odds are, all you hear is a loud noise. Your not going to be able to discern voice's or much anything else before that point. Your just going to hear... something.

As a recent, and funny example. My Fiancee recorded me snoring. She played it back while i was asleep. I shot up out of bed like a rocket with the ---- scared out of me because i thought I heard a snarling animal in the room. But it wasn't any snarling animal, just a recording of me asleep. :o

[gimpy117]

I think you watch too many cop show's Gimpy, and maybe your an incredibliy light sleeper. If your fast asleep, and wake up to a loud noise, odds are, all you hear is a loud noise. Your not going to be able to discern voice's or much anything else before that point. Your just going to hear... something.

so then you have the right to shoot at this unknown noise? what if it's your kid? your dog? Look, I get it "oh the police could sneak up in the night blah blah" But you really think you are going to blaze away into the night before you know what you are shooting at? Second of all, shooting at someone in this manner is probably illegal, because if you kill somebody when you cannot tell if they are armed or not, it would be pretty hard to prove that you "reasonably believed deadly force was necessary" Besides, Cops aren't going to kick in your door in the middle of the night unless you've done some serious stuff...

[Ducimus]

so then you have the right to shoot at this unknown noise?

If that noise you investigate turns out to be somebody who's not supposed to be there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

what if it's your kid?
Don't have one.

your dog?
He sleeps in our room. Odds are, i'll wake up to him barking anyway. He's a great watch dog.


Look, I get it "oh the police could sneak up in the night blah blah" But you really think you are going to blaze away into the night before you know what you are shooting at?

What, you think i'm going to shoot at any moving shadow in the dark that i see? LOL. Ever hear of the 4 basic rules of gun saftey?

Second of all, shooting at someone in this manner is probably illegal,

Again.... see castle law.

Besides, Cops aren't going to kick in your door in the middle of the night unless you've done some serious stuff...

Exactly. I have no reason to expect the cops! If they come to my house by mistake during the day, that's one thing. At night, thats a whole nother critter.

I have no reason to expect a police raid. I don't even have so much as a parking ticket. So if someone comes banging around inside my place at night, odds are, he shouldn't be there. And if he's someone that shouldn't be there, you have no idea of his intents, but you may assume the worst, and if you hesitate, your dead. Better him then me.

[gimpy117]

I was speaking more generally, besides Indiana law doesn't allow for just shooting without reasonably believing its necessary, I already explained that. You say you won't go shooting randomly, thats good...because when you identify it's the police you can put your gun away and kindly ask them to leave unless they have a warrant. If they don't, well your hands are tied because Using deadly force on a trespasser that isn't threatening your safety is as far as i know not allowed.

[Ducimus]

Gimpy, you don't like firearms very much do you? :O:

[Platapus]

You can shoot pretty much anyone you want. Whether it is justified/legal mayl be up to a jury who wasn't there. Something to consider. :yep:

All it takes is one spunky ADA looking to improve his "image" to make a homeowner's day bad.

[gimpy117]

Gimpy, you don't like firearms very much do you? :O:

I have a K-98 and a Mossberg 500 locked up under my bed right now

[Wolfehunter]

Only thing that is ringing to me is "Police STATE" no more needs to be said.

[Platapus]

Between this and the fact that the police, at least where I live, can pretty much shoot any dog any time they like, I might agree with you on this.

[Sailor Steve]

how do i know? Because the police don't do assassinations, they are there to arrest you, not kill you. If however, you brandish a weapon at them like you suggest, you will have a good chance of getting shot.
Are you really that naive? If they knock on your door, which they usually do, and announce themselves, which they usually do, and give you a chance to come quietly, which they're supposed to do but often don't, then yes, it is your obligation legally, morally and intelligently, to obey and sort out mistakes later.

If anyone comes into your house unannounced then they are asking for whatever they get. You love to have the government tell you what to do, and you are of the "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" mentality. Maybe where you live the government comes first and the individual second. The State I live in believes that the individual is sovereign, and government agencies are obligated to support that idea. The cops I've met consider an armed citizen their best backup, and like the idea of having them around. You say you own a couple of guns, but you seem awfully terrified of them.

[Ducimus]

The State I live in believes that the individual is sovereign, and government agencies are obligated to support that idea.

That reminds me. I'll be driving a Penske truck up that way on the 26th. :O:

[gimpy117]

You say you own a couple of guns, but you seem awfully terrified of them.

no, I'm terrified of the idea of everyone who keeps a pistol by their bed thinking their Rambo, and shooting away at anyone when comes around. It scares me even more when people are so paranoid that they suggest even cops should be fair game. I think the combination of people with guns and the idea that the bogey man is around every corner or sound in the dark is a bad one.

also steve, "Chance to come quietly but often don't"? How many times have you been arrested? you know this for a fact? do tell...been seeing a lot of arrests lately?

[Ducimus]

no, I'm terrified of the idea of everyone who keeps a pistol by their bed thinking their Rambo, and shooting away at anyone when comes around.

Actually, I keep a Mossberg 500 cruiser with a short length of pull stock and side saddle by the bed. I got rid of the pistol grip, for the same reason i'm using a shotgun. Hollywood and Rambo is a bunch of crap.

A shotgun is ideal because it doesn't have the same penetration that a rifle or handgun would have. I wouldn't want any rounds fired to pass through a couple walls and hit an innocent person. A shotgun is also slightly easier to hit a target center of mass in a high stress situation then a handgun or rifle.

It scares me even more when people are so paranoid that they suggest even cops should be fair game.

Nobody said they'd willingly shoot at a cop. Intruders yes.


I think the combination of people with guns and the idea that the bogey man is around every corner or sound in the dark is a bad one.


You must live in a nice safe neighborhood. Where I live, i grew up having to lock all the windows at doors at night because this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ramirez)was on the loose.

When i was in high school, we had no less then 6 drive by shootings, and i went to the good high school.

Just a couple weeks ago in the apartment complex we live in, a tenet was accosted at their mailbox, at gunpoint. That gunman then forced that tenet to bring him to the tenets apartment, where he proceeded to steal everything of value that person had... and we THOUGHT we lived in an "ok" neighborhood.

Paranoid? Hardly. The world can be a harsh place. ---- happens. Nobody is so special that it can't happen to them.

[Stealhead]

I consider a gun owner who has a concealed carry permit and a level head a pretty smart person to be honest I live in the woods and own several firearms most for target shooting or hunting but some are for my and my wife self defense I am not paranoid at all in fact I never even really put to thought a person doing a home invasion on me or blowing away sounds in the night not worried about the cops making a mistake I am good friends with several they'd know my address and speak up.That being said 2 weeks ago less than 1/4 a mile from my home way out in the sticks(the nearest gas station is 4 miles away the grocery store 15 miles nearest neighbor about 1000 yds away ) one ATF agent and two local deputies that where on an undercover drug and weapons buy got weapons drawn and fired own them by 3 "sellers" they exchanged several dozen rounds and one seller got hit in heart(dead) one in the neck(flesh wound) who ran into the woods right behind my property the other was unwounded and also ran into the woods.They hit one of the cops in the leg this at 2:00pm.

I was away from the house with my wife and daughter thank god.But you can believe that I would have been on the alert after hearing a volley of gun fire like that(the locals don't spray rounds down range like that)Clearly it possible that either of those two drug sellers hat ran might have attempted to enter my house at which point if I where home and having heard the gun battle and see a dude running up with a gun in his hand I would have yelled at him to stop make clear that if he did not I'd fire on him If he was a cop hed have said so a criminal either would have kept running or shot at me or stopped(though they had already tried to kill other people who turned out to be cops so I do not think he would have stopped) of course this did not happen that day but it could have.Do I fear for my life after that day?Nope Im more concerned about a drunk driver killing me or falling of a ladder 30 ft in the air at work honestly.But that does not mean that I wont have a means to defend myself from a person seeking to use deadly force against me and you cant know who might try that either I own firearms I know how use them safely and 95% of gun owners are the same way there always 5% nuts when it comes to anything.


Gimpy says that he owns firearms yet he seems to be rather against them and says all the kinds of things that people who are admittedly against firearms tend to say:"the paranoid unsafe gun owner" "the Rambo wannabe" This is the kind of thing my stepfather says and he hates firearms with a passion.Im sorry but it seems that most people that say they are so fearful about how others might use their firearms are often not owners or have little experience with firearms themselves.I am not calling you out Gimpy perhaps you do own the firearms you mention Im just saying for being a gun owner you have a very anti-gun attitude in you posts.They train you in a conceal carry class you know; not to be like what you are so fearful of Gimpy another reason I question your claims surely being a gun owner you'd know those who have CCs and have discussed the training with them.I'm sorry but it just seems like a KKK member saying that he loves to help old African American ladies cross the street and loves volunteer at the local Synagogue in other words you seem highly to highly contradictory in your ownership of gun/fear of what gun owners might do with guns statements.


I know many people who own firearms and have conceal carrys from different walks of life and political views at gun ranges and the like I cant really say that I have meet anyone who fits this uber paranoid unsafe blow a person away for simply trespassing I love Rambo types pretty sure that they dont exist in other words there are very few gun owners who feel/act this way and I honestly feel that some don't really own firearms or are just talking smack to sound tough.


I agree with the others on this issue by and large and there are cases where the police raid the wrong place some have been mentioned it does not happen everyday but it happens.The fact is no one if they where an innocent person could know for sure if someone comes kicking your door in who they are and anyone doing this police or other wise is relaying on the element of surprise the violence of action so it stands to reason that in a case where the real police did not properly ID them selves that the person would attempt to defend them sleeves from the violence of action occurring before them this is a situation no one would wish to be in but clearly this event does occur.

To me it is a sticky spot I do agree that there are violent criminals out there where a SWAT style raid is needed the flip side of this coin is that due to the violence of action they employ in such raids it can be confusing to anyone inside whats going on.

[gimpy117]

my point is, if you are innocent why would you even need to fight back? go quietly and it will get sorted out, rather than getting into more trouble by shooting a cop. I know you aren't calling me out, but i could even give you a pic with timestamps of my guns, although i don't want to because I'm sleeping soon. I enjoy shooting sports, but sports only. I feel that guns only complicate things for most Americans. If a burglar or police officer entered my home right now, I would do everything in my power not to provoke a violent encounter (ie. not grabbing my guns and confronting the man who wants to rob me, not kill me), not only would shooting somebody weigh on my mind, but items are replaceable not the lives of my family and me (in the case of a burglar). Also if I was ever arrested wrongfully I would rather go in and be released (because I've done nothing wrong) than fight back and get the shooting of the police on my record.

[Sailor Steve]

no, I'm terrified of the idea of everyone who keeps a pistol by their bed thinking their Rambo, and shooting away at anyone when comes around.
Then you are naive indeed, or only see what you already believe, rather than what is true. Pretty much everyone I know has a pistol handy, and not one of them has ever shot anyone, though I know of three separate intruders who heard a .45 rack-slide and were halfway down the block before the homeowner could draw a bead. We do have an ethos: never shoot anyone in the back.

It scares me even more when people are so paranoid that they suggest even cops should be fair game. I think the combination of people with guns and the idea that the bogey man is around every corner or sound in the dark is a bad one.
And even more naive, or else making it up as you go along. Not one of my friends believes in the bogeyman or sees anything around any corners. We do, however, investigate noises in our own homes, and do so armed, just in case. On the other hand not too long ago I was waiting for a bus, and the other guy at the bus stop had a pistol in an open holster on his hip. I noticed it, and didn't give it a second thought. I'm not in the least paranoid. If I'm stopped by a cop I'm very polite and tractable. If someone breaks into my home at night, not so much.

also steve, "Chance to come quietly but often don't"? How many times have you been arrested? you know this for a fact? do tell...been seeing a lot of arrests lately?
Personally? I've never been arrested. Stopped and questioned more than a few times, but never cuffed, never taken in and never charged with anything. My comment was directed at the earlier comments about cops breaking into a place because someone they were chasing ran into said place. And yes, I've seen a few arrests lately. Almost every one involved cops doing their jobs. I like cops. I don't like unidentified strangers invading my personal space.

I also don't see the government as my lord and saviour, or even as my friend. You trust government officials to make it right. I trust them to make it wrong.

[magic452]

my point is, if you are innocent why would you even need to fight back? go quietly and it will get sorted out, rather than getting into more trouble by shooting a cop. I know you aren't calling me out, but i could even give you a pic with timestamps of my guns, although i don't want to because I'm sleeping soon. I enjoy shooting sports, but sports only. I feel that guns only complicate things for most Americans. If a burglar or police officer entered my home right now, I would do everything in my power not to provoke a violent encounter (ie. not grabbing my guns and confronting the man who wants to rob me, not kill me), not only would shooting somebody weigh on my mind, but items are replaceable not the lives of my family and me (in the case of a burglar). Also if I was ever arrested wrongfully I would rather go in and be released (because I've done nothing wrong) than fight back and get the shooting of the police on my record.

What you say here makes sense when you know it's the police , go and settle things later but the part I highlighted is what most are talking about. If the police do not announce their presents in a manner you can understand or even hear than things get complicated quickly.

All you know is someone is breaking into your house to steal things (that's burglary). When they find you at home it becomes robbery, if they are armed it becomes Armed Robbery a very serious crime. Such robberies often end up with the home owner getting beaten or killed, when the robber unexpectedly finds someone home and the thief wants to escape the more serious crime. A person committing a break in is not all the comfortable, when it escalated to armed robbery they don't always think rationally and bad things can happen. It happens ofter enough to be a concern to a home owner. This is the scenario the the guys are talking about.

I've come out of my bedroom armed twice. First was just some kids trying to steal a tire off my car because theirs had a flat. I let them go but called the cops saying there were suspicious people in the neighborhood.
They never did get a tire as I saw the car the next morning.

Second time was about 3 years ago. I heard the sound of a garage roll door slamming shut. I have the only roll door around that didn't have a auto closer on it. The sound was a partly open door falling down. I figured that it slipped and fell. I didn't see anybody by the time I carefully checked the house and than went outside.

These things can and do happen and many here feel it's better to be prepared than not. But you do want to be very careful when you pull a gun. People including you can get killed.

Magic

[Stealhead]

What I don't get gimpy is how do you know it is in deed the cops kicking in your door when they say nothing that your are just going to sit there and let them in?You seem to be ignoring this little bit of the discussion.

By your statements it seems that you are making up a situation where everything is known(the cops yelling "Police Search Open The Door!!!!") when the whole thing is about them not doing just that and also violating Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution by not saying who they are or showing a warrant and not needing one and you seem to have no issue with this...Gimpy you really trust your goverment(or your ideal government) way too much.When it should be a citizens duty to never fully trust his government.

You seem to be trying to turn this into a gun control issue when the simple fact is there would be no guns getting used safely,stupidly,paranoidly,or Ramboesquely(I think I just made two new words) or any other way if the state of Indiana choose to follow the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

[Platapus]

Well, Laura Bush has killed more people with her car than I have with my guns. :yep:

Your use of paranoid is also inaccurate in my case.

A paranoid person thinks that people are after him/her specifically. I do not believe that any criminal is targeting me specifically. I do, however, believe that criminals may choose me as their victim either randomly or without knowing my identity. It is this type of criminal that I wish to protect myself and my family against. This does not make me paranoid, it makes me careful.

There is a considerable difference between the two.

[gimpy117]

what Im saying is, If a robber breaks into my home, I'm not going to start a gunfight over my things that could possibly get me or my family killed. Armed robbers aren't thinking clearly sure, but what do you think their first reaction is going to be when you put a gun in their face? Items can be replaced, lives can't.

and what is a gun going to solve with a cop who enters illegally? there are a few options:

-cop comes in, you pull a gun
1. you get the cop, you win, for an hour...the cops roll in a swat team. good luck with that
2. the cop shoots you, you're dead...chances are he's already got his gun drawn
3. you get into a gun battle with the police and survive, you get booked for attempted murder

you see what im getting at? Why would you EVER shoot at the police if they enter?? you are better off dealing with it peacefully. Crooked or not, a cop wouldn't break in your door unless he had a good reason, and using violence only will get you into deeper trouble. There's this disconnect with reality where a gun is supposed to solve everything....but there a repercussions even when shooting a robber. It's not that simple

[August]

You're not listening Gimpy. Nobody here is advocating shooting at the police.

The problem twofold.

First is if the cops do not announce their presence when then they put themselves in a position of being shot at by a homeowner who does not know they are the police.

Secondly is the constitutional issue which cannot be bypassed unless in the most dire and immediate of circumstances, like someone is being assaulted or murdered and breaking in is the only way to stop it.

All other situations need a judges permission. That's the law. End of story.

[gimpy117]

First is if the cops do not announce their presence when then they put themselves in a position of being shot at by a homeowner who does not know they are the police.



I know you aren't advocating shooting them, but you are trying to rationalize shooting them by saying "what if you don't know they're cops at night" etc. etc. The problem is, any home defense gun owner should make a diligent inquiry as to who they are about to engage before opening fire...so if you shoot an officer, chances are you were unaware they were police because you didn't bother to find out, and are not in a position to claim self defense because you were not able to make a judgement that use of deadly force was absolutely necessary...so then it is still illegal...if unintended. Just because the police don't announce who they are does not mean you ought to, or have the right to open fire on the spot.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Let's try it this way, Gimpy. Rather than allowing the possibility of misidentification or crooked cops, manslaughter suits ... etc by allowing this BS to continue, wouldn't a MUCH better solution be to force police to follow procedures, get warrants ... etc?

That seems to benefit both the civilians and the policemen.

[August]

Kaz is correct.

And Gimpy you still can't ignore the fact that this goes against the 4th Amendment.

[Sailor Steve]

I know you aren't advocating shooting them, but you are trying to rationalize shooting them by saying "what if you don't know they're cops at night" etc. etc. The problem is, any home defense gun owner should make a diligent inquiry as to who they are about to engage before opening fire...
:rotfl2:

"Halt! Who are you?" And the burglar, if he has a gun, shoots you dead. How about if you know they're the police and they shoot you anyway?
http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/09/23/Family_Says_911_Tape_Caught_Cops_Planning_Cover-Up_After_Shooting.htm

Google "Homeowner shoots intruder" and see how many times someone with a gun has indeed saved the day, despite your derision of that possibility. Also you'll see a lot of mistakes being made, which is bad, but for the most part the good people involved did indeed do the right thing, and in many cases saved lives to boot. You're the one who is being paranoid, scared to death that any of the several million gun owners in this country is going to shoot you. While it could happen, the chance of someone of evil intent, with or without a gun, doing you serious harm, is much greater.

[Stealhead]

[QUOTE=gimpy117;1666489]what Im saying is, If a robber breaks into my home, I'm not going to start a gunfight over my things that could possibly get me or my family killed. Armed robbers aren't thinking clearly sure, but what do you think their first reaction is going to be when you put a gun in their face? Items can be replaced, lives can't.



Here again you post something that clearly shows that you are very fearful of firearms.I find it very hard to believe that any person who owned a gun or any weapon even a baseball bat is going to actually have an armed intruder in their home(one is clearly not a cop) and they are going go with your line of thinking.This is just nonsense no right thinking person capable o defend them selves by any means is going to think such a thing you have stated to themselves when a person displaying clear intent to use said arm if needed and perhaps (you cant know this but I know you seem to think that you will Gimpy just like you think you will now when police have entered your home unannounced) is going to kill you and your family.

Furthermore you keep saying gunfight gun battle when in most self defense cases the person had retreated to a back corner of their house and fired only as the last option.


You still choose to ignore the entire 4th Amendment point of this entire thread and and continue to make obvious anti-gun statements you keep turning this into a chance to express an anti-gun agenda.I again find it very hard to believe that you in fact own firearms because your statements about them in this thread make it clear that you are fearful of guns on such a level that I dont see how you could be at ease having one in your home or in your presence.Your statements are the exact same thing that every person I know that dislikes/fears guns and in most cases has an anti-gun agenda and believes the propaganda that anti-gun groups promote.

Do you even have an opinion on the OP topic of this thread the 4th Amendment?.....I doubt it because you love and obey your government without question it seems if they said jump you'd say "how high?" instead of "why".

If you where truly concerned about everyone safety you'd see the obvious foolishness of this court ruling which puts the police and innocent people at greater risk but you ignore that you just read some comments about guns and saw the chance to show off just how afraid of guns and other gun owners that you are or how much you believe the anti-gun propaganda and don't even think about posting about "NRA" and "republican" pro gun propaganda(when you post several times about the other sides propaganda) there are many gun owners that are not in the NRA and that are not republicans and that don't believe either sides propaganda.

The obvious fact of this is that there are those who wish to slowly one step at a time take away most of our rights as Americans that should alarm you but you are so tricked by their propaganda you don't even realize it.

[MH]

I know you aren't advocating shooting them, but you are trying to rationalize shooting them by saying "what if you don't know they're cops at night" etc. etc. The problem is, any home defense gun owner should make a diligent inquiry as to who they are about to engage before opening fire...so if you shoot an officer, chances are you were unaware they were police because you didn't bother to find out, and are not in a position to claim self defense because you were not able to make a judgement that use of deadly force was absolutely necessary...so then it is still illegal...if unintended. Just because the police don't announce who they are does not mean you ought to, or have the right to open fire on the spot.

I sort of agree to that.
When you wake up at middle of the night and find out that someone has broken your door and is in your bedroom is one thing.
Being allowed by law to shoot at any one who is in your back yard without asking questions is something different.
Its a right to mindless shooting.

[Stealhead]

As far as I am aware it is illegal to simply shot at someone just for being on your property like say your yard.I can recall some guy saying that he could do this some years back in tech school,simply shot at someone on his property just for being there no questions asked everyone else including a woman who had a concealed carry license(I did not have one at the time) was trying to tell him that he was wrong.And I agree that just blowing away someone with no verification first is mindless shooting I think everyone else would agree with that.

I don't know about every state but you cant just shoot someone in Florida just for being on your land and nothing else they have to be clearly endangering you and you are supposed to only use deadly force when all other options fail.

[gimpy117]

:rotfl2:

"Halt! Who are you?" And the burglar, if he has a gun, shoots you dead. How about if you know they're the police and they shoot you anyway?
http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/09/23/Family_Says_911_Tape_Caught_Cops_Planning_Cover-Up_After_Shooting.htm




Or the the unarmed kid who was there to steal your T.V is now dead, and you go to prison. My point is, it's not self defense unless you know you are in danger...and without finding out who is intruding in your home you cannot reasonably say it was self defense. Also, trespassing or burglary does not give you the right to just shoot somebody.

Also, yes i understand the whole "4th amendment" but heres also the thing: the police breaking onto your home is Illegal, and they should be punished for them breaking the law, but you are STILL not allowed to shoot them.



Here again you post something that clearly shows that you are very fearful of firearms.I find it very hard to believe that any person who owned a gun or any weapon even a baseball bat is going to actually have an armed intruder in their home(one is clearly not a cop) and they are going go with your line of thinking.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm198/dylanjohnstone78/IMG_0715.jpg

theres a picture of my K-98. I own guns stealhead, so I guess you're going to have the beleive it.

[Sailor Steve]

Or the the unarmed kid who was there to steal your T.V is now dead, and you go to prison. My point is, it's not self defense unless you know you are in danger...and without finding out who is intruding in your home you cannot reasonably say it was self defense. Also, trespassing or burglary does not give you the right to just shoot somebody.
A decent point, but you still have the problem that demanding anything of any unidentified person in the dark is a stupid idea. I like Utah's law: If he's in your home without your permission, it's his fault, and no you don't go to prison. And here in Utah, if he's in your home without your permission then you don't have to say it was self-defense, reasonable or otherwise. He shouldn't be there, and it's his problem.

[gimpy117]

A decent point, but you still have the problem that demanding anything of any unidentified person in the dark is a stupid idea.

well I didn't make the law, I know it's crummy, but the law is put in place to make sure people aren't being killed unless there isn't an alternative to doing so. Whats the saying "shoot first and ask questions later?" obviously that negative saying came from somewhere

[Aramike]

well I didn't make the law, I know it's crummy, but the law is put in place to make sure people aren't being killed unless there isn't an alternative to doing so. Whats the saying "shoot first and ask questions later?" obviously that negative saying came from somewhereWhat is so hard about holding the person who ACTUALLY CAUSES the problem accountable?

Gimpy, it's simple: don't want to get shot invading a home? Don't invade the damned home.

You can give sob stories about the poor teenager who gets shot trying to take a TV all you want, but personally I'm more concerned with the teenager who's growing up without a father - a father who's life was cut short because he had to stop to figure out how dangerous the intruder actually is.

At the end of the day, the moron who's life was cut short over a TV should've simply chosen to forgo that which he was unwilling to pay for.

[CCIP]

And I sit here and smirk. I've probably lived in a much more dangerous place in the world (large city in mid-90s Russia) than most of you, and never did I or my family feel the urge to own a gun. For about the same cost, instead - steel bars on windows, reinforced steel door in addition to the wooden one, three complex locks, and a trusty axe next to the bed. Problem solved, noone can possibly sneak up on you, and noone dies - and if they have to, you'll be the one striking from around the corner with a weapon no less deadly in close quarters. No need to cave in to paranoia either, no training required, noone will take you to court over improper use of a door. I mean SURE someone could get around that if they were really determined and well-equipped, but against a determined and well-equipped killer I'm afraid a gun won't save you either. Nor will it save you from the government. And if your place isn't a lavish castle, at a certain point noone's going to go through all that crap just for your TV.

I don't consider gun nuts "nuts" at all by the way, but the home defense argument to me always falls flat. It's such an unreliable, expensive, fault-ridden method with a lot of risks that I really don't understand it. Trust me, it's cultural psychology - and again, by no means do I suggest it to be a "pathology", but it's a very strange obsession/quirk that unsurprisingly isn't shared by most people in the world.

[Tribesman]

I don't consider gun nuts "nuts" at all by the way, but the home defense argument to me always falls flat. It's such an unreliable, expensive, fault-ridden method with a lot of risks that I really don't understand it. Trust me, it's cultural psychology - and again, by no means do I suggest it to be a "pathology", but it's a very strange obsession/quirk that unsurprisingly isn't shared by most people in the world.
:agree:Apart from the "expensive" bit, firearms are not expensive.

[Armistead]

And I sit here and smirk. I've probably lived in a much more dangerous place in the world (large city in mid-90s Russia) than most of you, and never did I or my family feel the urge to own a gun. For about the same cost, instead - steel bars on windows, reinforced steel door in addition to the wooden one, three complex locks, and a trusty axe next to the bed. Problem solved, noone can possibly sneak up on you, and noone dies - and if they have to, you'll be the one striking from around the corner with a weapon no less deadly in close quarters. No need to cave in to paranoia either, no training required, noone will take you to court over improper use of a door. I mean SURE someone could get around that if they were really determined and well-equipped, but against a determined and well-equipped killer I'm afraid a gun won't save you either. Nor will it save you from the government. And if your place isn't a lavish castle, at a certain point noone's going to go through all that crap just for your TV.

I don't consider gun nuts "nuts" at all by the way, but the home defense argument to me always falls flat. It's such an unreliable, expensive, fault-ridden method with a lot of risks that I really don't understand it. Trust me, it's cultural psychology - and again, by no means do I suggest it to be a "pathology", but it's a very strange obsession/quirk that unsurprisingly isn't shared by most people in the world.

To make a house like that in the US would cost thousands, but most houses here are secure. I fear more crime going out in public.

No, guns can't save you from government, but sure can protect you. Just look at nations that have lil or no weapons, when government goes nuts people can't defend themselves. Our government doesn't care if we kill each other each other as long as they get elected and make their friends rich.

[Tribesman]

Just look at nations that have lil or no weapons, when government goes nuts people can't defend themselves.
Care to run off a few examples which would show the slightest truth in that?

[August]

And I sit here and smirk. I've probably lived in a much more dangerous place in the world (large city in mid-90s Russia) than most of you, and never did I or my family feel the urge to own a gun. For about the same cost, instead - steel bars on windows, reinforced steel door in addition to the wooden one, three complex locks, and a trusty axe next to the bed. Problem solved, noone can possibly sneak up on you, and noone dies - and if they have to, you'll be the one striking from around the corner with a weapon no less deadly in close quarters. No need to cave in to paranoia either, no training required, noone will take you to court over improper use of a door. I mean SURE someone could get around that if they were really determined and well-equipped, but against a determined and well-equipped killer I'm afraid a gun won't save you either. Nor will it save you from the government. And if your place isn't a lavish castle, at a certain point noone's going to go through all that crap just for your TV.

I don't consider gun nuts "nuts" at all by the way, but the home defense argument to me always falls flat. It's such an unreliable, expensive, fault-ridden method with a lot of risks that I really don't understand it. Trust me, it's cultural psychology - and again, by no means do I suggest it to be a "pathology", but it's a very strange obsession/quirk that unsurprisingly isn't shared by most people in the world.

So let me get this straight.

To be able to defend oneself in your world one has to be fit enough to effectively wield an axe and be able to ambush their intruder. Not to mention get their landlord to install window bars (fire codes?), fancy locks and steel security doors.

Talk about an unreliable, expensive and fault ridden methods... :roll:

What happens if there are two (or more) intruders? Are you going to be able to pull that axe from the first intruders head quick enough to ambush the second one?

Personally I'm racking a .12ga 3 inch magnum buckshot round in the chamber of my bayoneted Mossberg 590. The sound that makes is a lot more effective than telling some drug crazed home invader that you have an axe and you know how to use it.

[Stealhead]

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm198/dylanjohnstone78/IMG_0715.jpg

theres a picture of my K-98. I own guns stealhead, so I guess you're going to have the beleive it.[/QUOTE]

I can believe that I suppose though I still find your whole other gun owners use of guns feelings a little over the top fro yourself being a gun owner .I mean I have heard of folks that sleep with gun under their pillows which I think is rather stupid but I honestly dont know very many who have the overly paranoid blast the shadows and shoot no questions asked types.I know some that are a bit over the top like a co-worker says that he leaves a gun in the bathroom with him when he takes a shower which I think is a bit much.:hmmm:
It just seems to me that you assume that every or many gun owners are paranoid.Personally most of my firearms are either for hunting or for target shooting and I don't really have any fear of a person coming into my home to be honest it would be hard anyway with all the dogs and horses in the first place.Most gun owners I know are not the "paranoid" or Rambo end of thinking.
I think you worry too much about what others say they have or will do if that goes against what you think why spend that much time thinking about it?I mean your not planing on being a police officer who could get in said situation and I dont peg you as planning on breaking into someones home so why even out much thought into the paranoid Rambo gun owner in the first place?

Better yet why not become a firearms instructor?Then you can be sure that you teach future possible paranoid gun owners how not think that way and teach them how to safely handle firearms.I am saying this because the people that wish to make all guns illegal are the types that tend to spread around the type of thinking that you have been posting (the whole blasts shadows etc. thing).

P.S. your Kar-98 has not the standard military style stock different behind the trigger and looks like rest of the stock back towards the butt and it lacks the section cut through for the shoulder strap no indention under the bolt someone put a different stock on this rifle not much of a k-98 person but it looks unlike most K-98s and G-98 that I have seen I'd have kept the original style stock myself.Why did you crop out the muzzle? I always like to see which type of fore sight a K-98 has.

[teapot]

A) that k98 is not real, compare it to pictures of k98 variants and it's obvious, the muzzle was cropped out because it probably has a little orange cap on it.

B) gimp is not a friend of gun owners, you can tell by his general lack of knowledge, lack of gun safety protocols, and a general unfriendliness to the constitution of the united states.

C) i loved how gimp was repudiated successfully throughout this entire thread, in a rational and high-road manner. Destroying the gimp (brady) argument with logic and reason is the best way to defeat their attempts to infringe on the constitution.

D) i can tell you how i'd react to this scenario:


I'm awakened by a loud bang, it's 3AM. i hear bootsteps in the hallway. i reach for my ar15, and flip the safety off. i yell 'IDENTIFY YOURSELF' (i'm still behind my bedroom door, unknowns are in the house). i take aim at my door, and wait. anyone, i mean ANYONE, if it's barack obama himself, absolutely ANYONE breaks down that door, i'm firing. if i can identify the intruders as police, i'll stand down, until that point as i am 100% certain that they are infact police, i consider them enemies of myself and my constitution. it's me or them, i choose me. no offense gimp, but your views are more at home in great Britain, where self defense is a criminal offense.




god bless america,
amen

[mookiemookie]

http://www.strat-talk.com/forum/attachments/sidewinders-bar-grille/21263d1305120619-necro-thread-necro.jpg

[Bubblehead1980]

I was going to write a long drawn out message but one word describes this ruling.....DISGUSTING.

[Takeda Shingen]

http://www.strat-talk.com/forum/attachments/sidewinders-bar-grille/21263d1305120619-necro-thread-necro.jpg

Hey! Stop that! I use that one around here!

:O:

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

@teapot: Welcome aboard! :salute:

[Madox58]

You can argue 'point of Law' all you want.
I have a Step-Son that now has Hepititac C all due to a Home invasion!
I've posted in many threads about our home being invaded and the out come.
This Hepititac C thing is now a death sentence brought about by the invasion!
Should the invaders be held liable for this?
I think so.
But all we get is 'It happens no one is liable'.
I have one rule in my home.
You come in without an invite?
I WILL DO MY BEST TO KILL YOU!!
Unarmed? NO PROBLEM! I will see to it that you were armed.
You a Cop? Your vest won't save you as I do head shots and I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6.

When your home and the lives of those close to you are violated you will sing a different tune about the so called 'right' thing to do.

Kill them all and let God or whatever sort the bastards out!

[Sailor Steve]

Oh yeah! Let's all jump right back into a fight that died eight months ago. :nope:

[Madox58]

It's GT.
What do you expect?
:haha:
It's like walking into a Bar you stopped going to because every one is an arse.
You know what's going to happen.
But you still walk through the door!

[mookiemookie]

Hey! Stop that! I use that one around here!

:O:

:rotfl2: One of the first good images that came up when I ran "necro thread" through Google Image Search.