Go fer ya gun partner

[sidslotm]

I found this amazing picture on the web today, the full power of the naval broadside displayed in all it's power and Glory.

But what is the ship and who's she firing at ?


http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/8052/broadside.jpg

[Torplexed]

It's a Iowa class battleship. Likely just a practice barrage.

[Platapus]

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/8052/broadside.jpg

Why does the water depression appear to be bigger at the aft guns (3) and the water depression appear smaller at the forward guns (6)?

In this picture were the aft guns fired first?

[GoldenRivet]

Aft guns appear to have fired first.

I don't think the fore most gun has even fired yet

[Torplexed]

Judging by the puffs of smoke amidships, some of the five inch secondary batteries are likely firing too.

[Rockstar]

Looks maybe like an aerial taken from a Swordfish when they firing at the Bismarck back W W Vietnam. :88)

[Torplexed]

Too bad we couldn't have lent one of the four to the Royal Navy during the Falklands conflict in '82. Would have helped make short work of the Argentinian Army's entrenched hill positions around the port of Stanley.

[CCIP]

I believe that's the New Jersey in exercises off Puerto Rico.

[FIREWALL]

footnote: When all guns are fired in a broadside that ship moves laterialy sideways quite a distance in the water. WOW!!! :o

[CCIP]

footnote: When all guns are fired in a broadside that ship moves laterialy sideways quite a distance in the water. WOW!!! :o

That's actually a myth. We had quite a discussion on the physics of that before. When the guns are fired, the ship moves sideways at most a fraction of a millimeter :88)

[Oberon]

That's actually a myth. We had quite a discussion on the physics of that before. When the guns are fired, the ship moves sideways at most a fraction of a millimeter :88)

No...no...not this discussion again...please...god...no!!

[CCIP]

No...no...not this discussion again...please...god...no!!

Can I blame Obama for it? :88)

[Torplexed]

Can I blame Obama for it? :88)

Blame Ronald Reagan . He's the one who brought these behemoths out of mothballs. :03:

[Tchocky]

No...no...not this discussion again...please...god...no!!

I remember that one, must dig it out ;)

[FIREWALL]

That's actually a myth. We had quite a discussion on the physics of that before. When the guns are fired, the ship moves sideways at most a fraction of a millimeter :88)

Could this be the discussion ? :DL

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom//archive/index.php/t-113800.html :haha:

[Sailor Steve]

Yes, that would be it. I posted a link in that thread to the experts' reasons why movement is minimal, but just in case it can't be found.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-022.htm

Also, if you want to spend a lot of time (a big lot of time) finding out things (including why nuclear-powered aircraft carriers don't really go 50 knots, or 45, or even 40) have a look through their main page.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/index_tech.htm

[Platapus]

Aft guns appear to have fired first.

I don't think the fore most gun has even fired yet

I think you are right. In real life would all nine guns ever be fired exactly at the same time or would there be a ripple? i.e., Turret 1, turret 2, turret 3 right after another?

Can all three turrets be fired at the exact same time?


Yes, that would be it. I posted a link in that thread to the experts' reasons why movement is minimal, but just in case it can't be found.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-022.htm

Also, if you want to spend a lot of time (a big lot of time) finding out things (including why nuclear-powered aircraft carriers don't really go 50 knots, or 45, or even 40) have a look through their main page.
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/index_tech.htm


Navweps needs to be bookmarked by anyone interested in .. uh.. well.. naval weapons. :D

It is an awesome website!

[Platapus]

Judging by the puffs of smoke amidships, some of the five inch secondary batteries are likely firing too.

I believe that's the New Jersey in exercises off Puerto Rico.


USS Iowa BB-16 firing a 15 gun Broadside in 1984 So I think you are right, some of the 5 inch guns are involved.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-022.htm

Here is an interesting picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_%28BB-61%29

Look at the bow (pointy end) of the Iowa. There appears to be a white wake disturbance that indicates that the bow has moved laterally. What is that white foam?

[Torplexed]

Look at the bow (pointy end) of the Iowa. There appears to be a white wake disturbance that indicates that the bow has moved laterally. What is that white foam?

When a heavy gun is fired, it leaves an enormous vacuum about the muzzle. Could be that it's drawing in the foam from the bow wake.

[MothBalls]

Blame Ronald Reagan . He's the one who brought these behemoths out of mothballs. :03:It was a very unpleasant experience for me, would rather forget it.

[antikristuseke]

So the TL;DR answer to the question, do battleship move sideways when firing their guns, is this one of the following:

Short answer: No.

Long answer: ---- no.

[Sailor Steve]

When a heavy gun is fired, it leaves an enormous vacuum about the muzzle. Could be that it's drawing in the foam from the bow wake.
Actually it's photoshop. I've seen the exact same photo in an old book, and none of that streaking foam is in the original picture.

Here are a couple of pictures for real:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/USSIowaInAction01.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Iowa.jpg

And some pretty good video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7R_k_xAefc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj-15O-BTDw&feature=related

[Sailor Steve]

I think you are right. In real life would all nine guns ever be fired exactly at the same time or would there be a ripple? i.e., Turret 1, turret 2, turret 3 right after another?

Can all three turrets be fired at the exact same time?
Yes they can. The guns in the turrets are automatically timed to fire a fraction of a second apart to prevent the shells from interfering with each other. Standard practice in most navies was to fire one barrel from each turret simultaneously, as this made it easier for the gunnery officer to see exactly where they were hitting.

Navweps needs to be bookmarked by anyone interested in .. uh.. well.. naval weapons. :D

It is an awesome website!
It used to be part of a much larger site called Warships1.com. The guy running it shut it down several years ago, but his partner kept his half going. The old site had hundreds of pictures and information on ships. Their discussion boards used to be a lot of fun. I haven't been there lately, so I can't say for certain what's going on these days.

[TLAM Strike]

USS Iowa BB-16...

The BB-16 was the USS New Jersey, Virginia class battleship.

Trivia time, what was the last in commission BB sunk for reasons other than training or scuttling?

[Raptor1]

The BB-16 was the USS New Jersey, Virginia class battleship.

Trivia time, what was the last in commission BB sunk for reasons other than training or scuttling?

USS Arkansas (BB-33) was sunk with nuclear weapons in Operation Crossroads on July 25th, 1946, four days before she was decommissioned.

EDIT: Oh, wait, only US ships? If not, I do believe the Novorossiysk (Formerly the Giulio Cesare) exploded and sank around 1955...

[Torplexed]

Actually it's photoshop. I've seen the exact same photo in an old book, and none of that streaking foam is in the original picture.

Here are a couple of pictures for real:



Those are impressive pictures. :cool: Probably more so for being relatively modern photographs in color. Sadly, most of the pictures of the great battlewagons of World Wars One or Two unloosing a broadside are in black and white if they exist at all.

[Platapus]

The BB-16 was the USS New Jersey, Virginia class battleship.




Either it was my fat finger typing 16 vice 61 or it was my dyslexia "seeing" 16 vice 61 or just my land lubbing ignorance, but in any case Mea Culpa for my mistake. :88)

There is a big difference between BB-16 and BB-61 :damn::damn::damn:

[TLAM Strike]

EDIT: Oh, wait, only US ships? If not, I do believe the Novorossiysk (Formerly the Giulio Cesare) exploded and sank around 1955...
Correct. :up:

[sidslotm]

Ok, before you all laugh, I seem to remember being asked years ago, "if a bumble bee hit and ocean going liner head on at sea" that both would actually stop for an instance, heh. Maybe the battle ship would move slightly to one side while firing a broadside, I know I move slightly foreward when expelling sudden and violet gusts of gas, it's relative. :DL

[seaniam81]

A nice (if somewhat old) video of the USS Wisconsin firing her guns. Even shows them loading the shell and powder. Even has a picture in picture of the recoil of a gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ATYPrZnSQ

[Platapus]

A nice (if somewhat old) video of the USS Wisconsin firing her guns. Even shows them loading the shell and powder. Even has a picture in picture of the recoil of a gun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5ATYPrZnSQ

OK, lubber question: The guy in the video who is responsible for commanding the mechanism and who seals the breech, what would be his rating and rank?

[Sailor Steve]

Ok, before you all laugh, I seem to remember being asked years ago, "if a bumble bee hit and ocean going liner head on at sea" that both would actually stop for an instance, heh.
And every time you jump the Earth moves the tiniest fraction of a micron.

Maybe the battle ship would move slightly to one side while firing a broadside, I know I move slightly foreward when expelling sudden and violet gusts of gas, it's relative. :DL
WHOA! Way too much information!
:rotfl2:

[GoldenRivet]

Anyone remember the USS Iowa turret explosion in the late 80s?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qalJ9koob2Q

[yubba]

Yea I remember seeing that on the news. I had been reading about the USS South Dakota and the damage she took in the south pacific, pretty interresting stuff 43 hits by large caliber shells, a hole ripped through her superstructure you could walk through.

[sidslotm]

Anyone remember the USS Iowa turret explosion in the late 80s?



Yes I remember that event on local news/uk, did they ever confirm how this happened???

[Stealhead]

Well according to wiki anyway:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion

it was caused by a lovers quarrel.You'd think the anti-gays in the military folks would use this as an example.

Though it seems that congress thought that the whole gay thing was not true and the Navy later apologized
to the guys family I guess for saying that he was gay and then suicidal and for making him a scapegoat.

Here is what happens when nothing goes wrong:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7R_k_xAefc&feature=related

[TorpX]

I remember the accident and the "sabotage theory". I never thought it was very credable. Most of what I read involved ill-considered ballistics experiments and the possibility of over-ramming. I also remember stuff in the papers about how "old" and "crude" the guns were, but they seemed to function very well in WWII.


Yes they can. The guns in the turrets are automatically timed to fire a fraction of a second apart to prevent the shells from interfering with each other. Standard practice in most navies was to fire one barrel from each turret simultaneously, as this made it easier for the gunnery officer to see exactly where they were hitting.



I saw news video when they were used in Lebanon against the Syrians. It showed them being fired one at a time. That puzzled me as it is usually desirable to obtain a TOT effect. In a fleet action, wouldn't they have to fire them in volley, to avoid any pitching or rolling problems (in rough seas)?

[Platapus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmOQs0ziSU&feature=related

Very nice training video on the 16 inch turret operation. :yeah:

[Sailor Steve]

I saw news video when they were used in Lebanon against the Syrians. It showed them being fired one at a time. That puzzled me as it is usually desirable to obtain a TOT effect. In a fleet action, wouldn't they have to fire them in volley, to avoid any pitching or rolling problems (in rough seas)?

In naval combat you want to fire salvos, or even full broadsides, not because of rolling problems but because the Fire Control Officer needs to see whether his aim is long or short, and you can't do that if one shell is coming down every two seconds. On the other hand, during shore bombardment you fire one and get a report from a land-based spotter, and adjust on his mark. The 5"/38s our destroyer carried were capable of firing a full broadside every five or six seconds, but in actual practice we normally fired one or a pair every fifteen seconds or so. Much easier that way, except for one time we were firing at night and my bunk was almost under the aft turret.

[Sledgehammer427]

Much easier that way, except for one time we were firing at night and my bunk was almost under the aft turret.

Good Morning! :o

[Torplexed]

Much easier that way, except for one time we were firing at night and my bunk was almost under the aft turret.

Assuming this was combat and not practice, I imagine whoever was out there in the distant darkness on the receiving end of those five inch shells was probably wishing he could trade bunks with you. :D

[sidslotm]

One of the great effects of the broadside was crossing the T, bringing all major guns to bare on the enemy coming towards you, or moving away. The Royal Navy managed to complete this manouver twice at Jutland in WW1.

I was surprised to learn recently that when the Hood attacked Bismarck she was steaming head on and only able to fire two turrets, the complete opposite of the tactic used in WW1. Surely you are an easier target when presenting the ships bow, opposed to presenting a side on attack, ie a broadside.

[Torplexed]

I was surprised to learn recently that when the Hood attacked Bismarck she was steaming head on and only able to fire two turrets, the complete opposite of the tactic used in WW1. Surely you are an easier target when presenting the ships bow, opposed to presenting a side on attack, ie a broadside.


Admiral Holland aboard the Hood, was aware of the danger posed by Hood's outdated horizontal protection. Therefore, he wanted to reduce the range to Bismarck as quickly as possible and considered the risk acceptable. Bad roll of the dice.

[TLAM Strike]

One of the great effects of the broadside was crossing the T, bringing all major guns to bare on the enemy coming towards you, or moving away. The Royal Navy managed to complete this manouver twice at Jutland in WW1.

I was surprised to learn recently that when the Hood attacked Bismarck she was steaming head on and only able to fire two turrets, the complete opposite of the tactic used in WW1. Surely you are an easier target when presenting the ships bow, opposed to presenting a side on attack, ie a broadside.

The Hood was about to make its turn bradside to unmask its aft gun(s) when she took that fatal hit IIRC.

[Raptor1]

As far as I recall, the Hood executed two turns during the engagement, the first one right before the Germans opened fire had actually opened her rear guns' firing arcs enough to allow them to open fire. It was during the execution of the second turn a few minutes later that she was hit and exploded.

[Sailor Steve]

Assuming this was combat and not practice, I imagine whoever was out there in the distant darkness on the receiving end of those five inch shells was probably wishing he could trade bunks with you. :D
You're probably right. Not ten minutes after the first shot jarred me awake I was long gone and unaware.

As for all the "I recall"s about Hood, You're pretty close to home. Here's a good article from the International Naval Research Organization's old magazine Warship International:
http://www.navweaps.com/index_inro/INRO_Hood_p1.htm