Pakistan's parliament condemns bin Laden raid

[Feuer Frei!]

Pakistan's parliament condemned Saturday the U.S. raid to find and kill Osama bin Laden, calling for a review of U.S. ties and warning that Pakistan could cut supply lines to American forces in Afghanistan (http://www.reuters.com/places/afghanistan) if there were more such attacks.
Pakistan's intelligence chief was cited as saying he was ready to resign over the bin Laden affair, which has embarrassed the country and led to suspicion that Pakistani (http://www.reuters.com/places/pakistan) security agents knew where the al Qaeda chief was hiding.
The secret U.S. raid on bin Laden's lair in the garrison town of Abbottabad, 50 km (30 miles) north of Islamabad, has strained already prickly ties with the United States.
It has also led to domestic criticism of the government and military, partly because bin Laden had apparently remained undetected in Pakistan (http://www.reuters.com/places/pakistan) for years, but also because of the failure to detect or stop the U.S. operation to get him.
"Parliament ... condemned the unilateral action in Abbottabad which constitutes a violation of Pakistan's sovereignty," it said in a resolution issued after security chiefs briefed legislators.
Pakistan has dismissed as absurd any suggestion that authorities knew bin Laden was holed up in a high-walled compound near the country's top military academy.
The U.S. administration has not accused Pakistan of complicity in hiding bin Laden but has said he must have had some sort of support network, which it wants to uncover.
Pakistan has a long record of using Islamist militants as proxies, especially to counter the influence of nuclear-armed rival, India.
Members of the two houses of parliament said the government should review ties with the United States to safeguard Pakistan's national interests and they also called for an end to U.S. attacks on militants with its pilotless drone aircraft.
They also called for an independent commission to investigate the bin Laden case.


MORE HERE (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/14/us-binladen-idUSTRE7410D320110514)

[STEED]

Nuts to them, they knew.

[the_tyrant]

what do you expect?
It was obviously a huge disappointment for Pakistan

[Anthony W.]

Nuke em...

[joegrundman]

guess the americans had better promise not to kill Bin Laden in Pakistan ever again

[MH]

That's internal make Pakistanis happy populism.
Pakistani Government says what the people what to hear and that's what really scary.

[Torplexed]

Yup. And Idi Amin condemned the Entebbe Raid. These clowns should last as long.

[Onkel Neal]

Nuke em...

Agreed, time to team up with India and take them out.

[Takeda Shingen]

I don't know if I'd advocate taking them out, but I certainly say screw 'em. Cut the aid, and put the diplomacy on ice. These guys aren't our friends.

[MH]

I don't know if I'd advocate taking them out, but I certainly say screw 'em. Cut the aid, and put the diplomacy on ice. These guys aren't our friends.

Take out their nukes first.

[Skybird]

Preaching since years that all that aid given them is a waste and is used not to help but to hurt Western/American interests, and soldiers. Pakistan invented the Taliban (thoigh together with the CIA), and Pakistan is the ally and protector of the Taliban. Pakistan is no ally for us, but a very underhanded enemy.

And it was that from the beginning of the Afghanistan war on.

The mission in that part of the world, needs to be shifted in focus, away from Afghanistan, which does not produce any fruits anyway, and towards infiltrating Pakistan's security and military structures and hierarchies, and finding out about where and how their warheads and carrier system are hidden.

Once we know for sure, take them out, preferrably in a surprising strike that leaves them no chance to move them again.

The Pakistani warheads are the biggest concern in that part of the world, and a threat to all world due to the succeeding destabilization of the county and the dominant role of religious fanatism and irrationality involved in all this mess. To me, not N-Korea or Iran, but Pakistan is the most dangerous hotspot in the world today.

[Fish In The Water]

Pakistan has dismissed as absurd any suggestion that authorities knew bin Laden was holed up in a high-walled compound near the country's top military academy.

Ya like the walls were high so we didn't know he was there, okay dude? :zzz:

[Anthony W.]

I have an idea that takes care of quite a few problems with the world.

Blow all of our violent enemies off the map, then blow all their supporters off the map.

Then - with a decent percentage of the world's population gone - we can feed the population of starving countries.

We can use the extra land to reduce global population density

Problems solved - global conflict, world hunger, and overcrowding

:D

[papa_smurf]

Nuts to them, they knew.

You have the makings of a fine diplomat:D

[GoldenRivet]

I don't know if I'd advocate taking them out, but I certainly say screw 'em. Cut the aid, and put the diplomacy on ice. These guys aren't our friends.

Plus 1

[Tribesman]

I don't know if I'd advocate taking them out, but I certainly say screw 'em. Cut the aid, and put the diplomacy on ice. These guys aren't our friends.
Its a case of Then what?
Plus one?????????
.....simple enough question takeda.....what then?

[MH]

Then what?
Plus one?????????
.....simple enough question takeda.....what then?

Kill them all.....

[Tribesman]

Kill them all.....
Well done MH , you have come up with the final solution.

[MothBalls]

Kill them all.....Then after the last one is dead, nuke em just for chits and giggles.

[MH]

Well done MH , you have come up with the final solution.

At least is final....

[Tribesman]

At least is final....
yeah yeah you sad twisted hater of jews..or are you just being a troll again?
After all who apart from an anti semite bigot or a troll could come up with such nonsense as you seem to spout.
What is it your favourite posted link calls it?.......self hating jews:doh:
Loony bin material

[MH]

yeah yeah you sad twisted hater of jews..or are you just being a troll again?
After all who apart from an anti semite bigot or a troll could come up with such nonsense as you seem to spout.
What is it your favourite posted link calls it?.......self hating jews:doh:
Loony bin material

WTF do you want from my Jewishness lol.
Go drink some whisky loosen up get laid smoke pot sniff glue...pray to holly mary.
Have fun...

[Stealhead]

It is much more complex than that.What happens if we did say nuke Pakistan how does China(a very close ally of Pakistan) react to this?How does Russia react to this? Two nations that can attack use with nuclear weapons at this very moment. Things are never as simple as push the button I'm afraid.Also the nukes that Pakistan has lack the range to even reach the US.But if certain factions that support the extremists could have a coup and over throw the weak government and then we are in real trouble.It is wiser to solve this issue by different means such getting the more moderate non-Taliban supporting factions in better control.Pakistan has a very weak government and that causes all the problems if we actually tried to solve this problem(which we currently do not we just give them money and hope that everything works out)If Pakistan and Afghanistan simply had governments that where not weak and corrupt(or at least much less so enough to stand on their own) it would go a long way and solve most of the problems in that part of the world this is very possible because many Pakistanis have been found to dislike the Taliban because violence caused by them has spread into much of the country so the majority of Pakistanis dislike the extremists do not believe those clips that you see of hundreds of Pakistanis protesting against the US or for the Taliban it is very common for groups to hire people to show up so most of the protestors are there because they got paid and they could care less about what they supposedly protesting.Most of the extremist support comes form outside Pakistan and they take advantage of the situation.For example in Pashtun society Imams traditionally received much less respect than tribal elders received it was the influence of outside groups "educating" young boys that gave the Imams much more power and influence.

[MH]

It is much more complex than that.What happens if we did say nuke Pakistan how does China(a very close ally of Pakistan) react to this?How does Russia react to this? Two nations that can attack use with nuclear weapons at this very moment. Things are never as simple as push the button I'm afraid.Also the nukes that Pakistan has lack the range to even reach the US.But if certain factions that support the extremists could have a coup and over throw the weak government and then we are in real trouble.It is wiser to solve this issue by different means such getting the more moderate non-Taliban supporting factions in better control.Pakistan has a very weak government and that causes all the problems if we actually tried to solve this problem(which we currently do not we just give them money and hope that everything works out)If Pakistan and Afghanistan simply had governments that where not weak and corrupt(or at least much less so enough to stand on their own) it would go a long way and solve most of the problems in that part of the world.

You can put this fraction or that fraction in charge and you still come out with forceful regime ruling nuke armed country while the people are in anti west dark ages mentality.
Nuklear stick is too dangerous for them to have no matter how you look at it.

[Torplexed]

At the end of the day the majority of the supply lines to the US troops in Afghanistan go through Pakistan. So if we want our boys & girls to eat and shoot, we're stuck dealing with them certainly as long as we are in Afghanistan.

[Jimbuna]

I'd suggest cutting their aid and build closer ties with India but the question I'm asking myself is....would this push Pakistan further towards the extremists or are they already as close as they can get?

[Anthony W.]

I'm fine with people of other religions (and those with no religion - so long as they don't think less of me for having one) but there are some things I won't tolerate in religions.

If your religion says that it is your god's mission for you to kill everyone who doesn't believe in him, I won't tolerate that. If your books/scrolls/whatever else I'm not mentioning encourages the persecution of people that think differently, I'm not okay with that.

I'm a Roman Catholic. Are there things I don't like about things that have happened in the past and are going on now? Sure. Pope Gregory was a nut job (he started the Crusades). But nowhere in the New Testament does it say anything about being obligated to kill non believers.

Fact of the matter is, currently, we are at war with MUSLIM extremists. We are not at war with Christian extremists or Buddhist extremists. No bones about it, this was is being fought against members of a certain religious sect. No, the war isn't because of the religion/sect - its because of what members of it did.

Why did I post this reply? I'm not really sure. I forgot about mid way through. *Points at self* I'm with stupid, haha

[MH]

Why did I post this reply? I'm not really sure. I forgot about mid way through. *Points at self* I'm with stupid, haha

You got scared reading the last comments?:har:

[Platapus]

But nowhere in the New Testament does it say anything about being obligated to kill non believers.



Is it your position that the Old Testament has absolutely no role in christanity?

[Lord_magerius]

I'm fine with people of other religions (and those with no religion - so long as they don't think less of me for having one) but there are some things I won't tolerate in religions.

If your religion says that it is your god's mission for you to kill everyone who doesn't believe in him, I won't tolerate that. If your books/scrolls/whatever else I'm not mentioning encourages the persecution of people that think differently, I'm not okay with that.

I'm a Roman Catholic. Are there things I don't like about things that have happened in the past and are going on now? Sure. Pope Gregory was a nut job (he started the Crusades). But nowhere in the New Testament does it say anything about being obligated to kill non believers.

Fact of the matter is, currently, we are at war with MUSLIM extremists. We are not at war with Christian extremists or Buddhist extremists. No bones about it, this was is being fought against members of a certain religious sect. No, the war isn't because of the religion/sect - its because of what members of it did.

Why did I post this reply? I'm not really sure. I forgot about mid way through. *Points at self* I'm with stupid, haha

/\ /\ This +1

Apart from being a catholic that is ;)

I'd suggest cutting their aid and build closer ties with India but the question I'm asking myself is....would this push Pakistan further towards the extremists or are they already as close as they can get?

I would agree with this. I am not saying every Pakistani is a radical muslim ( I know you're not too Jim) I have Pakistani neighbours who hate what is going on, are ashamed of their religion (because of what a minority of asshats have done) and are ashamed of their fellow countrymen who believe in the stupid radical ideology. I will say though that the North West provinces of Pakistan, especially those close to the Afghan border are slowly being taken over by radical idealism. It has been a slow process, but these worms are working their way into higher governmental positions. If the rot is set from inside, how are you to know it is going on? Especially when Pakistan governs these sectors but central government really has no idea what is going on out there. These people have been in place for the last couple of decades. Changing the same with the same, don't forget 20 - 30 years ago the US supported the Taliban. All things change, people generally don't notice the more overt changes too. The louder you shout, the less people hear and the more they ignore you. Now imagine 20 years of paying close attention to a region but not really paying attention, if you know what I mean. Idiots rule and the rest of the world wonders what happened.
It's the way of things. I'm not looking for aggro from anyone after this post, so rather than the "OMFG you're an talibanz" which is usual on here, just take it as my two cents and leave it at that.

[Sledgehammer427]

I think once we bring in the SEALs we are basically giving diplomacy the middle finger.

Pakistan should just let it go. We got 'im. We left. Done deal.

EDIT: Loving the fact my opinion gets its own page.

[Anthony W.]

Is it your position that the Old Testament has absolutely no role in christanity?

No - but the New Testament does take precedence

[MH]

No - but the New Testament does take precedence

Its Taliban thread.
The religious one is next door.

[Anthony W.]

Its Taliban thread.
The religious one is next door.

Memory = jogged

My final point was going to be that if a country is ruled by theocracy of one of the violent sects mentioned, we are thusly at war with them by default.

[Bakkels]

I think once we bring in the SEALs we are basically giving diplomacy the middle finger.

Pakistan should just let it go. We got 'im. We left. Done deal.

EDIT: Loving the fact my opinion gets its own page.

Well I can't disagree with that, but I can also completely understand the point of the Pakistani government. It completely makes sense.
Consider something like this happening in your country. You'd be all 'Wtf? they just dropped some soldiers in our country?' So the Pakistani government has to hold up face to their people. (Is that an expression? anyway, you know what I mean)

My guess is the White House have (probably a couple of hours before) informed the Pakistani government of what they were about to do.
Pakistan let the US go ahead, and gets rid of Bin Laden (it's also a load off their chest), and afterwards they get the opportunity to 'struggle' a little, because diplomatically it's not entirely correct.
But this way some more Islamic groups (read: votes) wouldn't be too pissed off. It's politics. The rules of the game are the same all over the world ;)

[MH]

I'm not sure about the warning but the rest is probably partly true.
Particularly the reason behind the complaining.

[Stealhead]

You can put this fraction or that fraction in charge and you still come out with forceful regime ruling nuke armed country while the people are in anti west dark ages mentality.
Nuklear stick is too dangerous for them to have no matter how you look at it.

That is not necessarily true by having a more stable government it is possible that they and India can reconcile some differences nothing is impossible.Taking out there nuclear weapons in regular strikes is much more difficult than it sounds I am sure that they well expect this kind of attack as it is possible for India to attempt it.

As I said it is known that the majority of Pakistanis dislike the Taliban because it has begun to cause unrest all over the country we can use this to our advantage or do nothing and risk that the Pakistani Taliban and supporters take over and then we'd have a real ---- storm.That our find ways to get those who are more friendly to the west in power which would result in a more aggressive action aginst Taliban sanctuaries in the border region which provide aid,support,and training to the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Provoking by attacking the warheads would do nothing but insure that they side fully against us and then we'd be truly screwed and merely cause our troops in Afghanistan to be grossly outnumbered and make an already bad conflict much worse.

It could also further de-stabilize the region as India could use the chance to attack Pakistan and then China who dislikes India they have fought each other before in 1962 could likely go to war with India.Make one wrong move in this region and it will be very bad news.

[Bakkels]

That is not necessarily true by having a more stable government it is possible that they and India can reconcile some differences nothing is impossible.Taking out there nuclear weapons in regular strikes is much more difficult than it sounds I am sure that they well expect this kind of attack as it is possible for India to attempt it.

As I said it is known that the majority of Pakistanis dislike the Taliban because it has begun to cause unrest all over the country we can use this to our advantage or do nothing and risk that the Pakistani Taliban and supporters take over and then we'd have a real ---- storm.That our find ways to get those who are more friendly to the west in power which would result in a more aggressive action in Taliban sanctuaries in the border region which provide aid,support,and training to the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Provoking by attacking the warheads would do nothing but insure that they side fully against us and then we'd be truly screwed and merely cause our troops in Afghanistan to be grossly outnumbered in make an already bad conflict much worse.

It could also furhter de-stablize the region as India could use the chance to attack Pakistan and then China who dislikes India they have fought each other before in 1962.Make one wrong move in this region and it will be very bad news.

Yep. I can do nothing but approve.

However, what concerns me is Mh's post.
You can put this fraction or that fraction in charge and you still come out with forceful regime ruling nuke armed country while the people are in anti west dark ages mentality.
Nuklear stick is too dangerous for them to have no matter how you look at it.

Please elaborate. What is forceful about Pakistan's regime? What do you really know about that country? What can you tell me about it factually?
OBL is dead. Now give me one good reason why we should still interfere with Pakistan's business.

[MH]

It could also further de-stabilize the region as India could use the chance to attack Pakistan and then China who dislikes India they have fought each other before in 1962 could likely go to war with India.Make one wrong move in this region and it will be very bad news.

You have taken this too far-dooms day
I don't think that India or China are looking for war with each other or Pakistan.
The coutries are currently too busy with themselves.

If USA can leave the region ensuring stability in Afghanistan and Pakistan then let it be.
Ten years of this war is more than enough.
If USA just packs the bags then simply it would be better for Pakistanis not to have nukes or for USA to have good plan for the country when needed.

Pakistan is a country that supports taliban then it doesn't.
Depends which direction you look-a sort of democracy:D.
Its messed place with nukes and weak Islamic democracy coalition where each side looks in different direction.
The money that Pakistan receives is a bribe for good behavior.

[MH]

Please elaborate. What is forceful about Pakistan's regime? What do you really know about that country? What can you tell me about it factually?
.

Dont be mad at me.....i read wikipedia:oops:

[Stealhead]

Well that is your downfall there a multitude of far more reliable sources than wiki.

We already know that leaving Afghanistan to its own devices without a stable government is a very bad idea that is how we got into the current situation in the first place because we left them behind and failed them in after the Soviets left in 1989.

This is why we rebuilt Germany and Japan and ensured that they had stable goverments after WWII because we learned the hard way after WWI that not doing so only results in you getting involved in a conflict all over again.We can set up Afghanistan with a stable government that does not need much foreign help in security.The under lying issue is no matter who is in control in Pakistan they will always (and rightly so) see Afghanistan as a "buffer" state to their own security therefore it is vital that the west try to also insure that the Pakistani government is more stable than it is at the current time.Both of these things are very possible.People just need to understand that both nations tie into each other and if one is weak the other will fail(to be friendly to western governments).We simply have to have to insure that moderates are in control of the government if they are they can easily take care of the small numbers of Pakistani military and ISI that are the problem.The killing of OBL may be more of a benefit in this situation than it seems as the majority of the non extremist supporting populace may feel that the US did not inform the Pakistani Goverment because of portions being un-trustworthy(as most Americans feel short of the ones who are granola eaters and are in love with Julian Assange) and they may demand that something be done about cleaning out the military and ISI of these elements which would clear the way for the Pakistani government to more aggressively deal with the Pakistani Taliban(which is a threat to even the current government) in the Federally Administered Tribal Regions.

And I am not talking about a doomsday situation I am simply stating that this region could be become highly un-stable very easily long term wise China and India see each other as competing for the same interests India is China's biggest threat in the region militarily India and Pakistan do not see eye to eye at all and barely avoid war as it is now so an unstable event like extremist supporting factions taking full control in Pakistan would result in military action by India.Even though China see extremism as a threat they will see India waring with Pakistan and possibly controlling all or some it as a much larger threat to Chinese interests.

[MH]

Well that is your downfall there a multitude of far more reliable sources than wiki.
.

Just kidding...not that i STUDIED Pakistan.

[MH]

This is why we rebuilt Germany and Japan and ensured that they had stable goverments after WWII because we learned the hard way after WWI that not doing so only results in you getting involved in a conflict all over again.We can set up Afghanistan with a stable government that does not need much foreign help in security.The under lying issue is no matter who is in control in Pakistan they will always (and rightly so) see Afghanistan as a "buffer" state to their own security therefore it is vital that the west try to also insure that the Pakistani government is more stable than it is at the current time.Both of these things are very possible.People just need to understand that both nations tie into each other and if one is weak the other will fail(to be friendly to western governments).
.

I don't think that Germany or Japan are good analogies to Pakistan Afghanistan Libya.....or Iraq
Don't think just technicalities think mentality and traditions of the regions.

[Stealhead]

Sure they are when WWII ended we made sure to set up governments that where friendly to the West.I am not even talking about Libya or Iraq these are different situations.But this is how the world works larger nation states try to ensure that smaller and weaker states have governments that are friendly insuring stability in a region.

I have already shown that I have an understanding of Pashtun culture so I am doing as you said:"Don't think just technicalities think mentality and traditions of the regions"
There has been a large foreign pro extremist influence in Pashtun regions since the Soviet Afghan War that goes against Pashtun tradition basically these foreign elements are taking advantage of poor education and clan level differences in the region to spread their agenda.At the same time a Pashtun man in Afghanistan took in a seriously wounded US Navy SEAL in 2006 that was being chased down by Taliban fighters.The Taliban knew that the SEAL had been taken in according to Pashtun codes and they demanded he be turned over the Pashtun man did not do so and the Taliban had no choice but to leave because if they had forced their way in to kill a person under protection the entire village would attack the Taliban fighters according to Pashtun "laws" so to speak.

Are you even reading what I have posted or are you simply trying to argue?Some of your posts seem to point at the later:hmmm:.I dont see you posting any valid counter points to anything I have posted.

[Platapus]

No - but the New Testament does take precedence

Its Taliban thread.
The religious one is next door.

:D you are right, perhaps if there is interest we can have an "Old Testament. applicable or not" thread. :D In any case this question should not hijack this thread.