How Do You Sink Ships In 1943 onwards...

[SilentSnake]

All the ships have radar and you cannot keep up with them submerged. What are the tactics?

[Gerald]

Have you tried any tactics, :hmm2:

[SilentSnake]

Theirs destroyers everywhere protecting the convoy. I guess Im asking does radar have any blind spots etc ... and I need some good training :)

[Gerald]

In 1943, enemy radar equipment,was more softicated an was a u-boats had, and the equipment that existed among the Germans was not 100% sure, and while using the equipment, so you reveal your location, so it was under real conditions during WWII,read a little about the real conditions,some links

http://www.uboat.net/technical/radar.htm

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/ASW-51/ASW-14.html

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/u-boats.htm

[King_Zog]

If you are having trouble penetrating the destroyer screens then shoot from long range from outside of the convoy. With a bit of practice shooting from 5-6KM is perfectly doable aslong as the visibility isn't too horrid. You might miss out on some juicy targets sailing in the far columns, but you'll sink ships this way.

Also try not to 'chase' convoys, plot your intercepts so you arrive ahead of them and in a favourable position to observe the convoy's composition and/or begin your attack.

You may also want to try long range shooting with the ladder pattern FAT torpedos, if you can get the hang of programming them then they should give good results, they may be especially useful if the visibility and weather conditions are not favourable for long range attacks on specific targets with straight running torpedos.

edit: The back section of the GWX manual explains some good tactics for convoy attacks.

[Jimbuna]

You asked for tactics yes?

Here is one method.....

Track the convoy using hydrophones until you have a reasonable estimation of the course they are on.

Plot it on your navigation map then move away until you are beyond their radar range.

Surface and go at full speed to an interception point ahead of said predicted course.

Lie in wait and first sign of them submerge and wait.

SINK EM ALL!! http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[SilentSnake]

Thanks guys, makes sense. What actually happened to prompt me writing this was i was about 8000m from a large cargo. I then noticed two small river class warships approaching me. I was not sure initially if they saw me however when I realised, I launched all 4 bow torpedoes towards two ships including the large cargo. I then crash dived to 115m and the river class did bugger all really and i got away. So this poses two questions, how do I know if the warships saw me or their radar detected me ( I did not get radar signals detected at that time, although I did when I surfaced for the attack chasing the convoy ) and unfortunately all but one of my torpedoes prematurely detonated, the waters were quite choppy, do you think this was the cause or just bad luck. My other torpedo missed. :cry:

Thanks

[Jimbuna]

Convoy escorts have intermittent 'loops' scripted into their wayponts and will often leave the convoy for a short sweep.

They'll usually pick up speed if they see you and or fire their weapons if your in range or put on their searchlight if it is dark.

Another method of knowing would be if your stealth meter changed from green to read (presuming you have it enabled).

[King_Zog]

So this poses two questions, how do I know if the warships saw me or their radar detected me ( I did not get radar signals detected at that time, although I did when I surfaced for the attack chasing the convoy ) and unfortunately all but one of my torpedoes prematurely detonated, the waters were quite choppy, do you think this was the cause or just bad luck. My other torpedo missed. :cry:

Thanks

You have to just be aware of and looking for sudden changes in an escort's behavior. If a destroyer detects you it'll generally drop everything it was previously doing and head straight for you at fast speed. If it loses contact on the way, I believe it'll still head straight for where it last detected you, and then start ASW sweeping.

Although be aware that escorts protecting the convoy's flanks will often break formation, speed up and head off on their own for a short ASW sweep of a particular area before returning to the convoy.

And leading escorts will often sail in a fast zig zag pattern ahead of the convoy, occasionally doubling back.

In my experience heavy weather seems to increase the chance of a magnetic prematurely detonating. Also it seems to me that if a magnetic has to make a very long run to target, then the chance of it prematuring is also increased. For long range shots I tend to just use impacts.

[Jimbuna]

I wish I'd said that :DL

[King_Zog]

I wish I'd said that :DL

haha

I didn't realise you'd already replied before I pressed submit :O:

What is the effective radar range of an escort anyway, 10-15K or much less?

[SilentSnake]

They definitely saw me, they were heading straight at me and the closest one had shot of a flare. I can see why the U-Boats did not stand much of a chance with radar. When did sonar come in to pinpoint your depth?

Thanks guys

[Jimbuna]

haha

I didn't realise you'd already replied before I pressed submit :O:

What is the effective radar range of an escort anyway, 10-15K or much less?

LOL...depends on what environmental setting you have, 8 or 16km....but the weather parameters do play a significant part.

[Fish In The Water]

All the ships have radar and you cannot keep up with them submerged. What are the tactics?

To sum it up in a nutshell, you have to use your advances in technology to combat their advances in technology. (i.e. pattern running and acoustic torpedoes allow you to adapt your convoy attack tactics while hopefully staying out of their detection cone).

In other words, learn to attack from range... :yep:

[irish1958]

haha

I didn't realise you'd already replied before I pressed submit :O:

What is the effective radar range of an escort anyway, 10-15K or much less?
I believe all the radar in WWII were line of sight as are FM signals. Sitting atop the tallest masts, probably five or six Km or 10-12 Km.
Air craft a whole lot more.
Starting in 1943, when Adm King finally realized that the German subs meant business, air cover became the rule, with bases in Greenland, Iceland and finally, the Azores. In good weather, light escort carriers added further protection.
U-boats had nowhere to hide, and the war of the Atlantic was really over.
Almost all the U-boats after 1943 were sunk, and shipping loses for the Allies became minimal.
As for tactics after 1943, the best answer would be to transfer to the far East.

[Gerald]

Keep up the good work!

[reignofdeath]

I believe all the radar in WWII were line of sight as are FM signals. Sitting atop the tallest masts, probably five or six Km or 10-12 Km.
Air craft a whole lot more.
Starting in 1943, when Adm King finally realized that the German subs meant business, air cover became the rule, with bases in Greenland, Iceland and finally, the Azores. In good weather, light escort carriers added further protection.
U-boats had nowhere to hide, and the war of the Atlantic was really over.
Almost all the U-boats after 1943 were sunk, and shipping loses for the Allies became minimal.
As for tactics after 1943, the best answer would be to transfer to the far East.

Why is transfering to the east the answer?

[Jimbuna]

Why is transfering to the east the answer?

They were less well prepared.

[Fish In The Water]

They were less well prepared.

That plus the oriental cuisine can't be beat! :D

[irish1958]

That plus the oriental cuisine can't be beat! :D
And, of course, the Hong Cong houses of ill repute:woot:

[sharkbit]

The further I get into the war, Argentinian cuisine sounds better and better.

:)

[Kmdt Kozhein]

My first career ended in 1943. Night time, surface cruising somewhere in CG, surprised by a plane.

I'm only playing my second career now. Still 1940. I dread 1943.

[sharkbit]

I'm running a couple of careers in 1943 right now. Airplanes have been a nuisance but not horrible-yet.
It is attacking convoys that get me. I cringe everytime I get a convoy report or spot one now. I say a quick prayer and move in without too much confidence(I put on a confident face to my crew though :sunny:).
I've lost a couple boats attacking convoys in 1943 to hedgehog equipped escorts-<shudder>.

Back in 1940, I couldn't wait to find a convoy, and it took a while before I saw my first. Now in 1943, I'm happy finding singles.

[Bakkels]

So far, all my careers have ended in '43.
And I didn't want to start all over again in '39, so this time I made kind of a realistic career for myself; I'm in command of U-130, with the correct captain's name, picture, emblems and everything, and I'm going on the same patrol routes as the real U-130. (It was part of operation Drumbeat, and that's now coming up in my game :DL)

However, the real one sunk in..... you guessed it: '43. So I hope the ending of my career will not be so realistic. Fingers crossed...

[Fish In The Water]

Back in 1940, I couldn't wait to find a convoy, and it took a while before I saw my first. Now in 1943, I'm happy finding singles.

A lot of truth in that. Funny how times change. :yep:

[sublynx]

So far, all my careers have ended in '43.
And I didn't want to start all over again in '39, so this time I made kind of a realistic career for myself; I'm in command of U-130, with the correct captain's name, picture, emblems and everything, and I'm going on the same patrol routes as the real U-130. (It was part of operation Drumbeat, and that's now coming up in my game :DL)

However, the real one sunk in..... you guessed it: '43. So I hope the ending of my career will not be so realistic. Fingers crossed...

A very nice idea, I think I might try that as well. Let's hope you change history in 1943, though!

[maillemaker]

The bad news is that the escorts have radar.

The good news is that you have radar detectors, and you can detect them long before they can detect you.

What you want to do is shadow the convoy at a range just enough to detect their radar signals. This is probably between 10K and 16K meters. You will need to enable the 16K mod. Shadow them on the surface long enough to chart their course and speed. Draw a line from the center of the convoy out along its predicted course.

Go to flank speed and plot an "end-around" course, parallel to the target course and then cut over to intercept. After you are at flank speed, note the time to end of course. Should be like 2 hours.

Use the manometer on the side of your map - draw a line from the known speed of the convoy through 120 minutes. Then note on the distance line how far the convoy will have moved in 120 minutes.

Draw a circle centered on the current convoy position of radius equal to the distance computed above.

Where the circle and the convoy course line intersect is where you should end up at the end of your intercept. If necessary, adjust your course and re-compute the convoy end position until you get a good intercept. You will want to make your intercept happen about 10K m in front of the convoy - it does you no good to intercept directly at the convoy.

As you approach your intercept position, you should start to detect the convoy escort's radar again. Verify that they are coming down the predicted course and have not changed course.

If all is well, submerge and go silent. You should be ahead of the convoy and off to the side. Ideally you should be about 3000 meters or so off to the side of the convoy's course.

Then just sit and wait for the convoy to approach. When they get within visual you can pop up your scope for quick looks to refine their course. Don't keep the scope up long.

With luck, you should be able to sneak in beside the leading escort and in front of the flank escort. If you are really good you can get within the convoy undetected.

Fire your torpedoes and head for the deep.

First rule of late-war convoy attack: Never attack a convoy without 100% hull integrity. You will need to go as absolutely deep as your sub can go to have any hope of evading the escorts after the fireworks start.

Steve

[FIREWALL]

The further I get into the war, Argentinian cuisine sounds better and better.

:)

I was just about to post that. :) :up:

[Fish In The Water]

If all is well, submerge and go silent. You should be ahead of the convoy and off to the side. Ideally you should be about 3000 meters or so off to the side of the convoy's course.

Just wondering why you like to start from 3000 meters in this instance? What do you consider to be the pros (in terms of tactical advantage)? :hmmm:

[Obersteuermann]

I'm struggling through late 43-early 44 at the moment. Gave up on DiD because this is just such a challenge that I really don't want to start from scratch!

I'm finding real-world tactics to be the best method of survival. I rarely, if ever, get within visual range of a convoy whilst surfaced. As soon as my lookouts get a visual I'm either speeding away or submerging, depending on my position vis-a-vis the convoy.

Once I'm underwater my total focus is on remaining silent and on evading the leading escorts. The old adage is true; if you don't stay edge-on to the escorts, you WILL be detected. If you get within 400m of an escort, odds are they WILL detect you, unless you're behind them. Correct positioning is key and you mustn't be afraid to raise the scope and manoeuvre accordingly. I tend to come in at one of the corners of the convoy. Stay away from the lead sweeper - they are too unpredictable to evade. Come in between two of the steady escorts instead.

As soon as you're inside the escort screen, start preparing your attack. The one good thing about late war convoys is that you typically have a large number of hi-tonnage targets to shoot at, so the rewards are greater. However, you MUST position yourself in line with the fattest columns before you come too close to the convoy. Once you're within about 3km of the escort screen it just isn't worth risking hard/fast manoeuvres.

The moment you've fired all your forward tubes (and only one of your stern tubes if you're in a Type IX - stern defence is essential), dive. Come to Kleine Fahrt - you want at least 60m of water over your head before the first eels hit. Go to at least 160m. 200m+ is safest. When your torpedoes start exploding you have about a minute, at most, before you should go to silent speed. Dive through the convoy so as to confuse any pursuing escorts. A diagonal course is best.

When picking your course away from the convoy, pay attention to the escort screen. The last thing you want to do is go directly underneath an escort - this is a sure way to get yourself located and sunk. Have a look around before you dive and note where the escorts are, then plan to go between them.


If you are detected at any point, abandon all hope of attacking the convoy. Your immediate priority is saving boat and crew. Dive deep and dive fast. If you have Bold, it works best at depths above 100m or so, but be aware that active sonar is your greatest enemy. I keep a Zaunkoenig in tube V for emergencies, although late war escorts are canny enough to weave until they're within 300m. Really your only hope of escape is blind luck - I'm not very good at escaping from angry escorts!


These notes are by no means perfect, but they've worked three or four times for me now. On each occasion I scored 40k tons without detection.

[irish1958]

^
Thanks, good reply.:rock:

[LGN1]

The bad news is that the escorts have radar.

The good news is that you have radar detectors, and you can detect them long before they can detect you.

What you want to do is shadow the convoy at a range just enough to detect their radar signals. This is probably between 10K and 16K meters. You will need to enable the 16K mod. Shadow them on the surface long enough to chart their course and speed. Draw a line from the center of the convoy out along its predicted course.

Go to flank speed and plot an "end-around" course, parallel to the target course and then cut over to intercept. After you are at flank speed, note the time to end of course. Should be like 2 hours.

Use the manometer on the side of your map - draw a line from the known speed of the convoy through 120 minutes. Then note on the distance line how far the convoy will have moved in 120 minutes.

Draw a circle centered on the current convoy position of radius equal to the distance computed above.

Where the circle and the convoy course line intersect is where you should end up at the end of your intercept. If necessary, adjust your course and re-compute the convoy end position until you get a good intercept. You will want to make your intercept happen about 10K m in front of the convoy - it does you no good to intercept directly at the convoy.

Steve

When you have mastered this and you want an extended challenge, try this:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=172566

Hunting ships after 1943 becomes really tough and time-consuming.

Cheers, LGN1