Night surface attacks easier TMO2.1

[Armistead]

With 2.0 it seemed much harder than it does with 2.1, 2000 yards was about as close as you could get. I'm now getting within 1400 yards on nights with lite fog and lil to no moon. I even had one escort within 1000 yards that never saw me.

Course once the torps hit, they lite you up and being that close is more dangerous, so no escaping on the surface. so you have to dive anyway. I'll be at decks awash, but stay up enough to keep my engines on. I often wonder how well they hear you, if at all on the surface. If you go decks awash so the electrics come on, they will usually hear you on sonar. Course you're really considered dived, not decks awash then.

In the end I don't guess it matters, probably better off further away where you have a chance to turn and escape before the torps hit.

[Platapus]

Course once the torps hit, they lite you up and being that close is more dangerous, so no escaping on the surface. so you have to dive anyway.


I would think that on the surface would be the only way you could survive. Once they spot you, diving only makes you a sitting quacker.

As I understand the game the sounds of the ships breaking up and the explosions do not mask your sound signal nor interfere with sonar.

[Armistead]

If you're on the surface at 1500 yards, your fubar for the deckguns. That's why I said getting this close doesn't really work out, once the torps hit, they light you up and every deckgun fires at you. I have set up a few using sterns, so I can take off away and that works pretty good.

The problem with going forward, you have to turn to run exposing your broadside and that will always catch you.

With sterns, that gives me about a minute to run away and usually they can't find me, then I can do another end around attacking on the other side.

[WH4K]

I think it's really strange that the escorts don't seem to hear your (very loud!) diesel engines when your're cruising on the surface. Yet, if you submerge and run fast and/or do noisy things (reloading torps etc) within their sonar range, they pick up on it rather quickly.

Of course the above assumes that you have not been eyeballed/caught on radar on the surface.

Am I imagining that, or is there some good reason escorts wouldn't have heard a sub running on the surface?

[Stealhead]

Honestly I dont think that the surface noise detection is off in fact I dont think that one is modeled in game anyway or at least your engines dont make noise to the in game AI but your deckguns and AA guns will.Honestly the odds with WWII technology that you'd spot a submarine on the surface with the naked eye is much more likely than that a vessel would hear your engines(the hydrophones are not meant to hear a surface vessels screws your sub in this case)unless you where extremely close if the enemy vessel is underway his own ship and the seas would be louder than your engines 3,000 or more yards which is almost 2 miles away.The surface visual range could be off cant say have not tried getting closer 3,000 or so yards to a target in TMO 2.1 which a not a close as Armistead is talking about and was the same range I usually got within in previous TMOs I don't go closer willingly.

In a real sub it was possible to run on electric engines on the surface but from most books that I have read it seems that most skippers where not overly concerned about their subs diesels running at the low speeds making enough noise to be heard at all by lookouts at the ranges they where planning to attack from they'd be running at so as to avoid a tell tale wake.
It seems only to have been a concern at very very close range and more so when they where trying to sneak past a vessel rather than attack it or one that was on the lookout and not underway but sitting and waiting.

To be safe in game you could get into attack position well in advance and wait at all stop for the target and even set your decks awash then you wont be making any noise if the game can hear it or not and be harder to see.I do know that the game does not take into account colors at all your sub could be bright orange if you want.

[TorpX]

I think it's really strange that the escorts don't seem to hear your (very loud!) diesel engines when your're cruising on the surface. Yet, if you submerge and run fast and/or do noisy things (reloading torps etc) within their sonar range, they pick up on it rather quickly.

Of course the above assumes that you have not been eyeballed/caught on radar on the surface.

Am I imagining that, or is there some good reason escorts wouldn't have heard a sub running on the surface?

My comments are based on what I've read about RL, not TMO.
Most of the noise made by a moving sub is from the screws, not the engines, per se. I'm not sure about them hearing you on the surface, but I don't know why they wouldn't be able to. Possibly wave action would make it harder. I think this was one the the reasons why sub captains tried to brake into convoys; once inside the escorts could not distinguish the subs noise from the merchants'.

O'Kane mentions in one of his books that the later fleetboats were much quieter, due to the fact that the screws had been redesigned, to reduce the cavitation which caused most of the noise.

As far as the game AI is concerned, I only know what has been posted by others (mainly Ducimus), but it seems the game sensors/ detection schemes are oversimplified to a great degree, and apt to be rather unrealistic.

[Mescator]

In a real sub it was possible to run on electric engines on the surface but from most books that I have read it seems that most skippers where not overly concerned about their subs diesels running at the low speeds making enough noise to be heard at all by lookouts at the ranges they where planning to attack from they'd be running at so as to avoid a tell tale wake.

Having just finished reading Thunder Below, Fluckey used electric engines on the surface fairly frequently to silence the ship.

With that said, he did a lot of inshore work for the rockets and blowing up the train track, so he was probably more concerned than most.

[Stealhead]

From most things I have read its seems that skippers felt pretty confident that they could either sneak at low speeds with diesels running(maybe only one going) or by using the electric motors.Like you said seems they felt confident that the own convoys noise would mask the subs engines.

I think some are thinking of two different things here though one being the concern that ones diesels might be heard the others are talking about the sounds of the screws and shaft components.The later would not be very relevant while running on the surface as any enemy hydrophones would not be able to listen to screws of anything running on the surface(I know the subs gear can in game but that is inaccurate) such as a sub running on the surface that was one reason why this was used in the first place because it was easier to get in close on the surface where they would not be able to use hydrophones on you.And at night on a moonless eve a sub could get pretty close in and have a very high chance of not being spotted until after striking and staring his escape some times the IJN not even realizing that the sub had struck on the surface and getting thrown a total curve ball.And the tactic can work in the game as well.