The national debt is the largest national security threat!

[Freiwillige]

Or so they say here.

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=60621


Well it isn't like we didn't see this coming, Politicians pass the buck tell we are all...........:D

[Fish In The Water]

It may well be true, but the date on the story is August 27, 2010.

Just saying, it'd be nice to get something a little more up-to-date. :sunny:

[TLAM Strike]

What is China going to do? Corner us in a alley and bust our kneecaps for not paying up? :haha:

[Bakkels]

"We'll make you an offel you can't lefuse!"

[GoldenRivet]

the national financial position is the greatest threat to national security.

eventually - any way you slice it - the Unites States government WILL be doing more or less exactly what the USSR did in 1991.

[Molon Labe]

http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2011/04/defense-in-an-age-of-austerity/

The long war against extremism has cost us well over $2T in direct costs alone and the interest compounds daily. Meanwhile the country’s demographic aging, rising health care costs, and insatiable appetite for entitlements has placed our great Nation’s balance sheet deep in the red. A culture of entitlement over sacrifice and shared obligation has eroded our stature as a great power and our moral standing. A decade of continued economic pressure, unemployment above 12%, coupled with a determined resistance on the part of the nation’s elected officials to come to any serious resolution of the country’s fiscal crisis has brought us to the point of peril.

Worth reading the whole thing.

@TLAM it doesn't matter if they make us pay, what matters is that we won't be able to afford anything and we won't be able to get loans to fill the gap (because they know we can't pay).

[gimpy117]

and "national security" is one of the largest causes of the debt. Ironic? yes.

[Skybird]

The debts and the reaction of others to them are the biggest threat not only to security, but in general.

And all in all around 40% of the yearly budget currently go into the military.

Europeans are insane and immoderate over their social budgets, Americans are insane and immoderate over their military budget.

[Takeda Shingen]

I'd say that in the microcosm of recent history, our dependence on oil has been the greatest threat to our national security. It requires us to do business with those that hate us, and also requires that we spend obscene amounts of money in insuring that we are able to mobilize to protect our interests from those very same people.

[Castout]

What is China going to do? Corner us in a alley and bust our kneecaps for not paying up? :haha:

Nah Mr. Hu Jintao only needed to cough a weird cough and every US official in the room would straighten up their posture and quite a number of them would get nervous. :O:


Nightmarish? You bet! :DL

[Torplexed]

What is China going to do? Corner us in a alley and bust our kneecaps for not paying up? :haha:


The US debt is generally in paper like Treasury bonds, bills and notes. Bondholders can't suddenly demand payment on bonds. Since bonds are for a fixed term there's no means by which to extract payment prior to the bonds maturation date. The US government pledged no physical assets when these bonds were sold to foreign parties. All T-Bond holders are unsecured creditors. If the US continues to do well economically, the bondholders get repaid with interest. If the US economy falters, the bondholders get stuck with the consequences.

What China COULD do in lieu of kneecapping, is refuse to buy any more paper. Should the US government make a T-bond offer and not all bonds are purchased, then guess what? The budget deficits cannot be financed, and the government runs out of money. Meaning, no more checks sent out to any government workers, any government contractors, no military personnel, no nothing. And no emergency midnight spending bill in Congress is going to make any difference, Congress can authorize additional deficits all they want, but if the investors don't buy the bonds, then the government has no cash to operate.

Another danger is not of “foreclosure” by foreign bondholders (for which no legal venue exists) but of total collapse of the US Dollar. That would immediately erase trillions of dollars of foreign equity (since T-bonds are redeemable only in US Dollars, not UK Pounds, Yen, Euros, or gold bullion).

[mookiemookie]

I'd say that in the microcosm of recent history, our dependence on oil has been the greatest threat to our national security. It requires us to do business with those that hate us, and also requires that we spend obscene amounts of money in insuring that we are able to mobilize to protect our interests from those very same people.

Spot on. I agree 100%.

The US debt is generally in paper like Treasury bonds, bills and notes. Bondholders can't suddenly demand payment on bonds. Since bonds are for a fixed term there's no means by which to extract payment prior to the bonds maturation date. The US government pledged no physical assets when these bonds were sold to foreign parties. All T-Bond holders are unsecured creditors. If the US continues to do well economically, the bondholders get repaid with interest. If the US economy falters, the bondholders get stuck with the consequences.

What China COULD do in lieu of kneecapping, is refuse to buy any more paper. Should the US government make a T-bond offer and not all bonds are purchased, then guess what? The budget deficits cannot be financed, and the government runs out of money. Meaning, no more checks sent out to any government workers, any government contractors, no military personnel, no nothing. And no emergency midnight spending bill in Congress is going to make any difference, Congress can authorize additional deficits all they want, but if the investors don't buy the bonds, then the government has no cash to operate.

Another danger is not of “foreclosure” by foreign bondholders (for which no legal venue exists) but of total collapse of the US Dollar. That would immediately erase trillions of dollars of foreign equity (since T-bonds are redeemable only in US Dollars, not UK Pounds, Yen, Euros, or gold bullion).

Spot on as well. What people fail to realize is that our relationship with China is symbiotic - we need them to buy our debt just as much as they need us to buy their manufactured goods. The United States is the largest consumer market in the world, and they have a vested interest in keeping us solvent and keeping our economy healthy.

For a little perspective: China owns less than 10% of outstanding US Treasury debt. US Individuals and institutions own around 42%. (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/whom-does-the-us-government-really-owe-money-2010.png)

[Armistead]

and "national security" is one of the largest causes of the debt. Ironic? yes.

Just think, the failed wars with interest will amount to about 2T. We'll be paying interest on the wars for 30 years. Add to that the military budget for our over 700 bases...whew.

Was it Jefferson that said America would be destroyed from the inside..

[onelifecrisis]

The US national debt may be the largest by total, but as a percentage of your GDP it's about average, so don't panic.

[mookiemookie]

Just think, the failed wars with interest will amount to about 2T. We'll be paying interest on the wars for 30 years. Add to that the military budget for our over 700 bases...whew.

Was it Jefferson that said America would be destroyed from the inside..

He also said "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

and it was also Eisenhower who warned us of the Military Industrial Complex. Shame we don't listen.

[Armistead]

He also said "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

and it was also Eisenhower who warned us of the Military Industrial Complex. Shame we don't listen.


Eisenhower was smart, he saw where the war machine was heading...Course greed comes first.

[gimpy117]

Eisenhower was smart, he saw where the war machine was heading...Course greed comes first.

well that and the fact that the american people don't ever want a war that costs anything in a human toll. So it's spend spend spend so nobody had to bat an eye like they did in Vietnam over the american boys who died for unclear reasons.

[yubba]

So did the S and P fire a warning shot across the bow of the U.S.S Unsubstainable, as she plows through the sea of red ink toward the rocks of bankruptcy ??????:woot::hmmm:

[mookiemookie]

So did the S and P fire a warning shot across the bow of the U.S.S Unsubstainable, as she plows through the sea of red ink toward the rocks of bankruptcy ??????:woot::hmmm:

Who cares what the incompetent and corrupt crooks at S&P have to say?

[Armistead]

well that and the fact that the american people don't ever want a war that costs anything in a human toll. So it's spend spend spend so nobody had to bat an eye like they did in Vietnam over the american boys who died for unclear reasons.

It's not so much about our human toll, the use of iron bombs blasting civilians is a thing of the past, now that we have such media coverage.
For our government to fight limited wars for profit, they have to be careful with the loss of troops so they can continue.

[Growler]

For our government to fight limited wars for profit, they have to be careful with the loss of troops so they can continue.

Yeah, cause if they're not, we'll just...

well, we'll tell...

... well...


It's not like the government is all that accountable to the public anymore.

[Schroeder]

It's not so much about our human toll, the use of iron bombs blasting civilians is a thing of the past, now that we have such media coverage.

Sorry for the OT but:
Talking of media coverage and bombs, has the coverage of the air strikes on Libya also ceased to exist in the US? Here in Germany you see no footage whatsoever of the planes. All you get is funerals for dead rebels and wounded civilians but nothing from our side. Almost as if Nato had ordered a news blockade. :hmm2:

[TorpX]

Just think, the failed wars with interest will amount to about 2T. We'll be paying interest on the wars for 30 years. Add to that the military budget for our over 700 bases...whew.



Wars end...........................Entitlements never do.

[Skybird]

Who cares what the incompetent and corrupt crooks at S&P have to say?
The system - because it's designed to do that. Call it for facts or just for psychology - the outcome is the same.

America did not complain about its rating agencies when the spelled doom over other countries. So why now? Because this time one is sitting at the receiving end of the line?

[Skybird]

Sorry for the OT but:
Talking of media coverage and bombs, has the coverage of the air strikes on Libya also ceased to exist in the US? Here in Germany you see no footage whatsoever of the planes. All you get is funerals for dead rebels and wounded civilians but nothing from our side. Almost as if Nato had ordered a news blockade. :hmm2:
Or the German government has ordered a blockade of the media - to get its own egg-dance out of the public's attention focus.

[TorpX]

Sorry for the OT but:
Talking of media coverage and bombs, has the coverage of the air strikes on Libya also ceased to exist in the US? Here in Germany you see no footage whatsoever of the planes. All you get is funerals for dead rebels and wounded civilians but nothing from our side. Almost as if Nato had ordered a news blockade. :hmm2:

I've seen very little coverage of Libya lately. Our media has a very short attention span and since there is nothing the Obama administration can take credit for, they have no desire to cover it.

[Armistead]

Wars end...........................Entitlements never do.


Since when, we've been in wars and conflicts almost non stop for the last 50 years and looks like it's gonna get worse.

[mookiemookie]

The system - because it's designed to do that. Call it for facts or just for psychology - the outcome is the same.

America did not complain about its rating agencies when the spelled doom over other countries. So why now? Because this time one is sitting at the receiving end of the line?

S&P received a lot of money to rate junk paper as "AAA" and thus contributed to the financial crisis. S&P executives should have been led out of their offices in handcuffs. They have lost all credibility. Only a fool would place any faith in their analysis of America or any other country.

That's separate from the issue of America's debt crisis. That's real. But S&P are a bunch of criminals and idiots.

[Armistead]

S&P received a lot of money to rate junk paper as "AAA" and thus contributed to the financial crisis. S&P executives should have been led out of their offices in handcuffs. They have lost all credibility. Only a fool would place any faith in their analysis of America or any other country.

That's separate from the issue of America's debt crisis. That's real. But S&P are a bunch of criminals and idiots.

Isn't it strange, the same people that created the mess are the same ones saying it's getting better and the same in charge of fixing it.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

It's true that China benefits greatly from U.S. as export market and therefore have incentive to keep it going which means buying U.S. bonds. However China as everybody else (at my knowledge) do not have endless cash reserves. Before or later it just simply do not have money to buy bonds.

I believe that China can't accept situation where it's unable to pay to it's soldiers and buy enough 7.62mm rounds for "national security" purposes.

I don't know what will happen when China stops buying. Will American economy simply collapse? Will someone else fund American spending parties?

[Armistead]

The problem is the debt ceiling, we're gonna have to raise it. If we don't our economy will crumble in time. Congress will fight and threaten each other, but they only have a few months to increase it and in the end they will.

Course this is like putting another finger to plug another hole in the Hoover dam. The world economy will be totally different in the future.

[Skybird]

It's true that China benefits greatly from U.S. as export market and therefore have incentive to keep it going which means buying U.S. bonds. However China as everybody else (at my knowledge) do not have endless cash reserves. Before or later it just simply do not have money to buy bonds.

I believe that China can't accept situation where it's unable to pay to it's soldiers and buy enough 7.62mm rounds for "national security" purposes.

I don't know what will happen when China stops buying. Will American economy simply collapse? Will someone else fund American spending parties?
China has started to lower its dependency on the US market, and has started to jump off the dollar, it also has started to reduce it'S US bonds. More and more European economists also start to warn again st investing into US debts any longer. The Swedish Riksbank, the leading bank in Scandinavia, has stopped trading US bonds alltogether. Other big European banks, so I was told on weekend, prepare to follow the example, it is kept hidden to minimise negative shortterm conseqeunces for these banks and to avoid political pressure.

US thinks it is untouchable. But it no longer is. The longer it hesitates to learn that lesson and tries to bully and intimidate others into buying worthless US boinds, the harder the crash on learning day. The US has a fundamental structural problem, and its financial resources have started to break away. For Americnas, this is unimaginable , since America is believed to be what Rome was for Romans: the shining centre of civilisation in a dark universe of barbarism.

And if anyone thinks that China with rising marks would ever accept to endlessly depend on the US while America is in freee fall, then he has not understood whom he is dealing with. It would be incompatible with Chinese self-understanding to be the most superior community on Earth, to accept this injust "coexistence" endlessly, and at their own cost. The dragon has awakened once again, and in the long run he will not accept any poor, bigmouthed debtor as an equal to talk to.

If you read the signs in the news, you can see that it already has started. It is the small nuances that are important.

The US, in all this historic change, will either accept to relaunch, and then on a much smaller scale accept a place in the second row of seats only, by becoming bancrupt. Or it will reject the simple facts and try to turn the wheel of time bvackwards - and by that become most likely a rogue nation itself and a totalitarian dictatorship fighting against all odds, and all others. That are the two most likely scenarios I can imagine, currently, ignoring unpredictable events like global pandemics, meteor impacts and such things.

[krashkart]

Well said, Skybird. I think the past ten years alone should have taught us a thing or two. We are about to get our teeth kicked in, and unfortunately we've been ignoring the warnings for years.

Not to knock or insult my own country, but our culture has (or at least "had") a nasty habit of thinking that we're the best thing since buttered toast. Pride often goeth before a fall, right? I have sincere doubts that we will remain as a major power for much longer. While sad in a way, it is also not entirely surprising that this would come to pass. Eventually, all empires must collapse under their own enormity. :yep:

Interesting times ahead, yes? :hmmm::lol:

[Skybird]

Well, America expects others to behave in a self-damaging and stupid way - and that is a sign of a certain kind of stupdity - at least blindness - on its own side. It is not clever to depend on a "strategy" that bases on the other's cooperation by acting stupid.

All these are developements for which the mighty and powerful and expensive American military is no suitable tool. Instead, due to its costs, it serves as a catalyst for these developements and causes costs to the internal structure of the country: the money it takes to run this military is not available for education, modernising the economic structure, the powergrid, the traffic network...

Ironic, from a historian's point of view.

It'S sad, in a way, since there is so much potential still left. But it gets wasted by not making necessary, dramatic changes to the country'S general course and setup. It seems it wants to stay like it has been, forever, and tramples with the feet like a stubborn child that does not get what it wants.

But every box of Monopoly gets delivered with only so many toy notes of money, and not more. Sorry, kid.

[Armistead]

It's already obvious politicains are preparing us for a two class soceity. It seems politicians are more interested on how to keep and create wealth globally for a few. I have no doubt somewhere in our future economics will be run by some world council. All leading economist say were headed for collapse, you just won't hear it from the government. Slowly as possible government will move more and more into poverty, a lil at a time so chaos doesn't ensue. All studies show 50% of the next generation won't have medical insurance, medicare and caid can't be funded. They've ignored the fixes for 20 years, now it's too late, millions will suffer. Fuel will be an issue, food, wages lowered. Anyone under 50 knows they can forget seeing all the money they paid into SS and medicare, etc..

We've had 11 years in which the Social Security program did not take enough in FICA taxes to pay the current year's benefits, so they use Trust Bonds to make up the difference.

We're nearing a 100 trillion in total debt across the board, money spent or money currently owed, 60 trillion in medicare alone to those paid in...but it's all gone. Add SS and the national debt, state debt, etc...all that money went somewhere.

I think we all know we've longed crossed the point of it can be fixed.

It's really no different than any past history of great nations. Again, the middle class will be a thing of the past.

[gimpy117]

yes, thats true, the upper class wield far too much power in this country, soon it will be either you are rich or poverty. I am scared for my future

[Skybird]

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/980/2cas2o8kw.jpg (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/2cas2o8kw.jpg/)
From: Der Tagesspiegel

[TorpX]

The situation is not good, that's for sure.

I think we all know we've longed crossed the point of it can be fixed.


I believe the nation's problems can still be fixed, but people have to make an effort. I'm mainly talking about our leadership here. Borrowing, spending and printing dollars won't fix anything though. Incredibly, Most Democrats and many Republicans don't seem to grasp the situation. They appear to be in complete denial.

As Skybird said, the plane is running out of fuel and will go down one way or another. We can either make a rough landing now or pretend nothing is wrong and crash later. Capt. Obama wants to fly towards Socialism, and will pilot us out over the ocean. Democrats say anyone who disagrees is an extremist. The passengers get to vote in November. We'll see what happens then.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

The situation is not good, that's for sure.



I believe the nation's problems can still be fixed, but people have to make an effort. I'm mainly talking about our leadership here. Borrowing, spending and printing dollars won't fix anything though. Incredibly, Most Democrats and many Republicans don't seem to grasp the situation. They appear to be in complete denial.

As Skybird said, the plane is running out of fuel and will go down one way or another. We can either make a rough landing now or pretend nothing is wrong and crash later. Capt. Obama wants to fly towards Socialism, and will pilot us out over the ocean. Democrats say anyone who disagrees is an extremist. The passengers get to vote in November. We'll see what happens then.

I would like to add that First Officer What-Ever-His-Name-Was? wants to take heading to Capitalism. Cut taxes, not to touch anyones entitlements or benefits and see if fuel tank magically fills...

P.S. No I'm not saying that First Officer is any better than Captain nor otherwise around.

[MH]

I would like to add that First Officer What-Ever-His-Name-Was? wants to take heading to Capitalism. Cut taxes, not to touch anyones entitlements or benefits and see if fuel tank magically fills...

American Dream.....


Maybe Americans need to accept the fact that taxes need to be uhm....adjasted.

[magic452]

To adjust taxes would only be giving them a bigger shovel to dig an even deeper pit for us to fall into. They would just spend it on pork barrel projects or social engineering (vote getting) programs.

NOTHING at all would be done about the deficit or debt just more spending.
The government needs to get out of most of the businesses it's in.

"He who governs least governs best." Don't remember who said that.

Is it too late, maybe but one thing for sure is we will find out soon enough.
If there isn't some real movement on spending in the up coming battle over the debt ceiling
there may be little hope left.

Magic

[TorpX]

American Dream.....


Maybe Americans need to accept the fact that taxes need to be uhm....adjasted.
As magic said, this will not work. It has already been tried. When a "compromise" has been reached higher taxes are levied, but the deal soon falls apart, as Congress has little discipline. After the promised spending cuts evaporate, all that is left are the tax increases. Really, the extra tax revenues just encourage Congress to spend more. Furthermore, higher taxes would almost certainly initiate a "double-dip" recession, and likely be counterproductive.

Unfortunately, I think the debt ceiling will be raised again. Very few in Congress seem to have the psychological toughness to do otherwise. I'm not sure they grasp the magnetude of the problem yet. I would not have much hope, were it not for the Tea Party folks. I think it all depends on the next election. If Obama and his counterparts in congress, have another four years to suck the life out of the nation, I think we will be utterly bankrupt.

[mookiemookie]

Unfortunately, I think the debt ceiling will be raised again. Very few in Congress seem to have the psychological toughness to do otherwise.

I'm not sure you fully understand what would happen economically if it were not raised. You would revive the credit crisis of 2008. And you'd make it seem mild in comparison. Treasury yields would skyrocket because of the flood of investors, foreign and domestic, dumping their holdings. In a misguided attempt at austerity, you'd end up bankrupting the country with sky high interest rates. Those higher rates would freeze all borrowing by not only the government, but by business and industry. You'd crash the economy.

Money market funds would break the buck - you'd destroy every pension fund, public fund, retirement fund and investor in the country. You think your city/state/municipality has trouble now? If their cash holdings were wiped out, you'd see trouble for real. Good luck keeping a police force or firefighters when you have no money to pay them.

God help us if the people in charge of things have the same lack of economic understanding as those opposed to raising the debt ceiling do.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

... I think it all depends on the next election. If Obama and his counterparts in congress, have another four years to suck the life out of the nation, I think we will be utterly bankrupt.

Sorry but in my opinion you are little bit unfair to Mr. Obama. Most of the debt he is dealing with is not here because of his actions but inherited from his predecessors (no only Bush Jr.). I don't say Obama is any better but putting all blame to one man (as I undertand your text to mean, correct me as appropriate) is a bit unfair.

[Armistead]

I'm not sure you fully understand what would happen economically if it were not raised. You would revive the credit crisis of 2008. And you'd make it seem mild in comparison. Treasury yields would skyrocket because of the flood of investors, foreign and domestic, dumping their holdings. In a misguided attempt at austerity, you'd end up bankrupting the country with sky high interest rates. Those higher rates would freeze all borrowing by not only the government, but by business and industry. You'd crash the economy.

Money market funds would break the buck - you'd destroy every pension fund, public fund, retirement fund and investor in the country. You think your city/state/municipality has trouble now? If their cash holdings were wiped out, you'd see trouble for real. Good luck keeping a police force or firefighters when you have no money to pay them.

God help us if the people in charge of things have the same lack of economic understanding as those opposed to raising the debt ceiling do.
The Gop knows they must raise the debt ceiling and they will, but they will posture and threaten for political purposes. Obama didn't creat this mess, he inherited it from both parties. Fact is he can do little about it, congress is mostly responsible. Bush with help from both parties started the mad debt. I think both parties lost a time to correct it, everything they do is still politics and special interest. If the GOP were in control, they would've done the same thing Obama did.

[Skybird]

And so the US is set to continue living on tick. Once again it is agreed on that tackling the debt burden - must be left to the next generation. Same song like in the past 50 years. While everybody really thinks this: we do not serve our debt duties anyway - not now, and not in the future. Basta!

Nixon's finance minister brought the American selfishness and irresponsibility to the point when saying: "It is our dollar, but your problem."

But the wakeup day will be coming, and not too far away it is. And then the pain and agony, the depth of the fall will be so much worse.

I must say I will withhold both compassion and sympathy on that day. Both would be completely undeserved.

Not that European politicians think differently. But the American example causes more distortions in the world than that of just one or two European countries, and the USD also is the biggest debtor in known history.

[Growler]

And so the US is set to continue living on tick. Once again it is agreed on that tackling the debt burden - must be left to the next generation. Same song like in the past 50 years. While everybody really thinks this: we do not serve our debt duties anyway - not now, and not in the future. Basta!

Nixon's finance minister brought the American selfishness and irresponsibility to the point when saying: "It is our dollar, but your problem."

But the wakeup day will be coming, and not too far away it is. And then the pain and agony, the depth of the fall will be so much worse.

I must say I will withhold both compassion and sympathy on that day. Both would be completely undeserved.

Not that European politicians think differently. But the American example causes more distortions in the world than that of just one or two European countries, and the USD also is the biggest debtor in known history.

tl;dr: Everything's America's fault.

Your comparisons are irrelevant; never has "known history" seen this many people, with this kind of technology, and this many complex problems.

As for your compassion and sympathy - well, if they're going to walk alongside your patronizing arrogance, go ahead and keep 'em - we're good.

[mookiemookie]

tl;dr: Everything's America's fault.

Your comparisons are irrelevant; never has "known history" seen this many people, with this kind of technology, and this many complex problems.

As for your compassion and sympathy - well, if they're going to walk alongside your patronizing arrogance, go ahead and keep 'em - we're good.

Skybird has correctly predicted 10 out of the last 3 American recessions. :rotfl2:

[TorpX]

I'm not sure you fully understand what would happen economically if it were not raised. You would revive the credit crisis of 2008. And you'd make it seem mild in comparison. Treasury yields would skyrocket because of the flood of investors, foreign and domestic, dumping their holdings. In a misguided attempt at austerity, you'd end up bankrupting the country with sky high interest rates. Those higher rates would freeze all borrowing by not only the government, but by business and industry. You'd crash the economy.

Money market funds would break the buck - you'd destroy every pension fund, public fund, retirement fund and investor in the country. You think your city/state/municipality has trouble now? If their cash holdings were wiped out, you'd see trouble for real. Good luck keeping a police force or firefighters when you have no money to pay them.

God help us if the people in charge of things have the same lack of economic understanding as those opposed to raising the debt ceiling do.

I know that is the conventional wisdom. Maybe you are right, but I am not convinced. I accepted the doom and gloom scenarios at first; now I suspect they are mainly a tool to keep spending. That seems to be the plan, anyway. I said they should not raise the debt ceiling, I didn't say they should default. The Gov't would still have tax revenue. They could still spend money, they would just have to spend LESS.

Let's say you are right and higher debt is mandatory. What happens when the Gov't can't borrow enough? What happens when no one wants to lend? What do you consider a plausible way out of this mess?

Sorry but in my opinion you are little bit unfair to Mr. Obama. Most of the debt he is dealing with is not here because of his actions but inherited from his predecessors (no only Bush Jr.). I don't say Obama is any better but putting all blame to one man (as I undertand your text to mean, correct me as appropriate) is a bit unfair.

I am blaming Obama and he is destroying my country. I THINK OBAMA IS BEING UNFAIR TO ME.

Do you know anything about Obama? Do you know anything about the Federal budget or the U.S. Constitution? Bush was a mediocre leader, he allowed too much spending, without a doubt. Mostly he just kicked the can down the road and comprimised with the Dems.
Obama has spent much more than Bush. Under Bush, the bailouts were sold as an emergency one-shot infusion. Under Obama, we get a 2nd and a 3rd and ......(I've lost count now). All this "Stimulus" and the economy is worse now than before. He has also rammed through "Universal Health Care", which will cost over a trillion dollars and is in fact unconstitutional. The Fed is printing money, so prices are going up and everyone's savings are gradually becoming worthless. He is in short doing everything he can to make the Government larger and hamstring the private sector, when he should be doing the opposite. I could go on, but my fingers would be bleeding by the time I finish. He is, by far, the worst President we have ever had, and considering recent experience with Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, that's saying a lot.



P.S.:

In case you didn't pick up on it. I do resent people who live in foreign countries, having the attitude that I'm too stupid to know what's good for me and I should be grateful Obama is my leader.
IF YOU THINK HE IS SO GREAT - YOU TAKE HIM.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

I am blaming Obama and he is destroying my country. I THINK OBAMA IS BEING UNFAIR TO ME.

Do you know anything about Obama? Do you know anything about the Federal budget or the U.S. Constitution? Bush was a mediocre leader, he allowed too much spending, without a doubt. Mostly he just kicked the can down the road and comprimised with the Dems.
Obama has spent much more than Bush. Under Bush, the bailouts were sold as an emergency one-shot infusion. Under Obama, we get a 2nd and a 3rd and ......(I've lost count now). All this "Stimulus" and the economy is worse now than before. He has also rammed through "Universal Health Care", which will cost over a trillion dollars and is in fact unconstitutional. The Fed is printing money, so prices are going up and everyone's savings are gradually becoming worthless. He is in short doing everything he can to make the Government larger and hamstring the private sector, when he should be doing the opposite. I could go on, but my fingers would be bleeding by the time I finish. He is, by far, the worst President we have ever had, and considering recent experience with Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, that's saying a lot.



P.S.:

In case you didn't pick up on it. I do resent people who live in foreign countries, having the attitude that I'm too stupid to know what's good for me and I should be grateful Obama is my leader.
IF YOU THINK HE IS SO GREAT - YOU TAKE HIM.

Pardon me my cliché question. Did you read what I wrote? I just said that putting all blame to Obama is unfair. I didn't say that blame goes equally to all. CLARIFICATION: Yes. You maybe correct that Obama have "wasted" more money than his predecessors. I still would not put all blame to him as although he may have "wasted" more economical problems still existed there before him. Why is wasted between quotation marks? Because I don't think we will know for sure yet whether spending all that money was useless or not.

My information on Federal budget is not as good as many Americans may have. That is hardly surprising isn't it?

What comes to Obama's "Universal Health Care". In principle I think it's good thing. However with current economical situation U.S. government just can't afford it. Period. Nor it can afford it's military which suck dollars like sponge suck water.

I don't like Obama's economical policies. Endless "stimulation" just will not work. It's nation size version of cardiopulmonary resuscitation. It either works and patient recovers or then not.

I believe to responsible budget policy. With that I mean designing budget so that country can put it in action with their own money (tax revenue etc.). Without endless need to loan money.

What puzzles me is that for some strange reason you seem to think that I almost pray in altar of Holy Obama the Savior. I don't. Although I like him more than religious Republican warmonger who would fit better to church's pulpit tnan White House (Yes. I'm talking about His Majesty King George II The Bush) I don't believe that he is much better than his predecessors.

By the way I don't think you are stupid but based on your last post I don't really believe you are smart either (sorry if I said this too straight). Ofcourse I maybe wrong. After all I'm just dumb European and we and dumb Asians, dumb Africans, dumb Martians et. al. don't always understand all so mighty Americans.

Additionally as my opinion. As long as your all so mighty United States of America with its holy dollar is world class debtor and neck high in yellow liquid but is still willing to stick its head to poo pile in the bottom and refuse to see problem in its financial policies your all mighty country's internal issues are damn much our problem too.

[Skybird]

tl;dr: Everything's America's fault.
Spending more than what your economy can produce in income, is completely your own fault, yes indeed. If I buy too many things and accumulate more debts by credit card than I can pay back by my monthly income, nobody else but me is to blame. And I am the one to find a way to pay back my debts - nobody else.


Your comparisons are irrelevant; never has "known history" seen this many people, with this kind of technology, and this many complex problems.
No, your claim above is irrelevant, because number of people and technology has nothing to do with the basic problem outlined just one paragraph above. Also, America just repeats the very same mistakes european grand powers of the past 4 or 5 centuries have made time and again, practically all major powers have run bancrupt at least once in their history because they maintained bigger militaries on tick and waged more wars with borrowed money than they could afford, and had economical and fiscal structures in their countries that were not able to shoulder the burdens forever.

As for your compassion and sympathy - well, if they're going to walk alongside your patronizing arrogance, go ahead and keep 'em - we're good.
No, you are not. You are hanging on a fiscal drip. And arrogance - it is your nation being too arrogant to realise or admit its pathetic fiscal status and monumental structural economic problems - but nevertheless lecturing others on how to do economics - heavily biased economics tailored to allow you parasytically sucking money that is not yours.

You are walking on often tried paths, many empires before you walked the same paths like you do now. And you learn nothing from their examples and reasons why they fell. Not really bright.

Want to talk of arrogance any longer? You better don't. Sitting in a glass house, you maybe shouldn't throw with stones. You are not the solution to global economic problems nor do you have the potency anymore to provide them - you are one of the most prominent and major reasons for global economic crisis.

[Growler]

Want to talk of arrogance any longer? You better don't. Sitting in a glass house, you maybe shouldn't throw with stones. You are not the solution to global economic problems nor do you have the potency anymore to provide them - you are one of the most prominent and major reasons for global economic crisis.

I stand corrected.

tl;dr: Everything's MY fault.

[Skybird]

I stand corrected.

tl;dr: Everything's MY fault.
No, but maybe of your written language that does not differ between "du" and "ihr". :O:

[DarkFish]

No, but maybe of your written language that does not differ between "du" and "ihr". :O::har:
This did make me LOL:DL