Qaddafi Forces Fire Cluster Bombs Into Civilian Areas

[Gerald]

MISURATA, Libya — Military forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, who have surrounded this city and vowed to crush its anti-Qaddafi rebellion, have been firing into residential neighborhoods with heavy weapons, including cluster bombs that have been banned by much of the world and ground-to-ground rockets, according to the accounts of witnesses and survivors and physical evidence on the ground.

Such “indiscriminate” weapons, which strike large areas with a dense succession of high-explosive munitions, by their nature cannot be fired precisely, and when fired into populated areas place civilians at grave risk.

The use of such weapons could add urgency to the arguments by some countries in NATO, principally Britain and France, that the alliance needs to step up attacks on the Qaddafi forces, to better fulfill the United Nations mandate to protect civilians. And it could place pressure on the United States, which pulled back air power from the war when it ceded control of the campaign to NATO earlier this month.

When asked about the weaponry at a news conference in Berlin, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said she was “not aware” of the specific use of cluster munitions in Misurata, but said, “I’m not surprised by anything that Colonel Qadaffi and his forces do.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/16/world/africa/16libya.html?hp


Note: April 15, 2011

[Gerald]

Cluster Bombs,bad news

[TorpX]

Cluster bombs.

With our great leader Obama and NATO leading a humanitariam mission, what could go wrong?

[MH]

Now thats really makes him outlaw.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Aw, damnit. This is precisely what I was worried about last time we had this discussion. We let the rag-tag rebels dictate the pace of operations and now they've gone and advanced at such a tepid pace that Qadaffi is still around to order these kinds of retaliatory strikes. Goddamn Islamic rebels. Why can't they be more like rebels that aren't stupid and cowardly? I should have expected as much after seeing those worthless SOBs in action.

I hope NATO has warships with really good fire-finder radars so they can put those launchers down before they cause any more damage.

[MH]

Aw, damnit. This is precisely what I was worried about last time we had this discussion. We let the rag-tag rebels dictate the pace of operations and now they've gone and advanced at such a tepid pace that Qadaffi is still around to order these kinds of retaliatory strikes. Goddamn Islamic rebels. Why can't they be more like rebels that aren't stupid and cowardly? I should have expected as much after seeing those worthless SOBs in action.

I hope NATO has warships with really good fire-finder radars so they can put those launchers down before they cause any more damage.

Thats new age politictly correct war.
Let peaple get killed slowly in small groups its easer to swallow.

[Skybird]

Wait wait, German foreign carricature Guido Westerwelle has the solution: he said that a political solution is needed! That would end the use of cluster bombs!

One observation: when NATO needlessly took over all command from the french and British, the pace aof the air campagin immediately slowed down, giving Gaddafi's forces the time and opportunity to take a break, have a deep breathe, reorganise, rethink their tactics and change them, use pickups instead of tanks, and then striking back with more force than before. In order to have Guido the Great's political solution, the Gaddafi side must remain intact, else you have no negotiation partner.

Mann, ist der clever, unser Guido! :D

The 1 million dollar question now is: what is NATO doing different, and why? :D Could it be that some political experts and concerned Gutmenschen, if not even some idiots willing to leave Gaddafi in power, have messed it up ONCE AGAIN?

However, German media reported that refugees from Lybia reported that rebels have executed randomply civilians in the streets, by beheading. After a rebel commander'S confession that he has Al Quaeda fighters under his command some time agao, this is the second hint that maybe we have no reason to be uncertain about the nature of the rebel forces anymore(with this uncertainty - and chance for somebody better coming to power - having been my only argtument to support the air strikes being launched). I also miss any signal or vision coming from the rebel side what they wish to install after the regime, and what their poltical goals and tools will be.

In other words, as I havew said from, beginning on, I take into account that maybe I will need to u-turn on this issue indeed. But as long as we have not been are not fully clear about the rebels, I still think it was worth to take the chance.

[Gerald]

Abdullah, a doctor in Misrata, told the BBC he had seen evidence of the use of cluster bombs

Pro-government forces in Libya have been accused by a human rights campaign group of using cluster bombs, which are banned by more than 100 countries.

Human Rights Watch said one of its photographers saw three mortar-launched projectiles explode over a residential area of Misrata.

A Libyan government spokesman denied the allegation.

Government troops have intensified their siege of Misrata, the only western Libyan city still in rebel hands.

The BBC's Orla Guerin reports from inside the battle-scarred city that local residents fear a massacre without greater action by Nato air forces to break the siege.

As well as cluster munitions there have been a number of reports that Libyan forces are using the Soviet-designed Grad rocket system in their bombardment of Misrata.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13102328


Note: Update Record,16 April 2011 Last updated at 07:49 GMT

[Gerald]

Cluster bombs.

With our great leader Obama and NATO leading a humanitariam mission, what could go wrong?
civilian populations hardest hit, as always, unfortunately, but that Muammar el-Qaddafi must be eliminated is no doubt

[Jimbuna]

And so it goes on and on and on :nope:

[Gerald]

He knows that his time will come, and there are ways to get rid of this man.

[Platapus]

Now thats really makes him outlaw.

You are aware that the United States still refuses to sign the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

We are the last people to criticize. :nope:

[MH]

You are aware that the United States still refuses to sign the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

We are the last people to criticize. :nope:

From my point of vew all those conventions are as usefull as signing convention for using paintball guns instead of real bullets.
Its just populistic bull.
The only way to ensure not using any sort of weapon in time of war is the fear of retaliation or having good or more effective replacment for baned weapon.

[Gerald]

From my point of vew all those conventions are as usefull as signing convention for using paintball guns instead of real bullets.
Its just populistic bull.
The only way to ensure not using any sort of weapon in time of war is the fear of retaliation or having good or more effective replacment for baned weapon. Those types are solutions, but there are never any 100% guarantee that it will be "better"

[Happy Times]

From my point of vew all those conventions are as usefull as signing convention for using paintball guns instead of real bullets.
Its just populistic bull.
The only way to ensure not using any sort of weapon in time of war is the fear of retaliation or having good or more effective replacment for baned weapon.

So true, our beloved and naive socialist President wanted Finland to give up landmines, they where replaced by cluster munitions.:haha:

Actually the mines are still waiting to be destroyed, might take time as our Generals look after the countrys best interest unlike politicians.:salute:

[Gerald]

Latest estimates are over 100 million in up to 64 different countries. this is the number of landmines already in place. The various countries which still produce landmines for use...

[Platapus]

Here is a shocker

The United States also refuses to sign the Ottawa Convention either.

[Happy Times]

Latest estimates are over 100 million in up to 64 different countries. this is the number of landmines already in place. The various countries which still produce landmines for use...

Ours are in storage, not in the ground, the day someone steps on them he deserves it.

[Gerald]

Not only US,

http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/legal-fact-sheet/landmines-factsheet-150807.htm

[Gerald]

Ours are in storage, not in the ground, the day someone steps on them he deserves it. So it is in many Western countries, that they are in stock, and deployed at the war authorization, or other exceptional condition

[TLAM Strike]

The Ottawa Convention is pure political BS. :down:

We signed the CCW that follow that, all our mines fields are marked or self neutralizing after a set time. :yep:

If someone gets a leg blow off in a marked minefield oh well, Darwin in action. :roll:

[NeonSamurai]

What's the failure rate on the self neutralizing mines though? As I recall that is the same issue faces with cluster munitions.

[joegrundman]

this is just another act in the dance of bs that is unfolding before us.

In a grim way, the show is funny

cluster bombs are nasty - sure. we can all join in sombre condemnation of all who have used cluster bombs, past, present and future.

however - the rebels get to fire tomahawks and laser guided bombs, so the loyalists fire some twenty year old cluster mortar bombs. are we to be shocked at the unfairness or something?

or is this info just usefully being exploited after the us has decided that the british and french, enjoyable as it has been, are unable to take on one puny country without uncle sam's help, and must weigh in again to end this charade?

but srsly - britain and france! wtf! very funny!

but since now what exactly the "rest of the west" can do has been shown to great effect, it is past time for the US to move the game past the first stage and into the interminable hostile occupation stage. Causus belli in place, full steam ahead!

"If it were done, when 'tis done, then twere well it were done quickly."Macbeth

[Gerald]

What's the failure rate on the self neutralizing mines though? As I recall that is the same issue faces with cluster munitions.

http://www.unidir.org/pdf/articles/pdf-art2533.pdf

[Jimbuna]

Not very civil having a poke at your allies Joe...the terms of engagement allowed under the UN mandate are somewhat short of an invasion...which is just as well really because Britain for one is pretty low on capability due to years of defence cuts.

If your thinking the US should go in and finish off this 'charade' then good luck....I certainly hope you fair better than was the case in Nam.

[Dowly]

So true, our beloved and naive socialist President wanted Finland to give up landmines, they where replaced by cluster munitions.:haha:

Actually the mines are still waiting to be destroyed, might take time as our Generals look after the countrys best interest unlike politicians.:salute:

A fine example of Finland wanting to just kiss some ass. :-? If there's something
I dislike about our country, it's the need for our politicians to please the larger
countries.

How about keeping up with the spirit and doing what's best for us, not what
looks the best in other's eyes. :nope:

As for the landmines... well, Finland has always kept a good record of what and
where has been placed, even during the peak of WWII. Most of the
mines were cleared afterwards.

[joegrundman]

Not very civil having a poke at your allies Joe...the terms of engagement allowed under the UN mandate are somewhat short of an invasion...which is just as well really because Britain for one is pretty low on capability due to years of defence cuts.

If your thinking the US should go in and finish off this 'charade' then good luck....I certainly hope you fair better than was the case in Nam.

I am british Jim. And i feel the nuances of my post may have temporarily slipped past you.

The terms of the UN resolution mean either the partition of Libya, or war to the end. There is no way that we can accept at this point a loyalist victory, which means we have to ensure a rebel victory, or at the minimum a fudged compromise involving the exile of gaddafy (which lets face it is the best option for everyone ) - for otherwise the west will not be able to handle the embarrassment.

But Libya! Libya was once the battleground where the British and French fought each other - or was that Egypt? well nevermind!

Mind you, Libyans were once pretty tough cookies themselves - those Libyan spearmen that were on the flanks of Hannibal's army, the Romans will never forget them!

[Tribesman]

Blame the terrorists.
Daffy is right, these rebelious terrorists are hiding amongst the civilian population, they are the ones who are responsible, they are the ones using Libyans who they claim to care about as human shields.
They just expect the western liberal media to jump on its usual anti daffy bandwagon and condemn the attacks which they are inviting on themselves for propoganda purposes.
These stupid laws on trying to make warfare legal are ridiculous, the governments job is to kill as many people as needed as quickly as possible to ensure an end to open armed revolt which is most probably all being run by foriegn terrorist sponsoring countries anyway.
;)

[MH]

These stupid laws on trying to make warfare legal are ridiculous, the governments job is to kill as many people as needed as quickly as possible to ensure an end to open armed revolt which is most probably all being run by foriegn terrorist sponsoring countries anyway.
;)
make warfare legal?

[Gerald]

http://youtu.be/xcFoHLBhRDo

[TLAM Strike]

http://youtu.be/xcFoHLBhRDoWell at least Qaddafi is using self-sterilizing cluster munitions against civilians... :haha:

[Gerald]

Well at least Qaddafi is using self-sterilizing cluster munitions against civilians... :haha: ....:hmm2:

[Jimbuna]

Well at least Qaddafi is using self-sterilizing cluster munitions against civilians... :haha:

LOL....I'm honestly not convinced they are being used.

Would like some irrefutable proof :hmmm:

[UnderseaLcpl]

A fine example of Finland wanting to just kiss some ass. :-? If there's something
I dislike about our country, it's the need for our politicians to please the larger
countries.

Dude, that's no reason to dislike Finland. Everybody's country does that in some way, except perhaps North Korea, which sucks. Even my very own beloved US of A (Which is, by all measures of self-importance, the largest country in the world), finds itself kissing the asses of smaller countries on a fairly regular basis. That's not impotence, it's just globalization. It's stupid sometimes, but everyone does it.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Speaking of ass-kissing, the Ottowa Convention can kiss mine. I'm not about to abandon the use of land-mines just because it gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. It's not that I don't understand the intention, it's just that bullets give me a much colder and decidedly less-fuzzy feeling.

Land-mines are excellent weapons for many reasons. They can be used for channeling the enemy into prepared kill-zones, slowing their advance, disabling armor or infantry support in preparation for a counter-attack, and about a hundred other creative uses. However noble it may be to abandon land-mines as weapons of war, I would not rule out their use in a situation where the lives of my troops or the success of the mission are at stake. There's a time for love and a time for war, and the time for war is not the time to abandon such tactically-useful weapons.

[TLAM Strike]

....:hmm2:
The video you posted showed MAT-120 mortar rounds. According to the Spanish Company who makes them website they have self neutralizing systems.

[Gerald]

The video you posted showed MAT-120 mortar rounds. According to the Spanish Company who makes them website they have self neutralizing systems. OK! I understand :yep: