yay more inflation

[nikimcbee]

Price of milk has gone up by 10 cents here. So, if I'm not mistaken, in the last three months, it has gone up 20 cents.:shifty:

[AVGWarhawk]

Everything is up. Attribute it to higher fuel prices to get the product to the stores. Higher prices to run the farm tractors. Higher prices to run the milking machines. It all ends up coming out of our pockets if we want milk and cookies. :DL

[UnderseaLcpl]

Relax, McBee. This is all part of our plan to save the earth. We are using corn to create ethanol fuels that are good for the environment. To do that, we need land that cows used to use. And other livestock and crops. And stuff. Thus far, we have succeeded in creating a gasoline product that is 10% corn-ethanol, and will reduce our carbon emissions by...um...well nothing actually. In fact it has increased our carbon footprint, but it's the thought that counts, right? The water included in the ethanol may damage your engine, but don't sweat it, you can just go buy a new car. Make sure you get one of the new ones that is designed to use ethanol fuel. They won't be any less susceptible to water damage or fuel-efficient than the vehicle you have now, but they are designed to use ethanol fuel.

Also, this green industry is unprofitable, so we're going to need you to contribute some of your income, if you don't mind. It's your choice of course, you can either help us save the planet or go to jail. Thanks in advance for your generosity and environmental consciousness. This is our Earth, after all.

[frau kaleun]

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/demotivational-posters-no.jpg

[Gargamel]

To do that, we need land that cows used to use.

I know that was tongue in cheek, but the problem with that point of view is that the US government pays farmers to NOT grow corn. They get paid to not do what they're supposed to do. I can go for a Lima bean shortage if it means more farmers are growing corn and dropping our fuel prices.

And yes, the carbon footprint of ethanol vs petroleum is smaller. Just look at the infrastructure for each. Ethanol will be our hold over fuel until something better comes along.

[UnderseaLcpl]

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/demotivational-posters-no.jpg

Look on the bright side, frau. This rise in bacon prices saves the earth, as well as our precious pigs, which we can then use for bacon. It may not make sense now, but it will all come together perfectly if you will just vote for us. We promise. Honest. Just press that button in the voting booth and you will receive bacon.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I know that was tongue in cheek, but the problem with that point of view is that the US government pays farmers to NOT grow corn. They get paid to not do what they're supposed to do. I can go for a Lima bean shortage if it means more farmers are growing corn and dropping our fuel prices.
Excellent analysis, Gargamel. You are mostly correct. The government does, indeed, pay farmers to not grow corn. It also pays them an inflated price for the corn they do grow. It's all part of a subsidy system that is so complex and counterproductive that I cannot begin to understand it. Supposedly it helps farmers, not that it has at all saved them from being dominated by agribusiness, which curiously reaps many of the same subsidies and price controls for some reason.

I could also use an increase in the corn supply and the resultant drop in corn prices, but somehow, that's not what's happening. We have, through state intervention, managed to achieve the impossible. We have increased the production of a product and simultaneously managed to make it more expensive at the same time. And we did it all for our own good and the good of the planet.

And yes, the carbon footprint of ethanol vs petroleum is smaller. Just look at the infrastructure for each. Ethanol will be our hold over fuel until something better comes along.

From whence did you obtain this bizarre supposition? I tried to look it up but I find no credible champions of ethanol, other than the lobbies and some eco-tards. I reserve judgement, but I am curious.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Cows can keep their pasture's...

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

EDIT: Nothing new but interesting http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?topicName=ila_2010&id=news/awx/2010/06/07/awx_06_07_2010_p0-232525.xml&headline=EADS%20Sets%20First%20Public%2

[les green01]

you guys just got to know where to find them once you find one or two you get some pails and a stool just make sure you are trying to milk the right sex or just find a farm with a single daughter and the only daugther make your move when daddy dies you got the farm

[UnderseaLcpl]

Cows can keep their pasture's...

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel

I'll buy that when the free market makes it feasible and practicable and not a moment before.

[Sailor Steve]

you guys just got to know where to find them once you find one or two you get some pails and a stool just make sure you are trying to milk the right sex or just find a farm with a single daughter and the only daugther make your move when daddy dies you got the farm
Unless daddy catches on, in which case you just bought the farm. :dead:

[GoldenRivet]

I wouldn't worry about it. We are already screwed by our own government.

our national debt will outpace the national GDP some time next year. nobody really seems to worry about it.

the reason they probably dont worry about it is they feel like congress will raise the debt ceiling - again.

once that happens we have set the stage and provided the perfect recipe for hyperinflation.

and we all know what happens to countries when hyperinflation kicks in.

just wait.

the answers will be clear all in due time.

[MaddogK]

Thats called hope and change GR.
:yeah:

[GoldenRivet]

Thats called hope and change GR.
:yeah:

thats right.

when you bankrupt a country, and the masses have to shovel over $10 a gallon for gasoline, and they can't afford to feed their families - more and more reliance is placed on the government to fix things.

sure, there will be people like my friends who live in the country and have gardens and chickens and pigs and cattle of their own to breed and slaughter when the time comes.

Or people like me who have perhaps a month and a half worth of canned food stashed away at any given time... and in times of desperation that could be rationed and made to last for perhaps 3 months or more.

but for 90% of the population - this spells disaster - it forces over reliance on the government and military and it firmly plants the roots of totalitarian / socialist regime types of government.

it has happened in every country that suffered from hyperinflation throughout history and i think it is pretty arrogant to think for one second that America is immune.

our government has spent out of control on pet projects and on programs government was never meant to be involved in and it is nearing the point of costing us dearly.

im not touting the end of the world, or the end of America etc etc - but what i am saying is that in a relatively short time - so far as the lifespan of nations go - America is headed for some serious negative changes very soon. perhaps we will emerge from those changes a stronger nation eventually?

the logic i use is that things got pretty bad in the soviet union... but Russia and her people survived the fall of their government and the collapse of their economy.

as different a place as america is today from just 30-40 years ago... she will br radically different one day soon and i blame it on two things.

1. Government has overstepped its bounds on so many things, and has become this sprawling money spewing beast.

2. The people - the majority of them don't give a big enough crap about the situation as long as they can afford to feed their own greed. as long as big screen TVs, gasoline, SUVs and the like are affordable in the USA - you can get the people to do anything you want... they will submit to anything.

[Tchocky]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/14/us-economy-poll-idUSTRE73D3XY20110414?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews


U.S. inflation is likely to climb higher than previously thought but the recovery will not stall as interest rates will be held down until early next year, according to the latest Reuters poll of economists.

Just a poll, not worth paper printed on, economics is a profession that advances by funerals etc etc etc :D

[AVGWarhawk]

http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/demotivational-posters-no.jpg

I knew I should have purchased pork belly futures. :DL

[Gargamel]

From whence did you obtain this bizarre supposition? I tried to look it up but I find no credible champions of ethanol, other than the lobbies and some eco-tards. I reserve judgement, but I am curious.

Ah well it is just that, supposition. But a logical one IMO. The source of corn is green, its a plant, reducing the carbon footprint to start with. then there's a tractor, a few trucks, and some ancillary machines, but that's about it, and the distillery (different than a refinery, a lot less wasteful). Oil needs a rig (many trucks/ships), a refinery (power source, waste gases), shipping (trucks/ships), etc etc. It's amazing to think that oil doesnt burn more fuel than it produces.

Yeah. ethanol is still a CO2 emitting fuel, but we really need to switch to it to preserve the oil supply, so other petroleum products that alternatives have yet to be found (plastic?) can continue on.

Also financially speaking, as A US citizen, I would like to be free of the OPEC countries hold over us. And corn production is one of the few commodities that the US could be the leader in. We have all this open space, might as well use it.

And forget ethanol, what about vegetable oil in diesels? way more fuel efficient to start with!

[Ducimus]

Everything is up. Attribute it to higher fuel prices to get the product to the stores. Higher prices to run the farm tractors. Higher prices to run the milking machines. It all ends up coming out of our pockets if we want milk and cookies. :DL

This.

Watch the price of Diesal in particular.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Ah well it is just that, supposition. But a logical one IMO. The source of corn is green, its a plant, reducing the carbon footprint to start with. then there's a tractor, a few trucks, and some ancillary machines, but that's about it, and the distillery (different than a refinery, a lot less wasteful).
:haha::salute:
A tractor and a few trucks? Some ancillary machines? I take it you're not a farmer.

Alright, I didn't mean any offense by any of that, but it did make me laugh. I can't even blame you for your logic, because it's actually quite logical. However, the reality is quite a bit different.

I takes about 25 pounds of corn to yield one gallon of ethanol fuel. That may not sound like much, but it takes a lot of land to grow 25 pounds of corn, and that ain't corn stocks or corn cobs, it's the actual little yellow seeds that you can buy in bags at the grocery store and eat. I forget exactly how much land it takes but it's about an acre to produce that much corn. That's land that could be used for the much more efficient task of producing stuff people already use and eat. Still not so bad? It gets worse.

Turning that corn into ethanol uses a lot of energy. The distilleries that produce it consume vast amounts of electricity, and that electricity has to come from somewhere. Simply growing the corn has a lot of energy costs and carbon footprint associated with it as well. Corn is a relatively hardy crop, but it still has to be fertilized regularly and dusted for pests, fungi and weeds or it dies en masse. Those fertilizers and whatever-cides aren't cheap or environmentally-friendly to produce, and it takes a great deal of them and the machines to distribute them to sustain the vast cornfields needed to produce the amount of ethanol we require.

But don't take my word for it. Look at what the ethanol craze has accomplished thus far. Our gasoline is only 10% ethanol, despite a surge in corn production since the Energy-whatever Act of 2005, and it didn't lower gas prices, it raised them. It also had the side effect of raising food prices by wasting land that could have been better-used or better-suited to other crops.

And it doesn't even stop there. Corn-ethanol is so inefficient that it requires $17 billion in annual Federal subsidies just to remain viable. That's after the price-hikes. This is not "green" policy, it's Farm lobby policy dressed up as green policy and peddled to pandering politicians who don't know any better.

Oil needs a rig (many trucks/ships), a refinery (power source, waste gases), shipping (trucks/ships), etc etc. It's amazing to think that oil doesnt burn more fuel than it produces.
Well, it actually does burn more fuel than it produces, but it is still comparatively efficient, which is why we use the hell out of it.

Yeah. ethanol is still a CO2 emitting fuel, but we really need to switch to it to preserve the oil supply, so other petroleum products that alternatives have yet to be found (plastic?) can continue on.
Preserve the oil supply? What makes you think we're running out? I know that people say that we're running out all the time, but if that's true, why do the oil companies seem so unconcerned?

I know why. It's because we aren't running out, and they have artificial substitutes. I trust them. They didn't get to be mega-conglomerates and captains of industry just by being short-sighted and greedy, contrary to the general public impression.

Also financially speaking, as A US citizen, I would like to be free of the OPEC countries hold over us. And corn production is one of the few commodities that the US could be the leader in. We have all this open space, might as well use it.
We were the leader in corn production before ethanol came around, but back then we were actually selling it to people and not subsidizing it quite so much. And there is not enough arable land in this nation to produce the ethanol we need or reduce our dependency.

And forget ethanol, what about vegetable oil in diesels? way more fuel efficient to start with!
I don't know enough about that to really opine, but that seems like a good idea. I think Platapus commented on the efficiency of diesel engines somewhere. As best I can tell, and from my own experience with diesel locomotives, they seem like a great thing. But I trust you took notice of how diesel, the sludge of petroleum products, has somehow become more expensive than gasoline, which requires a lot more cracking? The same government and the same lobbyists that pushed this corn-ethanol nonsense on us were also responsible for that. It wasn't speculators or greedy companies, it was a direct measure taken by the same people we trust to lead us and the farmers we all love because farmers are always nice, right?

[nikimcbee]

So I can't blame "big dairy" for price gouging then.:-?:06:

[Gargamel]

You can go to Mc'D's, order 10 gallons of their fryer oil, and pour it directly into your diesel fuel tank. Fuel efficiency is reduced less than 10%. Right now a lot of places will give it to you for free since they have to pay to have it hauled away anyways. I see it being a commodity in the future, used veggy oil. For prolonged use, it's recommended to add some filters in fuel line, and some fuel/air mix adjustments, beyond the filtering before pouring it into the tank.

And yes, I'm fully aware of diesel prices, been fueling a diesel E450 or 350 every night for the past 12 years.

Ethanol fuel is easy to burn, just requires some tweaking to the engine design. Brazil currently runs 25% ethanol in their gas, and have over 500,000 pure ethanol fuel vehicles on the road right now.


But oil is running out. It's a fact. It's a non-renewable resource. No more dinos around to smush up! :D. Seriously though, we will eventually run out. be it 50 or 500 years, it eventually will go dry.

Why aren't the mega corps worried? Some are that short sighted and mis run. Enron case in point. But most of them realize they can't afford to switch yet. The have their infrastructure already built. Some it is still at a loss, and they need x number of years before it will turn a profit. In the future they may see the need to change. But right now, it goes against their bottom line to pursue alternatives to their main product. Same with the auto industry. Change costs money. And change affects the business partners you've had for the past 100 years. No reason to rock the boat.

I understand farming, and appreciate the amount effort that goes into it. I can't find a reference for the 25lbs/ gallon. But seeing that 400 gallons / acre / year of corn, that number seems about right. Of course I also found it's not just corn that makes ethanol:

Ethanol can be produced from a variety of feedstocks such as sugar cane, bagasse, miscanthus, sugar beet, sorghum, grain sorghum, switchgrass, barley, hemp, kenaf, potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava, sunflower, fruit, molasses, corn, stover, grain, wheat, straw, cotton, other biomass, as well as many types of cellulose waste and harvestings, whichever has the best well-to-wheel assessment.

And wikipedia also mentioned an algae that can produce 6000 gallons / acre / year. That's pretty efficient comparatively.


But then there's also the impact aspects. Oil production is messy. Corn, is well, a plant. Majority of farm land doesnt change much except for the plowing and other prep. Yes, there are some terraforming type projects to make more farm land, but the vast majority of farms use the land pretty much as they find it.

1 Oil tanker hit's an Iceberg (or 1 oil platform randomly explodes) and all hell breaks loose. 1,000 corn trucks flip over and you have some really happy squirrels and a lot of shoveling to do. Oil spills kill off bio mass, corn spills add to it.


But the bottom line is, ethanol and bio-diesel, is a far more economical and environmentally friendly solution to our energy demands. But the effort required by the big business that controls the market won't happen until a major tipping point occurs.

[AVGWarhawk]

So I can't blame "big dairy" for price gouging then.:-?:06:

I would say not. Fuel/petrol/gas/oil drives pricing in a lot of goods and services we purchase/use.

[nikimcbee]

I would say not. Fuel/petrol/gas/oil drives pricing in a lot of goods and services we purchase/use.

wait, I'm confused; so I blame bush then?

[AVGWarhawk]

wait, I'm confused; so I blame bush then?


Correct! :yeah: