Airbus A380 Takes Out RJ700 at JFK

[sharkbit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2StZVDUck9M

That Airbus moved the RJ like it was a little toy. Amazing that nothing worse happened. Sounds like there weren't any injuries.

Story:
http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2011/04/air-france-a380-comair-clip-photos/155668/1

:)

[bookworm_020]

Dude! You dinged my plane!:88)

[GoldenRivet]

THIS is why flight crews ask you to remain in your seat with your seat belt fastened until the aircraft comes to a complete stop at the gate and the fasten seat belts sign has been turned off.:up:

This exact thing happened to a crew i know... not as bad, but it moved the plane a couple of feet and put the aircraft out of service for a couple of weeks.

[Fish In The Water]

Hard to avoid planes when the pilots busy dodging pink elephants... :03:

[gimpy117]

and thats why you know how wide your wingspan is!

[Gargamel]

and thats why you know how wide your wingspan is!


Well that don't do you a damn bit of good if you don't know where it is! Oh yessir I knew it was 175ft to my left. NO sir, I was not aware that other plane was 165ft over.


On lighter note... It's good to see AF using British pilots.

[GoldenRivet]

i can almost guarantee you that wingspan and turning radius and minimum taxiway and runway width are oral exam questions anyone will get on a type ride.

i know i did.:D

[Krauter]

Good god.. how did the RJ700 pilot not see him coming and move forward?

I'm not that well versed in ATC regulations, but if you see something that big coming at you wouldn't you move? Or shouldn't the tower let you know you have trouble coming?

[GoldenRivet]

Good god.. how did the RJ700 pilot not see him coming and move forward?

I'm not that well versed in ATC regulations, but if you see something that big coming at you wouldn't you move? Or shouldn't the tower let you know you have trouble coming?

This exact scenario played out with a crew i know.

when you are parked at a complete stop awaiting a gate, both pilots are looking for the "rampers" or "wing walkers" to come out and give them directions into the gate to ensure that their multi million dollar aircraft doesnt accidentally bump into any number of air conditioning carts, baggage carts, ground power units, vehicles, personnel or other airplanes parked all around the area. there are hundreds of times i have been taxiing around a large airport and come to a stop and been completely oblivious as to what - if anything - was behind me.

additionally - in the dark, judging that sort of distance is kinda difficult. you are sort of at the mercy of the A380... i mean he obviously has 45,000 hours of logged flight time if he is driving an A380 right? he has the tail mounted panoramic camera that gives him a near 270 degree view of his airplane including the wingtips right?

fact is - even when the airplane is sitting still on the ground there are really any number of duties a flight crew could be carrying out... making a cabin PA, using ACARS to pull up connecting gate information to slip to the flight attendant, calling ops to put in a request for a quick turn / fuel / or the classic "where the hell are our rampers we've been sitting here 5 whole minutes?" request. so these guys in the CRJ could have been doing any number of things that had their attention drawn away from the A380 behind them.

additionally, if i understood the ATC audio correctly, the airbus was told very specifically to hold position and give way to the parking CRJ, an instruction the airbus crew acknowledged - in which case the A380 driver should have stopped until it was undeniably evident that the wing was going to clear the obstruction.

the A380 pilot broke some cardinal rules... most importantly - when you aren't sure if the aircraft is going to clear an obstacle - stop the blankety blankin airplane!

additionally, he broke a federal regulation and didnt comply with the ATC instruction to "give way" to the other aircraft.

so, any panel could technically hang a few violations on the A380 PIC (and they often hang these particular violations on any pilot who bends metal or flesh.)

FAR part 91.13 careless or reckless operation of an aircraft. The Pilot in command was careless in his assumption that the wingtip would clear the other aircraft.

FAR part 91.103 preflight action this reg requires the pilot in command to be familiar with the airport amongst other things (the crew i know that was hit, was struck by a 757 taxiing on a taxiway closed to aircraft with a wingspan of more than 100 feet, if a similar case exists here, technically this regulation was broken)

FAR part 91.111 operations near other aircraft should not be so close as to create a collision hazard

FAR part 91.123 failure to comply with an air traffic controller's instructions The A380 crew was instructed to give way to the CRJ and did the exact opposite of giving way.

absolutely no blame rests with the CRJ crew.

so, from experience, let me tell you what will probably happen.

2 flights canceled (probably more depending on connections and aircraft availability for replacements)

2 flight crews were removed from duty, tested for drugs and alcohol, and sent home on administrative leave of absence pending investigation

2 flight crews filed an ASAP (aviation safety action report)

2 flight crews will file a written report with their respective chief pilots at their airline

the A380 crew will likely be sent back to Air France Headquarters for some sort of "focus training" followed by a pilot proficiency check which will probably include 10-20 hours (give or take) of flight line operations with a check airman.

the CRJ crew will be found clear of any wrong doing and will return to work with no further hassle.

a company procedure for the Air France A380 fleet will probably be modified (ie the tail camera must be on and in use for all surface operations)

the Air france A380 training program will include a reference to this accident in their ground school at the very least.

thats about all i can think of at the moment.

[UnderseaLcpl]

My first inclination was to blame this incident on the FAA for not doing their goddamn job....again, but I have no evidence to back it up and therefore I defer to GR's greater experience. However, I have no idea wtf he is talking about.

[GoldenRivet]

My first inclination was to blame this incident on the FAA for not doing their goddamn job....again, but I have no evidence to back it up and therefore I defer to GR's greater experience. However, I have no idea wtf he is talking about.

:har:

[sharkbit]

Thank God there are pilots like these that give aircraft mechanics like me some job security.

:)

[sharkbit]

My first inclination was to blame this incident on the FAA for not doing their goddamn job....again, but I have no evidence to back it up and therefore I defer to GR's greater experience. However, I have no idea wtf he is talking about.

I don't see how any blame can be placed on the FAA. The A380 pilots screwed up, pure and simple, especially if ATC told them to hold. The PIC is solely responsible for operation of the aircraft.

I'd be curious on how much time the A380 flight crew had. The A380 is pretty new and that is one huge airplane to be taxiing around a crowded ramp.

:)

[Tchocky]

Great post GR, just one quibble :D

It's not possible to view the wingtips from either the cockpit or the tail camera on the A380. The camera barely shows beyond engines #1 and #4.

The FAA aren't at fault here, the taxiway is Code F approved as is the A380, what has happened is a failure of situational awareness on the part of the AF pilot, and/or a too-slow movement of the CRJ by the ramp staff. From the video it looks like the CRJ was waiting for the ground vehicle to clear the ramp ahead, from what I know the CRJ has the right of way and should not have been left out there waiting.
It also seems like the AF crew were taxiing quite fast for such a built-up area - from what I remember the Delta Connection gates at JFK get pretty close to the taxiways.
I can possibly see fault with both the AF crew and the ground handlers of the CRJ. Or just one of the two.

I'll have a listen to the ATC recording and see :)

[TarJak]

a company procedure for the Air France A380 fleet will probably be modified (ie the tail camera must be on and in use for all surface operations)

the Air france A380 training program will include a reference to this accident in their ground school at the very least.

thats about all i can think of at the moment.
You'll find a reference to this will most likely go into the ops training for any airline that opeates the A380 that was paying attention and will probably turn up in their simulator training programs as well.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I don't see how any blame can be placed on the FAA. The A380 pilots screwed up, pure and simple, especially if ATC told them to hold. The PIC is solely responsible for operation of the aircraft.

I don't see how one could blame the FAA either. I only said my first inclination was to blame them.

[Tchocky]

additionally, if i understood the ATC audio correctly, the airbus was told very specifically to hold position and give way to the parking CRJ, an instruction the airbus crew acknowledged - in which case the A380 driver should have stopped until it was undeniably evident that the wing was going to clear the obstruction.


Having listened to the recording, this isn't quite what took place. The "give way" instruction to AF007 was for opposite direction traffic which, given the short gap between instruction and collision, couldn't apply to the CRJ. Also, the instruction has the AF giving way at Kilo Delta, whereas the hit with the CRJ happened at intersections of Mike and Alpha, which is a long way further down taxiway Alpha.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/00610AD.svg/1000px-00610AD.svg.png

The AF was not in violation of any clearance from Kennedy Ground, but the AF crew was lacking in situational awareness. I think the CRJ was close enough to it's gate that it may have looked to the AF PIC like there was the normal amount of space.