Star Shells in SH4

[Daniel Prates]

Hi Guys,

I have just started with SH4, after being already a veteran in SH3.

I noticed SH4 subs do not count on star shells for their deck guns. I am new to the game, but i have already checked as much as I could all sub types, in different war periods. Nowhere did I find this ammo type.

Is it simply not depicted at all in SH4?

D

[Armistead]

Not in SH4, nor do I recall that fleetboats used this type of ammo to any degree doing deckgun attacks.

One thing for sure, the enemy carries plenty and if one lands near you and lights you up, they'll let you have it. I was blasting one ship from 5000 yards and they couldn't find me, a starshell came over me and I got blasted.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Yes, the enemy make deadly use of star-shells which, although they're a type of ordinance, I don't believe they actually fell into the category of ammo (to be fire directly at a target). They're just flares and only the enemy has them.

[rein1705]

I dont believe a Fleet Boat skipper would be much interested in haveing Star Shells aboard unless it was on the Wahoo and they were trying to light up a Sampan :har:

[Daniel Prates]

Guys guys... I know what star shells are for. What I mean is: it is very unlikely that US subs didn't carry them. German Uboars sure did, and they have their usefulness in some situations - dealing with unerscorted convoys, for instance, since you have no spotlight or anything alike to help you assess the position of enemy ships in a glance - specially in moonless nights. I use them all the time, except of course later in the game where you simply can't merchants traveling alone anymore. Sure, if there is a small change of some escort being around, the use of SS is unadvised since you will simply atract unwanted attention. But that is not always the case.

This is why I guess SH3 depicts the use of star shells in german subs. Why SH4 doesnt? That's what I was wondering. Is is a historical fact? US subs simply didn't carry them? Or was it a game design choice on Ubisoft?

[CapnScurvy]

It's my understanding the U.S. Fleet Boat didn't use them.

[Wilcke]

Guys guys... I know what star shells are for. What I mean is: it is very unlikely that US subs didn't carry them. German Uboars sure did, and they have their usefulness in some situations - dealing with unerscorted convoys, for instance, since you have no spotlight or anything alike to help you assess the position of enemy ships in a glance - specially in moonless nights. I use them all the time, except of course later in the game where you simply can't merchants traveling alone anymore. Sure, if there is a small change of some escort being around, the use of SS is unadvised since you will simply atract unwanted attention. But that is not always the case.

This is why I guess SH3 depicts the use of star shells in german subs. Why SH4 doesnt? That's what I was wondering. Is is a historical fact? US subs simply didn't carry them? Or was it a game design choice on Ubisoft?

In the reading I have done and the patrol reports I have read, I do not remember any accounts of the use of star shells in the PTO by a fleet boat. We need further research. Whether they were part of the ammo inventory in a fleet boat I have no idea, more research needed. I do know that star shell ammo is available for the 5" / 38 guns Mk12 through Mk38 Mod0, but these mounts and their variants seem not to have been used on the fleet boats.

A lot of the fleet boat skippers were pretty independent and innovative, so who knows, if you read enough patrol reports you may just run across the use of the star shell.

Happy hunting or should I say reading!

[Sailor Steve]

WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

Guys guys... I know what star shells are for. What I mean is: it is very unlikely that US subs didn't carry them. German Uboars sure did...
This is kind of a yes/no situation. The best official source for ammunition loadouts, Naval Weapons Of World War Two by John Campbell, mentions that the German 8.8cm and 10.5cm guns carried starshells and armor-piercing shelss, but qualifies it with "for destroyers and minesweepers". He doesn't say "only", but the implication is there. On the other hand some time ago a member linked to a couple of reports that mention AP, but not starshells, which means that the individual captains had some discretion in the matter. For this reason GWX removes both from the roster. Perhaps the u-boats "sure did" but some evidence would be nice.

This may have been true for the US fleet boats as well, but actual evidence seems to be lacking.

and they have their usefulness in some situations - dealing with unerscorted convoys, for instance, since you have no spotlight or anything alike to help you assess the position of enemy ships in a glance - specially in moonless nights.
Is there evidence of actual submarine skippers using them? Or u-boat kaleuns, for that matter? What we do in a game is affected by the fact that we can't be hurt, so we take risks they might not in real life. I've never read an account of starshells being used by a submarine to mark target ships. This doesn't mean it didn't happen, but if it did it was very rare.

Also remember that every starshell on board means one less actual shell for the attack.

[Armistead]

It's a good question. Search online sub ammo/star shells you'll find reference to uboats, even british subs having them, but no mention of fleetboats. I've read about every fleetboat book known and never read of them being used. I would think it's tactics. Is it possible fleetboats had some, probably, but not something they would use in battle.

Even with Uboats they were rarely used, more in the early war.

Wouldn't mind having a few with the new darker water and sky with TMO, since we have a empty ammo slot with TMO.

I imagine if it could be done you would have to do it for each sub class and gun probably using the guns dat and then matching the signal flare ID to it...

Ducimas will know how, ask him, he may even respond depending on his mood...

[WernherVonTrapp]

Just to add to all the situation variables, once a sub fires a star-shell, say bye-bye to the element of surprise, which was the submarine's bread & butter.

[Daniel Prates]

Well star shells are clearly not popular around this parts! But to shed some light over the matter (arrr! pardon me irony, matey!), i checked this book, available online (go directly to page 73) where it is stated that the 8.8 gun used in some u-boats was able to fire star shells, even though being a purely naval gun.

http://books.google.com.br/books?id=Qo8kOmEaORYC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=star+shells+used+by+u-boat&source=bl&ots=ft7zhsPUhH&sig=R8a7pQFG19iJuztdMeYbvjlS-2o&hl=pt-BR&ei=ciWmTYDhOsny0gHztpCACQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=star%20shells%20used%20by%20u-boat&f=false

Of course, that does not mean the crew would choose to use such ordinance, or even carry it for that matter. It also does not mean that the star shells used on those 8.8 guns was not meant for, say, only when mounted on destroyers.

Clearly SS are not the most popular ordinance in the world. However in the SH3 forums they are sure discussed a lot, that much I say! This discussior arised here...

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1167029

... where "JSCones" said this:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1165964#post1165964)
You just said the magic word!

OPTIONS! OPTIONS! OPTIONS!

There should be options for everything the captain might do.

"There's a lot of truth in that. It's easy to make blanket statements such as "Kaleuns never carried star shells", but the fact is, they could, if the Kaleun wanted to.Let the player choose his complete loadout, ala many Flight Sims, then such arguments can disappear.Same with the deck gun. It should be Kaleun's discretion whether he keeps it or removes it, whenever he wants."

But I nag enouth already.

[Ducimus]

Wouldn't mind having a few with the new darker water and sky with TMO, since we have a empty ammo slot with TMO.

I imagine if it could be done you would have to do it for each sub class and gun probably using the guns dat and then matching the signal flare ID to it...

Ducimas will know how, ask him, he may even respond depending on his mood...

I monkeyed with it before, a very long time ago. As i recall, i did get star shells into a deck gun, but for the sole purpose of being able to test star shells at will. At the time i was trying to fix star shell illumination, and it was inefficient having the AI launch star shells for me, so i modded the deck gun so i could shoot them myself. A case of "make a mod, to make a mod" :shifty:

[Armistead]

I would actually like some star shells. I looked on the net, Uboats and British subs used them at times to light singles and even convoys, but mostly earlier war.

I would think with an empty ammo slot with TMO anyway be nice to have a few. My guess is all fleetboats had some, if not just for searching.

I would love to light up the merchants with the dark horizon now of TMO, can't see the blasted things like I once did. I do question if they would respond to them as they would. Course they could easily be misuesd in game, fire one at long range to draw off the escorts why you're long gone.
My guess is though they wouldn't respond to them.

[edjcox]

The only reference I know of for star shells was the use of various white and colored flares in a hand pistol that were used for signalling. Signalling to other Subs, surface boats, and aircraft... No use in combat that I have read.

Flares could be fired through a special conning tower opening without going to the deck. I can imagine that this allowed a quick dive if needed. Also a partial surface of the conning tower only for that action and then a redive.

As these shells were often phosphorous based I do not think Captains relished having them. With all the hydrogen from the batteries and occasional flooding these munitions would require extra care.

Throwing a star shell byond a target and silohueting it for an attack these shells could prove useful... As they detonate at altitude and ranges set one could lob them far enough away where an enemy might not see there deployment flash from the gun firing them.

:sunny::sunny::sunny::arrgh!: :timeout:

[Sailor Steve]

Well, in the game's Data folder is the Cfg folder, and in that is the Basic file. Down near the bottom are the lines which govern how many of each type of shell you can have. Unfortunately the SH4 one still only shows the German deck guns. I'm sure that somewhere in there is the code which covers that, but in SH4 I don't know where it is.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Well star shells are clearly not popular around this parts! I wouldn't necessarily say they're not popular, and I haven't read anything written here thus far that gives me that impression. Like Armistead, I think it would make for an interesting change of pace and as some members have shown, there are some practical applications. IMHO, and I suppose for my style of play, they defeat the intrinsic stealth factor of submarine warfare.

[Wilcke]

I pm'd AVGWarhawk, who volunteers on the Torsk and asked him about the starshells, the old timers really do not have any information as to their use except that the Torsk did not use them.

Per AVG, " The Torsk has a signal flare ejector in the aft torpedo room. See link, 3rd row first picture." http://www.naviquan.com/page/baltimore/2

My take is this as a skipper in new construction one had a lot of leeway in the engineering department on how the boat was put together and variants or I should say modifications to suit the skippers ideas were implemented. So a deck gun with star shell capability is not that far fetched and would be a fun thing to try at night with a running gun battle with some merchants, sans any tin cans being present.

[AVGWarhawk]

Middle of the page at linked below:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-iYDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA124&ots=H2T_eUTXYQ&dq=submarines%20and%20star%20shells&pg=PA128#v=onepage&q=submarines%20and%20star%20shells&f=false

Submarines can send red flairs while submerged. No mention of star shells in submarines.

[Daniel Prates]

As said by vonTrapp, "IMHO, and I suppose for my style of play, they defeat the intrinsic stealth factor of submarine warfare."

Agreed. Usefulness would be aparent in only a (very) limited scope of situations. But a few can be thinked of. Just a couple of days I ran into a pair of transports around the solomon islands. It was raining heavily, in such a manner that sighting was very limited - I only found them because they showed up in the radar screen and still I overshot them without seeing them in the first pass!

Since I was in full realism mode, my only means of assessing target type, course and distance was visual. They were very clearly merchants and that was all the amount of info I could get. So how do you get around in such a situation? This is the case I fell the need of a star shell. Just one. Fired from a distance, you get better info. OF COURSE, that presumes you have ruled out the presence of escorts. That what's radar is for.

By the way, my chosen course of action was to close in and shell them from close distance. As it turns out, they were armed merchants, with spotlights and everything. They had at least two mounts each. So all I could do was to dive, with some damage to remember my lack of caution! I then torpedoed one of them and missed all eels. Serves me right.

[rein1705]

This is a bit off topic but i think someone broght up that there wasnt a spotlight, and thats true there isnt one we can use... I was thinking about that wasnt the huge signal lamp that all our subs have a spotlight? or was it dim? I volinteer on the Batfish here in Oklahoma but out lamp is broken and no one seems interested in haveing it fixed and i never even thought about it until now. Did they use them as spotlights? i mean not in engagements that would be silly but prehaps in looking for downed airmen or the like?

PS pertaning to SH4 it would be kinda neet to be able to use the signal lamp to say... signal "clean sweep" or something or another to a friendly unit like a US DD as you return to port, like just as you pull into Midway.

[Wilcke]

Well, see now I want star shells for my deckgun!

[Armistead]

I think the reason no one has made the spotlight on the sub work is due to the on off switch. Probably no way to mod that and like air radar it would be on all the time, so it just doesn't work.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I'd like to have a few WillyPete rounds to lob at the tankers.http://www.easyfreesmileys.com/smileys/lol-041.gif

[Ducimus]

Per AVG, " The Torsk has a signal flare ejector in the aft torpedo room. See link, 3rd row first picture." http://www.naviquan.com/page/baltimore/2



6 minutes into this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=felYa9SLcWQ

Granted, this is a sci fi horror film, but they used a fleet boat filming and and seem to have got much of it right. If you watch the whole deleted scenes clip, can you tell why they deleted the hot runner scene? Opened the outter shutters before the inner? LOL, no wonder they deleted that.

edit:
(as an aside, i wont like, I enjoyed that movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk57TzUtP88 )

[AVGWarhawk]

I see what you are seeing around 6 minutes in. However, it looks to becoming out of of the portside aft signal flare ejector. This is the correct location for the flare ejector. It is a red signal flare. I do not believe this to be star shells.

[Ducimus]

I see what you are seeing around 6 minutes in. However, it looks to becoming out of of the portside aft signal flare ejector. This is the correct location for the flare ejector. It is a red signal flare. I do not believe this to be star shells.

I was just quoting wilcke because it reminded me of that video clip that i just watched last night.
At no time did i ever think they were shooting starshells. It's pretty obvious what they are operating there.

[AVGWarhawk]

Got'cha! This movie always looked interesting to me but I just cannot find the time to watch it. I have a handful of movies I got at Christmas I have yet to watch. :oops:

[Ducimus]

From what I understand that movie was a total flop. I enjoyed it though. It was filmed using the USS silversides. So I enjoyed the use of, and scenes of a fleet boat. The plot was about as good as any movie on the Sci Fi channel. Maybe a touch better, but it was all very clichish. I only remember two things about that film that bugged me. a.) How long have they been submerged now? Don't they ever freaking surface? B.) A scene where they send divers out into the ballast tanks to fix something, while submerged. That part was a first rate crock of excrement.

BUT.. if your pining to see a fleet boat crewed and operating.. this is your movie.

edit: The surfacing and emergency dive audio you hear in TMO come from this movie.

[Overkill]

I kind'a liked the movie. Not the best but it's got a fleet boat in it. :up:

"The surfacing and emergency dive audio you hear in TMO come from this movie."
Thought it sounded familiar.