Il2 COD Tsunami

[Bilge_Rat]

the latest Il-2, Cliffs of Dover, and has been released and as expected a flame war has hit SIMHQ forums like a Tsunami.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/forums/91/1/IL_2_Sturmovik_Cliffs_Of_Dover.html

They have hived off DRM discussion in a separate forum and Tom Cofield has started banning posters for the first time in 2 years.

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3254283/LISTEN_UP.html#Post3254283

Having lived through the SH5 insanity last year, I don't envy Tom's job for the next 3 months. I'm glad I am just a spectator this time..:arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

I played IL2 years ago. Seems the arguments over flight characteristics of a pixel plane still goes on. :doh:

[Oberon]

Someone predicted a helluva flame war, I was going to amble over there later and watch them burn myself. Glad our little section of flightsimming isn't like that...I think Hunter would hold Freisler courts and put Raptor in charge if they did. Then the blood would really flow. :haha:

http://www.electronicmuseum.ca/Poland-WW2/katyn_memorial_wall/kmw_pictures_2/beria_lp.jpg

+

http://image2.findagrave.com/photos/2005/157/10712212_111823383473.jpg

=

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=234368

[Hottentot]

I played IL2 years ago. Seems the arguments over flight characteristics of a pixel plane still goes on. :doh:

Oh yeah, I remember those in the "Ubizoo". I still have some of the classic threads stored on my computer for amusement and could probably name some of the loudest individuals off the top of my head. ".50 cal is underpowered, it should be as powerful as the 20mm cannon", "Tiger tanks can be destroyed by bouncing .50 cal rounds from the road to their soft bellies", "Spitfire is so overpowered", "P-51 won the war".

Ah. Memories.

[Weiss Pinguin]

".50 cal is underpowered, it should be as powerful as the 20mm cannon", "Tiger tanks can be destroyed by bouncing .50 cal rounds from the road to their soft bellies", "Spitfire is so overpowered", "P-51 won the war
There was some combination of at least three of these on every page when I still visited there. "Cows come and cows go, but the bull never leaves..." fits pretty well as far as the Ubizoo goes. (there were some good threads and discussion there, though)

[Freiwillige]

Trim on a slider! Fw-190 bar too high, The Hurricane is Uber, Oleg is biased he made Russian planes better and German worse.

[Biggles]

Oleg is biased he made Russian planes better and German worse.

People really said that? That's just too much:haha::haha::har:

[AVGWarhawk]

Biggles...you would be amazed at the personalities on the forums and how characteristics of a friggin pixel plane are like the real thing. I had to walk away! Plus I got tired of adjusting this and that on the X52 stick.

[Weiss Pinguin]

People really said that? That's just too much:haha::haha::har:
Hey man it's the truth :stare: Just try taking out one of the La's against ANY German fighter!

[Biggles]

Heh, I get vibes from the Over Flanders Fields forum...you know, the place that talks slack to anyone who isn't playing 100% realism :nope:

[AVGWarhawk]

You got the idea then! :yep: Everything is uber 'cept the pixel plane they like to fly. It's fur real...flown one myself I did. Yup!

[Biggles]

Not much humor either...I can't believe noone has made a Beatles joke in this thread yet! :shifty:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3253090/1.html

Or maybe it's just me that's just too much of a Beatlesfreak:haha:

[tater]

Actually, the .50s were underpowered, as was clear to all when we could look inside and see how they were modeled vs other rounds. I used an early mod that simple belted the .50s properly with API, and they were considerably more effective vs jap planes (not so much vs german as you'd expect).

Wonder if the new one corrects the problem where a 20mm round flips your plane on its back like it does in il-2.

[Takeda Shingen]

And I thought the SH5 s*** storm was bad. Well, can't say that the CoD problem wasn't brewing for some time. It's usually a bad sign when the series creator leaves.

[tater]

I was stoked a while back about Storm of War (whatever it is now). What's the DRM deal.

[Freiwillige]

IL2 did have allot of faults and I believe a hint of bias but most things were resolved over time by the creators of the Sim. I think allot of the issues were the massive plane sets and trying to balance them against each other in a historical way I think a few could slip through the cracks and be a bit Uber or Porked.

But the thing that bugged me most about it all is that the same people who screamed and ranted about 3 KMH speed differences and historical data this and that and this roll rate is off 4% from original are the exact same people that go online and dogfight 50 feet off the ground alone like its world war one!

It was hard if not impossible even with squads to get people to fly together in a historical fashion. In real life if you went off half cocked and put the rest of your squadron in danger you got demoted, Punished, stripped of your wings and thats if you lived through your idiocy.

In the game there is no incentive to stop you from just doing whatever you want.

[Hottentot]

Ha, I knew I still had it on my computer somewhere! I got this text by email a long time ago and back then thought that whoever wrote it must have been a pissed off sim enthusiast. Reading this again made me appreciate the fact that the forums I frequent don't have these. Well, most of these anyway...

How to recognize a forum whiner?

Topic is agressive/frustrated. "OoW (Object of Whining) sucks!!!!!111"

Topic is started after being beaten in an online match.

Topic includes word under- or overpowered. "OoW is underpowered!", "OoW is overpowered". Can also include words "Über" (usually spelled "Uber") or "Nerfed".

Whiner's side is always underpowered or nerfed. The opposing side is always overpowered or uber.

If it is possible to play two different sides in the game (for example Allied and Axis) a forum whiner always plays only one side and ardently refuses to play the other.

In some cases may insult the players of the other side with funny historical names, for example referring to the players of the axis side as "Nazis". Especially true if these particular individuals happen to disagree with the whiner.

If a disagreeing person can't be insulted with anything personal, he can always be called fanboy. For example "Why am I wasting my time here, arguing with the fanboys?!"

Also if a disagreeing person can't be insulted with anything personal, he can always be called "n00b" because the whiner has bigger post count.

Can't be proven wrong. When in doubt, starts calling the opposition by names.

Freedom of speech in forums means that you are allowed to call anyone who disagrees with you with most colorful and imaginary insults and accuse them of flaming when they use similar insults against you.

Gets banned for insulting the other forum members on regular basis. Will come back after a while to demand his freedom of speech and accuse the moderators for being fascists (and usually fanboys too).

If a player of the other side starts a topic discussing the possible problems of his side, no matter how the opinion is expressed, a forum whiner will always come to the thread and shout "Stop whining lol!!!!111".

Will try to change every possible thread's topic to discuss the apparent problems of the game. Even if the original topic was about how cute the kittens are.

Believes in a big global conspiracy against his country, especially if the game is not made in whiner's country.

Politics is a topic related to EVERYTHING.

Loves the word "patch". "Where is my patch?!", "Fix this in the patch!" "Why is the patch late again?!"

Quotes a long post as a whole and says "Disagree".

Creates a thread about the same topic every week even when the old thread(s) is/are still active.

If whining about anything being underpowered, puts the word "my" in front of the OoW. For example "My Tiger tank is underpowered!" or "My P-51 should be much better!"

If the game has historical context (World War II for example), whiner always finds quotes and numbers to support his claims and happily ignores all the quotes and numbers that are against his claims.

Whiner will always find an ace who flew whiner's favourite plane/drove his favourite tank/commanded his favourite naval vessel. After that whiner will start a topic where he will loudly wonder why he can't do exactly as well in the game as the ace did in real life after playing for whole five minutes.

Whiner will always find smaller whiner to admire and support him.

Whiner will always find someone from the other side and call him whiner.

If the game gets a sequel, it sucks. Period. If it is somehow different to the original game it's not canonical enough and if it's similar to the original game, it's just a clone meant for ripping off innocent customers.

Whiner knows the sequel sucks years before it has been released. Will still buy the sequel and play it for an hour. After that will rush to the forums and create ten threads which all containt the same "I told you so" message.

If possible to have an answer from the dev. team (and sometimes even when it isn't), whiner will insult them and loudly accuse them of bias.

The first post of the topic includes sentence "Dev. team should fix this!"

Expects the dev. team to apologize and correct "the problem" within an hour.

Has many persons. For example "We pay your wages so you should listen to what we want" or "We don't like this!"

Always wants new playable stuff because it's "vital" and the game "is not complete without it." After getting it, comes back in a month demanding something else.

Complains about playable stuff he got for free in a patch because he isn't interested in it. Starts demanding something else (see previous.)

If the new playable stuff is interesting, it's not modelled correctly (most often it's underpowered or nerfed).

Knows everything about game making and how easy it is to create new content for any game. Still refuses to contribute anything himself.

Everything said by the dev. team is a promise. If "the promise" is not fulfilled, the dev. team is just a sorry bunch of liars.

Will threaten not to buy the future products and/or leave the forum for good if "the problem" is not fixed.

Even if the whiner leaves, he will always be back in less than a week to let everyone know how much the game being discussed sucks.

[tater]

What's the distilled wisdom for those of you following this at 1C?

A quick scan shows usual DRM complaints, but more worrying is the FR issue.

I read very little, but some guy defending the FRs got 40s over water, and 20s with "a decent few planes in the air." (and not everything was full detail, and a good rig)

For a flight sim, the game ever going under the mid 20s is unacceptable. Not for a heartbeat.

I thought the point of the new engine was realistic numbers of planes, too? I wanted to see hundreds of bombers at once.

Was that tossed ages ago after I stopped waiting for SOW?

[Feuer Frei!]

I fired this game up last night, and to me THIS post over at the Ubi Forums sums it up really really well:

Really... I felt like I was testing a game in it's alpha version. There is no good feel at all with the aircraft, the game frames per second drops and raises between 5-40 all the time and lowering the graphics didn't help any. The constant changing of framespersecond actually makes it feel more akward than a steady fps of 20 for example.

After lowering the graphcis to medium/low, the game looked bad. Very bad from what had been promised in trailers, it looked much worse than Il2 : Forgotten Battles for example. Other aspects besides graphics bothered me as well...

The Sounds. Oh my. Were the sounds in this game recorded with a cell phone on a busy street?! THE SOUNDS WERE AWFUL, much much worse than in Il2:FB (it had decent sounds actually) that I already mentioned. How can you go wrong so much...?

Startup of a single mission. I tried 2 single missions and one quick mission. It was... bad.
At the very start all I can see is me in my plane already in the sky (I specified in options that I want missions to include both take-off and landing). All I can hear at the start is terrible mess of screams, talking over eacdhother in a terrible barrage of commands, anknowledgements and other shouts wich made me feel as I was in the fiery pit of Hell. Actually, nothing was really happening, the AI is just allowed to speak over eachother (while filling the upper part of the screen with red text), and you, the player are supposed to get some sense of it all. Training missions were full of donkeypoo also. I am not new to the Il-2 series, nor flight sims, but if I was the training wouldn't help me at all. In takeoff training the player is supposed to manage to listen to poor quality sound of some flight instructor giving a monologue of a few minutes of continuos stream of information spontaneously, and you are supposed to get it all. Previous sentence was an example of how clear the instructor could be at times.
Then he gives you the command of the plane, and you are supposed to take-off in 20 seconds or so, or else he starts yelling at you in an akward way. There is no indication of what the controls are, nothing told about anything to be precise.

This leads to another problem I found. The whole control setting scheme. The game didn't even run at first with my joystick, which has always run any previous Il-2 from the get-to-go.
After a lot of binding and twicthing with axel settings and other commands in the ugly and inconvenient menu, I tried the controls out. About 1/3 of them actually worked! Wonderful.
I was left wondering why I can't bind elevator trim on my joystick buttons. Bleggh the whole progress of setting quick keys was almost as frustrating than trying to get those good for nothing magical boxes out of my view. Turns out I had to alt+click them (Nobody ever tells you anything in this game) and rightclick and choose close them.

There were other minor problems I encountered in the game, but in summary: Fix graphic issues/optimizations, redo sounds or improve quality, make the menu more user friendly(controls menu in particular), and really improve the way tutorials and AI work when it comes to communication.
I really do hope you work hard to patch the game... I didn't pay 50€ to be a beta/alpha tester.

I'll be dogfighting in Il2: Forgotten battles till you do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Ok take care now.

Spot on analysis :up:
Not spot on for game :down:

[Hottentot]

Sounds like some of the issues from IL-2 are still there, in addition to some new ones. I can wait for patches and such to fix technical problems, but I'm worried that there are still some things where the answer is "you is wrong: it's not a bug, it's a feature".

Is there any word on the street about the AI? I'm a huge fan of IL-2, but what has always annoyed me is that it essentially is an online sim. Whereas I am a dedicated single player. I don't want to see again, how Russian I-16s dogfight with a German Bf-109 at the altitude of 7,000 meters with no problems whatsoever. I don't want clouds that I can't hide in, because for the AI they don't exist. Or, most of all, AI that has no idea how to fly anything but single type of planes. I still remember how in a DCG-generated mission half of the Luftwaffe was wiped out in the first battles of Smolensk, because the AI thought that the Bf-109 is at its best when turn fighting at the treetop level. We, the mighty fleet of flying barrels of vodka (the Polikarpov I-16s) lost exactly three planes and I swear one of them managed to kill itself by crashing to the ground.

If the situation is still similar in this sim, I'll have to pass. Off to do some forum research I am...

[NeonSamurai]

Ha, I knew I still had it on my computer somewhere! I got this text by email a long time ago and back then thought that whoever wrote it must have been a pissed off sim enthusiast. Reading this again made me appreciate the fact that the forums I frequent don't have these. Well, most of these anyway...

That list takes me back to WW2 Online and the first 6 months after release. The amount of whining that came from the allied camp was unbelievable. Especially when considering that they had some of the better equipment of the war at the time.

The most laughable was when they were whining about the "glass gun char b". The Char B was a near indestructible monster to German tanks, even at pointblank range (like 5 yards away) shooting at its key weak points, the thing would still go on. The only effective way to stop it (other than an 88 gun), was to shoot out its guns at close range. So the allies started a massive whining campaign about the char having a glass gun, and got the devs to make the char's gun invulnerable in the end (and only for the char).

[Hottentot]

Aye, I think stuff like that is bound to happen in any such online game. I had no trouble recognizing some things from the good old Ubizoo IL-2 forum when reading that and I think there was a jab or two at Fallout 3 too.

That's one of the reason I like Silent Hunter 3. If a boat in it is modelled wrong, then at least it's modelled wrong for all of us. While I'm still hoping for a new Destroyer Command and could even find its multiplayer aspect interesting, I can only wonder if we would start getting similar topics too. Or maybe not here, but in the official forum. Were there any with the original DC and SH 2 combo?

The problem is that people want balance. Or no, that's not a problem, but in fact it contains two problems itself. One of them is that life isn't balanced. You go against an F-16 with a Fokker D.XXI and you're very likely to get blown to bits. But some people still insist that it should be a balanced fight, because otherwise the game isn't fun. The other thing is that their idea of "balance" is having a plane or whatever with which they couldn't lose even if they sank it into a pool of lava. I haven't ever seen anyone in any forum crying for balance that would make the opposing side's assets more challenging for the topic starter.

And unfortunately sometimes the loudest are the ones that get listened to. I'm afraid it will eventually happen with this title too. In some cases I think it happened with IL-2 too.

[Dowly]

Ah yes, WWIIOL. So much whine (and I have done it myself too... bloody lazors in Allied fighters! :O:), especially love the start of campaigns.

Allies: LOLOLOLOL!!11 We r pwning you!

Come tier 1/2 and Axis starts to have stuff to fight back the allied armor zerg.

Allies: WTF!? THIS IS BS!!

Come Tier 3/4 and Axis starts to push west.

Allies: Come on Rats! Do something about this! It's ridiculous!! *Joins Axis*

Yeah yeah, that's not entirely true, but that's how it always feel when I play the game (only play Axis).

:O:

[TarJak]

It was hard if not impossible even with squads to get people to fly together in a historical fashion. In real life if you went off half cocked and put the rest of your squadron in danger you got demoted, Punished, stripped of your wings and thats if you lived through your idiocy.

In the game there is no incentive to stop you from just doing whatever you want.
And that's why places like this exist: http://iijg53.com/

To encourage cooperation and mutual support flying rather than just random lone wolf hunting at 50m. We are recruiting so if you are up for it give it a go. We are looking at converting over to CoD when things get sorted out a little more than they are.

[Freiwillige]

And that's why places like this exist: http://iijg53.com/

To encourage cooperation and mutual support flying rather than just random lone wolf hunting at 50m. We are recruiting so if you are up for it give it a go. We are looking at converting over to CoD when things get sorted out a little more than they are.

I appreciate the offer TarJak but honestly I don't have a computer that is even capable of running IL21946 right now. I used to be a part of III JG/27 in 2002\2003 with Aristo running the outfit and it was fun be we never seemed to get more than a couple of us together at one time and I had a new computer I built that had lock up issues for two years and only during IL2! Finally figured out it was my power supply.

I will be building my next beast this year so maybe then I will take you up on that offer.:salute:

[TarJak]

I appreciate the offer TarJak but honestly I don't have a computer that is even capable of running IL21946 right now. I used to be a part of III JG/27 in 2002\2003 with Aristo running the outfit and it was fun be we never seemed to get more than a couple of us together at one time and I had a new computer I built that had lock up issues for two years and only during IL2! Finally figured out it was my power supply.

I will be building my next beast this year so maybe then I will take you up on that offer.:salute:
I was on earlier today with our US based schwarm and with 9 pilots up it was great fun. Shame about the PC.

[joea]

And I thought the SH5 s*** storm was bad. Well, can't say that the CoD problem wasn't brewing for some time. It's usually a bad sign when the series creator leaves.


Err Oleg left the series-where did you hear this???

[Blood_splat]

I think Oleg's son is having heart surgery. This is top priority right now for him.

[HunterICX]

Err Oleg left the series-where did you hear this???

According to this he is to leave game development:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=19350

HunterICX