View Full Version : This is what is wrong about our country
This is why our country is in the state it's in.
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[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0ZZHGO5sXw (http://www.pilotspub.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11090)
How many thousands of dollars did the government spend to take steal basket ball poles?
UnderseaLcpl
03-31-11, 09:11 AM
Your link goes to a website called Pilot's Pub that requires a log-in. Unless you're trying to make a jest about the state of education by saying "this is what's wrong about our country" and substituting steal for "steel", we may need a new link:O:
Your link goes to a website called Pilot's Pub that requires a log-in. Unless you're trying to make a jest about the state of education by saying "this is what's wrong about our country" and substituting steal for "steel", we may need a new link:O:
Sorry I fixed the link.
Betonov
03-31-11, 09:19 AM
It's a McDonald's and Blizzard joint conspiracy, to have less children playing basketball and more playing World of warcraft and eating junk food
No problem about the link, rather strange that they be removed :hmmm:
UnderseaLcpl
03-31-11, 09:23 AM
Ah, I see now. No worries, this is for our own good. We can't be trusted to make our own decisions, such as putting a basketball hoop over a cul-de-sac or near a street. A child might get hurt.
Yep, we're going to need a state-approved union crew and power of law to save us from ourselves.
Feuer Frei!
03-31-11, 09:25 AM
playing World of warcraft
12 million can't be wrong!
Ah, I see now. No worries, this is for our own good. We can't be trusted to make our own decisions, such as putting a basketball hoop over a cul-de-sac or near a street. A child might get hurt.
Yep, we're going to need a state-approved union crew and power of law to save us from ourselves.
That particular pole was up for 60 years according to the owner. Then the woman lied about letting him keep his own property. I'd be raising a big stink if I were him.
12 million can't be wrong!
Apparently they can. :D
Betonov
03-31-11, 09:37 AM
12 million can't be wrong!
Not saying it's not a good game, but more subscribers for Blizzard if children stop playing outside sports. What's next, baseball bats outlawed cause they can be used as weapons, footballs because someone might trip if they step on it, camping forbiden cause one might use the seclusion of the woods to plot a terrorist attack... and when will this kind of madness infect Europe. Goverments should encourage sports, not outlaw it
UnderseaLcpl
03-31-11, 09:46 AM
That particular pole was up for 60 years according to the owner. Then the woman lied about letting him keep his own property. I'd be raising a big stink if I were him.
I'm not him and it pisses me off, too. What you are witnessing there is what is called "the conceit of the annointed". In short, those with power assume they have the ability to use that power properly; in this case by lying and violating what are supposed to be property rights, and using the power of law to do it.
That is indeed, most of what is wrong about our country. Take what you just saw, and multiply it by a million and you've got a state. Multiply it by several hundred million and you've got a federal government.
mookiemookie
03-31-11, 09:49 AM
Petty tyrants. All of them. :nope:
Herr-Berbunch
03-31-11, 09:54 AM
12 million can't be wrong!
http://media.techeblog.com/images/wowcraft.jpg
Kids should be outside playing more! Common sense should prevail.
Tribesman
03-31-11, 10:19 AM
So they were responding to complaints from residents about basket ball hoops which were actually illegal.
Damn evil government, how dare they respond to complaints or enforce the planning regulations.
That particular pole was up for 60 years according to the owner.
Who only lived there a few years and has no way of knowing that, neighbours say it there in the mid 1990s.
UnderseaLcpl
03-31-11, 10:40 AM
So they were responding to complaints from residents about basket ball hoops which were actually illegal.
Damn evil government, how dare they respond to complaints or enforce the planning regulations.
That's not the point. The point is why such regulations are in place and how they got to be there. Evil government, indeed.
Who only lived there a few years and has no way of knowing that, neighbours say it there in the mid 1990s.
Well, if neighbors say it there, then it there.
Tribesman
03-31-11, 11:07 AM
That's not the point. The point is why such regulations are in place and how they got to be there. Evil government, indeed.
Why such regulations are in place?
Right of way regulations and clearzone regulations are in place because they are needed, just like building line regulations are needed.
So in this case you have a law that says for safety and access reasons you must maintain a clear area adjoining roads, that area varies according to the road usage and conditions it may be 3 feet wide it may be 30.
How the rules got to be there is a simple matter also, peoples idiocy has led to too many problems in the past which is why they have to make rules that even an idiot should be able to follow.
Well, if neighbors say it there, then it there.
Yes, big difference between 1950s and 1990s though isn't it.You could call it at least a 40 year difference which makes a claim about 60 years look rather over the top.
So to take the opening direction and turn it about entirely. How much money does the dept of transport have to take off taxpayers every year simply because idiots can't follow the laws?
Gargamel
03-31-11, 11:12 AM
Not casting an opinion one way or the other, but Ihave seen some serious injuries due to kids running into basketball poles.
But kids do stupid things, and they are equally likely to run into a wall, parked car, or polar bear.
Tribesman
03-31-11, 11:19 AM
Gargamel, kids do silly things, they get hurt, that is life.
However nowadays lots people sue others for their own stupidity and if anyone gets hurt it must be someone elses fault.
The Third Man
03-31-11, 11:49 AM
When I think about how risky the world was while I was growing up its a wonder I survived. Life is about risk. Trying to avoid it places other, more subtle risks on everyone.
No seatbelt laws, early on no seatbelts at all.
Plate glass windows, no safety glass, in retail stores even.
No bicycle helmets.
Fire arms purchased via mail order.
Transfats rampant.
The list goes on.......can You think of any?
Bilge_Rat
03-31-11, 12:00 PM
When I was 9 or 10, I would take the city bus to get to school. When my younger brother was old enough to go, my parents put me in charge of him. We would be out of the house in the morning and our parents only started worrying if we were not back by supper time. It was perfectly normal at the time (the 60s).
These days, parents feel obliged to watch over their kids all the time.
The Third Man
03-31-11, 12:03 PM
When I was 9 or 10, I would take the city bus to get to school. When my younger brother was old enough to go, my parents put me in charge of him. We would be out of the house in the morning and our parents only started worrying if we were not back by supper time. It was perfectly normal at the time (the 60s).
These days, parents feel obliged to watch over their kids all the time.
Or worse have someone else look over them....and if they don't? Lawyers acoming.
This isn't about child safety. The hoop was located on a cul de sac where it would be almost impossible for anyone to be injured by passing traffic.
This is just typical government inability to apply common sense to any situation.
It happens all too often. Rules that are designed to keep weapons out of school are applied to a little plastic army men a student uses for a class project. Zero tolerance for drugs gets extended to the needles a student carries to give himself insulin injections for his diabetes.
:nope:
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 12:05 PM
So they were responding to complaints from residents about basket ball hoops which were actually illegal.
Damn evil government, how dare they respond to complaints or enforce the planning regulations.
Who only lived there a few years and has no way of knowing that, neighbours say it there in the mid 1990s.
I'm with Tribesman on this. If the poles are illegal they must come down. Furthermore the hoops are annoying. I hear a damn basketball bouncing outside of my home everday during the summer. It sucks. I did not pay for a house courtside. Neither did these folks. If I wanted a court I would have built next to the community park were there are legal courts for tennis, basketball and skateboarding. I do not want to even discuss the damn illegal mini-bikes whizzing around the neighborhood.
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 12:06 PM
This isn't about child safety. The hoop was located on a cul de sac where it would be almost impossible for anyone to be injured by passing traffic.
This is just typical government inability to apply common sense to any situation.
It happens all too often. Rules that are designed to keep weapons out of school are applied to a little plastic army men a student uses for a class project. Zero tolerance for drugs gets extended to the needles a student carries to give himself insulin injections for his diabetes.
:nope:
I think this is more for neighborhood appearance and some sense of quiet that one expects while at home. Safety is just another factor...cul de sac or not.
UnderseaLcpl
03-31-11, 12:06 PM
Why such regulations are in place?
Right of way regulations and clearzone regulations are in place because they are needed, just like building line regulations are needed.
So in this case you have a law that says for safety and access reasons you must maintain a clear area adjoining roads, that area varies according to the road usage and conditions it may be 3 feet wide it may be 30.
How the rules got to be there is a simple matter also, peoples idiocy has led to too many problems in the past which is why they have to make rules that even an idiot should be able to follow.
So our solution is to replace people's idiocy with other people's idiocy, and then give those idiots legal power? And for the record, the rules that "even an idiot should be able to follow" are all but non-existant. People can't even figure out the stuff they were supposed to learn in driving school half the time, and you expect them to maintain awareness of building lines and codes?
Yes, big difference between 1950s and 1990s though isn't it.You could call it at least a 40 year difference which makes a claim about 60 years look rather over the top.
That wasn't actually a point. On the contrary, it was supposed to be a good-natured attempt to illustrate your lack of clarity in making a point and also a jibe at your typo, so I guess the joke's on me, but let's go ahead and discuss your next point, as I never said the 60 years claim was valid.
So to take the opening direction and turn it about entirely. How much money does the dept of transport have to take off taxpayers every year simply because idiots can't follow the laws?
I don't know. How much money do taxpayers spend every year to support the DOT to perform pointless and excessively expensive tasks like this? I'll bet it's a lot more than what it's worth. I'll also wager that they are extending their reach a bit beyond what is in the public interest.
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 12:08 PM
When I was 9 or 10, I would take the city bus to get to school. When my younger brother was old enough to go, my parents put me in charge of him. We would be out of the house in the morning and our parents only started worrying if we were not back by supper time. It was perfectly normal at the time (the 60s).
These days, parents feel obliged to watch over their kids all the time.
They have their reasons.....
Juvenile….. 801,332 cases, up 1.8% over 1996
Police enter most cases in ‘Juvenile’, including some nonfamily
abductions where there is no evidence of foul play.
Endangered .106,332 cases, up 7.8% over 1996
Defined as "missing", and in the company of another person under
circumstances indicating that his/her physical safety is in danger.
Involuntary .33,908 cases, up 8.3% over 1996
Defined as "missing" under circumstances indicating that the
disappearance was not voluntary, i.e., abduction or kidnapping.
http://www.lostchildren.org/STATISTICS.htm
Tribesman
03-31-11, 12:38 PM
People can't even figure out the stuff they were supposed to learn in driving school half the time, and you expect them to maintain awareness of building lines and codes?
if people can't figure out what they are supposed to know in order to drive then they face the consequences, that might be a fine, vehicle impounding or even some jailtime. If people can't figure out what they are supposed to know in order to reside in a property then they should pay the consequences just the same.
So since it is your comparison are you trying to say that drivers who break traffic laws shouldn't be punished?
I'll also wager that they are extending their reach a bit beyond what is in the public interest.
Yet you are objecting in this instance and its a prime example of them responding to public complaints.
Are you saying its in the publics best interest if the government just ignores their complaints when it comes to breaches of law?
RickC Sniper
03-31-11, 01:07 PM
This guy's hoop may have been at the end of a culdesac but I bet the others were not. The DOT cannot pull up one pole and then leave another just because it was located at a quieter location on the street.
If the law states the hoops need to be set back from the street to keep the kids off the street then so be it.
They can attempt to get the ordinance changed.
I think this is more for neighborhood appearance and some sense of quiet that one expects while at home. Safety is just another factor...cul de sac or not.
AVG neighborhood appearance and quiet are laudable things but those hoops were not removed because of those reasons. If that were the case then the other hoops in the neighborhood would have been taken as well.
As for your safety. If the pole was indeed there for 60 years there should be at least one accident on record. If not then that argument is invalid as well.
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 01:14 PM
AVG neighborhood appearance and quiet are laudable things but those hoops were not removed because of those reasons. If that were the case then the other hoops in the neighborhood would have been taken as well.
As for your safety. If the pole was indeed there for 60 years there should be at least one accident on record. If not then that argument is invalid as well.
One accident is one to many. Personally there should be zero hoops in the neighborhood. There should be no street hockey. Go to the community parks for that. Hell, they even have lights that illuminate well past dusk so the game can continue. :O:
Furthermore, the hoop's court is in the street. The street is made for cars to drive and park, not have a pick up game of basketball.
In the end I'm sure there is a law or bylaw concerning hoops. Furthmore the easement of around 6 feet along the streets belongs to the county/state. Therefore the pole is installed on government property. Over the years this hoop installations has been taken for granted and accepted as status quo. When one or several come down there is a problem and rights are taken away yadda yadda. The one neighbor used his rights under the law to have the poles removed. I suspect the entire neighborhood will have these hoops removed.
One accident is one to many. Personally there should be zero hoops in the neighborhood. There should be no street hockey. Go to the community parks for that. Hell, they even have lights that illuminate well past dusk so the game can continue. :O:
Well like I said no accidents in 60 years makes the safety argument invalid in that particular case.
The Third Man
03-31-11, 02:57 PM
One accident....happens every day. Life is about risk, to deny that is to deny our humanity. Adult or not we will all die. Agreed it is more difficult emotionally when our children die but to allow gov't or their miniions to curtail liberty based on what could happen is wrong. It makes us all slaves to non-life.
We used to play ball in the street (a dead end). Never had any problems. It's ridiculous, IMO. Kids growing up in areas like that all know. We'd yell "CAR!" and everyone gets out of the street.
And horror of horrors... our dogs ran free, too. All of them.
The the yuppies moved into CT from the city and didn't want their little angel to maybe have dog poop someplace on their 2 acres, and all the dogs had to be restrained (this was Wilton, CT, so the dogs were setters, labs, goldens, not pit bulls). The funniest thing? After they forced all the dogs to be locked up, the deer were no longer afraid of the unfenced parts of yards, and with deer come... deer ticks. With deer ticks come... Lyme Disease. I bet there was for more harm from Lyme recurring with a vengeance than from dogs. Not the same, but very similar (there were laws against loose dogs, but they were never enforced before the late 80s).
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 03:22 PM
Well like I said no accidents in 60 years makes the safety argument invalid in that particular case.
Invalid or not we can not skirt around easement of the surrounding soil to the road and sidewalk. It does not belong to the home owner and installing a pole of any kind is illegal unless the county/state allow the installation and with a permit! As stated, I'm sure these poles have been there for ages and illegally. Now they are removed because of a neighbor complaint. His complaint is not unfounded. In all reality the county could have issued tickets and fines for illegal structures without permit on government property.
One accident....happens every day. Life is about risk, to deny that is to deny our humanity
Thinking like this we might as well install the pole on the freeway. Put the pole in the street invites a higher risk than installing the pole in a proper place free of traffic. Effectively the pole is putting kids in harms way. That's irresponsible no?
I actually don't disagree with AVG, code is code. None the less, during these tough times with government spending, it's amazing they have so many excess State workers they have the time for this nonsense.
If Delaware isn't in the black, clearly they have too many workers on the payroll if they have the time for this. Fire as many as it takes to get into the black.
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 03:38 PM
Last fall, DelDOT sent letters to at least eight residents in the Radnor Green and Ashbourne Hills subdivisions saying their street-side basketball hoops violated the state’s Clear Zone law, which prohibits hoops, trees, shrubs and other objects from being within seven feet of the pavement's edge in subdivisions.
it's amazing they have so many excess State workers they have the time for this nonsense.
They made time to enact the Clear Zone Law they need to act on it were appropriate. The hoops included. No sense making laws if they are not enforced. I understand this man had notice sent to his home concerning the pole. Truth be told, if his kid was hit by a car he would probably attempt to sue the city for allowing him to install the pole in the street. :doh:
They made time to enact the Clear Zone Law they need to act on it were appropriate. The hoops included. No sense making laws if they are not enforced. I understand this man had notice sent to his home concerning the pole. Truth be told, if his kid was hit by a car he would probably attempt to sue the city for allowing him to install the pole in the street. :doh:
Seems pretty unlikely on a suburban cul de sac like that, though.
I have to say, I've not seen nets up like that in CT, course our roads were not nearly that smooth, either.
The obvious solution would be a portable net. Drag it to street, play ball, then drag it up to garage.
Ducimus
03-31-11, 04:59 PM
We used to play ball in the street (a dead end). Never had any problems. It's ridiculous, IMO. Kids growing up in areas like that all know. We'd yell "CAR!" and everyone gets out of the street.
And horror of horrors... our dogs ran free, too. All of them.
Sounds like my neighborhood when i was a kid. Great times to be a kid. I don't think you can find that anymore.
MaddogK
03-31-11, 05:14 PM
When I think about how risky the world was while I was growing up its a wonder I survived. Life is about risk. Trying to avoid it places other, more subtle risks on everyone.
No seatbelt laws, early on no seatbelts at all.
Plate glass windows, no safety glass, in retail stores even.
No bicycle helmets.
Fire arms purchased via mail order.
Transfats rampant.
The list goes on.......can You think of any?
Are you surprised that the younger generation was raised to be a bunch of morons ? Society had idiot-proofed so much the younger ones never had to learn 'what not to do',
don't point guns at your head for fun
don't drive like an idiot without your seatbelt on
don't fall off your bike near a tree
don't sit on the couch all day playing video games
etc...
Tribesman
03-31-11, 05:39 PM
Well like I said no accidents in 60 years makes the safety argument invalid in that particular case.
Yet there is no evidence it was there for 60 years and no evidence there was never an accident.....so that makes a very invalid arguement.
Sounds like my neighborhood when i was a kid. Great times to be a kid. I don't think you can find that anymore.
No, sadly you don't.
My mom had a ship's bell on the porch, and we'd head out til the bell rang, then come home for dinner. We, along with our dogs were simply "loose" most all the time.
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 06:07 PM
For me, growing up in my neighborhood, we could run the streets but it was not necessary. Basketball hoops were installed in the driveway area and not the road. Portable net setups was not available yet. If we played kickball it was in a yard. Skateboarding we did use the streets but more so to get to a friends house and then the drive way was used.
I have a portable hoop across the street my neighbor put up. It is friggin ugly. It attracts players all times of the day. The loose ball sometimes hit my cars. In short...it's a friggin nuisance. Sorry, just an item that does not need to find a home on the curb all the time.
Seems pretty unlikely on a suburban cul de sac like that, though.
True but the law needs to apply to every area in the neighborhood.
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 06:08 PM
My mom had a ship's bell on the porch, and we'd head out til the bell rang, then come home for dinner. We, along with our dogs were simply "loose" most all the time.
LOL...yup. We had the dinner bell also. Summertime...did not wear shoes unless going to church on Sunday. :DL Sometimes if light permitted we went out after dinner. Good times man!
Platapus
03-31-11, 06:13 PM
I think there is more to the story.
In general, as I said, I agree. If I had a party, and friends parked near the hoop and got their car damaged, I'd be annoyed. As you said, they can always use the driveway.
That said, if the net was in place when I bought the house, I'd have assumed that was just the way it was. If I had a problem, I'd have not bought a house.
BTW, the claim that those poles had been up 60 years is nonsense. Maybe A pole had been there, but those looked pretty new to me.
Invalid or not we can not skirt around easement of the surrounding soil to the road and sidewalk. It does not belong to the home owner and installing a pole of any kind is illegal unless the county/state allow the installation and with a permit! As stated, I'm sure these poles have been there for ages and illegally.
This isn't about child safety. This is the government being it's usual ham fisted self.
First I'd bet when the pole was installed there was no ordinance prohibiting the presence of said basketball hoop. That gives it at least a case for grandfather status.
Second, no way is any child at increased risk playing basketball in that cul de sac, nor is it the only game that is and will continue to be played there.
Now from what I read there are at least two investigations going on and a likely lawsuit. And with a state rep involved it's quite possible that regardless of the letter of the law the pole will end up right back in it's original location.
The screwed up part is that it didn't have to go down like that.
The ticket you mentioned could have just been issued and the matter decided without drama in front of a judge. Now the taxpayer will be out thousands in legal fees and union scale wages, not to mention that a neighborhood is now been divided.
That may well be, august. Still, if the law was on the books, and it was simply not enforced for a long time...
It's like the dogs running free. In Wilton, it was always illegal for dogs to run free. But it was simply never enforced. Had someone been bitten, they'd then tell the owner that of course it was illegal for the dog to even be loose, and they'd be in trouble.
At some point, new families moved in, and started complaining.
That may well be, august. Still, if the law was on the books, and it was simply not enforced for a long time...
It's like the dogs running free. In Wilton, it was always illegal for dogs to run free. But it was simply never enforced. Had someone been bitten, they'd then tell the owner that of course it was illegal for the dog to even be loose, and they'd be in trouble.
At some point, new families moved in, and started complaining.
That's assuming the law came before the hoop. Like I said I'd bet when the pole was installed there was no ordinance prohibiting the presence of said basketball hoop. That gives it at least a case for grandfather status and as such the matter should have been decided by a judge in a court of law. Not on somebodies front yard.
That's assuming the law came before the hoop. Like I said I'd bet when the pole was installed there was no ordinance prohibiting the presence of said basketball hoop. That gives it at least a case for grandfather status and as such the matter should have been decided by a judge in a court of law. Not on somebodies front yard.
That hoop? The blue one? Didn't look old to me, nor the others shown. Say there was a pole there decades ago. It rusts, and gets replaced with a new one... as soon as they replace the pole, it's no longer "existing." It's like working on anything, you touch the septic tank, sorry, it now has to be brought all the way up to code (the entire system, not just the tank).
They might have been a few years old, but none were terribly old I think.
Platapus
03-31-11, 06:47 PM
Yet there is no evidence it was there for 60 years and no evidence there was never an accident.....so that makes a very invalid arguement.
Did they even have these portable basketball hoops in 1951 and if so, is it possible that one built in 1951 is still standing 60 years later?
That hoop? The blue one? Didn't look old to me, nor the others shown. Say there was a pole there decades ago. It rusts, and gets replaced with a new one... as soon as they replace the pole, it's no longer "existing." It's like working on anything, you touch the septic tank, sorry, it now has to be brought all the way up to code (the entire system, not just the tank).
They might have been a few years old, but none were terribly old I think.
Maybe you're right but from what I read the plantiffs and their neighbors are claiming the pole has been there since the 1950's when the houses were built.
Did they even have these portable basketball hoops in 1951 and if so, is it possible that one built in 1951 is still standing 60 years later?
Portable?
Looked fairly permanent to me.
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 07:37 PM
This isn't about child safety. This is the government being it's usual ham fisted self.
No, it is an ordinance created to keep kids off the streets, poles for basketballs popping up at evey house and keeping noise down.
First I'd bet when the pole was installed there was no ordinance prohibiting the presence of said basketball hoop. That gives it at least a case for grandfather status
Law change all the time to suit the need. In Maryland if you steal a horse you can be lawfully hanged. This law was created years and years ago yet it is still on the books.
Second, no way is any child at increased risk playing basketball in that cul de sac, nor is it the only game that is and will continue to be played there.
How else can I explain it? The cul de sac is for parking and getting out of the driveway. Is it really fair to simply take over the nice tar circle for your basketball game impeding your neighbor from entering and exiting his driveway? Cul de sac circles are for cars...not games that will be continuned to play there. Being good a neighbor does not include being a nuisance concerning the right of way for cars that share the cul de sac.
Now from what I read there are at least two investigations going on and a likely lawsuit. And with a state rep involved it's quite possible that regardless of the letter of the law the pole will end up right back in it's original location.
I don't think so. Does this family really want to spend the money for legal representation to get a pole back in front of their house? They will not beat this in a million years. You can bet your next paycheck on that. Been through similar situation with my mothers dead end street that was made into a throughway because one on the city council wanted it that way. In short, it was faster route for him to get to the store once the roads were connected.
The screwed up part is that it didn't have to go down like that.
Really? The women was pole sitting. The man claims to have sent a letter/response? Was it certified mail and can you show return reciept? From what I see what he sad was all heresay.
The ticket you mentioned could have just been issued and the matter decided without drama in front of a judge. Now the taxpayer will be out thousands in legal fees and union scale wages, not to mention that a neighborhood is now been divided.
The drama was presented by the home owner. The taxpayer will not be out any fees. I do not see this going any further. Simply put, the home owner will probably not seek representation. So, to keep a neighborhood together no one is to say anything and allow fellow neighbors to do what they please? If that is the case I'm putting a Ford up on blocks out front and a couch on my porch so I can watch the kids play basketball all day and night. Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy......
Platapus
03-31-11, 07:39 PM
Portable?
Looked fairly permanent to me.
My error, I thought it was referring to one of the ones in the truck. :oops:
AVGWarhawk
03-31-11, 07:39 PM
That hoop? The blue one? Didn't look old to me, nor the others shown. Say there was a pole there decades ago. It rusts, and gets replaced with a new one... as soon as they replace the pole, it's no longer "existing." It's like working on anything, you touch the septic tank, sorry, it now has to be brought all the way up to code (the entire system, not just the tank).
They might have been a few years old, but none were terribly old I think.
I agree with tater.
Law change all the time to suit the need. In Maryland if you steal a horse you can be lawfully hanged. This law was created years and years ago yet it is still on the books.
Apples and oranges. The pole pre exists the law which was only passed in 2005. Like I have repeatedly said. This was a matter for a judge, not a bunch of gun toting cops dispensing sidewalk justice.
As for the rest of it, we'll see what happens.
Buddahaid
03-31-11, 08:25 PM
Regardless of who's in the right, the owner was lied to about keeping it. That in itself is the one big issue here to me. That POS cop should be demoted. At least this time the dishonest cop is caught on tape.
The owner would have likely put it right back up, but that is never to be known now. God I hate dishonest officials! These are supposed to be people you would look up to to as good examples. All we get here is a good example of using dishonesty to get your way. :nope:
Freiwillige
03-31-11, 08:33 PM
Several things come to mind.
1. That pole by its very modern design was not 60 years old. I would bet not even 20!
2. The Cop\city worker\girl whatever she was lied and it was caught on tape, file a grievance!:up:
3. Make the complaining nosy neighbors life hell:salute:
1. That pole by its very modern design was not 60 years old. I would bet not even 20!
What's modern about a round steel pole? You're not talking about the backboard are you?
UnderseaLcpl
03-31-11, 09:21 PM
if people can't figure out what they are supposed to know in order to drive then they face the consequences, that might be a fine, vehicle impounding or even some jailtime. If people can't figure out what they are supposed to know in order to reside in a property then they should pay the consequences just the same.
So since it is your comparison are you trying to say that drivers who break traffic laws shouldn't be punished?
Of course not, but thanks for trivializing me. What I'm saying is that we need to look at the system that causes these infractions in the first place. In the case of drivers, it's the government licensure process that is at fault. In the case of homeowners, it's the sheer incomprehensibility and sometimes ridiculous enforcement of myriad laws at the munincipal, county, state, and federal levels, all of which change all the time.
Yet you are objecting in this instance and its a prime example of them responding to public complaints. Are you saying its in the publics best interest if the government just ignores their complaints when it comes to breaches of law?
Very clever. I tell you truly, Tribesman, while you are indeed a master at turning people's comments against them, you also succeed admirably in all but destroying the point of discourse.
You already know that's not what I'm saying. And if you didn't you should know after reading my statement above. But in case you still do not understand, let me spell it out for you.
This is just one case of many where the government has responded to public complaints in a manner which voters who often do not understand their government could not have forseen, or were unwilling to see. Either way, it doesn't matter. While this is a small, and probably isolated example, it is one that many Americans can sympathize with, particularly conservatives.
Given the general disillusionment with government, and the current conservative stance of reducing the influence of said government, it is not hard to see why people would offer commentary on this issue, especially in the case of conservatives, as it is an example they can identify with. More succinctly, it is a close-to-home example of government failure and disinterest towards the people it is supposed to serve. There is dissatisfaction with the sytem as a whole, and that is a concern that needs to be discussed. Preferably without brief attack comments that say nothing at all.
OK.....
If one person complains about an illegal basketball hoop, the Gov't mobilizes trucks, machinery, and manpower to combat the crisis.
If millions of Americans complain about illigal immigration, or runaway spending, the Gov't will "study" the issue.
Good to know we have our priorities straight.
nikimcbee
03-31-11, 11:03 PM
That god for local gubmint. That looks like something portland would do.:o
nikimcbee
03-31-11, 11:05 PM
Sounds like they need Scott Walker...
I'll call Aramike on the batphone.
The Third Man
03-31-11, 11:06 PM
What's modern about a round pole?
That's what she said.....lol
Tribesman
04-01-11, 03:37 AM
Maybe you're right but from what I read the plantiffs and their neighbors are claiming the pole has been there since the 1950's when the houses were built.
No, the owner who moved in just a few years ago is claiming it was there since the 1950s, the neighbours are saying it was there in the 1990s.
The owner has no knowledge which could back up his claim.
That makes the 60 year line pure bull.
This was a matter for a judge, not a bunch of gun toting cops dispensing sidewalk justice.
That particular pole was subject to a process going back months, just like all the others removed that day were. The bunch of cops were there because the unlike the other families having their poles removed this couple were trying to stop the workers from working.
@Undersea.
Of course not, but thanks for trivializing me.
That doesn't trivialise you, it just shows the comparison you drew as what it was.
In the case of homeowners, it's the sheer incomprehensibility and sometimes ridiculous enforcement of myriad laws at the munincipal, county, state, and federal levels, all of which change all the time.
It isn't incomprehensible, clearwayzones are well worked out and well reasoned.
But I do understand what you are saying, I encounter it very often. I turn up to start a project, the owner cannot understand why the 8 ft at the front of their land isn't really theirs to do with as they wish anymore.
It has been spelt out at every stage all the way through their applications, its there on the plans they paid to have drawn up for themselves, its written in plain language on every document relating to building their new home....yet they still don't "know".
They will of course try and reason that the old stone wall there must have been there for maybe hundreds of years so there can be no real reason why their new stone wall must be put 8ft back even though the reason has been spelt out and is as obvious as their new home will be
Even when they know and understand they often still don't quite know.
More succinctly, it is a close-to-home example of government failure and disinterest towards the people it is supposed to serve.
You cannot have it both ways, the government was responding to complaints, it had complaints from people who wanted the hoops removed and counter complaints from people who wanted the hoops retained.
The laws say the poles were illegal so the government only had one avenue, the people who wanted the poles retained had only one avenue, the appeals process. It appears they tried that avenue for the past 6 months and had failed.
The only other option would be to change the clearzone laws which quite frankly would make no sense to do.
GoldenRivet
04-01-11, 04:51 AM
Yup.
This guy got screwed over.
The face of America is changing folks. just like the story says, some rich prick complained about only the basketball poles on his route into and out of the neighborhood and he got his way.
when i was a kid, everyone had a basketball pole in their yard, driveway or street. a very few still do.
we used to play football on the neighborhood roads... used to skate there too. now you have these people who's sole purpose in life is to ruin the hell out of it for everyone. It's not any trouble for me to slow down or stop for 10 seconds while a few kids call time out and clear the road off to the sidelines. But some people just can't stand that sort of thing. i dont get it.
We had this really shabby country road down the street from our house... badly needed paving. but nobody complained because it was all farmers and ranchers who were used to things like that and had trucks that could handle the ride.
but there was this one rich bitch who lived about half way down the road... complained every single day - nobody else did though.
i kid you not... one day that little road was paved from the highway - about 2 miles right up to his driveway and the new asphalt abruptly stopped. :doh:
reminds me of the time when i was about 15 years old. our neighborhood had a horrible mailbox bashing problem. Kids would load up in the car and grab a baseball bat and take turns demolishing mailboxes as they drove by all down the street late at night. (we had a couple of kids we suspected)
call the police, complain to the post office, replace the box. rinse wash repeat and they never do anything about it...
so, my dad got some 1/2 inch steel plate and 8 whole feet of 6 inch steel pipe and borrowed his buddy's welder.
he made a mailbox - that looked like any other regular mailbox. except it was made of 1/2 inch thick steel and the pole was buried about 4 feet into the ground.
a dump truck could have run that thing over and it would have been reusable.
anyhow... a few weeks went by and one Saturday morning a state trooper showed up and told us we had to remove it... no explanation. no reasons. just that it had to be removed.
One couldn't tell by looking at it that it was 1/2 inch thick steel... someone had to complain. could have been a mailman who complained... could have been some punk kid's mommy... who knows?
but
Monday when i showed up at school - the little **** who we suspected of being one of the mailbox bashers had a cast on his right arm and a wrist brace on his left.
I cant say he got hurt attempting to bash our mailbox... but if he did, he got what he had coming.
but i can say the neighborhood never had a mailbox bashing problem again.
Tribesman
04-01-11, 06:02 AM
a dump truck could have run that thing over and it would have been reusable.
Or a car could have hit it and been split in half
I wonder why the DOT gives guidlines for mailboxes next to roads:hmmm:
GoldenRivet
04-01-11, 06:07 AM
Could have I suppose, if they raced through the brick pylons and steel 3 rail fence first.
Not every situation conforms to some menial regulation.
Edit:
besides... anyone going fast enough on a back country road so as to hit something and split their car in half deserves what they got IMHO on this particular 6 mile stretch of "road" i think there are about 5 houses on his side of the street... 3 on the other. all of them were targeted for mailbox bashing until that weekend.
AVGWarhawk
04-01-11, 09:10 AM
That covers it.
You cannot have it both ways, the government was responding to complaints, it had complaints from people who wanted the hoops removed and counter complaints from people who wanted the hoops retained.
The laws say the poles were illegal so the government only had one avenue, the people who wanted the poles retained had only one avenue, the appeals process. It appears they tried that avenue for the past 6 months and had failed.
The only other option would be to change the clearzone laws which quite frankly would make no sense to do.
Much of the road hazard notion is hyperbole, it was a cul de sac, no? Regardless, if they are not allowed to put a post/fence/whatever there by code, then they are not allowed to. As soon as it is complained about that's it, away it goes.
BTW, that pole was clearly new(ish), and not because of the shape, but because it was glassy smooth. Any old pole would need to have been repainted many times, and in that part of the country it WOULD have rust, so the repaint would be lumpy. Saying it was from the 90s might even be generous.
As an aside, had they dug a big hole at the top of their driveway ready to accept the pole, I bet the workers might have moved it for them...
HunterICX
04-01-11, 10:42 AM
Or a car could have hit it and been split in half
for the sake of having an argument that's a really poor example.
the only ones I have to blame actually are the dumb fokes that do not take responsibility for their stupidity and go out blame others or sue around.
thought it's a pitty that governements gives ear to all this and act on it...to protect the stupid.
So if some 17 yr old in a corvette is speeding at a 60 - 80 mph loses controll and kills himself as the car is beeing cut in half by GR's mailbox I sure hope GR goes after the kids parents so they pay for the damages done on the brick pylons, fence, mailbox and the damn lawn.
HunterICX
UnderseaLcpl
04-01-11, 02:44 PM
That doesn't trivialise you, it just shows the comparison you drew as what it was.
But I do understand what you are saying, I encounter it very often. I turn up to start a project, the owner cannot understand why the 8 ft at the front of their land isn't really theirs to do with as they wish anymore.
It has been spelt out at every stage all the way through their applications, its there on the plans they paid to have drawn up for themselves, its written in plain language on every document relating to building their new home....yet they still don't "know".
They will of course try and reason that the old stone wall there must have been there for maybe hundreds of years so there can be no real reason why their new stone wall must be put 8ft back even though the reason has been spelt out and is as obvious as their new home will be
Even when they know and understand they often still don't quite know.
We're of common ground there. However I still believe that there is a failure in the system since such things seem to occur so often, and it needs to be identified and rectified. To be fair, I think part of it is just complacency on the part of the individual as well, but how did it get there?
You cannot have it both ways, the government was responding to complaints, it had complaints from people who wanted the hoops removed and counter complaints from people who wanted the hoops retained.
The laws say the poles were illegal so the government only had one avenue, the people who wanted the poles retained had only one avenue, the appeals process. It appears they tried that avenue for the past 6 months and had failed.
The only other option would be to change the clearzone laws which quite frankly would make no sense to do.
I don't want it both ways. I want to remove government from the equation as much as humanly possible. I want fundamental individual rights and property rights to be respected. I do not approve the notion of small armies of government workers with the power of law marching in and declaring that they can do whatever they want with one's property because complaints were filed or it is in the community interest, especially for things as trivial as this.
Let the individual take responsibility instead of the commmunity. For one thing, they'd be a lot more careful about reading and understanding what should be a much simpler set of building laws, at least here. It's your property and you can do whatever you want with it, unless you cause damage of some kind by doing so, in which case you are liable. Simple.
Indeed, that's supposed to be a tenet of the system we have now, but there is one important difference: pre-emption. When people get their wires crossed and start thinking that a properly-run agency can protect them from such incidents in the first place, they inadvertently do two things: (1) They begin to absolve themselves of personal responsibility and the vigilance that accompanies it. And (2) they unknowingly task said agency with an impossible task, which it tries its best to perform, but never can, and ends up trampling individual rights in the process. Expensively, I might add.
Tribesman
04-01-11, 02:48 PM
@tater
Much of the road hazard notion is hyperbole, it was a cul de sac, no?
Correct, it wasn't a cul de sac.
It was a road which led to another road which itself was a cul de sac.
@Hunter
for the sake of having an argument that's a really poor example.
Its the one they use for that thing, it has to be designed to bend and also remain intact, it must also have the box securely attached so it doesn't fly off through the windshield.
As an aside, had they dug a big hole at the top of their driveway ready to accept the pole, I bet the workers might have moved it for them...
They might have, but probably the homwe owners would first have had to pay the fine for the post and then the charge for having it retuned to them off the front of the machine.
the only ones I have to blame actually are the dumb fokes that do not take responsibility for their stupidity and go out blame others or sue around.
Blame the public and blame the corporations. If someone puts in a claim the insurance company will always try and use contributary factors, the driver may be fully at fault but the owner of the thing they hit may be partially liable, the local authority may also be liable if the object is there when it shouldn't be and they failed to enforce its removal.
That is business, minding the bottom line and chasing the dollar
@Undersea
I don't want it both ways. I want to remove government from the equation as much as humanly possible.
There lies the problem , removal of government from the equation as much as humanly possible...humans being the problem.
It would be easy to remove the government from the equation if people and companies would act responsibly, but they don't.
The government and its agencies may be idiots , but they are needed because of all the other idiots.
It is a pertpetual cycle
At 52 seconds in the video, you see the pole for the first time. It's in a cul de sac. That is not a road to one, the cars are nosed in with loads of room behind. At 1:05 the wife is on the pole, and it is clearly a cul de sac.
Again, code is code, but from a safety standpoint, a car speeding enough to be "cut in half" by the pole would end up in a living room without the pole. In that case the pole actually increases safety ;)
Tribesman
04-01-11, 02:57 PM
At 52 seconds in the video
Read the accompanying article thats linked off the video
I hadn't even seen the link, actually.
OK, just looked, what is your point? They say it's a cul de sac, and the one with the wife in it (at the end of the street, on the cul de sac) was the only to survive the morning. Clearly it didn't survive the day.
I knew there were others, I was commenting on the parents who protested—the ones that live at the cul de sac.
GoldenRivet
04-01-11, 03:25 PM
So if some 17 yr old in a corvette is speeding at a 60 - 80 mph loses controll and kills himself as the car is beeing cut in half by GR's mailbox I sure hope GR goes after the kids parents so they pay for the damages done on the brick pylons, fence, mailbox and the damn lawn.
HunterICX
naaa, thats what insurance is for.
I'd leave the parents to grieve and bury their little dumb ass in peace. :up:
questions i would have though:
1. what idiot gives a 17 year old kid a corvette?
2. Why is said kid driving a corvette 60-80 mph down something like this (http://www.davidhanauer.com/buckscounty/photos/country_road.jpg)?
the road has since been greatly improved and does see corvette traffic occasionally. but back in 1995... mostly pickup trucks.
yes, that mailbox would have made short work of a corvette, and i dont doubt for a minute that it would have probably split one in half.
if the decision had to be made to put the mailbox up again (he still has it in a shed) i'm sure he would choose to put it up if the circumstances were the same.
but the road has been widened to 2 lanes, the speed limit is now 60 mph, there is about 10-15 feet of grass on either side of the street now, and the brick and steel columns at the entry to the driveway have been moved back several feet leaving the mailbox exposed to the dangers of out of control vehicles - with all those changes - today, i highly doubt he would put the mailbox up given to those considerations.
back then, he was a man frustrated with the system.
technically the mailbox is federal property, and mailbox bashing, though juvenile is technically a federal offense according to the postmaster... yet the cost of replacing the mailbox rests solely with the end user.
the state troopers didnt care about our plight, the sheriffs department did nothing, and the post office treated it as if it were our problem alone.
he took matters into his own hands, and the problem went away - permanently.
Tribesman
04-01-11, 03:51 PM
and the one with the wife in it (at the end of the street, on the cul de sac)
It isn't at the end of the street, that is a turning cicle, one of several on the street, the road heads off in two directions
GoldenRivet
04-01-11, 04:16 PM
It isn't at the end of the street, that is a turning cicle, one of several on the street, the road heads off in two directions
what difference should it make that the guy has a basketball goal???
UnderseaLcpl
04-01-11, 04:21 PM
There lies the problem , removal of government from the equation as much as humanly possible...humans being the problem.
It would be easy to remove the government from the equation if people and companies would act responsibly, but they don't.
The government and its agencies may be idiots , but they are needed because of all the other idiots.
It is a pertpetual cycle
That's a pretty bleak perspective. I understand what you're saying, even in the case of companies and individuals I often champion; you're right, they don't always act responsibly. But are we to resign ourselves to this perpetual cycle? Are we to accept state-enforced idiocy over individual idiocy just because we are humans and we are idiots? I can't imagine that's what you're trying to say. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
And while I'm at it, I'd like to say that it is nice to have an actual discussion with you rather than having to respond to one-line quips that are open to all kinds of interpretation. We should do this more often.
Tribesman
04-01-11, 04:39 PM
what difference should it make that the guy has a basketball goal???
Because its on a public road, it is a public road not a basketball court.
Are we to accept state-enforced idiocy over individual idiocy just because we are humans and we are idiots?
Well yes, because you may want to enforce your own version by going out and breaking your neighbours legs and pulling down the pole yourself and their are enough idiots who would respond to that with gasoline and matches to your residence. At least with state idiocy there are reasonable limits, individual idiots can be limitless.
GoldenRivet
04-01-11, 04:48 PM
Because its on a public road, it is a public road not a basketball court.
ok good now my reply:
do you not see the problem with the rich guy complaining about the basketball goals on only one section of the street and not another?
additionally, i can drive down almost any neighborhood road in my town and see dozens of those basketball goals on the side of the street.
what is children playing really hurting?
If i were this guy i would get a portable basketball goal and have the kids play on it daily. when they are done, i would wheel it back into the garage or wherever.
this is truly trivial, and there is no doubt that the complainer is technically correct.
and when one is a bureaucratic moron who wears their own anus for a necklace - technically correct - is the most satisfying type of correct.
however, i think the argument that "this is whats wrong with our country" stands... it is in fact what is wrong with our country when two neighbors who live next door to one another cannot reach a mutually acceptable compromise and big brother has to get involved on a microscopic level.
ass hats like these are the very reason i am saving money to buy that land i been talkin about.
I will not have to listen to any more cRAP music booming through the whole neighborhood. I wont have to put up with the GD mormons ringing my doorbell trying to save my soul.
Im going to go out there and grow a garden of various types of vegetables, feed them to myself and my family, i will have chickens who lay eggs and we will eat them, i will walk out the front door in the morning in my underwear and whip out my junk and piss off the front porch while i sip coffee... the GD MF government wont have anything to say about any of it and the rest of the world can kiss my ass LMAO :up:
Turning circle? One, I simply don't see the 2 roads, just one. At what time frame do you see 2 streets coming out? I just looked again, and facing out from the pole it would have to be immediately right if it is there at all. Gimme a time click, I'm at a loss.
Two, if a car hit the pol fast enough to cause damage, it would necessarily be heading at a house at a high rate of speed, even if it is a "turning circle." (I grew up on the east coast, and I can't remember ever seeing one of those, though cul de sacs are very common. Maybe they have them in Delaware, and not in CT).
I didn't see the reference in the article, but I looked at google earth, and found the street. You are right, it is a wide area in a street at a turn.
If you put in 101 Hilldale Court Claymont, Delaware and go to street view you can see it. Still, it's not remotely a traffic hazard, though. Any car able to hit the pole would necessarily be on a direct path to hit the cars in the driveway of 101, or the house itself assuming it was going fast enough. The house to the right has a tree about where the pole would be, so if proximity to the road is a hazard, so is that tree.
As I said, if the code says it must go... tough. I'm just saying it's not a hazard.
Tribesman
04-01-11, 05:48 PM
do you not see the problem with the rich guy complaining about the basketball goals on only one section of the street and not another?
What on earth makes you think the people complaining were rich?
Does that old mans sporting past mean he is any wealthier than his neighbours?
ass hats like these are the very reason i am saving money to buy that land i been talkin about.
Buying land doesn't free you from ass hats, you can live in the arse end of nowhere miles from anyone and still get grief. All that "my property I can do what I like stuff" is a myth and it always has been in every country throughout history.
@Tater.
You still don't get it, there is a combination of factors.
Does a tree give rise to people being out in the public road throwing balls around?
HunterICX
04-01-11, 06:08 PM
naaa, thats what insurance is for.
I'd leave the parents to grieve and bury their little dumb ass in peace. :up:
questions i would have though:
1. what idiot gives a 17 year old kid a corvette?
Wait...you say there are responsible parents in the USA?
Some 18-20 yr olds that just have their license here drive these street tuned Seat Ibiza's or heck how in the name he got the money for it or parents that like to spoil their kids a BMW M3
2. Why is said kid driving a corvette 60-80 mph down something like this (http://www.davidhanauer.com/buckscounty/photos/country_road.jpg)?
you tell me, they do that over here on roads even less suitable.
HunterICX
I realize that kids would be in the street to play hoops. But the kids will otherwise be playing stickball in the street, or riding bikes in the street, etc. The kids will play in the street—we did. They will see a car, and yell, CAR!
As I said, if the code says it goes, it goes.
RickC Sniper
04-01-11, 07:47 PM
so, my dad got some 1/2 inch steel plate and 8 whole feet of 6 inch steel pipe and borrowed his buddy's welder.
he made a mailbox - that looked like any other regular mailbox. except it was made of 1/2 inch thick steel and the pole was buried about 4 feet into the ground.
Golden Rivet I am curious.
Just what was illegal about your dad's beefed up mailbox?
BTW I like his style. :shucks:
Takeda Shingen
04-01-11, 07:51 PM
Golden Rivet I am curious.
Just what was illegal about your dad's beefed up mailbox?
I was wondering that as well.
GoldenRivet
04-01-11, 07:55 PM
It wasn't pusseee enough for some GD liberal I guess. LOL
GoldenRivet
04-01-11, 08:02 PM
Buying land doesn't free you from ass hats, you can live in the arse end of nowhere miles from anyone and still get grief. All that "my property I can do what I like stuff" is a myth
I beg to differ when the nearest road or house is 2 miles away.
"tribesman" will be the first name I write into the soil with my glorious stream of piss.
As I said, if the code says it goes, it goes.
Well not necessarily. Code variations are granted all the time. I just think given the specifics of the situation this would have been better resolved without the state having to bring their guns and intimidation into it.
UnderseaLcpl
04-01-11, 08:37 PM
Well yes, because you may want to enforce your own version by going out and breaking your neighbours legs and pulling down the pole yourself and their are enough idiots who would respond to that with gasoline and matches to your residence. At least with state idiocy there are reasonable limits, individual idiots can be limitless.
Whoa, hang on there. You're taking what I said and charging it completely off a cliff. I already stated that I was concerned about individual rights and property rights. That doesn't include the right to break anybody's legs or burn anything down. To clarify, I am a proponent of Lockean rights, and a government that pretty much only enforces violations of those rights. Sorry if I gave you some other impression. I am not an anarchist. And btw, state idiocy is no more limited than individual idiocy, in fact it's often worse and more widespread because it has a state behind it.
That said and with context established, let's start again.
You seem resigned to the concept that people are in need of regulation and government is needed to regulate them. I agree upon that point. Where I disagree and what I cannot understand is why, if you are already aware of the perpetual cycle of idiocy in individuals and governments, you are resigned to saying it cannot be broken. I think it can. With a government strictly limited in its discretionary powers and designed to enforce Lockean rights, government idiocy is largely eliminated. No more cycle. Beyond that we go into the realm of free societies and free markets and their shortfalls and benefits and all that, which we can discuss if you wish but we don't need to.
I would like to know what system you would like to see, if you had the power to effect it, but bearing in mind human stupidity. Are you resigned to the current system? Are you not? I'd take it as a personal favor if you would explain.
Well not necessarily. Code variations are granted all the time. I just think given the specifics of the situation this would have been better resolved without the state having to bring their guns and intimidation into it.
That's true. Seems like if it's a right of way, that might be possible. OTOH, as it related to roads, they might well be SOL. It could have been handled differently on the part of both parties.
Myself, I'm the guy who brings a pot of coffee down to workers. Then when I ask if they can move a boulder a few feet with their front loader later they're happy to oblige (my yard is mostly huge rocks, desert plants, and dirt) :)
Tribesman
04-02-11, 12:46 AM
I beg to differ when the nearest road or house is 2 miles away.
You can beg all you like, it makes no difference, 2 miles or a hundred miles, the earth is still too small to escape from ass hats.
@Undersea
Whoa, hang on there. You're taking what I said and charging it completely off a cliff.
No, thats following the line to the edge and looking at the drop.
The trouble with Lockean ideology is like all ideologies it is deeply flawed, relevant to this aspect is the fundamental flaw in his view of human nature and its relation to property and rights in the angles of respect and reasonableness.
Are you resigned to the current system? Are you not? I'd take it as a personal favor if you would explain.
There have been hundreds of revolutions peaceful or otherwise, all about the rights of the people, property rights and rights to representation, better government, accountable government, limited government..... all have failed in their essential dreams and been left with just a watered down version of that which they were supposed to replace, over a short period of time those watered down versions transform themselves back into the very thing they were supposed to replace.
GoldenRivet
04-02-11, 01:09 AM
You can beg all you like, it makes no difference, 2 miles or a hundred miles, the earth is still too small to escape from ass hats.
i think you misunderstand.
i dont mean to escape from ass hats - obviously you cant do that. what i mean from escape "ass hats" is to get away from the places where people who are likely to lodge complaints with the city council, the sheriffs department, the national guard, the governor and the state representative over something totally stupid.
however i can remove myself from the situation of having someone complain because a basketball goal too close to some random road, or someone calling the police because I'm listening to my music too loud, or some crabby undersexed housewife and her 10 year old daughter having me arrested for indecent exposure within my own home or my garage brick color or pattern not conforming to the ideal specifications as dictated by some "home owners society", or having to contact some random department of something or other before i plant or cut down a tree or shrub or bush etc
or any number of other similar ridiculous things.
I dont know how they do things in "Galway, Eire" but here in Texas if i build my residence outside of the city limits and i want a 400 yard shooting range in my back yard, or if i want to plow under the back 40 to put in a baseball field, or if i want to have a party and build a bonfire (assuming there isnt a burn ban due to drought) - that's all my business, and if someone doesn't like it I'm well within my right to either reach a compromise with them - or tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.
Its actually really great to be out miles from the nearest highway, sitting on the back porch with a cold beer... the only sound being a random bird or distant coyotes. No car horns, no loud music, nobody knocking on my door to sell me a vacuum cleaner - the kind of place where you move in and the neighbors ride over on horseback to welcome you to the "neighborhood".
i used to live in such a place - it may be hard for you to believe but i used to ride horses through the drive through at the nearest fast food joint.
my circumstances now require me to live in the urban jungle... but some day i will return to the countryside.
Tribesman
04-02-11, 02:23 AM
what i mean from escape "ass hats" is to get away from the places where people who are likely to lodge complaints with the city council, the sheriffs department, the national guard, the governor and the state representative over something totally stupid.
But stupidity knows no bounds, you are old enough to know that.
it may be hard for you to believe but i used to ride horses through the drive through at the nearest fast food joint.
:up:
Did you ever get grief over parking your horse in a car park?
Its funny when some dumb driver shouts abuse about animals on the road when it is them who obviously doesn't know the laws of the road
Though horses give another good example about proper land use. Where my father lives they are up in arms over some local riders, there are plenty of tracks up the mountain, they can ride on any of the roads, the canals have bridleways not footpaths so thats fine to use them, they can go down through the nature reserve...all fine hunky dory and no worries. Yet some pricks consider the local soccer and rugby pitches to be ideal gallops.
Just like a road is for traffic not basket ball a ball field is for ball games not horse riding.
The locals are complaining, would the local authorities be wrong to enforce the laws, after all horses have always run around on fields so there cannot be anything wrong with it.
that's all my business, and if someone doesn't like it I'm well within my right to either reach a compromise with them - or tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.
But of course if you cannot reach a compromise and they don't want to stick it where the sun don't shine they can call in the lawyers or the local authorites and see what code they can dig up
GoldenRivet
04-02-11, 03:24 AM
honestly, in a place like Texas or Idaho or Wyoming etc you would be hard pressed to find many codes or regulations outside city limits. and besides... if they cant see it from the road or from their home... it may as well not exist and in that case, what is there to file a complaint over?
and nobody every really got wound up about horses in the car park or the drive through lane. :up:
living in rural areas is nice... i find that folks are pretty laid back and really dont get excited about too much of anything. if you hear a gunshot out there someone ran off a coyote or they were sighting in a hunting rifle. you hear a gunshot in the city... a cop or a drug dealer or a jealous husband was probably involved.
its simple living. in 20 years of living outside the city limits i never experienced any confrontation or discourse with any neighbor.
in the city on the other hand... i had my first "confrontation" about 3 weeks after moving in. it was a noise complaint against me... on a weekend when i was in another state. :doh: i suppose my bottom line is that sometimes folks just look for a reason to file a complaint or piss and moan about something.
country - city - its two totally different schools of thought.
there are people in the city who tend to be so uptight and tense and confrontational over even the smallest of issues.
i guess i could understand why. my office window is a good 6 feet from my neighbor's front patio. our houses dont have any "elbow room" if you know what i mean.
as for the guy with the basketball goal - if he was in violation of some code... thats too bad for him.
I dont think the discussion is really about whether or not he was right or wrong... at least for me it isnt.
the discussion is about people just being able to get along and reach a compromise... and i think thats what is wrong with our country - that is that we are down to complaining about - and getting some level of government involved in our little microscopic squabbles.
where i grew up we had a neighbor come over and he told us that water runoff from a horse pasture was flooding part of his property with mud and horse waste.
discourse? no
confrontation? no
it was clear that there was a problem and the right thing to do was to address it.
my dad and I got out our work gloves, cranked up the tractor.
the neighbor and his son did the same... and we got out there together and planed that whole pasture out and built a small retaining wall and made it right. problem solved.... now we could get back to exchanging cookies and cakes for Christmas and Thanksgiving etc.
it was damned satisfying. and i just don't see why some folks have such a hard time with things like that.
Tribesman
04-02-11, 05:43 AM
Its funny you make that rural urban distiction, especially with horses.
With me it was always country pubs that got arsy about horses. They might kick a car, they might kick a person, they might pull down that fence, they are a health hazard!!!!! I even had one woman complain they were eating the grass on the verge and it wouldn't look even?????:doh:
I only ever got grief from one town establishment and that was because his wife hadn't told him it was all OK
UnderseaLcpl
04-02-11, 11:20 AM
No, thats following the line to the edge and looking at the drop.
The trouble with Lockean ideology is like all ideologies it is deeply flawed, relevant to this aspect is the fundamental flaw in his view of human nature and its relation to property and rights in the angles of respect and reasonableness.
I'd like to discuss that assertion further but that might be a long discussion. Perhaps we should best leave it for another time.
There have been hundreds of revolutions peaceful or otherwise, all about the rights of the people, property rights and rights to representation, better government, accountable government, limited government..... all have failed in their essential dreams and been left with just a watered down version of that which they were supposed to replace, over a short period of time those watered down versions transform themselves back into the very thing they were supposed to replace.
I know. But that doesn't mean I'm about to give up.
CaptainMattJ.
04-02-11, 08:55 PM
This is bull****.
Nowadays people can sue for literally the most retarded, selfish greedy thing you could POSSIBLY imagine. And then selfish A HOLES get to whine to the cops about kids getting exercise on a cul de sac RIGHT OUTSIDE THEIR OWN PROPERTY and the cops get to forcefully tear it down, lie to the owners, and tell them what they can and cant say.
The revolution is coming. Grab your Rifles. This is BS and im tired of it.
Growler
04-03-11, 11:22 AM
where i grew up we had a neighbor come over and he told us that water runoff from a horse pasture was flooding part of his property with mud and horse waste.
discourse? no
confrontation? no
it was clear that there was a problem and the right thing to do was to address it.
my dad and I got out our work gloves, cranked up the tractor.
the neighbor and his son did the same... and we got out there together and planed that whole pasture out and built a small retaining wall and made it right. problem solved.... now we could get back to exchanging cookies and cakes for Christmas and Thanksgiving etc.
it was damned satisfying. and i just don't see why some folks have such a hard time with things like that.
Goddayum, I wish I coulda been there to swing a pick with you folks. That's the hands-down finest and truest expression of what this country is all about that I've read in a long time.
Mutual problem, mutual solution, mutual effort. This totally made my day, man. Who needs laws when the people involved just do together what they both know to be right?
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