Libya, Arming the Rebels and putting boots on the ground?

[Freiwillige]

I think yes and yes in both cases, In fact I bet its going on right now!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110330/ts_yblog_theenvoy/can-the-libyan-rebels-win

[Skybird]

No, and No.

Just have plenty of CAS overhead and bomb everything that moves or trims its guns from the West to the East - piece by piece, one by one.

The rebels do not need weapons so much, which I also am not willing to give them anyway, for they will not give them back when it is over, and I do not wish these weapons to be pointed at Western people in some time from now on. What they urgently seem to need is training in order to understand how to tactically behave in battle, being less cooperative targets for the enemy, and to develope better fighting plans. Too many of them get injured and killed because they are amateurs, I got the impression. Their enemies are trained professionals, mercenaries and foreign troops that by African standards can be rated as elite units.

[Platapus]

It would be interesting to see how President Obama can get around UNSCR 1970 and 1973 as well as Chapter 40 in the UN charter.

Of course we can do what the US always does and just go unilaterally while claiming, when convenient that we are enforcing the UN mandates; and ignoring them when inconvenient.

[TLAM Strike]

Their enemies are trained professionals, mercenaries and foreign troops that by African standards can be rated as elite units.

By African standards the Nazi camp guards from Hogan's Heroes would be rated as an elite unit...

[Hartmann]

No directly but i´m sure that with one way or another ,weapons will arrive to Libian rebelds. for example using weapons dealers.

And probably delta forces and Cia are now in the terrain marking targets for air attacks.


0:25 and forward

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuQYffys8pg

[Skybird]

By African standards the Nazi camp guards from Hogan's Heroes would be rated as an elite unit...
What's your point? What those Lybian "elite" units or "elite" mercenaries are in comparision to Western military, is not important. They are superior in training to the rebels, and rate as "elite" compared to many otherAfrican military parties - that is the point. On the rebel side, you habe bakers, shoe-makers and school-teachers picking up the fight.

[UnderseaLcpl]

What's your point? What those Lybian "elite" units or "elite" mercenaries are in comparision to Western military, is not important. They are superior in training to the rebels, and rate as "elite" compared to many otherAfrican military parties - that is the point. On the rebel side, you habe bakers, shoe-makers and school-teachers picking up the fight.

Not so much. There is training, and then there is "training". Presumably, the Iraqi Army was "trained", but that didn't stop them from cowering in the face of insurgents. It takes a lot of training or experience to make one person with a gun worth more than one other person with gun, and Qadaffi's troops are not, by that measure, trained.

[Herr-Berbunch]

What's your point? What those Lybian "elite" units or "elite" mercenaries are in comparision to Western military, is not important. They are superior in training to the rebels, and rate as "elite" compared to many otherAfrican military parties - that is the point. On the rebel side, you habe bakers, shoe-makers and school-teachers picking up the fight.

You've got 'trained' soldiers versus determined people. A determined shoe-maker is better than a soldier who knows what he's been asked to do is wrong, or is doubtful in any way.

[The Third Man]

Barack Obama signed a secret order authorising covert US government support for rebel forces seeking to oust Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, according to government officials.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8417399/Libya-Barack-Obama-signed-order-for-CIA-to-help-rebels.html

Isn't that boots, OK maybe Nikes, on the ground? And isn't an attempt to go beyond the UN mandate and remove the Colonel from power?

[Jimbuna]

You've got 'trained' soldiers versus determined people. A determined shoe-maker is better than a soldier who knows what he's been asked to do is wrong, or is doubtful in any way.

Aye that...but the question is...how long will the 'training' last before he comes to his eventual conclusion and how many shoe-makers will perish before reaching said conclusion?

[Oberon]

Oh Christ... http://qpawn.beardedfool.com/forum/images/smilies/facepalm.gif

[TLAM Strike]

What's your point? What those Lybian "elite" units or "elite" mercenaries are in comparision to Western military, is not important. They are superior in training to the rebels, and rate as "elite" compared to many otherAfrican military parties - that is the point. On the rebel side, you habe bakers, shoe-makers and school-teachers picking up the fight.

My point is that any amount of decent training, or advisement by western forces, or a small discrete intervention by crack western spec ops would greatly tip the balance.

[Skybird]

Not so much. There is training, and then there is "training". Presumably, the Iraqi Army was "trained", but that didn't stop them from cowering in the face of insurgents. It takes a lot of training or experience to make one person with a gun worth more than one other person with gun, and Qadaffi's troops are not, by that measure, trained.
:nope: They are much better trained than civilians rotting together on the other side. That is what it is about. Gaddafi also has foreign mercenaries as well as parts of one of the African dictators presiden tial guard fighting for him. Those troops and services loyal to him he made so by having favoured and payed them well in the past 20 years. They also have learned to no longer send tanks after the rebels, but armed poickup trucks - so that they cannot be differenciated from the rebels anymore from Allied pilots.

Most of the rebels are untrained, unexperienced civilians.

[Skybird]

You've got 'trained' soldiers versus determined people. A determined shoe-maker is better than a soldier who knows what he's been asked to do is wrong, or is doubtful in any way.
Mercenaries do not ask for morals, but money. Gaddafi loyal troops were nursed and favouired over the past 30 years. They also tend to not ask too many questions. Especially not in Africa, where there is a different valuing of living and killing anyway, due to the omnipresent violence and barbaric civil wars every couple of years.

Determination does not protect you from being untrained a fighter - thinking so is cynical romantism that does not see the dying by which the noble attitude of being perceived as "determined" is being bought. Modern weapons are of little use for the rebels if they do not know how to use them and to handle them for effect. And their losses would still remain high - too high, as I see it.

In WWII - I summarize it drastiucally here to cut it short - often the Germans found that the highest losses of their troops in battle were suffered by those who had just become soldiers and had a military experience of less than I think 4 weeks or so. The experienced and trained soldiers showed smaller losses. Survival chances of soldiers dramatically increased if they survived just the first couple of weeks.

And is this really any news, is this really a surprise? The newbies die first - it has been like that in so many wars. For that reason they are even orderedf to serve in the first attack wave, as cannon fodder. Overlord being a prime example for that.

[TLAM Strike]

For that reason they are even orderedf to serve in the first attack wave, as cannon fodder. Overlord being a prime example for that.

The Rangers and the Big Red One both landed on Omaha Beach. While the Rangers were new but highly trained the 1st Div saw action in North Africa and Italy (and in Lee Marvin's case WWI), I'm sure there were UK units there that saw action well before D Day.

[The Third Man]

If the only reason to go to war in Libya, is that as Barack Obama said....'the people have lost confidence in Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi' , what keeps the UN from forming an opinion that the people of the United States have lost confidence in Barack Hussein Obama? Which they have. In most cases only 33% supports the man on any given issue..

[Takeda Shingen]

My point is that any amount of decent training, or advisement by western forces, or a small discrete intervention by crack western spec ops would greatly tip the balance.

You mean like it did in Afghanistan? :03:

[TLAM Strike]

You mean like it did in Afghanistan? :03:

Twice... :yep:

[Takeda Shingen]

Twice... :yep:

Just be sure to let us all know when that balance tipping comes. :03:

[TLAM Strike]

Just be sure to let us all know when that balance tipping comes. :03:

Warfare ≠ Nation Building

:smug:

[August]

And is this really any news, is this really a surprise? The newbies die first - it has been like that in so many wars. For that reason they are even orderedf to serve in the first attack wave, as cannon fodder. Overlord being a prime example for that.

Overlord is not a prime example of that.

Not only did veteran units participate in both the seaborne landings and airborne drops, even the green outfits were led by cadres of veteran officers and sergeants.

Besides, even the "newbies" as you call them trained for two whole years just for that invasion. Calling them "cannon fodder" just could not be more wrong.

[Takeda Shingen]

Warfare ≠ Nation Building

:smug:

If we were only at the nation building phase. No, we're still trying to suppress the enemy.

[The Third Man]

One question....why is the US fighting for Europe's oil? 196 cruise missles launched by US forces. Who is going to pay for that?

[Bilge_Rat]

In WWII - I summarize it drastiucally here to cut it short - often the Germans found that the highest losses of their troops in battle were suffered by those who had just become soldiers and had a military experience of less than I think 4 weeks or so. The experienced and trained soldiers showed smaller losses. Survival chances of soldiers dramatically increased if they survived just the first couple of weeks.



Overlord has been dealt with by others, but it is actually a myth that in a military unit the green newbies get killed off first while the veterans survive.

Terry Copp in his book "Cinderella Army" about the Canadian Army in NWE 44-45 studied one offensive in October 1944, drilling down into the service records of each man who died and found they had been with their particular unit for an average of 2 years. This was at a time where half of all Canadian infantry units was made up of replacements who had come in since D-Day.