View Full Version : Where the Bailout Went Wrong
TWO and a half years ago, Congress passed the legislation that bailed out the country’s banks. The government has declared its mission accomplished, calling the program remarkably effective “by any objective measure.” On my last day as the special inspector general of the bailout program, I regret to say that I strongly disagree. The bank bailout, more formally called the Troubled Asset Relief Program, failed to meet some of its most important goals.
From the perspective of the largest financial institutions, the glowing assessment is warranted: billions of dollars in taxpayer money allowed institutions that were on the brink of collapse not only to survive but even to flourish. These banks now enjoy record profits and the seemingly permanent competitive advantage that accompanies being deemed “too big to fail.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/opinion/30barofsky.html
Note: March 29, 2011
Catfish
03-30-11, 01:06 PM
Why your money isn't worth anything, and inflation is a hidden tax on the pubic, first 45 minutes :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
Greetings,
Catfish
mookiemookie
03-30-11, 01:17 PM
Oh but gosh, I was told that wealth redistribution upwards can't happen!
This is the greatest theft in history. See it for what it is or not, it changes nothing. Your government has sold you out to their corporate masters and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
Bakkels
03-30-11, 02:15 PM
Why your money isn't worth anything, and inflation is a hidden tax on the pubic, first 45 minutes :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg
Greetings,
Catfish
What?!?! They're taxing my pubes now???? What has this world come to?
:D Sorry, couldn't resist.
But it's an interesting movie in your link. I've seen it a few years ago. Here and there it get's a little bit too 'new world order conspiracy-ish' for my taste, it DOES bring up some really interesting questions we should ask ourselves more often about how the modern economy works.
mookiemookie
03-30-11, 02:26 PM
What?!?! They're taxing my pubes now???? What has this world come to?
:D Sorry, couldn't resist.
But it's an interesting movie in your link. I've seen it a few years ago. Here and there it get's a little bit too 'new world order conspiracy-ish' for my taste, it DOES bring up some really interesting questions we should ask ourselves more often about how the modern economy works.
It's got some valid points, but also a lot of inaccuracies. Definitely made by someone with an agenda to push.
Platapus
03-30-11, 05:20 PM
. The bank bailout, more formally called the Troubled Asset Relief Program, failed to meet some of its most important goals.
If it failed to meet some of the important goals, then I would say the program was mostly successful. :yeah:
Oh but gosh, I was told that wealth redistribution upwards can't happen!
This is the greatest theft in history. See it for what it is or not, it changes nothing. Your government has sold you out to their corporate masters and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.
Where did the bailout money come from? They borrowed it. Who will pay for the borrowed money? The people who pay disproportionate taxes. I am indeed curious how wealth never owned by the poor can make the rich, rich. The sum total wealth of the bottom tiers isn't enough to make a huge difference. It's not like they used to have it and gave it away.
Not in favor of the bailout, BTW, I'd have let companies fail.
Ducimus
03-30-11, 06:01 PM
I am indeed curious how wealth never owned by the poor can make the rich, rich
I think it's implied. The impression I have is America is supposed to be the land of opportunity, make it or break it is up to you, you had the opportunity either way. However, the impression now is that the rich became super rich by removing those opportunities in the way of automation, outsourcing jobs to foreign shores, domestic outsourcing (hiring illegals), etc etc what have you. Sure they made themselves super rich, but seemingly at everyone else's expense in terms of opportunity.
I think it's implied. The impression I have is America is supposed to be the land of opportunity, make it or break it is up to you, you had the opportunity either way. However, the impression now is that the rich became super rich by removing those opportunities in the way of automation, outsourcing jobs to foreign shores, domestic outsourcing (hiring illegals), etc etc what have you. Sure they made themselves super rich, but seemingly at everyone else's expense in terms of opportunity.
The rich become richer by removing opportunity? Oh, you mean that a loss of opportunity is somehow an accident of the rich becoming rich?
One, that's not redistribution. That means taking something one person has, and giving it to others.
I also don't buy it, anyway.
100 years ago, some robber-baron has a big company, and you invent something in the same field that is the next big thing. Is your opportunity greater or less than someone with a new idea right now? Presumably you think less. There are laws on the books now that are far more restrictive on the big outfit than were around 100 years ago. I think things are not harder now than then.
I think even the basic metric of just relative wealth is only good during limited contemporaneous time intervals, too. Saying that the relative balance of rich and poor is different fails entirely to look at what people actually have. We've all talked about this in other threads. What the average, say, lower middle class family has in 2011 might be less in $ terms relative to the top of the heap, but they have far MORE than a family in the same bracket in 1911. Weight dollars with square footage, mobility, communications, entertainment, etc. Until someone figures out how to value that stuff, I don't think I buy the rich vs poor ratio stuff.
People now complain of high real estate prices making urban areas hard to live in. 100 years ago the lower end people had a simpler solution. They never owned a home in their entire life. We seen the stats in recent, previous years about all time high home ownership... turns out that was a bad idea. My dream might be to own a P-51, but it's a dream, not something that will ever happen. Back in the day the "American Dream" was just that—a dream—for most people.
Anyway, I don't think opportunity has evaporated (ask people what they thought in 1930-something).
gimpy117
03-30-11, 07:01 PM
Where did the bailout money come from? They borrowed it. Who will pay for the borrowed money? The people who pay disproportionate taxes. I am indeed curious how wealth never owned by the poor can make the rich, rich. The sum total wealth of the bottom tiers isn't enough to make a huge difference. It's not like they used to have it and gave it away.
Not in favor of the bailout, BTW, I'd have let companies fail.
except they don't, because they have many deductions, and accounts to hide much of their earnings. there are some very clever accountants out there. If GE can pay NO taxes then im sure some clever accountants are working for their million and billionaire clients as well.
Plus theres the fact that they makes sickening amounts of money..and after taxes the amount taken by uncle sam matter much less than the amount taken from the average joe.
Ducimus
03-30-11, 07:02 PM
Personally, i don't see what the debate is. In my mind, its all as clear as day and as real as the traffic light down the street. Now, i'm not disowning personal responsiblity or accountability, far from it. I am where I am, because i got comfortable and lazy. However, i also recognize we live in a plutocracy, and in what some call a "great recession". There are far fewer opportunites now then there were 10 to 20 years ago.
The cost of living keeps going up, pay stays the same, and a crapton of people are unemployed. Yet this rich elite are making record profits, with pay bonuses in the millions. That too, is plain as day, and as real as the traffic sign down the street. There's no abstract thought to that. Poor get poorer, rich get richer. That's just how it is, and it is what it is, because we have the best government money can buy. I just find it therapeutic to whine about it on a messageboard because i can't elsewhere, and because there is absolutely NOTHING i can do about the situation. So that to me, is all there is to it.
mookiemookie
03-30-11, 07:12 PM
Personally, i don't see what the debate is. In my mind, its all as clear as day and as real as the traffic light down the street. Now, i'm not disowning personal responsiblity or accountability, far from it. I am where I am, because i got comfortable and lazy. However, i also recognize we live in a plutocracy, and in what some call a "great recession". There are far fewer opportunites now then there were 10 to 20 years ago.
The cost of living keeps going up, pay stays the same, and a crapton of people are unemployed. Yet this rich elite are making record profits, with pay bonuses in the millions. That too, is plain as day, and as real as the traffic sign down the street. There's no abstract thought to that. Poor get poorer, rich get richer. That's just how it is, and it is what it is, because we have the best government money can buy. I just find it therapeutic to whine about it on a messageboard because i can't elsewhere. That to me, is all there is to it.
You got it, brother. There are those that realize what's happened, but they know that we have no real power. We can write to our congresscritter and tell them how unfair it is, but they know our protests will be filtered through some unpaid intern and met with a form letter. They face no real repercussions. They keep fellating that corporate pipe and let us believe that we have some sort of say in government.
And they have their true believers who defend the right to screw us over at all turns, saying that they're not really at fault, and that the old American dream of "you can make it if you try" is still alive and well. What are you gonna do, man?
Ducimus
03-30-11, 07:19 PM
What are you gonna do, man?
What i always do. Survive.... as dramatic as that sounds. :O: I Make my ends meet, keep my head above water, live one day at a time, enjoy what i have, take pleasure in the simple things in life, and try not to worry about things i can do nothing about.
Platapus
03-30-11, 07:38 PM
Maybe not as bad as it could be?
http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/30/news/economy/tarp_program/index.htm?hpt=T2
The Treasury Department announced Wednesday that the money it gave to banks during the financial crisis has been paid back, and then some.
The bank bailout -- part of the Troubled Asset Relief Program -- is now $6 billion in the black, a profit that might ultimately rise to $20 billion, according to the Treasury.
And that's nice. But if you look at the whole program, there are still some trouble spots, and not everyone is happy.
...
Interesting article.
gimpy117
03-30-11, 07:49 PM
What i always do. Survive.... as dramatic as that sounds. :O: I Make my ends meet, keep my head above water, live one day at a time, enjoy what i have, take pleasure in the simple things in life, and try not to worry about things i can do nothing about.
Im still worried, being so young and only half way through school. What happens to my generation? Maybe I should just pick out a nice comfy box. Preferably one thats waxed so it will keep out the stream of urine coming from the top percent.
Ducimus
03-30-11, 07:55 PM
Im still worried, being so young and only half way through school. What happens to my generation?
Assuming you get your foot in the door somewhere...soar above them.
Have and show Integrity. Never compromise it, ever. It's the most valuable thing you can have. Own up to your mistakes, and be your worst critic. Show and prove your reliable, Do what you say your going to do, and never ever say "not my job" and never leave something half assed. Do all that, and you should be fine.
Platapus
03-30-11, 07:55 PM
Im still worried, being so young and only half way through school. What happens to my generation?
Your generation will be just fine. Things won't be as bad as you fear, nor as good as you hope.
People have been predicting the downfall of the United States for many years, each one condemning the next generation to utter despair.
And somehow we always survive. We change and we adapt, but we survive. :yep:
Your generation will experience things that my generation could only dream of. And at the same time, you will miss out on experiences my generation holds dearly. That's just life on this wacky rock. :know:
mookiemookie
03-30-11, 08:05 PM
Assuming you get your foot in the door somewhere...soar above them.
Have and show Integrity. Never compromise it, ever. It's the most valuable thing you can have. Own up to your mistakes, and be your worst critic. Show and prove your reliable, Do what you say your going to do, and never ever say "not my job" and never leave something half assed. Do all that, and you should be fine.
Good advice.
gimpy - be principled. Stand up for your beliefs. Act in such a way that no one can indict your character. Do the Marine thing -do the right thing even when no one's looking. Make yourself indisposable. Learn whatever job you get inside and out - be the expert at whatever. Make it so they have to think twice to get rid of you. Go the extra mile. Be a jack of all trades. They can replace one job position, they have trouble replacing two or three - know and do those two or three job descriptions.
Just my $0.02
gimpy117
03-30-11, 08:10 PM
sounds advice guys :up:
Your generation will be just fine. Things won't be as bad as you fear, nor as good as you hope.
People have been predicting the downfall of the United States for many years, each one condemning the next generation to utter despair.
And somehow we always survive. We change and we adapt, but we survive. :yep:
Your generation will experience things that my generation could only dream of. And at the same time, you will miss out on experiences my generation holds dearly. That's just life on this wacky rock. :know:
Even more good advice.
CaptainHaplo
03-30-11, 08:25 PM
I can sum up why the bailouts (bush and obama's) went wrong in 2 words...
"They happened."
Nuff said.
UnderseaLcpl
03-30-11, 08:38 PM
And they have their true believers who defend the right to screw us over at all turns, saying that they're not really at fault, and that the old American dream of "you can make it if you try" is still alive and well. What are you gonna do, man?
I know I'm going to be mocked horribly for this but.... join the Tea Party! Granted, their material results haven't been all that great yet, but their political results over a relatively short span of time can't be argued with, and you'll never take out the government-industrial complex without removing the government part first. Easiest way to do that is to demand government fiscal responsibility, which is exactly what the tea partiers are all about.
What the tea-party movement represents, maligned as it is by the left, is a shift in Republican politics and eventually (I hope) party platform. The Repubs are infamous for spending just as much (and in some cases, more) than the Dems. I think the success of the tea-party movement may be indicative of Americans actually sending a message to Washington more or less successfully, which is better than nothing at all.
More importantly, in a two-party system, if one party definitively adopts a stance, the other party is all but required to adopt the opposite stance to garner the largest possible number of votes. In the event of another tea-party success, that could put the legislature in the hands of the tea-party Republicans and independents.
My main worry about them is that they will lose momentum and stop complaining, or conclude that the effort is hopeless or too much work. If they do that before 2012, we just continue with the same system, so we're screwed. If they do it after 2012, or even 2016, we may well end up with another single-party legislative dynasty, which would eventually be even worse.
Aside from that, there's always the option of supporting a third party with a fiscal-responsibility agenda, like the Libertarians. I'm not saying you need to throw away a vote in a presidential election or a presidential primary. Just get the word out in a local election. Or just cast a vote in one. Nobody votes in those things anyway, so your vote carries more weight, but what really matters is that every Libertarian elected at a local level carries the weight of thousands of district votes (y'know, unless your district has less than thousands of people). Apply pressure from the ground up, rather than the top down.
Or don't. Whatever you do, don't just give up. Every vote of no-confidence in the current government is ammunition to bring about the reform of government, even if all you do is convince one person on one forum. Y'know, as long as you don't convince them to vote for more government to fix the current government.
Ducimus
03-30-11, 08:55 PM
Whatever you do, don't just give up. Every vote of no-confidence in the current government is ammunition to bring about the reform of government,
When our representitives can be bought, be it corporate or special interests, what does it matter? It feels like every jackass that gets elected does the exact same thing. They BS their way into office, and then pander to wherever the money is coming from.
UnderseaLcpl
03-30-11, 09:40 PM
When our representitives can be bought, be it corporate or special interests, what does it matter? It feels like every jackass that gets elected does the exact same thing. They BS their way into office, and then pander to wherever the money is coming from.
You're right about the current situation, but you're missing an important point of my argument, Deuce. There are ways to fight back against government spending. Without the power to spend, the government can't pander to special interests of any kind, no matter who is bought.
If government spending and powers of taxation and borrowing and money-printing are reined-in (as per the tea-party and libertarian agendas), it can't do anything. It won't have the money. You could be EvilCorp Inc. and spend ten-billion to buy a politician, but if that politician can't pass or argue for any legislation because the government has no money to effect it it's a moot point. And like you, nobody is going to buy stuff that doesn't work.
You wouldn't buy a TV if you didn't have an electrical outlet to plug it into, no matter how badly you wanted it. Same concept here. Just take away the government electrical outlet.
And every step in that direction is a valuable one. Some are more valuable than others, but all are valuable. Even if you can convince just one person to fight against government spending, that's a small step forward. On the internet, it may end up being many small steps forward. People talk to people. Everyone who says anything to anyone else has some kind of effect.
Even if you don't push the "tea-party/libertarian" agenda that I'm constantly on about, your dissatisfaction with the government is something that needs to be known. It's not just venting. Others will pick up on it and ask themselves questions about it, maybe even share your dissatisfaction. You may have more influence than you know. But if you just give up or say nothing, you're not helping anything.
Your generation will be just fine. Things won't be as bad as you fear, nor as good as you hope.
That's good advice for any generation.
People have been predicting the downfall of the United States for many years, each one condemning the next generation to utter despair.
And somehow we always survive. We change and we adapt, but we survive.
I fail to see how that is supposed to be inspirational or comforting in the least.
Ducimus
03-30-11, 10:48 PM
Heh....
http://blog.cagle.com/2011/03/tax-reform-close-the-bank-of-america-size-loop-hole/
http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/news/index.cfm?id=67562604-8280-4d56-8af4-a27f59d70de5
Heh....
http://blog.cagle.com/2011/03/tax-reform-close-the-bank-of-america-size-loop-hole/
But many of the companies the report found had paid no tax were likely small businesses that pay other taxes. Generally, many small firms, because they do not have shareholders, are able to shift corporate income to individual income.
"Small businesses that are going to be liable for a lot of income tax are likely to use other tax forms so they only pay individual income taxes," said Eric Toder, a senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center.
Heh indeed.
If it failed to meet some of the important goals, then I would say the program was mostly successful. :yeah: To dream you can always do, :yep:
Ducimus
03-31-11, 03:43 PM
Make yourself indisposable.
We JUST had another round of layoffs today, it i was reminded of THIS specific sentence mookie wrote.
Making yourself indisposable is easier said then done. Though i suppose it depends on who's in charge. A couple years ago we had a change in management, and they've been going at things. To the powers that be, you as an employee represent one or two things.
Functionality or Productivity.
Someone who provides functionality is indisposeable. Someone who provides productivity is replaceable. Needless to say, the management has been doing their utmost so they don't have to rely on any one person for anything. Including me. I WAS indisposeable, but my primary duty has been automated. Now my existance is being carried through on my secondary duty, and i now represent productivity , and am a replaceable widget.
Anyway, i cleaned out my desk 3 months ago. In my mind, it isn't a question of IF, but WHEN. As long as i get a severance, i don't give a ****.
Takeda Shingen
03-31-11, 03:45 PM
I can sum up why the bailouts (bush and obama's) went wrong in 2 words...
"They happened."
Nuff said.
QFT
We JUST had another round of layoffs today, it i was reminded of THIS specific sentence mookie wrote.
Making yourself indisposable is easier said then done. Though i suppose it depends on who's in charge. A couple years ago we had a change in management, and they've been going at things. To the powers that be, you as an employee represent one or two things.
Functionality or Productivity.
Someone who provides functionality is indisposeable. Someone who provides productivity is replaceable. Needless to say, the management has been doing their utmost so they don't have to rely on any one person for anything. Including me. I WAS indisposeable, but my primary duty has been automated. Now my existance is being carried through on my secondary duty, and i now represent productivity , and am a replaceable widget.
Anyway, i cleaned out my desk 3 months ago. In my mind, it isn't a question of IF, but WHEN. As long as i get a severance, i don't give a ****. No distinction is therefore,because you give a....
We (the taxpayers) gave 5+ billion $ to the Bank of Libya...
let's see, Libya murdered 189 Americans on flight 103. That means we paid Libya around 26.5 million dollars to kill each person for us.
That's pretty wrong to me.
We (the taxpayers) gave 5+ billion $ to the Bank of Libya...
let's see, Libya murdered 189 Americans on flight 103. That means we paid Libya around 26.5 million dollars to kill each person for us.
That's pretty wrong to me. The truth will be in the dark!
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