Germany: Angela Merkel 'loses key state election'

[Gerald]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrats have lost the key state of Baden-Wuerttemberg after six decades, preliminary results show.

The results gave the Greens 24.2% and their Social Democrat allies 23.1%, with Mrs Merkel's party on 39% and its Free Democrat (FDP) allies on 5.3%.

Nuclear power, following the accident in Japan, was a key issue.

The vote in the wealthy south-western state was seen as a referendum on Mrs Merkel's rule.

The region, around Stuttgart, has a population of some 11 million and has been ruled by the Christian Democrats since 1953.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12876083

Note: 27 March 2011 Last updated at 21:01 GMT

[Penguin]

http://www.rainer-otte.de/images/Merkel2.jpg

:D:D:D

[Gerald]

Yes, she has grounds for a headache now, while it is too early to draw any conclusion concerning nuclear power and what happened in Japan,naively thinking away from them green

[Jimbuna]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Angela_Merkel,_Karlspreisverleihung_2008_-_1.jpg
Auf Wiedersehen everyone.

[Skybird]

MCAs: Japan has Fukujima 1-6, we have Merkel, Schäuble and Westerwelle. Japan has leaking radioactivity, we have leaking tax-billions. Japan has earthquakes haunting it, we have the Euro haunting us.

What do the people of Japan and Germany have in common? Both get lied to, lied to, lied to. Both will need to live with the costs for decades to come.

[Gerald]

But Germany could recover, as has been done before, if the politicians take their responsibility, which probably does not occur in the normal manner, just like many other countries

[Skybird]

But Germany could recover, as has been done before, if the politicians take their responsibility, which probably does not occur in the normal manner, just like many other countries
You live in a different world than I do, if you mean this serious. Or you simply do not know the numbers and future trends affecting Germany. Also, there will be no new Marshal plan for Germany, payed by others.

By Berlin's Euro-polcies and willingness to pay for all others, they have traded the financial future of Germany away. And the markets already have started to realise that.

[Gerald]

You live in a different world than I do, if you mean this serious. Or you simply do not know the numbers. That I live and do things in a different world there is absolutely no doubt, but when you mention the word "numbers" you refer to money or other things? Otherwise, it may well be said that Germany and Sweden are very common and it can hardly be any news, I visit Germany quite frequently and I have positive elements of the country and it goes back many years,long before the wall collapse

[nikimcbee]

As much as I hate the 2 party system, atleast you know, who is who. Could somebody explain the difference between all of the German parties?:doh:

[Gerald]

You live in a different world than I do, if you mean this serious. Or you simply do not know the numbers and future trends affecting Germany. Also, there will be no new Marshal plan for Germany, payed by others.

By Berlin's Euro-polcies and willingness to pay for all others, they have traded the financial future of Germany away. And the markets already have started to realise that. If you could be permitted a "decent" political harmony in the country, which is not in my eyes really exist, so changes can come about,and Germany do not pay for everyone else, some countries, maybe, but Sweden are pumping a lot, just look at east side

[Skybird]

That I live and do things in a different world there is absolutely no doubt, but when you mention the word "numbers" you refer to money or other things? Otherwise, it may well be said that Germany and Sweden are very common and it can hardly be any news, I visit Germany quite frequently and I have positive elements of the country and it goes back many years,long before the wall collapse

Age structure and demographic trend.

High vulnerability due to extreme dependency on exports.

High risks due to the Euro rescue.

Highly deficitary budgets.

high debts.

Budget deficits and debts growing due to bailing out other Euro-countries.

Self-imploding spiral of interest-service (="spiral of death"). In the long run, this is the most lethal aspect of all.

"Made in Germany" having lost relevance, others have closed the quality gap since long, even often surpassed us. Brain drain, technology transfer.

Suicidal feedback by exaggerated social system due to few and fewer young peopople having to come up for more and more old people (consider demographics mentioned above).

Fact is that first rasting agencies have started to consider to downgrade Germany's credibility. The markets start to realise that Germany allowed to get hopelessly overburdened with bailing out budget offenders now and in the future.

We accepted more responsibilities than even our economy could shoulder. But the distortions started much earlier, decades earlier: the culture od making debts, debts and more debts.The prediction for out future status already was critical before the economic global crisis and the Euro crisis broke out. The Euro - just gave us the rest.

Wait some years, you will see I am right. Markets alrerady have started slightly against Germany, since aroudn one year - they realised that we bit off more thna we cvould chew, that the Euro obligations we accepted will overwhelm us sooner or later, and also that there is prey to make.

Politicians, of course, do not tell you such things. Where Portugal, Japan (I mean the economy and fiances, not the disaster), Greece, the US and England already are today, we will be in future years not too far away.

You comared Germany to Sweden. You better don'T The Swedes have a relatively stable and solid currency, like the Swiss as well, and they have started to move away from their former super-socalistic community utopia as well. Also, the German bureaucracy is extremely unflexible and petrified. The superimposed EU bureaucracy do not especially help in this.

Sweden and Switzerland are in much better positions than Germany, for several reasons. And they would be stupid to join the Eurozone, or submit to Brussel's regime (Switzerland). They have little to gain and much to lose.

[Penguin]

As much as I hate the 2 party system, atleast you know, who is who. Could somebody explain the difference between all of the German parties?:doh:

hardest question on subsim ever! It would be easier to tell you how many rivets the Kriegsmarine used for their ships on full moon nights...
You can't compare it 1:1, as some issues are not really applicable, for example state's rights vs fed rights are a non-issue here, same with gun laws

I try:

CDU : ruling party, has the majority in the parliament and the state chamber (house of reps comparitable)
social free market economy, traditional, conservative, christian values, pro atomic energy (this was an important issue at this election) full of ****

FDP: coalition partner, liberal in the European sense, slightly comparable with the US Libertarian Party
free market, privatisation, corporate friendly, individual rights, pro atomic energy, full of ****

SPD: Social Democrats
social free market economy (a little more tendency towards social than the CDU), pro-union, comparable with the British Labour Party, anti atomic energy, full of ****

Grüne(Greens): main issue on environment, liberal in the US sense towards people's rights, comparible with the US greens, anti atomic energy, full of ****

[Gerald]

Age structure and demographic trend.

High vulnerability due to extreme dependency on exports.

High risks due to the Euro rescue.

Highly deficitary budgets.

high debts.

Budget deficits and debts growing due to bailing out other Euro-countries.

Self-imploding spiral of interest-service (="spiral of death"). In the long run, this is the most lethal aspect of all.

"Made in Germany" having lost relevance, others have closed the quality gap since long, even often surpassed us. Brain drain, technology transfer.

Suicidal feedback by exaggerated social system due to few and fewer young peopople having to come up for more and more old people (consider demographics mentioned above).

Fact is that first rasting agencies have started to consider to downgrade Germany's credibility. The markets start to realise that Germany allowed to get hopelessly overburdened with bailing out budget offenders now and in the future.

We accepted more responsibilities than even our economy could shoulder. But the distortions started much earlier, decades earlier: the culture od making debts, debts and more debts.The prediction for out future status already was critical before the economic global crisis and the Euro crisis broke out. The Euro - just gave us the rest.

Wait some years, you will see I am right. Markets alrerady have started slightly against Germany, since aroudn one year - they realised that we bit off more thna we cvould chew, that the Euro obligations we accepted will overwhelm us sooner or later, and also that there is prey to make.

Politicians, of course, do not tell you such things. Where Portugal, Japan (I mean the economy and fiances, not the disaster), Greece, the US and England already are today, we will be in future years not too far away.

You comared Germany to Sweden. You better don'T The Swedes have a relatively stable and solid currency, like the Swiss as well, and they have started to move away from their former super-socalistic community utopia as well. Also, the German bureaucracy is extremely unflexible and petrified. The superimposed EU bureaucracy do not especially help in this.

Sweden and Switzerland are in much better positions than Germany, for several reasons. And they would be stupid to join the Eurozone, or submit to Brussel's regime (Switzerland). They have little to gain and much to lose. I agree with what you say, and a currency change to leave the SEK to the Euro, is not up to date and has not been so, perhaps a bit at the beginning of the "new" era of the euro, but now ice cold, and their removal from the (S) is no negative it either,my trips to Germany is of an entirely different character, so that I might like to be a shame is that some eateries in Köln serving cold food,;)

[Jimbuna]

Age structure and demographic trend.

High vulnerability due to extreme dependency on exports.

High risks due to the Euro rescue.

Highly deficitary budgets.

high debts.

Budget deficits and debts growing due to bailing out other Euro-countries.

Self-imploding spiral of interest-service (="spiral of death"). In the long run, this is the most lethal aspect of all.

"Made in Germany" having lost relevance, others have closed the quality gap since long, even often surpassed us. Brain drain, technology transfer.

Suicidal feedback by exaggerated social system due to few and fewer young peopople having to come up for more and more old people (consider demographics mentioned above).

Fact is that first rasting agencies have started to consider to downgrade Germany's credibility. The markets start to realise that Germany allowed to get hopelessly overburdened with bailing out budget offenders now and in the future.

We accepted more responsibilities than even our economy could shoulder. But the distortions started much earlier, decades earlier: the culture od making debts, debts and more debts.The prediction for out future status already was critical before the economic global crisis and the Euro crisis broke out. The Euro - just gave us the rest.

Wait some years, you will see I am right. Markets alrerady have started slightly against Germany, since aroudn one year - they realised that we bit off more thna we cvould chew, that the Euro obligations we accepted will overwhelm us sooner or later, and also that there is prey to make.

Politicians, of course, do not tell you such things. Where Portugal, Japan (I mean the economy and fiances, not the disaster), Greece, the US and England already are today, we will be in future years not too far away.

You comared Germany to Sweden. You better don'T The Swedes have a relatively stable and solid currency, like the Swiss as well, and they have started to move away from their former super-socalistic community utopia as well. Also, the German bureaucracy is extremely unflexible and petrified. The superimposed EU bureaucracy do not especially help in this.

Sweden and Switzerland are in much better positions than Germany, for several reasons. And they would be stupid to join the Eurozone, or submit to Brussel's regime (Switzerland). They have little to gain and much to lose.

Lol....stop feeding the you know what :DL

[Gerald]

Lol....stop feeding the you know what :DL behave yourself now :O:

[nikimcbee]

Lol....stop feeding the you know what :DL

Russland uber alles!:woot:

[Jimbuna]

Russland uber alles!:woot:

Never mind the quality...feel the width.

[Gammelpreusse]

As much as I hate the 2 party system, atleast you know, who is who. Could somebody explain the difference between all of the German parties?:doh:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Germany#Parties_repre sented_in_the_Bundestag_or_the_EP

here you have the major ones

[Gerald]

Never mind the quality...feel the width. :haha:

[Skybird]

Unfortunately only for those understanding German a bit: a superb essay about the factitiousness of the Greens, and the inevitable schizophrenia of a wealthy society that wants to be "green". Usually I do not read the Sueddeutsche Zeitung, it is one of the most manipulative - often leftist and politically correct - national newsppapers there are in Germany, but this essay I got a link for by a friend. And it is spot on, and rips a collective mask off our society.

The hour of the hypocrites (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/2.220/zum-siegeszug-der-gruenen-die-stunde-der-heuchler-1.1078968)

[Gerald]

They "green" levy victory because of a very serious nuclear accident, which they soon make it impossible to rely on what other countries and what happens there, very naively thought

[Skybird]

While Fukujima helped them, it is not the basic casue for their wins (tripling in one state, there were two election on sunday). The greens are in a long trend upwards over here. Some even see them having overtaken the SPD in meaning of being the traditional prime rival of the conservatives.

[Gerald]

While Fukujima helped them, it is not the basic casue for their wins (tripling in one state, there were two election on sunday). The greens are in a long trend upwards over here. Some even see them having overtaken the SPD in meaning of being the traditional prime rival of the conservatives. So what about the overall outcome, do you think :hmmm:

[Gammelpreusse]

So what about the overall outcome, do you think :hmmm:


A couple years of green supremacy, then when everything green is set in motion, other topics will dominate and the greens will be back to opposition or junior partner. Green is a fashion right now due to Fukushima, rising oil prices and the eternal question of energy dependency.

However, even if only a fashion, major reasons why I am personally all for green tech are:

a) Uranium may have very much reached it's peak as well, just like oil, and if not as of yet, then probably very soon, so we just replace one liability with another. Plutonium, imho, poses an even greater risk and should not even be considered due to its highly poisonous nature.
b) Nuclear power is highly expensive and highly subsidized as a result of that (just imagine that money would flow into green tech instead)
c) Those states in Germany that more then any other rely on nuclear technology, the southern states, are not willing to have their waste disposed in their regions. The whole question of nuclear waste storage is not answered as of yet and probably won't in the near future. So the obvious benefits in CO reduction are more then offset by highly dangerous waste that will stay here for thousands of years. Not a single argument so far pro nuclear power has yet managed to offset that.
d) Pressure for innovation usually leads to innovation, that is true for green tech as well.
e) It will finally solve an issue that has litereally ripped german society apart since Chernobyl.

So in principle, the greens have a chance to get some very fundamental changes going here, which should lead Germany to some very nifty results, most important energy dependency and a break up the centralized energy supply dictated by only 4 large companies who more then know how to benefit from their current monopolies. But back to energy dependancy, that one alone would solve a huge strategic question, defining world politics and what role Germany will play in it in the future (key phrase here to consider: no blood for oil)

However, for that the greens have to clear up some of their own issues.

Notably: they will have to get some of their local groups into line that are actively trying to prevent the building of the power lines connecting the north and south of Germany to deliver the green electricity to those regions that require it (and that will be have to be supplemented by a European power grid doing the same for all of Europe, check out the desertec initiative on google and how that one may also have the added benefit to get some northern African nations enough perspective to enable stable and economical successful governments, a prerequisite for democracy.

They also will have to invest massively into storage technology, a field that is underdeveloped so far.

All in all this change will cost Germany huge amounts of money, so short term is not very viable. But the long term benefits should massively out weight these investments now, should create lots of jobs and give Germany something of a national project, our own Apollo program, so to say. I personally am perfectly willing to pay higher energy costs along the transformation period to make this possible.

[Skybird]

So what about the overall outcome, do you think :hmmm:
Depends on the region and state we are talking about. Like the German essay I linked already said, the Green are strong in two of the wealthiest federal states in Germany, their clients represent peop,e of good education and with money to spend in their household, not really social low class. And these people find it "chic" tgo be green, while not realising that their green lifestyle may be anything but green indeed. Amongst these clients of theirs, the high for the Greens is not a voigue that will disappear in some years, but it will stay - because these clients can afford to live in this self-contradicxtion of voting green, being en vogue when voting green - but not really living any green at all. Their social background is such that they will be less effewcted from future chnages andevelopements and thus they will make up their minds less than people who are more directly effected - at least feel to be so - from such future changes or political develeopments and trends. The higher the income, the less it is a one day trend to votre green. The lower the income of a social group, the higher the chance that more of these people will change their voting habits according to daily forecasts.

However, Germany is set to get its first Green Ministerpräsident of a federal state, in coalition with the SPD.