View Full Version : Should men in uniform be forced to shave?
A rabbi is suing the US Army for refusing to let him serve unless he removes his beard. The US military, as well as many police forces across America, require recruits to be clean shaven. But what is wrong with sporting a beard in the line of duty?
Chin straps, goatees, stubble, soul patches, mutton chops or just the old-fashioned full version.
There are many ways to grow a beard, but if you're serving in the US military, getting creative with your chin furniture is not an option.
The different branches of the US insist that recruits are clean shaven. Those later in their career are permitted to go as far as growing a moustache. But even that facial freedom comes with caveats.
"Moustaches are allowed, but hair may not extend beyond the edges of the lips, nor may it extend below the top of the upper lip," says a US Army spokesman.
"Sideburns may not grow below a level even with the bottom of the ear canal."
As for beards, well, they're banned.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12740975
Note: 23 March 2011 Last updated at 13:01 GMT
Freiwillige
03-24-11, 06:04 PM
A Rabbi is suing.:hmmm:
Why does a Rabbi want to join the army? Isn't Rabbi a career in itself?
Nope, just a little hair. Besides, if someones religion requires them to wear a beard its kinda stupid to forbid them to risk their lives for your country.
Also, doesn't that article state that the beards are helping to gain respect? Seems like a diplomatic advantage that would be wrong to ban.
In closing, Beards are manly, stop forcing our soldiers to look like pussies. :O:
Tribesman
03-24-11, 06:10 PM
Why does a Rabbi want to join the army? Isn't Rabbi a career in itself?
Isn't a priest a career in itself , why would a priest want to join the Chaplian Corps?
Hold on , a priest wants to know if you still get altar boys in the chaplain corps, a job has to have the perks
Neptunus Rex
03-24-11, 06:12 PM
Let him keep the beard. When he don's that gas mask for the first time in the presense of CS dust/gas, he'll then understand why.:yeah:
Platapus
03-24-11, 06:13 PM
Yes, for the sake of uniformity, I do believe that all men should shave in the military. There are also safety concerns (although I don't think Chaplain would be a concern)
Besides, if you absolutely can't follow your religion without special hair/markings/clothing/jewelry, I have concerns about the religion.
One should be able to be faithful in the heart/soul regardless of special hair/markings/clothing/jewelry.
Being in the military is a service profession. You are in the service of the country. We have rules to our game, you have rules in your game.
If you don't want to play by our rules, don't play on our team.
It's still a volunteer force.
Yes soldiers should be clean shaven. Their hair should be cut short too. There are safety equipment and field hygiene considerations but mainly it's a uniformity thing. IMO facial hair and other fashion affectations have no place in the regimentation of military service.
Put him into a gas chamber, give him a gasmask and if he manages to get it airtight despite the beard, then let him serve. :D
It's still a volunteer force.
What if the draft is instituted, would I be able to get out of service by growing a beard and refusing to cut it off? Or will they tie me down and forcefully shave me everytime my facial hair gets too long? :rotfl2:
Tribesman
03-24-11, 06:19 PM
Put him into a gas chamber
Imagine if that was taken out of context
Imagine if that was taken out of context
http://schneide.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/onoz-omg.gif
:03:
Aramike
03-24-11, 06:24 PM
Why does it seem everyone wants to change the military to fit their tastes, these days?
Look people - if you want to join an organization, follow its rules. If you're unwilling to do so ... you guessed it, don't join.
Platapus
03-24-11, 06:29 PM
What if the draft is instituted, would I be able to get out of service by growing a beard and refusing to cut it off? Or will they tie me down and forcefully shave me everytime my facial hair gets too long? :rotfl2:
No, they would use a little thing called "collective punishment". It is an awesome way to manipulate a group of people to force adherence to standards
The DI punishes everyone else because you won't shave.
The problem will be resolved soon. :yep:
Remember Full Metal Jacket?
WARNING ADULT LANGUAGE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NP8y63Ms4o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCNqKrX1sx8
It is called providing the proper motivation.
Skybird
03-24-11, 06:33 PM
Why uniformity in the military? Why not let everybody wear what he wants, and for identification purposes, a golden neclace with an idol, having engraved the national flag into it - that should be enough.
Multicultural diversity! It serves the military cause to approach military task in many different ways and ethnic habits!
Russian orthodox priests into the army, yeah! They don't wash themselves and shall not be touched by anybody! Let's have a stynker brigade! Other armies' enemies worry about running out of ammo - our enemies worry about running out of soap! It's about religion and avoiding to be perceived as discriminating religious groups - so no dirty jokes, please! Religion is a very serious issue.
krashkart
03-24-11, 06:35 PM
Soldiers look more professional without facial hair. That and everything pointed out by Platapus and August (EDIT: and Aramike), especially uniformity. The idea is to get multiple individuals functioning together as a whole, and stripping the hair away helps that indoctrination along. So if the man wants to serve he'll just have to suck it up like everyone else and shave. If he won't do that then he might not be a good fit for the military. It's only temporary; he can grow it back after he's done serving. :yep:
GoldenRivet
03-24-11, 06:37 PM
My opinion:
The following should be allowed to have beards:
Any member of a special forces unit
Anyone serving in the Navy in a non-flying role
Anyone serving in any branch of service if religious reasons are given provided the individual is involved with a chaplain position
Ducimus
03-24-11, 06:57 PM
Let him keep the beard. When he don's that gas mask for the first time in the presense of CS dust/gas, he'll then understand why.:yeah:
Buhahahhah I like the way you think. :har:
Although, they'd make him take the mask off anyway. At least they still did when i went though. That's how i knew that mask REALLY worked! :O:
As an aside I made the mistake of shaving that morning before i left the barracks. (they even told us NOT to shave that morning, but i forgot). Few things can burn your fugly mug like CS/CN seeping into those freshly opened skin pores!
Freiwillige
03-24-11, 07:06 PM
Imagine if that was taken out of context
Your rapier whit strikes again!:O:
I think they should have to do whatever they are told to do. If that means no beard, so be it.
Platapus
03-24-11, 07:30 PM
Buhahahhah
As an aside I made the mistake of shaving that morning before i left the barracks. (they even told us NOT to shave that morning, but i forgot). Few things can burn your fugly mug like CS/CN seeping into those freshly opened skin pores!
As an aside to your aside, When I went through chem school at Redstone, they used chlorine gas. My buddy and I were the first through the chamber. Because we were the first, we were told to hang out by the exit and assist the other students coming out so they don't trip.
The problem was that we were unmasked. By standing next to the exit, every time the door opened, we got hit with chlorine gas. We ended up being the ones needing help. :har: I seldom puked so badly.
Ah the good ole days in the military, they sure sucked. :D
What if the draft is instituted, would I be able to get out of service by growing a beard and refusing to cut it off? Or will they tie me down and forcefully shave me everytime my facial hair gets too long? :rotfl2:
Well no, they'd just put you in a military prison for the duration of your service, maybe longer, then eventually toss you out with a dishonorable discharge. Don't confuse the way they treat volunteer non conformists with the way they'll treat draftees.
Ducimus
03-24-11, 07:54 PM
Ah the good ole days in the military, they sure sucked. :D
And yet, i'll wager, you remember them fondly! :O:
Torplexed
03-24-11, 08:54 PM
Yes soldiers should be clean shaven. Their hair should be cut short too. There are safety equipment and field hygiene considerations but mainly it's a uniformity thing. IMO facial hair and other fashion affectations have no place in the regimentation of military service.
http://pyxis.homestead.com/Grant.jpg
frau kaleun
03-24-11, 09:27 PM
Personally I think they should all have scruffy three-day beards. :yep: :yeah:
In all seriousness, I lean towards GR's exceptions posted above, other than that, I can see the point of "uniformity" for both safety/hygiene reasons and the psychological effect it probably has.
the_tyrant
03-24-11, 09:40 PM
Now, it doesn't take a political scientist to see that our Cold War with the Russians isn't ideological - it's based upon fear. Fear of not having enough. But if we make resources infinite... ah... we make war obsolete. I would hope the other Watchmen understand that. Wherever they may be. Thanks for your time.
-The cause of all war
There is a fear that there is not enough manliness to go around
that if one man gets awesome facial hair, it "sucks" the manliness away from other troops!
http://pyxis.homestead.com/Grant.jpg
Ah the US Civil war, where more soldiers died because of disease caused by bad sanitation and hygiene than were killed in combat.
Not exactly a great argument for bringing back beards and long hair I think!... :DL
Ducimus
03-24-11, 10:28 PM
You know what......
When you sign that mother loving contract. You become government property. You do what your told, when your told, and how your told to do it. (so long as its a lawful order) When your contract is up, your free and clear to not shave as much as you damn well please. Just like every other guy who ever wore a uniform, for generations now.
On that note, i shave maybe once a week. Once it starts pulling at my face, time to cut that fur off my fugly mug. :haha:
TLAM Strike
03-24-11, 10:37 PM
Anyone serving in the Navy in a non-flying role
What if they have to put on an EAB? :hmmm:
UnderseaLcpl
03-24-11, 11:00 PM
It's an all-volunteer force, except when it isn't. Don't like the regs? Then get lost. Nobody has the "right" to serve in the US military, only the opportunity. As such, your "rights" in the military are what the military says they are.
Failing to shave regularly and maintain a decent haircut is acceptable in certain field conditions, like when you have no razors, or when you're in some pansy branch:O:. Aside from that, you maintain proper grooming standards at all times. If this particular rabbi were in my squad, I'd.....well....I don't know, but it would it would be a very fitting punishment with a touch of irony that either fell within the bounds of hazing regs or left no traceable evidence.
While we're on the subject, I also think that women in uniform should be forced to shave, nay, get a bikini wax. For hygienic reasons only, of course.
Ducimus
03-24-11, 11:10 PM
Failing to shave regularly and maintain a decent haircut is acceptable in certain field conditions, like when you have no razors, or when you're in some pansy branch:O:. .
You must have known i would have to respond (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGWZ1slCRhU) with something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iU59A9_TcU) to that, didn't ya? :O:
Slyguy3129
03-24-11, 11:12 PM
Well for one it's all about looking Uniform and as one.
Two have you ever been to the gas chamber? Riot control gas is terrible and believe me the second that rabbi steps into the chamber with a beard and his mop gear doest seal, he'll be wishing dearly that he has shaved.
Because if that last fact he won't win in court.
Well no, they'd just put you in a military prison for the duration of your service, maybe longer, then eventually toss you out with a dishonorable discharge. Don't confuse the way they treat volunteer non conformists with the way they'll treat draftees.
What if every single draftee grows a beard? Throw them all in prison?
Seems pretty retarded to throw a perfectly good soldier into prison because of a bit of facial hair, what if manpower is low? At what point do you start risking losing the war because of facial hair? :O:
This is just What-ifs scenarios running through my head, honestly. Obviously if there is a draft going on then there is manpower needed and the war has a chance of being lost.
UnderseaLcpl
03-24-11, 11:47 PM
You must have known i would have to respond (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGWZ1slCRhU) with something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iU59A9_TcU) to that, didn't ya? :O:
Making fun of other services is just as integral to Marine Corps doctrine as proper maintenance of facial hair is. It's like trolling, but a doctrine. Your posted links, while pretty cool, do not change this fact.
Admittedly, I'm actually in violation of that doctrine right now for not mercilessly and baselessly ridiculing you for being a homosexual. It's nothing personal, you understand. Actually, in the absence of personnel from other services, the doctrine changes to ridiculing members of other USMC units for being homosexuals, or failing that, members of one's own unit.
However, this is a public forum and doctrine dictates that I not represent the Marine Corps poorly, so you will not have to address the insinuation that the entire 823rd Airborne is of questionable sexual preference.:D
GoldenRivet
03-25-11, 02:25 AM
What if they have to put on an EAB? :hmmm:
I meant to mention that, but I forgot to add the modifier "all beards while at sea should remain trimmed to a "one guard".
That did cross my mind.
I have used several types of masks and PBEs etc and my closely trimmed beard was never a problem with such devices
What if every single draftee grows a beard? Throw them all in prison?
Seems pretty retarded to throw a perfectly good soldier into prison because of a bit of facial hair, what if manpower is low? At what point do you start risking losing the war because of facial hair? :O:
Well I would say that a soldier who cares that much about his precious beard is not a perfectly good soldier but rather a prima-donna that is likely to throw a similar hissy fit every time a personally disagreeable regulation is applied to him.
He'd be bad news for any military unit and I for one certainly wouldn't want him in the foxhole next to me.
kiwi_2005
03-25-11, 08:28 AM
I like beards Ive always wanted to grow one of those ZZ top beards but I can never get pass the 3rd week of growing one, face becomes very ichy that I end up shaving it off. I cant handle it :damn: :) Maybe when Im an old man and have no feeling in my face then I'll grow myself a ZZ top one. :yep:
I personally think that you have an obligation to follow the rules, if you have been contracted or agreed to voluntarily
Tribesman
03-25-11, 08:37 AM
Because if that last fact he won't win in court.
Yet according to the lawyer 3 people have been allowed in the past 2 years and the lawyer has been fighting and winning these beardy cases over several decades.
Rockstar
03-25-11, 08:37 AM
The military CAN NOT make you do anything you don't want to do!
But they can make you wish you had. So do me a favor and say hello to my cousin Bubba for me.
AVGWarhawk
03-25-11, 08:53 AM
Why does it seem everyone wants to change the military to fit their tastes, these days?
Look people - if you want to join an organization, follow its rules. If you're unwilling to do so ... you guessed it, don't join.
I go with this sentiment as well.
Weiss Pinguin
03-25-11, 10:10 AM
I wonder what the IDF's rules are on this :hmmm: I haven't seen many pictures of bushy-bearded Israeli soldiers...
AVGWarhawk
03-25-11, 10:13 AM
http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Army-Chaplain-Jacob-Goldstein.jpg
Wreford-Brown
03-25-11, 10:31 AM
My opinion:
The following should be allowed to have beards:
Any member of a special forces unit
Anyone serving in the Navy in a non-flying role
Anyone serving in any branch of service if religious reasons are given provided the individual is involved with a chaplain position
British Special Forces shave unless they are working in an environment where they are not meant to stand out from the crowd.
The Royal Navy allows all of it's members to grow a beard as long as it is kept tidy.
Chaplains tend to do their own thing anyway (despite being non-combatants I know of a few who are armed 'to protect their flock'), but if the rules state that you need to shave then you should shave. If you want to serve your country and keep your beard then join another service like the Navy!
The sky pilot on the left looks like he's sporting a US Army 18th Airborne Corps combat patch.
http://i.imgur.com/LbJVw.jpg
Penguin
03-25-11, 11:58 AM
I fail to see a connection between facial hair and professionalism, yet understand the safety argument.
The pressure for uniformity and conformity was one of the main reasons why I didn't join the forces - but that's my personal choice. The guy also knew the politics of the military.
Multicultural diversity! It serves the military cause to approach military task in many different ways and ethnic habits!
That's why every single military forces of the world are only made up from racial and cultural homogenous people.... :rotfl2:
I wonder what the IDF's rules are on this :hmmm: I haven't seen many pictures of bushy-bearded Israeli soldiers...
You need to be shave clean or have grown a beard but lets say that representative look is the weakest side of IDF.
Idf don't have flashy badges and nice uniforms and too much discipline about smart look parading and other military bull.
I guess because of its relatively short tradition.
TLAM Strike
03-25-11, 12:13 PM
That's why every single military forces of the world are only made up from racial and cultural homogenous people.... :rotfl2:
...well there was one of note... :O:
Penguin
03-25-11, 12:26 PM
...well there was one of note... :O:
are you talking about the Blue Division, the Turkmuselmanische Division, the Skanderbeg Division or the Indian Legion? ;)
Hell, we even had (unshaved) polar bears on our side: :D
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1935/1297431224345.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/LbJVw.jpg
That guy would look much more badass with a beard, right now he looks like a pansy.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6109/51803378forces.jpg
Now that guy.... you'd surrender faster then the French if you saw him marching towards your country. :O:
That guy would look much more badass with a beard, right now he looks like a pansy.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6109/51803378forces.jpg
Now that guy.... you'd surrender faster then the French if you saw him marching towards your country. :O: Maybe in HIS dream, :cool:
frau kaleun
03-25-11, 01:01 PM
I don't know about the rest of you, but I can totally see myself surrendering to Dude #1.
Dude #2 - not so much.
:D
krashkart
03-25-11, 01:38 PM
That guy would look much more badass with a beard, right now he looks like a pansy.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6109/51803378forces.jpg
Now that guy.... you'd surrender faster then the French if you saw him marching towards your country. :O:
Having a beard is like wearing machineguns on your face! And that dude is already loaded for bear. :rock:
Slyguy3129
03-25-11, 01:39 PM
Well I would say that a soldier who cares that much about his precious beard is not a perfectly good soldier but rather a prima-donna that is likely to throw a similar hissy fit every time a personally disagreeable regulation is applied to him.
He'd be bad news for any military unit and I for one certainly wouldn't want him in the foxhole next to me.
That is possibly the best way to sum up this whole argument right there.
I always worked towards the thought of, its not about me, its about the guy next to me. Most of the men and women I worked with tended to agree with that idea.
I always found the idea of getting shot at personally disagreeable, but I worked through it. If you can't get past the shaving part, I don't think you fit the standard.
Nothing is funny to me than the jokes military personnel tell about each other.
How many CSMs does it take it change a light bulb?
Three, One to do it, one to tell you how it used to be, and another to tell you how it is.:rotfl2::rotfl2: Told to me by my old CSM.
Ducimus
03-25-11, 05:50 PM
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6109/51803378forces.jpg
I don't know about the rest of you, but I can totally see myself surrendering to Dude #1.
Dude #2 - not so much.
:D
http://www.virginmedia.com/images/zz-top-431x300.jpg
Gimme all your lovin', all your hugs and kisses too,
Gimme all your lovin', don't let up until we're through, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi_ser2_Xm4)
How many CSMs does it take it change a light bulb?
Trick question. No CSM alive or dead ever changed a light bulb his self, that's what Privates are for! :DL
Platapus
03-25-11, 06:38 PM
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6109/51803378forces.jpg
Now that guy.... you'd surrender faster then the French if you saw him marching towards your country. :O:
He looks out of place without a single wide trailer to guard.
Remind me of him who carried out an armed robbery a few days ago :stare:
Slyguy3129
03-25-11, 07:58 PM
Trick question. No CSM alive or dead ever changed a light bulb his self, that's what Privates are for! :DL
:har: Truer words have not been spoken.
For the rabbi I suggest a SF branch. If I recall from my days we had a band of guys that were encouraged to grow beards to blend in, I just don't recall which ones. Rangers? Maybe Seal? Don't know bout the Marines as they are all about appearance. Heck they teach girls how to apply makeup without a mirror!
Godwins law in five...four...three...two...one...
Gas masks are one of the primary reasons that this gentleman changed his facial hair from it's original Prussian style to something a bit more...historically recognisable:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00634/news-graphics-2007-_634924a.jpg
Although it did sod all to save him from being busted up by a British mustard gas attack in 1918.
Now that I've given this thread its official Godwins law post, I shall agree with the others in this thread in that facial hair in the military should be kept to the minimum. Short clipped mustaches at the most, primarily because of the need for gas masks. :yep:
TLAM Strike
03-25-11, 09:34 PM
Godwins law in five...four...three...two...one...
Gas masks are one of the primary reasons that this gentleman changed his facial hair from it's original Prussian style to something a bit more...historically recognisable:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00634/news-graphics-2007-_634924a.jpg
Although it did sod all to save him from being busted up by a British mustard gas attack in 1918.
Now that I've given this thread its official Godwins law post, I shall agree with the others in this thread in that facial hair in the military should be kept to the minimum. Short clipped mustaches at the most, primarily because of the need for gas masks. :yep:
The loss of awesome Prussian facial hair marked the end of the Germany as a successful military power.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6371/wilhelm1.jpg
Thats a beard that makes Frenchmen wet their pants... :O:
http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsG/6956-21900.gif
"...and a bayonet, sir...with some guts behind it." :yep:
Bubblehead Nuke
03-25-11, 10:24 PM
A beard preventing you from using a gas mask? BS. Underway on a particular trip we grew beards becuase we could not run the rainmaker due to operational constraints. We had to save water and that meant minimal showers and no shaving.
The question came up about masks and beards so I pulled out a EAB from a DC locker and slapped it on sans plugging it onto the air manifold. I then exhaled and procedded to 'suck rubber'. Believe me, there was NO leakage from around the mask. It was airtight and the faceplate stayed plastered up against my face for over a minute.
A dozen of us did it in front of the eng to prove the point.
No shaving was done till we got off station.
krashkart
03-25-11, 10:38 PM
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6109/51803378forces.jpg
He looks out of place without a single wide trailer to guard.
Hey now! :stare: Some of us rednecks might be o-ffended by that remark. :O:
A beard preventing you from using a gas mask? BS. Underway on a particular trip we grew beards becuase we could not run the rainmaker due to operational constraints. We had to save water and that meant minimal showers and no shaving.
The question came up about masks and beards so I pulled out a EAB from a DC locker and slapped it on sans plugging it onto the air manifold. I then exhaled and procedded to 'suck rubber'. Believe me, there was NO leakage from around the mask. It was airtight and the faceplate stayed plastered up against my face for over a minute.
A dozen of us did it in front of the eng to prove the point.
No shaving was done till we got off station. August made a statement in post #7, which I think are fundamental reasons why it is important to be "clean"
krashkart
03-25-11, 11:14 PM
Show of hands:
How many people on this forum have had to sacrifice their vanity and/or beliefs for the greater good? Doesn't matter if it was for military, for job, for church, for family, and so on. We've all been there many times. *raises hand*
TLAM Strike
03-25-11, 11:16 PM
Hey now! :stare: Some of us rednecks might be o-ffended by that remark. :O:
Damn right... some of us have a double wide! ;)
krashkart
03-25-11, 11:18 PM
Damn right... some of us have a double wide! ;)
Now that's livin', brother. :up:
Damn right... some of us have a double wide! ;) Yes, some "have" the ability :O:
HunterICX
03-26-11, 06:20 AM
The most awesome French General you'll ever see :cool:
Entienne de Villaret
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2529/401pxc389tiennedevillar.jpg
HunterICX
The most awesome French General you'll ever see :cool:
Entienne de Villaret
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/2529/401pxc389tiennedevillar.jpg
HunterICX I saw that he was born in 1854 in google, a long track record, he really, so no shaving was not current at the time :yeah:
Show of hands:
How many people on this forum have had to sacrifice their vanity and/or beliefs for the greater good? Doesn't matter if it was for military, for job, for church, for family, and so on. We've all been there many times. *raises hand*
Dunno about beliefs but vanity, sure. As a matter of fact giving up ones vanity is no sacrifice in the long run. You come out a better person for it.
Slyguy3129
03-26-11, 11:35 AM
A beard preventing you from using a gas mask? BS. Underway on a particular trip we grew beards becuase we could not run the rainmaker due to operational constraints. We had to save water and that meant minimal showers and no shaving.
The question came up about masks and beards so I pulled out a EAB from a DC locker and slapped it on sans plugging it onto the air manifold. I then exhaled and procedded to 'suck rubber'. Believe me, there was NO leakage from around the mask. It was airtight and the faceplate stayed plastered up against my face for over a minute.
A dozen of us did it in front of the eng to prove the point.
No shaving was done till we got off station.
Alright you try having a full grown beard in MOP3 and see if it seals right. Last I checked everyone's facial hair grows differently. Mine is very very think along my neck line, so I know I can safely say that yes my MOP3 would not seal properly not to mention the agent I am trying to protect myself from would then somehow make its way into my beard, and that's a hell I don't want to deal with. :har:
*Hand Raised* I.......I liked my hair.........I am told it is the best thing about me.......and.....and......mean ol'e exclusive Uncle Sam made me........CUT IT!!!:wah::har: On a serious note I definitely looked like a damn alien (from space) with a shaved head. I was so glad to get to the point where I could have a bit of hair covering my head.
VonHesse
03-26-11, 11:54 AM
Alright you try having a full grown beard in MOP3 and see if it seals right. Last I checked everyone's facial hair grows differently. Mine is very very think along my neck line, so I know I can safely say that yes my MOP3 would not seal properly not to mention the agent I am trying to protect myself from would then somehow make its way into my beard, and that's a hell I don't want to deal with. :har:
*Hand Raised* I.......I liked my hair.........I am told it is the best thing about me.......and.....and......mean ol'e exclusive Uncle Sam made me........CUT IT!!!:wah::har: On a serious note I definitely looked like a damn alien (from space) with a shaved head. I was so glad to get to the point where I could have a bit of hair covering my head.
I believe you mean MOPP4. Mission Oriented Protective Posture level 3 requires that all protective gear (NBC suit, gloves, and overboots) be worn with the exception of the gas mask. The gas mask is kept on the body and readily accessible, but remains in its protective case untill MOPP4. Kinda hard to get a good seal on a gas mask that is strapped to your hip.
Don't mind me, just picking nits here.
Slyguy3129
03-26-11, 11:58 AM
Yes I meant MOP4, thank you for the correction. Its been a while. And I honestly believe I've been hit in the head a few to many times.:har:
Heck that might be why everyone else had an easier time of it than me.
Show of hands:
How many people on this forum have had to sacrifice their vanity and/or beliefs for the greater good? Doesn't matter if it was for military, for job, for church, for family, and so on. We've all been there many times. *raises hand*
I don't think I would sacrifice anything for any of those. Family? Pfft my blood family isn't allowed to tell me how to look and believe. I wouldn't even sacrifice much for the Gods, I believe in them I do not worship them.
I wouldn't ever join the military either since I'm not loyal to any country so not sacrificing a thing for that.
Job? Eh they can't make me sacrifice my beliefs and they'd have to pay me a lot of money to make me change my looks into something I'm not comfortable with.
Slyguy3129
03-26-11, 12:12 PM
And that's your right to choose. Thankfully we have others that are willing to take up the helm to defend what you have and what you believe.
I believe you mean MOPP4. Mission Oriented Protective Posture level 3 requires that all protective gear (NBC suit, gloves, and overboots) be worn with the exception of the gas mask. The gas mask is kept on the body and readily accessible, but remains in its protective case untill MOPP4. Kinda hard to get a good seal on a gas mask that is strapped to your hip.
Don't mind me, just picking nits here.
The only thing worse than mopp3 is mopp4. Having spent my time in both postures I couldn't imagine doing it with a full beard and long hair even if I could achieve, and maintain, a good seal. Besides the stuff a soldier might have to wear a gas mask against is a heckuva lot more deadly than what a swabbie would wear a mask for.
As for the FOG pics with their fancy facial hair, one must remember that a certain amount of flamboyance is a good thing in a high ranking leader. Note the high ranking part. Low ranking leaders ought to look and dress exactly the same as their troops so as not to make themselves a sniper target.
Another thing to remember. That getup the French general is wearing requires at least a room with a bath and at least one Batman to achieve. Unless we intend to start issuing privates and corporals those kind of field accommodations it's just not practical.
Slyguy3129
03-26-11, 12:21 PM
I think the worst training we ever went through was when we PTd in MOP gear.
I was really appreciative of the fact we have the little straw in the mask so that we could still drink from our canteens. Before we had training in it, I always wondered why they had that nozzle with the hole in it.
TLAM Strike
03-26-11, 12:38 PM
As for the FOG pics with their fancy facial hair, one must remember that a certain amount of flamboyance is a good thing in a high ranking leader. Note the high ranking part. Low ranking leaders ought to look and dress exactly the same as their troops so as not to make themselves a sniper target.
Then again there is something to be said for the higher ranks dressing like the common troopers.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/641/bradleyomar2.jpg
Which one of these men does history not remember as a SOB or a A Hole? yea its the commander dressed like a common soldier.
Wreford-Brown
03-26-11, 02:39 PM
British CBRN gear is less forgiving and getting a full seal in anything more than a couple of days growth is almost impossible. I was away once when there was a credible threat from legacy 120mm mustard gas shells and the CO made the call to not spread the news outside Battalion HQ as carrying CBRN gear would be more detrimental to morale than the possibilty of the shells being used against us. Ballsy call but with hindsight the right one.
Skybird
03-26-11, 05:56 PM
Only sizzies shave. Real men burn their face hair in the muzzle flashes of the enemy's guns! :shucks:
Wreford-Brown
03-26-11, 06:02 PM
Only sizzies shave. Real men burn their face hair in the muzzle flashes of the enemy's guns! :shucks:
You're getting far too close!
Slyguy3129
03-26-11, 06:06 PM
I always though that our military was so bad arse that they command there facial hair not to grow. But honestly I must say mine racked up quite a few Article-15s.
Damn insubordinate stubble!
Bubblehead Nuke
03-26-11, 06:21 PM
The only thing worse than mopp3 is mopp4. Having spent my time in both postures I couldn't imagine doing it with a full beard and long hair even if I could achieve, and maintain, a good seal. Besides the stuff a soldier might have to wear a gas mask against is a heckuva lot more deadly than what a swabbie would wear a mask for.
You would be suprised how deadly our enviroment was. The atmosphere in a submerged submarine would be full of deadly gases in a fire. It would be almost as bad as anything you would encounter on a battlefield except for the deadly skin contact nerve gases. We would have it bad as there is no breeze to delute the concentrations of gases. All we would have would be ever increasing concentrations of toxic gases till we could surface ventilate. Then we would have a rather long clearing process till you could breathe without an EAB or other device.
My beard goes from high on the cheekbones and ends at my toes. I am a rather furry individual when I grow a full beard. I could maintain an airtight seal. Yes, it hurt like hell becuase I had to pull the straps so hard, but it held the leaktest each and every time.
I bet my life on it.
Platapus
03-26-11, 07:00 PM
Any old timers remember the US M-3 Chemical suit?
That's what we used in EOD for our chemical responses.
You would be suprised how deadly our enviroment was. The atmosphere in a submerged submarine would be full of deadly gases in a fire. It would be almost as bad as anything you would encounter on a battlefield except for the deadly skin contact nerve gases.
I'm not underestimating the potential for deadly gases to be found aboard ship Bubblehead, but however dangerous they are they would only be unintended byproducts of an accident or battle damage.
As dangerous as they may be there is no malevolent intent behind them. So you really can't compare them to chemical and biological weapons that are deliberately developed and deployed for the express purpose of killing or incapacitating human beings and even defeating protective gear.
TLAM Strike
03-26-11, 08:19 PM
I'm not underestimating the potential for deadly gases to be found aboard ship Bubblehead, but however dangerous they are they would only be unintended byproducts of an accident or battle damage.
As dangerous as they may be there is no malevolent intent behind them. So you really can't compare them to chemical and biological weapons that are deliberately developed and deployed for the express purpose of killing or incapacitating human beings and even defeating protective gear.
Whats to stop an enemy from using them against a ship? There is a reason most US Navy warships have an NBC decontamination system aboard.
Whats to stop an enemy from using them against a ship? There is a reason most US Navy warships have an NBC decontamination system aboard.
Difficulty of deployment and degree of effectiveness would be two reasons i'd say.
You really can't compare having to stay in a buttoned up ship with an exposed infantryman having to wear a gas mask and suit in an chemical warfare environment.
TLAM Strike
03-26-11, 10:03 PM
Difficulty of deployment and degree of effectiveness would be two reasons i'd say.
You really can't compare having to stay in a buttoned up ship with an exposed infantryman having to wear a gas mask and suit in an chemical warfare environment. Forcing a crew to stay buttoned up could be useful, imagine trying to conduct air ops wearing an NBC suit. Plus there are plenty of weapons on a modern warship that are hand operated, mainly the weapons designed to defend against small craft.
Thinking out loud here, but what if a barrage of NBC tipped rockets blanked an area a warship is patrolling followed by an attack of suicide ramers in Boston Whalers. Wonder if that could be effective.
Forcing a crew to stay buttoned up could be useful, imagine trying to conduct air ops wearing an NBC suit. Plus there are plenty of weapons on a modern warship that are hand operated, mainly the weapons designed to defend against small craft.
Thinking out loud here, but what if a barrage of NBC tipped rockets blanked an area a warship is patrolling followed by an attack of suicide ramers in Boston Whalers. Wonder if that could be effective.
Don't forget the Buck Rogers death ray guns! :DL
No seriously, Chemical weapons are much more easily and effectively deployed on land than they are at sea.
Forcing a crew to stay buttoned up could be useful, imagine trying to conduct air ops wearing an NBC suit. Plus there are plenty of weapons on a modern warship that are hand operated, mainly the weapons designed to defend against small craft.
Thinking out loud here, but what if a barrage of NBC tipped rockets blanked an area a warship is patrolling followed by an attack of suicide ramers in Boston Whalers. Wonder if that could be effective. Something to think about :o
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.