Only In Florida (legislature tries to pass another Intelligent design bill)

[gimpy117]

Here we go again. Some Florida's lawmakers are trying to pass a bill that requires teaches to make a "critical analysis" of evolution, and naming the approach "non-evolution.".
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/17/stephen-wise-non-evolution-schools_n_837130.html

but personally I believe in spaghetti monster evolution, so they ought to teach that.

[Ducimus]

That's the bible belt for ya.

[mookiemookie]

"Why would you not teach both theories at the same time?" Wise, chairman of the Senate Education Committee, said

Because it's not science and cannot be subject to the scientific method or any sort of critical analysis.

"Why do we still have apes if we came from them?" Wise asked during an interview with the Tampa's WMNF. What an idiot.

[razark]

:damn:
Are they going to start teaching astrology as well as astronomy? Alchemy as well as chemistry? Holocaust denial as well as history?

[CCIP]

"Why do we still have apes if we came from them?" Wise asked during an interview with the Tampa's WMNF.
:har:

Wow folks, you just can't make this kind of stuff up. Yeah, I have to agree with Mookie there.

[Freiwillige]

What an idiot.
:agree: Absolutely

[vienna]

Hmmm...

I thought we were placed here by our intergalactic overlords...

[Betonov]

"Why do we still have apes if we came from them?" Wise asked during an interview with the Tampa's WMNF.

Why do we still have Europeans, if Americans came from them....

[razark]

Why do we still have Europeans, if Americans came from them....
If man was made from dirt, why do we still have dirt?

If woman was made from rib, why do we still have ribs?

[Growler]

*headdesk*

Remind me never to move to Florida. Ever.

[Torplexed]

Given his dumb statement, I have a feeling that Chairman Wise would probably also be confused about why we still have chairs. :dead:

[tater]

Wow, truly idiotic.

Just to show that both sides are anti-science, the democrats in NM tried to pass (passed in the house) a bill to allow chiropractors to prescribe drugs. Might as well have added crystal healers to that as well (chiropractors are to medical science what ID "researchers" are to biology (quacks) ).

[Stealth Hunter]

Our state of Texas is trying the same thing again, too.

http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/03/texas-bill-would-outlaw-discrimination-against-creationists

An institution of higher education may not discriminate against or penalize in any manner, especially with regard to employment or academic support, a faculty member or student based on the faculty member's or student's conduct of research relating to the theory of intelligent design or other alternate theories of the origination and development of organisms.Given how poorly we're doing in the science department internationally, I fail to see how this will help matters any further- indeed, it seems this would merely exacerbate things.

Link: http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=82R&Bill=HB2454

[Betonov]

Wow, truly idiotic.

Just to show that both sides are anti-science, the democrats in NM tried to pass (passed in the house) a bill to allow chiropractors to prescribe drugs. Might as well have added crystal healers to that as well (chiropractors are to medical science what ID "researchers" are to biology (quacks) ).

The difference we actually have use for ciropractors, but they are not supposed to prescribe drugs.
ID people are usefull only as side guards on a ship, you tie a rope around their neck and throw the overboard while in port

[yubba]

Florida 3.9 billion in the red, education they say, think of the children, maybe, some one needs to learn, how to count:damn:

[tater]

The difference we actually have use for ciropractors, but they are not supposed to prescribe drugs.
ID people are usefull only as side guards on a ship, you tie a rope around their neck and throw the overboard while in port

We have as much use of chiropractors as ID people.

They claim that all disease (all) can be treated by spinal manipulation. No chiropractic has unambiguous controlled studies showing any efficacy. Are there real medical treatments of ambiguous efficacy when they start? Sure. But not ALL real medical practice.

Chiropractic is no more "medical" than crystal healing. The NM democrats voted party line to support it as "real" medicine in the house. Luckily it got killed in a senate committee because of a single democrat who wasn't a loon.

This is not to dilute the idiocy of ID, and any laws conflating ID with science, which is transcendent :) . I'm just saying that you get emotion and irrationality on both sides of the aisle, just different subjects. You could add much of "environmentalism" and AGW to that as well (note that I think AGW is an entirely legitimate hypothesis, and I'm willing to be 100% on board once they have a robust, predictive model the demonstrates itself vs real observations, not vs other models—I remain scientifically skeptical until then, but completely open-minded to it (I think it is too politicized (by a lot) right now as a field, which is much of the problem)). Environmentalism is also very often entirely irrational—and I consider myself a VERY strict environmentalist from a libertarian POV... pollute as much as you like on YOUR property, but if so much as 1 part per billion touches MY property, you are invading my sovereignty. This libertarian-enviro viewpoint is 100% consistent, and requires no government fiat. Do what you like, then if I detect any evidence of your pollution, I sue you for everything you have.

[Betonov]

We have as much use of chiropractors as ID people...

Ups, I think we have a case of bad translation. Here a chiropractic is an MD, that you go to if you have a bad back, or you had a back injury

[Platapus]

I am a believer of chiropractors. But and that is a large but, chiropractors are a technician of a treatment. They are not to be used for diagnosing your ailment. And I am totally against them being able to prescribe unless they also have an MD.

Chiropractors working with Doctors is the way to go. Each does what they are good at.

Just as an MD prescribes Physical Therapy (also a treatment) MD should be able to prescribe chiropractic treatments.

But in no way would I accept any "diagnosis" from a chiropractors just like I would not accept any "diagnosis" from a Physical Therapist.

And the concept of non-MDs prescribing drugs is just too scary.

[Platapus]

They claim that all disease (all) can be treated by spinal manipulation.


Not all chiropractors claim that. As a data point, every single chiropractor I have seen over the past 20 + years, as not shared this view.

Are you, perhaps creating a strawman argument here?

Can you provide a citation that supports your claim that all chiropractors feel that all diseases can be treated by spinal manipulation? I would be very interested in reading that.

[tater]

Ups, I think we have a case of bad translation. Here a chiropractic is an MD, that you go to if you have a bad back, or you had a back injury

They are not MDs, not even in Europe. They have no basic science training at all. Their claims are entirely unproved in controlled studies. They are quacks.

They can work for 25% of people, just like any other placebo.

[tater]

Not all chiropractors claim that. As a data point, every single chiropractor I have seen over the past 20 + years, as not shared this view.

Are you, perhaps creating a strawman argument here?

Can you provide a citation that supports your claim that all chiropractors feel that all diseases can be treated by spinal manipulation? I would be very interested in reading that.

That is the basis of chiropractic "science."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebral_subluxation

Minus an underlying scientific basis, guys doing stuff "manipulation" for low back pain, etc, are effectively nothing more than massage therapists. It's pure quackery. Osteopaths also sometimes do similar low back pain treatments, but actually have medical training, unlike "DCs."

I'm fine with quackery being legal, but they are not "doctors." You can always tell chiropractors, they call themselves doctor twice (Dr. So-and-so, DC), whereas real docs don't. I think it's confusing for the general public to see them allowed to be called docs. I bet a large % of the general population actually thinks they have medical training— Betonov does, for example. Regardless, letting them prescribe drugs is dangerous, and stupid.

[Betonov]

They are not MDs, not even in Europe. They have no basic science training at all. Their claims are entirely unproved in controlled studies. They are quacks.

They can work for 25% of people, just like any other placebo.

I still dont think we mean the same profession. My father was sent to a chiropractor by a doctor when he had his back problems. Damn, I'm confused. Oh well, I still say it's a translation problem.

[tater]

I still dont think we mean the same profession. My father was sent to a chiropractor by a doctor when he had his back problems. Damn, I'm confused. Oh well, I still say it's a translation problem.

No, it's not a translation issue. Chiropractors call themselves "doctor," but they are NOT MDs. Not anywhere.

Some insurance and HMOs in the US pay for chiropractors for stuff like back pain where at least spinal manipulation is on the appropriate part of the body. In the limited cases of back and joint pain, it has been shown in proper controlled studies to be somewhat better than placebo, but even in studies limited to back pain it is a very tenuous correlation. For everything else they claim to be able to fix (in the schools that teach chiropractic, regardless of what some practitioners might not claim to do) it's 100% BS.

A referral to a chiropractor by a real doc shows either reaching the end of what real medicine can do (frustration), or malpractice depending on who you talk to. As I said above, DOs also do some similar stuff for back pain, the difference is that they have real medical training (though most are probably people who were not smart enough to get into med school—and the chiropractors are those too dumb or lazy for DO school).

IMO, the only reason it even exists is that back pain is so very difficult to treat, period, but affects a vast number of people. In desperation, they seek out anything. For muscular back pain, acupuncture is actually more effective according to controlled studies as I recall. I've had some back problems for months now, and I've never even considered seeing a chiropractor.

[Betonov]

Made some research, it's a local thing. Chiropractic is a general term here. While my father was not sent to a chiropractic, it was SAID he was sent to a chiropractic. Really he was sent to a back specialist. They're casually known as chiropractors here, because they deal with backs. I'd have to convince 1.5 million people that they're wrong, so back specialists are going to be known as chiropractors herefor a long time.

P.S. what's the term for a back specialist ?? anyone ??

[gimpy117]

yeah as i understand it's a broad term...there are some that are quacks...but many are certified and actually have training in spinal care.

[Gargamel]

P.S. what's the term for a back specialist ?? anyone ??

Usuually it's a form of Neurology or Orthopedics, depending on the exact nature of what they are dealing with. Other specialties deal with it too.

Now to the Chiro's being quacks thing.

My wife is a Massage therapist in a a chiro-office. They do help people. But just like any doctor, they can't help everybody. The office my wife works in specializes in injury rehab, so they do more than just thump your back. Most of the good chiro docs don't even put that much emphasis in adjustments, they focus the therapy (maasage, adjustment, PT, etc) as needed for the individual. Now she has worked for some quacks too.

The good docs do far more good than the placebo 25% someone claimed earlier. These guys are good. I've been a Paramedic for 12 years, and some of them chiro's have earned the nickname 'doc' in my book, since I've seen them do just as much good for patients as any MD or DO has. Then, there are those who are retards looking to scam some insurance companies. It's all about finding the right treatment for the right patient. It's not for acute injuries, it's for chronic, repetitive pain that normal medicine can't or won't deal with.

As for them prescribing drugs, there is some good basis behind this. Should we give them access to a whole bunch of schedule II drugs? No. That would lead to abuse. But when they can't prescribe drugs, and the patients doctor is laughing at the patient's request for strong analgesics, then the chiro's need to have some script powers. If they don't, these chronic patients go out, get OTC drugs (tylenol) and way OD on them because it's the ONLY thing that makes the pain stop. So when their liver's fail in a year or so due to toxicity, insurance won't cover it because it was self induced. But it was caused by the system not allowing these patients to get the meds they need. I've seen it more times than I can count. If chiro's could prescribe some medium strength painkillers, mixed with light muscle relaxers, these patients, who are truly only taking these for pain, can get the treatments they need for their problem. Give the chiro's the ability to scribe, within reason, the drugs their patients need.

How do you prevent the abuse that everybody is afraid of? You can't. How often do you hear of this problem in docs? often enough to know that it is a problem. Just apply the same rules and regs that MD's and DO's have.

Dentists can prescribe drugs, and they are 'real' docs either.

I think in the next 15-30 years, as the chiropractic industry starts to regulate itself and get more stringent guidelines on what counts as medicine and what doesn't, I see them becoming as accepted dentistry and the like.

All my arguments are aimed at the good docs who truly are trying to help their patients. Even if that means following alternate (surgery, meds, etc) routes that they can't do.

For the bad chiro's, see all the comments above my post.