Utah - Home of the M1911

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12792633

Got to admit, firearm glorification or not, I can't disagree with this, the M1911 is to the pistol what the AK47 is to the MG IMHO.

So, here's to you Mr Browning. :shucks:

[Gerald]

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller

[Ducimus]

I do plan on owning a 1911, and I do plan on moving to Utah.... i should fit right in!

Seriously though, few things are as uniquely American as that sidearm.

[Gerald]

I do plan on owning a 1911, and I do plan on moving to Utah.... i should fit right in!

Seriously though, few things are as uniquely American as that sidearm. Great,then you're closer to Steve's gigs :yeah:

btw,I prefer the Glock in the end

[Oberon]

Glock is awesome, very modern and you'll probably find that it carries elements from the M1911. The Semi-Automatic pistol started with the Mauser C96, but then Browning took in the M1900, then the Hi-Power and then the M1911 which is still in service today. That's a hundred years with very little change to the original design. That's a classic alright. :yep:

[Ducimus]

The Model 1911 has history and tradition behind it; Glock's plastic pistol doesn't. :O:

edit:
Sorry, can't resist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlOxiwGLAkY

[Gerald]

Certainly, not Glock same history and tradition that in 1911, but in terms of endurance and trusted and that it then is constructed of carbon fiber, which is not the same as "plastic", in situations where the case, then I think that history and tradition are not are essential, in real-life situation

[Platapus]

I spy with my little eye a nit that needs to be picked. :D



the M1911 is to the pistol what the AK47 is to the MG IMHO.

AK 47 is not a machine gun. :nope:

The AK 47 is an Assault Rifle :yep:

Where ever there is a nit to be picked, I will be there. :D

[Ducimus]

Vendor, your missing the point. :O:

edit:
then I think that history and tradition are not are essential, in real-life situation

Despite your missing the point, you do realize that the Model 1911 has served in WW1, WW2, The Korean War, and Vietnam? That's a history that is essential, because if it wasn't a damn good sidearm, it wouldn't have been in service for so long. You can't get much more of a "real life" situation then 4 damn wars.

[Madox58]

I prefer a modified Browning Hi-Power 9mm.
With custom ammo of course.

[Ducimus]

Just saw this on youtube, and got a good laugh. :O:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qplhkyBaWDA


EDIT: Ok here we go.
History channel special. The 10 greatest guns. Model 1911 on this show, comes in at number 3. (it appears about 40 seconds into this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwsmBY4BJw

[Madox58]

The great thing about the 1911?
It will still drop a Target in a HEART BEAT!
:up:

[Gerald]

Vendor, your missing the point. :O:

edit:


Despite your missing the point, you do realize that the Model 1911 has served in WW1, WW2, The Korean War, and Vietnam? That's a history that is essential, because if it wasn't a damn good sidearm, it wouldn't have been in service for so long. You can't get much more of a "real life" situation then 4 damn wars. I have never claimed that 1911 is bad or anything negative, I am well aware of its extent in different wars, but you should keep in mind that you can not just rely on history, that I mentioned Glock, is that I personally think it's good then I could have said Crossman, Baretta Elite 2 etc, the state of the world shifts fairly rapidly, as you know

[August]

I've always been happy with my M1911.

[TorpX]

Yes, the M1911 is everything a proper sidearm should be. I never thought the adoption of the Baretta was a good move. As far as the Glocks are concerned, I don't care much for them. They seem to function alright, but have a very spongy trigger (the early ones anyway), and I can't see paying hundreds of dollars for a plastic firearm (excuse me, a "polymer" firearm).

[Oberon]

I spy with my little eye a nit that needs to be picked. :D



AK 47 is not a machine gun. :nope:

The AK 47 is an Assault Rifle :yep:

Where ever there is a nit to be picked, I will be there. :D

:damn: You know originally I wrote SMG, then I looked it up and thought, no...the AK47 is not an SMG so it must be an MG...

http://liveforfilms.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/lex-luthor-wrong.jpg

:haha:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Speaking of SMGs......

While the M1911 is a fine weapon and I agree with TorpX that the M9(Beretta 92F) is a poor replacement, I still have no idea why we didn't replace pistols with SMGs in US military service a long time ago. Pistols are very inflexible weapons that require a lot of training to use effectively in close combat, which is the only time one would ever use them.

[Penguin]

Speaking of SMGs......

While the M1911 is a fine weapon and I agree with TorpX that the M9(Beretta 92F) is a poor replacement, I still have no idea why we didn't replace pistols with SMGs in US military service a long time ago. Pistols are very inflexible weapons that require a lot of training to use effectively in close combat, which is the only time one would ever use them.

Well a full-sized SMG would be too inflexible, but I guess you're more thinking about something like a PDW.
The reasons for that are probably only of financial nature - and the stockpile of pistols still in the arsenals.

[Platapus]

I still have no idea why we didn't replace pistols with SMGs in US military service a long time ago.

Well, think about the requirements for a side arm.

One of them is the ability to be carried easily and with little encumbrance. Since the sidearm is a weapon of last resort, most of the time it is in the holster.

I would also opine that with the average amount of training that our military gets, a SMG would probably be more hazardous than a side arm.

Just go to any clearing barrel on a military base, look under it and count the holes caused by weapons that were unloaded. :yep:

[MaddogK]

Plastic guns are nice, but an empty 1911 will still crack your head open if someone hits you with it.

I'd love to have mine chambered for a .40 like the browning HP, but I'm not trading mine in for a double action, the .45 is a bit much for home defense. For accuracy I still prefer my old 9X18 makarov (2 hands NOT required).

[Growler]

Weight is a sign of reliability. And if it doesn't work, you can always hit him with it.

Let's see. Part of the legend of the 1911 is that it was designed to put a .45 slug into a target that wasn't being stopped by a .38, so here we are today, replacing that .45 cal with a 9mm (roughly .36 cal)... hmm...

[yubba]

Just put a new barrel and some springs in my great grandfathers Colt 1911 , yet to be fired, hasn't been fired in 60 years. It is in remarkable shape, United States property No. 518629.

[em2nought]

USA hasn't made really good decisions in quite awhile. 9mm's being a great example. :03:

[Freiwillige]

Actually I just read an article that say's some of the recent hot load 9mm has reached the stopping power of the .45

Impressive as that sounds one has to wonder what a hot loaded .45 equates too? I'm thinking Pirate cannon!:arrgh!:

[Sailor Steve]

...the .45 is a bit much for home defense.
I have a friend who swears that the .45 is the absolute best for home defense. His reasoning is that the bullet is heavy but slow, and less likely to go through walls and kill the wrong person. I don't know, I'm just sayin'. Of course he can choose which eye to hit at 20 feet, so I'm not him.

On the other hand, it's my opinion that the best handgun is the one you feel most comfortable with, so all size arguments are null and void.

[August]

USA hasn't made really good decisions in quite awhile. 9mm's being a great example. :03:

It was part of a NATO ammo standardization deal. The other member countries pick up the 5.56mm and we adopt the 9mm.

[TLAM Strike]

It was part of a NATO ammo standardization deal. The other member countries pick up the 5.56mm and we adopt the 9mm.

In hindsight a crummy deal both ways... :03:

[TorpX]

In hindsight a crummy deal both ways... :03:
Yes, especially since NATO seems like such a dinosaur these days.

[Gargamel]

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller

While I respect that quote, I gotta admit, to her, Avoiding danger was missing the couch in the morning.


Anyways.... :salute: to the M1911

[Growler]

I have a friend who swears that the .45 is the absolute best for home defense. His reasoning is that the bullet is heavy but slow, and less likely to go through walls and kill the wrong person. I don't know, I'm just sayin'. Of course he can choose which eye to hit at 20 feet, so I'm not him.

On the other hand, it's my opinion that the best handgun is the one you feel most comfortable with, so all size arguments are null and void.

On a similar note, I grew up a few doors down from a dude who owned a "liberated" P08. One night, he heard noises from the downstairs living room - someone had unlawfully entered the house. Dude's pop goes to the top of the step and chambers a round. In the otherwise quiet house, the sound was apparently loud and very distinctive. Perp vanished with their toaster by jumping through the front sunroom window.

I'd also heard it said the the best home defense weapon was an unloaded pump shotgun. Just rack the slide once and watch the bad guy(s) leave, then analyze the stain they left on the floor for DNA. :DL

[Schroeder]

I don't want to talk down the .45 but I actually wonder whether there have been cases where a 9mm wasn't enough to stop somebody. :hmm2:
I sure as hell wouldn't want to attack any one anymore if I had been hit by one.:dead:

[Freiwillige]

Well ideally you want the most stopping power in the least dangerous to anybody outside your home fashion. The .45 fits that bill perfectly. Its a big round but as was pointed out previously in this thread its velocity is far less than some handgun loads. The 9MM jacketed proved to be low in stopping power in Iraq. Although the military doesn't exactly hand out hollowpoints.

And as far as that empty shotgun scenario:nope:
Its a myth. Even if loaded you don't want to cycle it cause you just lost a round in what could be the fight for your life and you just gave away your surprise and position:doh: Two things you would be best to keep as long as possible in a worst case scenario!

[Sailor Steve]

I don't want to talk down the .45 but I actually wonder whether there have been cases where a 9mm wasn't enough to stop somebody. :hmm2:
I sure as hell wouldn't want to attack any one anymore if I had been hit by one.:dead:
A .22 in the heart or a major artery will kill him just as well as a .44 magnum. The problem comes with knockdown power. As related in the 'Philippines' story, the attacking Moros could be shot several times with a .36 and still keep coming if not hit in a vital spot, and the .45 would knock them down even if hit in the arm.

On the other hand the .36 in question was a revolver, and only held six shots. The modern 9mm does let you shoot two or three times in rapid succession, which certainly helps. Also important is the fact that most gunfights involve a lot more misses than hits, so having that extra ammo is nice.

I good explanation can be found in the post by Alex Niese here http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=144324478418&topic=19107. He gives the reasons for preferring either weapon, and for his personal preference.

It boils down to preference. The 9mm is faster, has a higher capacity, is more accurate, and is prone to over-penetration. This puts you in situations where you have to worry about wounding an innocent with a through-and-through shot. The .45 is slower, has a smaller capacity, and because of it's slower speed, expands better and is more likely to stay in the body. Also, the .45's wound channel is larger, and has a better chance of staying open. I know, I know, penetration all depends on the bad guy's body mass, clothing, etc, I'm talking about tests in ballistic gelatin. It's honestly just a personal choice--I couldn't decide between the two, thats why I went with .40. Its a nice balance of the two. Then again, thats just my opinion, not the law.

[Gerald]

http://i.imgur.com/vg0qu.jpg

[Schroeder]

@Freiwillige & Sailor Steve

Thanks, I didn't know that a .45 could get stuck in a human body.:doh:

[TLAM Strike]

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8936/a66cd6f52caf49cea1e6754.jpg

[August]

And as far as that empty shotgun scenario:nope:
Its a myth. Even if loaded you don't want to cycle it cause you just lost a round in what could be the fight for your life and you just gave away your surprise and position:doh: Two things you would be best to keep as long as possible in a worst case scenario!

Exactly. For safety reasons you don't keep a round in the chamber. Racking the slide both arms the weapon AND opens up a space in the magazine to load another round.

[Madox58]

If your serious about defending yourself during Home invasions?
You've alot more rigged then just a Fire Arm.
My home HAS BEEN invaded!
(The wife and I were in Hawaii at the time or bodies WOULD have been hauled out!
My step-son and his friend ended up in a hospital, the perps ended up in prison.)

I have more then just Fire Arms ready to defend my home now.
They are pretty much fail safe in the fact they use one's instincts against the invader, are non-lethal to the invader (unless he hangs around)
, and secure my family in a safe room without getting out of bed.

[Platapus]

I don't want to talk down the .45 but I actually wonder whether there have been cases where a 9mm wasn't enough to stop somebody. :hmm2:
I sure as hell wouldn't want to attack any one anymore if I had been hit by one.:dead:

Both the .45 and the 9mm are effective rounds for self defense. The .45 vs 9mm debate has been going on for years and years.

Bullet design influences each one's effectiveness. But all influences are overshadowed by bullet placement.

A .45 in the "wrong" place will result in the person still standing and being able to shoot back. A 9mm in the "right" place will drop them immediately.

What is the right and wrong place? Depends on the situation.

Neither the .45 nor the 9mm is a guaranteed stop or guaranteed kill. :nope:

There is also the influences of how the shooter can shoot the individual gun. .45 handguns are not the same as 9mm handguns and some shooters can shoot better with one than the other.

When I was shooting IPSA scores were downgraded when the shooter used the 9mm (at least they did about 20+ years when I was shooting in competition), but many shooters still choose to use the 9mm round despite this downgrading. Why? Because their shooting ability with the 9mm compensated for the scoring differences.

It is always better to hit with a 9mm than to miss with a .45 :yep:

It is also better to shoot your target with two 9mm rounds than one .45 round :D Double tapping with a .45 can be more difficult than with a 9mm, depending on the firearm.

[Gerald]

Both the .45 and the 9mm are effective rounds for self defense. The .45 vs 9mm debate has been going on for years and years.

Bullet design influences each one's effectiveness. But all influences are overshadowed by bullet placement.

A .45 in the "wrong" place will result in the person still standing and being able to shoot back. A 9mm in the "right" place will drop them immediately.

What is the right and wrong place? Depends on the situation.

Neither the .45 nor the 9mm is a guaranteed stop or guaranteed kill. :nope:

There is also the influences of how the shooter can shoot the individual gun. .45 handguns are not the same as 9mm handguns and some shooters can shoot better with one than the other.

When I was shooting IPSA scores were downgraded when the shooter used the 9mm (at least they did about 20+ years when I was shooting in competition), but many shooters still choose to use the 9mm round despite this downgrading. Why? Because their shooting ability with the 9mm compensated for the scoring differences.

It is always better to hit with a 9mm than to miss with a .45 :yep:

It is also better to shoot your target with two 9mm rounds than one .45 round :D Double tapping with a .45 can be more difficult than with a 9mm, depending on the firearm. A lot to do with where you aim somewhere, and what type of ammo you use

[Madox58]

Anyone shooting in a defensive or offensive mode should be doing a double tap anyway.
Many Military Fire Arms now fire 2 shots anyway on selectable don't they?

[Madox58]

A lot to do with where you aim somewhere, and what type of ammo you use

In the dark and in a near panic mode?
Most just fire in a general direction.
Ammo used is based mostly on what you THINK is good.
The average person probably uses what is sold to them by a Gun Shop.
I prep my Ammo to do the worst damage it can.
A hollow point is nice, but an explodeing round is better in Home Defence.
It may be illegal as all get out?
But better judged by 12 then carried by 6!

[Gerald]

In the dark and in a near panic mode?
Most just fire in a general direction.
Ammo used is based mostly on what you THINK is good.
The average person probably uses what is sold to them by a Gun Shop.
I prep my Ammo to do the worst damage it can.
A hollow point is nice, but an explodeing round is better in Home Defence.
It may be illegal as all get out?
But better judged by 12 then carried by 6! Now is this the way that I did not get into a panic mode, the darkness is my friend many times, and I use the weapon, which is best for the current situation, in most cases, I have two weapons, one can be with a silencer, and the other is a back-up so for me I do not use guns to protect me for intruders

[Madox58]

In the U.S.?
Sound Suppression on a Fire Arm is illegal!
Worse then explodeing ammo!

On the not getting in a panic mode?
Some may not. Most will just freak due to lack of proper Mind set or training.
There are many cases in the U.S. of people killing loved ones out of shear panic.
Someone came home late and tried to sneak in and such.

Accidental shootings of persons comes from believeing one is better then the weapon.
One MUST fully understand they are the ultimate controller of said weapon!
It will kill you or others at the moment you let your guard down!
I had a fellow ParaTrooper back in the day that forgot this.
In the barracks one night they decided to play 'quick draw'.
Both did a Gun Fight quick draw type thing.
One died. In the blink of an eye?
His whole world was was gone. There is no takeing that back.
The other went to jail for I don't know how long.
His world was therefore crushed also.
Why? Because they let down thier guards about Fire Arms.
They are NOT toys.

[Platapus]

In the U.S.?
Sound Suppression on a Fire Arm is illegal!
Worse then explodeing ammo!

Not always illegal, In many states it is a Class III device. If you have the right permits and pay the taxes, you can own them.

[Madox58]

Yes, I have all the forms and such.
Never bothered to actually get the permits.
Which it seems only the Local Sheriff needs to OK?
Now that would go over great here as I've already told them I'd kill any S.O.B. that comes on my property without permission!
:haha:

You must understand, after the Home Invasion?
There was a, shall we call it, a WTF by the Sheriff's Department.
Around 4 in the morning someone started beating on my door.
Not knocking mind you, BEATING!
This was shortly AFTER the Home Invasion and I had arrived home form Hawaii.
I went out of the House in a different direction and came up behind this Idiot undetected.
IF the security lights I installed that day had not came on at that moment?
I would have bagged a 190+ lb Deputy!
He totally was shaken up by the whole thing!
Here's a Guy that thought he was on a simple assignment that could have ended with him dead!
I had him in a position that if I had went one step further? He would have been dead and never knew what happened.
They know NOT to approach my home in that manor ever again.
They also know that I am deadly serious about the whole issue of self defence.
I don't make it a secret now, nor will I.
You invade my property? I will do all I can to exterminate you.
But I would think any permit I applied for as to Suppressors and such would be turned down.
:har:
Not that I need any stinking permits!
:stare:

[Sailor Steve]

:rotfl2: Good job Jeff!

A long time ago I was listening to G. Gordon Liddy's radio show, and a caller asked him what kind of sidearms he owned.

"The G-Man is a convicted felon, and is not allowed to own any firearms. Mrs. Liddy, however...", and he rattled off a list as long as your arm.

Had me on the floor. :har:

[Madox58]

Hey Steve,

One thing I am DEADLY serious about?
That is defending my Loved ones!
I draw no limits to what I would need to do or get ready for.
I also draw no limits on what would happen to those that attack me in anyway here at home.
I'm not a neo-nazi or anything like that!
I just want to be left alone!
I have one rule and one rule only.

Rule 1:
You mess with me or my family?
I will do my best to take you out.
Additions to that rule depending on the situation could get really ugly.
I am perfectly capable and know enuff in many different areas to make
nightmare come true thanks to what I was trained for by the U.S.

[Gerald]

In the U.S.?
Sound Suppression on a Fire Arm is illegal!
Worse then explodeing ammo!

On the not getting in a panic mode?
Some may not. Most will just freak due to lack of proper Mind set or training.
There are many cases in the U.S. of people killing loved ones out of shear panic.
Someone came home late and tried to sneak in and such.

Accidental shootings of persons comes from believeing one is better then the weapon.
One MUST fully understand they are the ultimate controller of said weapon!
It will kill you or others at the moment you let your guard down!
I had a fellow ParaTrooper back in the day that forgot this.
In the barracks one night they decided to play 'quick draw'.
Both did a Gun Fight quick draw type thing.
One died. In the blink of an eye?
His whole world was was gone. There is no takeing that back.
The other went to jail for I don't know how long.
His world was therefore crushed also.
Why? Because they let down thier guards about Fire Arms.
They are NOT toys. Sorry to hear about your friend from ParaTrooper, but given what you describe is very much on instinct and emotional behavior in different situations, training is important, but the reality is too many scary, and what you do, then, must always be the consequence, whether positive or negative

[Gargamel]

Yes, I have all the forms and such.
Never bothered to actually get the permits.
Which it seems only the Local Sheriff needs to OK?
Now that would go over great here as I've already told them I'd kill any S.O.B. that comes on my property without permission!
:haha:

You must understand, after the Home Invasion?
There was a, shall we call it, a WTF by the Sheriff's Department.
Around 4 in the morning someone started beating on my door.
Not knocking mind you, BEATING!
This was shortly AFTER the Home Invasion and I had arrived home form Hawaii.
I went out of the House in a different direction and came up behind this Idiot undetected.
IF the security lights I installed that day had not came on at that moment?
I would have bagged a 190+ lb Deputy!
He totally was shaken up by the whole thing!
Here's a Guy that thought he was on a simple assignment that could have ended with him dead!
I had him in a position that if I had went one step further? He would have been dead and never knew what happened.
They know NOT to approach my home in that manor ever again.
They also know that I am deadly serious about the whole issue of self defence.
I don't make it a secret now, nor will I.
You invade my property? I will do all I can to exterminate you.
But I would think any permit I applied for as to Suppressors and such would be turned down.
:har:
Not that I need any stinking permits!
:stare:

Which county SO?


Home defense is no joke. I'm glad we have a castle law here. There's no reason anybody should get into trouble for defending themselves and their family.

I had a impact weapons instructor years ago teach us that killing a human is not illegal, but murder is. Defending your home is not murder.

[Gerald]

Which county SO?


Home defense is no joke. I'm glad we have a castle law here. There's no reason anybody should get into trouble for defending themselves and their family.

I had a impact weapons instructor years ago teach us that killing a human is not illegal, but murder is. Defending your home is not murder. Then we enter the legal bits, of course, you may use self-defense, to a certain limit, this is obviously different depending on what you live and work in many cases

[Madox58]

Hi Vendor,

I believe in being highly trained if you own and use a Fire Arm!
I also believe that is up to the person buying a Fire Arm.
If you do not get the training and things go wrong?
You must then puy the price.
With my 9 mm HangGun?
I can wound you at 100 feet every shot.
God help you if you are closer.
My home is very small.
After the home invasion?
I adapted several things I had access to.
My Bed Room walls and door are now plate steel under the drywall.
You'd need a really bad round to go throught it.
I have fire ports so I can fire back if need be.
But for the most part?
Remote systems will be what will do the job.
Those are deadly in a way that nearly scares me.
I need no electricity to use the defenses. So cutting power is a waste of time, and also activates some of those same systems.
In protecting My Home?
I WILL use whatever means I can.

[Gerald]

Hi Vendor,

I believe in being highly trained if you own and use a Fire Arm!
I also believe that is up to the person buying a Fire Arm.
If you do not get the training and things go wrong?
You must then puy the price.
With my 9 mm HangGun?
I can wound you at 100 feet every shot.
God help you if you are closer.
My home is very small.
After the home invasion?
I adapted several things I had access to.
My Bed Room walls and door are now plate steel under the drywall.
You'd need a really bad round to go throught it.
I have fire ports so I can fire back if need be.
But for the most part?
Remote systems will be what will do the job.
Those are deadly in a way that nearly scares me.
I need no electricity to use the defenses. So cutting power is a waste of time, and also activates some of those same systems.
In protecting My Home?
I WILL use whatever means I can. Jeff! I had a clear picture before this post, and I see no negatvit in defending your family and home, which I would do if that were the case, which is a right to do, and a matter of course

[Madox58]

Killing another Human has a lot more impact then just what the Law allows.

One can say
'I'll shoot any S.O.B. that breaks in my house!'
Then you do.
And you watch him die on the floor.
It might take several minutes depending on where you hit him.
He's probably crying and trying to ask you to send a message to his Mom or Wife.
You now need to live the rest of your life based on that single moment in time.
It will not change! It's always going to be what happened no matter how you wish it was different.
Just look at past things in your life that you wish you could change!
But you know you can't!
Can you today put a Gun to someones head and pull the trigger?
If you can't?
Don't say you can kill an intruder!
If you can not pull the trigger today? You will hesitate!
That is the difference between life and death for you and your loved one.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm not a neo-nazi or anything like that!
My friend, I never meant to imply that you were. I was just relating an amusing story. :sunny:

[August]

It is always better to hit with a 9mm than to miss with a .45 :yep:

My old sergeant used to say that the basic rule of thumb for shooting a .45 is that it's about as accurate as a thrown baseball for about the same effective range. If you can't reliably hit a person at home plate with a baseball from, say, 2nd base, then you are likely just wasting your ammo to try it with a pistol round.

I imagine the 9mm is the same.

[Buddahaid]

Which county SO?


Home defense is no joke. I'm glad we have a castle law here. There's no reason anybody should get into trouble for defending themselves and their family.

I had a impact weapons instructor years ago teach us that killing a human is not illegal, but murder is. Defending your home is not murder.

Where I live you cross the line when the invader/attacker is subdued. After that any "home defense" is a criminal act on your part. Clear and easy right?

[Gargamel]

Where I live you cross the line when the invader/attacker is subdued. After that any "home defense" is a criminal act on your part. Clear and easy right?

Ah yes. If the person is no longer a threat to you or yours, then that is stepping over the line.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Well, think about the requirements for a side arm.

One of them is the ability to be carried easily and with little encumbrance. Since the sidearm is a weapon of last resort, most of the time it is in the holster.
Alright, I am considering the requirements for a sidearm, and I'm not seeing the point. First off, if the encumbrance factor of a modern SMG that can easily fit in a slightly larger thigh holster or easily slung in addition to a rifle, you've got personnel and training problems that pistols will do little to avail.

Secondly, if a sidearm is supposed to be a weapon of last resort, wouldn't you rather have the the one that sprays many bullets at a general area in the time it takes to aim and fire one shot from a pistol, particularly when you're in a situation where the enemy is so close that either could realistically be used?

I would also opine that with the average amount of training that our military gets, a SMG would probably be more hazardous than a side arm.
I would opine that with the average amount of training our military gets it would be hazardous for them to wield any firearm at all, but that doesn't stop the military from issuing hand grenades and LMGs to soldiers fresh out of recruit training. What makes you think a sidearm would be more dangerous than those? Either they know how to handle weapons or they don't, and if they don't why do they have weapons?

Just go to any clearing barrel on a military base, look under it and count the holes caused by weapons that were unloaded. :yep:
I have to agree with you there. I think the military has a major problem with both training effectiveness and the people they recruit, which I why I consistently favor expansion of the roles played by PMCs, but that's another discussion for another time.

[Madox58]

My friend, I never meant to imply that you were. I was just relating an amusing story. :sunny:
I know that Steve.
:up:
I was just hopeing to avoid someone thinking I'm some off the wall loon!
(Well, I am in some ways :haha:, just not THAT way!)

[Sailor Steve]

Where I live you cross the line when the invader/attacker is subdued. After that any "home defense" is a criminal act on your part. Clear and easy right?
Same here in Utah. You can shoot someone coming through the door, as you have no way of knowing his intentions, but if he's on the way out, even carrying your most precious stuff, he's off limits, as he's obviously not a threat.

But the same rule applies on the street. If you see someone beating someone with a baseball bat or attacking them with a knife, you're free to stop them the fastest way possible.

Secondly, if a sidearm is supposed to be a weapon of last resort, wouldn't you rather have the the one that sprays many bullets at a general area in the time it takes to aim and fire one shot from a pistol, particularly when you're in a situation where the enemy is so close that either could realistically be used?
Yep. Kill the bad guy, kill the guy he's attacking, kill your kids, kill the neighbor...

I'll stick with the .45, thanks.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Yep. Kill the bad guy, kill the guy he's attacking, kill your kids, kill the neighbor...

I'll stick with the .45, thanks.

That was in reference to my suggestion that SMGs should replace pistols as military sidearms, Steve. I am aware that they are impractical for home defense.

[Freiwillige]

Well a combat pistol is an extension of your hand, like pointing a finger at someone it is natural, a SMG probably other than the fact that its bigger, wont holster and your instinct is to hold it mid section as opposed to your eye level just plain costs more to produce.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Well a combat pistol is an extension of your hand, like pointing a finger at someone it is natural, a SMG probably other than the fact that its bigger, wont holster and your instinct is to hold it mid section as opposed to your eye level just plain costs more to produce.

A pistol is no more an extension of your hand than a bow and arrow is an extension of your forearm. Simply pointing it at the enemy as best you can perceive with binocular vision is no more accurate than throwing a rock at somebody. In combat circumstances where you are being fired at, this is even more true. A slight vibration in the wrist or a forceful trigger-pull or an improperly aligned sight picture can easily result in a miss.

Also, a well-trained soldier will never fire a weapon from the mid-section unless unduly pressed, no matter what feels natural. For a trained marksman, a "natural" feeling is to automatically align field of view with the gunsight and vice-versa, no matter what small arms they may be wielding. You can't do that while firing from the hip unless you are superbly talented. "Plain instinct" is no excuse.

Finally, the cost of SMGs is no obstacle, nor is the cost of their ammunition. The US military has long since accepted the fact that automatic weapons should form the basis of infantry combat. That is why squads and fire-teams are formed around automatic rifles. They already know that volume of firepower is more valuable than precision. Given that, how can we justify spending the billions we willingly proffer to experimental defense projects that fail to deliver satisfactory results for the investment or simply fail altogether when there is a perfectly good solution to a problem staring us in the face at a fraction of the cost?

I have a feeling that that the failure lies not with military reasoning so much as it does with the intertwined political concerns.

[Sailor Steve]

That was in reference to my suggestion that SMGs should replace pistols as military sidearms, Steve. I am aware that they are impractical for home defense.
Well I was talking about what I was talking about and you weren't! So there! :O:

Seriously, sorry about that. :oops: I'd promise that it won't happen again, but I'm trying to stop lying. :sunny:

[Gargamel]

The machine pistol may be a decent compromise between a single shot pistol and a SMG.

[TLAM Strike]

The US military has long since accepted the fact that automatic weapons should form the basis of infantry combat. That is why squads and fire-teams are formed around automatic rifles. They already know that volume of firepower is more valuable than precision. Given that, how can we justify spending the billions we willingly proffer to experimental defense projects that fail to deliver satisfactory results for the investment or simply fail altogether when there is a perfectly good solution to a problem staring us in the face at a fraction of the cost?
Volume of firepower can mean many things if you think about it. Volume in the number of weapons fired, volume in the number of targets engaged, volume in the intensity of the shot, volume in the area effected by the shot. A USMC Fireteam confronted my a thousand men armed with muzzle loaders or a single man armed with atomic grenade launcher stands little chance of victory.

The Fusil modèle 1866 was an experimental weapon once, so was the M1 Garand and the M-16. Who knows what today's experimental weapon might become, look back at the old Star Trek, one of the things they got right on the money was the Phaser; a pistol that could stun a mob or level a city block. Developing a weapon that can hit a single target or wipe out an army would be well worth the effort.

Although well before that I see a return to the rocket gun, with miniaturization going like it is a self guided, high explosive, rocket bullets might be a possibility. A rifle that fires a thousand rounds of lead in a straight line isn't a valuable as a gun that can fire a hundred rounds around a corner or over a building and accurately hit its target.