GOP plans to slash funding to EPA and cut environmental rules. [Archive]

View Full Version : GOP plans to slash funding to EPA and cut environmental rules.

gimpy117

03-16-11, 08:48 PM

http://www.kansascity.com/2011/03/07/2705273/gop-spending-bill-targets-environmental.html

Why is the GOP doing this? why is the most funding cut? Do they have some ax to grind on the hippies?

It just seems like a bad idea to eliminate rules preventing things like...oh mercury from poisoning us. :06:

krashkart

03-16-11, 09:26 PM

I don't know if they have an axe to grind, but if that's the best they can do to cut the deficit then they're not trying hard enough. Slash environmental funding and we lose how many decades of progress and the money spent on making that progress happen? Hrm... There must be another way. How about they all go without pay for a few years? That would help. :hmmm:

Armistead

03-16-11, 09:48 PM

Well, if you study it, looks like more corporate giveaways. Certainly some items need to be cut, but when this crap happens it's just a political sell out. We've already seen corporate profits soar and no trickle down effect and they won't to keep lowering corporate taxes. In reality, it's not taxes they care about, it's buying regulation and the GOP is a big sellout. Dems aren't far behind. Our government nothing but a bunch of sold out criminals.

Growler

03-16-11, 09:51 PM

Our government nothing but a bunch of sold out criminals.

What the heck do you mean by this?

We have absolutely the best government that special interests and corporate donors can buy, thank you very much.

August

03-16-11, 10:02 PM

And meanwhile the Obama administration is going to cut off funding for the new US Earthquake Warning System, putting potentially millions of Americans lives at risk.

Go figure.

mookiemookie

03-16-11, 10:19 PM

Funding for these sorts of projects are such a small piece of the pie. It's clear that this isn't about budget concerns - it's pure politics.

Gargamel

03-16-11, 10:51 PM

US Earthquake Warning System,

That made me laugh!! Thanks August.

Sounds kinda like the same sorta of severe weather system I've seen in the back country.

http://weatherrockcampground.com/img/photo6.jpg

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Is the ground shaking?

Yup? Earthquake.

Can you stand up?

Nope? Bad Earthquake.

I'm all for making a safe and reliable prediction system, but I highly doubt it will end up being accurate enough to make a reliable Early Warning system. Psuedo Science Pork FTW!.

This is exaclty what Bush did in his first few months in office. He revoked/repealed the majority of the huge environmental gains that Clinton made, all so his Oil Cronies could make more money. I sat there and fumed as I saw law after law being repealed all in the sake of money. Then a few years ago, I saw this documentary (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1558250/) which details the affects of the Bush "environmental" legislation on a personal level.

GoldenRivet

03-17-11, 01:36 AM

Tribesman

03-17-11, 04:43 AM

They shut down a local construction site for a whole day because they had the wrong style of gas cans for christs sake.

That happens everywhere, its normal. There are damn good reasons why there is legislation concerning the storage of chemicals in the workplace.
Sure everyone tries to get away with using any old drum thats lying around.
But when something does go wrong then you are responsible and liable, and if you get caught even if nothing has gone wrong then you are still responsible and liable.
People who complain about getting caught have no grounds to complain.

The gas can the EPA recommends is a pure POS and has resulted in me accidentally dumping at least a half gallon per fill up into the local lake.
That probably reflects your own abilities rather than the quality of the container

These sub-human pieces of trash mandate everything from the type of light bulbs you buy to the type of gas cans you can store fuel in within your own GD garage.

If we don't strike back they WILL regulate us right into extinction.
You sound like Skybird;)

Takeda Shingen

03-17-11, 05:49 AM

First $20k-a-year teacher salaries, now a return to rivers that burn. Not exactly the vision for America that I was hoping for.

Penguin

03-17-11, 06:11 AM

How wise and long-term-thinking! Even from a strict financial POV this is bs. The costs lax enviromental laws cause outweigh the short term savings.
This is typical for bean counters who only think of their own budget. Showing "financial sensibility" by cutting a budget and not thinking of the costs the general public has to pay.
Who pays if people's health get affected by lax regulations? Right, everybody for themselves...:nope:

@GR: I give a flying **** about PC, but I think the term subhumans is not appropriate for this forum. Maybe it's just the Kraut in me, but I can't stand this expression.

AngusJS

03-17-11, 06:30 AM

Then a few years ago, I saw this documentary (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1558250/) which details the affects of the Bush "environmental" legislation on a personal level.That's a good film. Sometimes environmentalists talk about what chemicals are in our water without considering if they're at dangerous levels or not, but I think everyone can agree that you should not be able to set your tapwater on fire as it's coming out of the faucet.

And Bush exempted these gas companies from the Clean Water Act so they could do whatever they want, public health be damned.

mookiemookie

03-17-11, 07:02 AM

First $20k-a-year teacher salaries, now a return to rivers that burn. Not exactly the vision for America that I was hoping for.

Funny. I was about to post this picture without comment:

http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/images/11-3-52.jpg

August

03-17-11, 07:29 AM

I'm all for making a safe and reliable prediction system, but I highly doubt it will end up being accurate enough to make a reliable Early Warning system. Psuedo Science Pork FTW!.

Well from what I read it's an improved version of the system they have already installed in Japan and that did save some lives. I think your calling it "pseudo science pork" without even checking into it, sort of belies your claim that your "for a safe and reliable prediction system".

GoldenRivet

03-17-11, 11:25 AM

@ Tribesman...

these little POS EPA Gas Cans that are not vented, and require you to tip the gas can with one hand, while pulling back and twisting the sheath on the pour spout with the other hand... they SUCK and are a horrible idea.

the reality of it is that 5 gallons of gas weighs about 30 lbs, they pour at a rate of about one gallon per 2-3 minutes and it requires considerable effort to operate such an awkward device for 10-12 minutes in such a twisted half assed manner as they recommend.

thus, you get people who say to hell with it, pop off the spout, up end the container and pour the fuel freely into the tank. on a rocking boat, this can result in some spillage unfortunately.

with the old style gas cans that the government didnt have their hands all over, i could unscrew the vent cap, tip the gas can up with both hands (adding substantial stability) placing the ENTIRE pour spout into the fuel tank and just hold it there... the whole can would be empty in 1.5-2 minutes flat.

on the subject of the EPA regulating things in general.

yes... some regulatory items are important.

NO.. i don't think it makes a hell of a lot of difference what sort of gas can a construction company uses to fuel up their bulldozers and chain saws and weed eaters.

and i especially dont think the government should have its say on every little thing people can or cannot go to the store and buy.

shut down the EPA? no

Trim the fat and tell them to chill the F out? absolutely

Platapus

03-17-11, 11:41 AM

GoldenRivet

03-17-11, 11:55 AM

From an economics standpoint, cutting the EPA is like being on the Titanic after she struck an iceberg and deciding to fix a leaky faucet. :nope:

Focus needs to be on the Military Industrial Complex, Social Security Programs, and Medicare.

Anything else is small spuds.

while there is some truth to that... i think that there is also the whole "death by a million paper cuts" concept here too.

cutting a lot of things from the budget adds up too

EDIT:

i think it shows something interesting about our two parties when one wants to cut over $50B from the budget and the other about $5B

Takeda Shingen

03-17-11, 12:23 PM

while there is some truth to that... i think that there is also the whole "death by a million paper cuts" concept here too.

cutting a lot of things from the budget adds up too

EDIT:

i think it shows something interesting about our two parties when one wants to cut over $50B from the budget and the other about $5B

I also think it is interesting that this $50 billion is but a drop in the bucket compared to the total budget, and that nearly all of those cuts are from the welfare and heath sectors. The 24% of the US budget that goes to defense spending remains largely untouched. This seems far more ideological, and far less practical. I think that Platapus' point stands.

krashkart

03-17-11, 12:30 PM

these little POS EPA Gas Cans that are not vented, and require you to tip the gas can with one hand, while pulling back and twisting the sheath on the pour spout with the other hand... they SUCK and are a horrible idea.

the reality of it is that 5 gallons of gas weighs about 30 lbs, they pour at a rate of about one gallon per 2-3 minutes and it requires considerable effort to operate such an awkward device for 10-12 minutes in such a twisted half assed manner as they recommend.

A typical committee decision -- take something simple and complicate it to the point of being insanely counter-intuitive. I give 'em an A+ for job effectiveness. :haha:

Rockstar

03-17-11, 12:39 PM

I hope this equates to reducing certain regulations.

I live on an island that is speedily washing away with the tides. About 3 acres a year and there isn't much left. They say environmental studies need to be done before a protective barrier may be constructed. Got to protect the greenery and ecosystem heaven forbid if we harm that! Farking environmental bureaucrats don't get it that in ten years there won't be any greenery or an Island. Homes will wash in trash sewage everything. All these idiots are concerned with are environmental impact studies about a seawall and and several acres of sandy bottom. Thanks to idiotic environmental regulations!

Look at Tangier, VA on Google Earth. Look on the north end of the island. In the 50's there was a village grocey store, movie theatre, church homes with about 500 people living there. But now all you see a small structure it WAS a hunting lodge. Scroll through the maps, start I think in 1997 and it goes up 2007. The last map shows it falling into the water. Today 2011 I can tell you it doesn't exist.

flatsixes

03-17-11, 12:49 PM

You on Tangier Island, Rockstar?
God bless you, man.
I mean it.

Rockstar

03-17-11, 12:53 PM

Yep. My wife and I are "come heres" arrived last year. Somehow we found ourselves running the Tangier History Museum and Interpretive Cultural Center. We are hoping to bring public attention to the situation here and get something done. We would like to buy a home here but if we can't get a seawall we might find ourselves living on the Eastern Shore.

May Yehovah Elohim Bless you too!

UnderseaLcpl

03-17-11, 01:03 PM

Funding for these sorts of projects are such a small piece of the pie. It's clear that this isn't about budget concerns - it's pure politics.

It seems we share some opinions. Just replace "funding" with "executives" and you pretty much have one of the points of my argument against regulating corporate salaries.:DL

However, this EPA funding business is not just politics, though they indubitably play a large part. What GR was trying to say and that probably didn't come across clearly was that the EPA often grossly misuses the funds allocated to them and their regulations are often unnecessary and/or damaging to the economy. I can understand his obvious frustration; he is trying to run a business in a system where it seems like the government is out to control everything you do, charges you for doing so, and then penalizes you if you fail to follow rules so complicated that no human could possibly comprehend all of them. That's in addition to the normal penalties for profitability and creating employment opportunities, if you ever get that far.

Notwithstanding the fact that the EPA's budget for FY2011 is over 10 billion dollars in capital that could be used to do something productive but is instead largely wasted (I'll cover that in a moment), you're not taking into account the unintended consequences that accompany such regulation. As I said, the rules are so complicated that nobody understands them, including the EPA, which is why they sometimes have regulations that are mutually exclusive or otherwise conflict each other. I'll spare you the lengthy description of the three big ones in the railroad industry unless someone really wants to hear them. But think about it - even one incidence of conflicting regs in one industry is an obvious sign that the rules are overly complex. Now think about it from the perspective of a small business owner. You've put everything you have into your venture, and assumed a comparitively large amount of debt in doing so. Now you have to hire a specialist (read: expensive)just to avoid being fined out of existence or jailed outright, and even then you are not immune because the regs are changing or some agent decides to enforce some obscure one your specialist missed or misinterpreted.

Though most of this post is intended to address everyone, I want the people who are quick to assume that the state is inherently good or moral or at least better than big business to consider the above and what I am about to say carefully. In a system that is so complex that specialists are needed to navigate it and failure to comply results in hefty penalties, who do you think is going to consistently come out on top, or even endure? I'll give you a hint: It's not the small businesses we all love because it's politically "A-OK":up:. They're practically DOA, even if they arrive to begin with. Many more prospective small businesspeople just say "to hell with it" and don't even bother trying. Don't believe me? Try filing an environmental impact statement sometime if you can come up with the capital. Call me back in a few years when you get the results and let me know how it worked out.

I doubt anyone here needs the point to be spelled out for them but I'll do it anyway for the sake of completeness. Those greedy big businesses you love to hate and the rich investors that back them - you eliminated a major part of their problems, namely competition from small business. And should you decide to change the regulations to reign them in, they'll simply lobby to have the regulations changed to exclude more prospective competitors, or they'll go somewhere else. Pretty much everything the left has to complain about when it comes to big business is their own damn fault for thinking that the government was an effective agency for implementing their desired results.

Alright, that part I asked some to carefully consider is now over, but it segues nicely into my next point, which is the effectiveness of the EPA itself. The only parts of the moniker "Environmental Protection Agency" that are true is that it is indeed and agency and it has something to do with the environment.

I can understand why people would think that they need some kind of protection from the ravages of brutal corporate exploitation of the environment. I, too, was raised on a public school diet with a healthy serving of environmental awareness. For years I thought that the EPA and the active efforts of young people like myself were necessary to combat the grevious harms inflicted on our planet by soulless corporations that cared only about profit. Ironically, I discovered that it is the fact that corporations care only about profit that makes them good for the environment. Sure, they'll try to cut corners where they can, but they also have to sell a product. If they cause some major disaster or are caught engaging in practices that are actively destructive, they have a PR nightmare on their hands, not to mention the catastrophic results their activities have on sales and investment. In a world where quarterly results can mean the difference between employment and unemployment, you can be damn sure that corporations are keeping a close eye on anything that might negatively affect their image. Yes, from time to time they screw up, but they pay for it when they do, and are forced to adopt new practices. Sometimes, they pay for it so heavily that they cease to exist. Problem solved.

The EPA, on the other hand, does not pay for its mistakes. On the contrary, it requests more funding to prevent such incidents from occuring in the future. I can't make the point that the EPA hasn't ever actually prevented a disaster because we'd never know about it if they did, (though given their record I'm sure they would trumpet it in the media) but I can certainly make the point that they have allowed entirely too many environmental disasters to occur for the price we are paying. I could also make the point that the environmental impact of industries capable of making an impact has simply shifted elsewhere, but why bother when we can boil it down further?

The EPA is a reactive entity, as is any government agency. It only exists because people got pissed off enough about the environment to make the issue political, and even then, it took years to effect. It is not driven by profit and it is not accountable for its failures because the political motivation to keep it around remains. It lives and dies on the effectiveness of its cause, not results. Business, on the other hand, has to be proactive if it is to survive, save where it gets the opportunity to co-opt the state to mandate its existence, directly or indirectly.

If you really look at what the EPA is, and the system it is built upon, the mountains of regulations and non-corresponding number of environmental accidents that were not prevented should be telling. To be fair, EPA initiatives have probably helped increase environmental awareness to the point where the private sector must acknowledge that they are going to have to deal with it if they want to sell products and avoid negative attention. Credit where credit is due. But do we really need to spend ten billion dollars per year on an agency whose primary goal has largely been accomplished? Not unless they can convince you that they still have an essential role to play.

GoldenRivet

03-17-11, 01:11 PM

I also think it is interesting that this $50 billion is but a drop in the bucket compared to the total budget, and that nearly all of those cuts are from the welfare and heath sectors. The 24% of the US budget that goes to defense spending remains largely untouched. This seems far more ideological, and far less practical. I think that Platapus' point stands.

Im not disagreeing with Platapus.

Im only stating the fact that both parties are releasing these insanely small budget cut figures.

What we are basically illustrating right here in this very thread is that Americans in general really want to cut the budget, trim the fat and try to "right the ship" economically speaking

BUT...

nobody wants to be the one to cinch that belt up. Nobody wants their little baby pet project to be the one getting cut or getting the axe altogether. They want everyone else to be the ones to suffer.

the left and the right both have their different ideas of what to cut and none of it is enough. and even if it were the right number they cannot agree on ANYTHING.

and Joe American is reading the morning news saying to himself "WOW!!! they can really cut $50B from the budget? thats great news!!" but only because they are too stupid to realize that $50B is CHUMP CHANGE... with the numbers we are talking about that is "walkin' around money."

WE are our own worst enemy. None of us can agree on ANYTHING and in the meantime the ship continues to sink.:nope:

and next on the congressional agenda? this useless waste of space... This pile of stinking trash that is our United States Congress... whats next for them? ---- to pass whatever budget bill they can to avoid a shut down of the government* no matter how crappy or nonsensical the budget might be they will pass it in there at the last second just for the sake of passing something - On saint Patricks day - while you're not looking!. and this is the process that is going to break the back of this country.

Bicker

Argue

fuss

complain

reach the deadline and pass something because something is theoretically better than nothing.

rinse, wash, repeat - the same cycle next year... until the federal deficit becomes a number so large that it has to be expressed in scientific notation :stare:

The reason there are so many disagreements on fundamental policy issues is that the Government has too many irons in the fire... they have their hands on SO MANY private issues that it cant be kept up with. the budget is stretched so thin to so many different directions and there are so many special interests tied up in this whole mess that these politicians are trying to make everyone happy and THEY CANT!

Armistead

03-17-11, 01:31 PM

Our lives are overly regulated by these EPA a-holes

They shut down a local construction site for a whole day because they had the wrong style of gas cans for christs sake.

The gas can the EPA recommends is a pure POS and has resulted in me accidentally dumping at least a half gallon per fill up into the local lake.

In most cases- I think the morons at the EPA cause more harm than good.

And face it... Virtually every aspect of your life is regulated by these turds. These sub-human pieces of trash mandate everything from the type of light bulbs you buy to the type of gas cans you can store fuel in within your own GD garage.

If we don't strike back they WILL regulate us right into extinction.

The problem is proper regulation. Running a paint contracting business, I'm set up as a small quanity generator of haz. waste. The cost, paperwork, visits and fines for writing a label wrong is amazing. I refused to dump 1000's of gallons of chemical on the ground, so guess who the EPA only checks on...guys like me that signed up to do it right. Meanwhile, 100's of illegal mexicans dump tons of chemicals on the ground, backyards, dumpsters, sinks, etc....never bother them.

With government it's either too much or too little.

Read a story not long ago in Alaska where the water cleaning plant is, they applied for federal funds like all. They needed to reline or something. The problem was their water wasn't dirty enough by standards. In order to get the funds they were required to lessen standards to make the water dirty.
They did and were approved.

mookiemookie

03-17-11, 01:32 PM

I can understand why people would think that they need some kind of protection from the ravages of brutal corporate exploitation of the environment. I, too, was raised on a public school diet with a healthy serving of environmental awareness. For years I thought that the EPA and the active efforts of young people like myself were necessary to combat the grevious harms inflicted on our planet by soulless corporations that cared only about profit. Ironically, I discovered that it is the fact that corporations care only about profit that makes them good for the environment. Sure, they'll try to cut corners where they can, but they also have to sell a product. If they cause some major disaster or are caught engaging in practices that are actively destructive, they have a PR nightmare on their hands, not to mention the catastrophic results their activities have on sales and investment. In a world where quarterly results can mean the difference between employment and unemployment, you can be damn sure that corporations are keeping a close eye on anything that might negatively affect their image. Yes, from time to time they screw up, but they pay for it when they do, and are forced to adopt new practices. Sometimes, they pay for it so heavily that they cease to exist. Problem solved.

I believe that this is where theoretical libertarianism fails in the face of the real world. How can your market based solution act in the face of untracable pollution? How do consumers know what percentage of smog is due to which oil refinery or petrochemical plant?

Let's take a look at some scenes from China, where environmental regulations are lax to non-existant:

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/pollution.jpg

http://www.icis.com/blogs/asian-chemical-connections/image.jpg

http://samhoffmann.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/deadfish.jpg

Platapus

03-17-11, 01:39 PM

nobody wants to be the one to cinch that belt up. Nobody wants their little baby pet project to be the one getting cut or getting the axe altogether. They want everyone else to be the ones to suffer.

the left and the right both have their different ideas of what to cut and none of it is enough. and even if it were the right number they cannot agree on ANYTHING.

I can't argue with that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxp7fkUMf_0&feature=related

Armistead

03-17-11, 02:24 PM

mookiemookie

03-17-11, 03:07 PM

Course it's places like this our corporations go to to make big money.

Proving that if given the chance, they'll put profits above all else. Their shareholders demand nothing less.

I don't want to hold the EPA up as a model bureaucracy, because a lot of what they do is red tape and BS, but to say that means that the goal of imposing regulations to protect our environment is foolish is wrong.

GoldenRivet

03-17-11, 03:10 PM

i dont think anyone would say regulating the care for our environment is foolish.

i would think that a fair amount of the regulation is "trivial" though

edit:

what i mean by trivial and by my previous comments is simple:

obviously you dont want a construction company storing gasoline in one of these

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zmOodflj2Gs/R_FnFmS6PvI/AAAAAAAAAAo/3G2p7_j2jjI/S220/rusty-drum.gif
but im talking about shutting down the construction of a school for an entire day because they had these

http://www.trekhouston.org/Portals/0/reDesign/gasCan.gif
instead of these

http://www.blitzusa.com/products/fuel/Containment/enviroflo/80010%202+%20Enviro-FloGas.jpg

trivial

mookiemookie

03-17-11, 03:20 PM

trivial

Indeed. They should be worrying about major air and water polluters instead of Joe Sixpack filling up his lawnmower. I will agree with you there.

GoldenRivet

03-17-11, 03:27 PM

Indeed. They should be worrying about major air and water polluters instead of Joe Sixpack filling up his lawnmower. I will agree with you there.

praise the lord and pass the ammunition. thats exactly right. Regulate the companies that produce tons of chemicals per week... but leave joe sixpack alone... we are in dire straits when joe cannot go to the corner store and buy a gas can that doesnt require a 3 page instruction manual.

mookie, run for congress with me, we might be able to get this country through the storm. :har:

Ducimus

03-17-11, 03:56 PM

Heh, I can see it now.. the future of America (http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/), as dictated by the corporate purchased Grand Ole Party.

Pesky EPA obviously needs to go if it cuts into the bottom line. Not making enough profit. Big Corporate need MORE!!!! :shifty:

I have a sneaky suspicion that when China finally catch's up with modern enviromental standards (if ever), the corporate fat cats won't outsource there so much.

flatsixes

03-17-11, 05:30 PM

The pictures are terrible. Too bad the Chinese government can't regulate its state-managed corporations as well as it does the Internet and Google.

nikimcbee

03-17-11, 06:30 PM

praise the lord and pass the ammunition. thats exactly right. Regulate the companies that produce tons of chemicals per week... but leave joe sixpack alone... we are in dire straits when joe cannot go to the corner store and buy a gas can that doesnt require a 3 page instruction manual.

mookie, run for congress with me, we might be able to get this country through the storm. :har:

Sweet jeebus, the world really is coming to an end. Mookie must be playing with GB gold coins again.:haha:

Tribesman

03-18-11, 03:42 AM

@Golden rivet
So I was not quite correct, it isn't your lack of ability which causes you to spill gas, it was you making a deliberate choice to remove the spout from the can which caused spills.
with the old style gas cans that the government didnt have their hands all over
Sorry, but you are in fantasy land, the old style cans also had the governments hands all over them.
NO.. i don't think it makes a hell of a lot of difference what sort of gas can a construction company uses to fuel up their bulldozers and chain saws and weed eaters.
So you think companies shouldn't have any regulation when it comes to the storage of dangerous chemicals.
That isn't a very sensible idea is it, it fact it would be best described as a really dumb idea.
and i especially dont think the government should have its say on every little thing people can or cannot go to the store and buy.

Yes, its really bad that the government regulates safety standards for petrol cans, petrol is nice and can in no way be dangerous. It is really bad that they should even go to such a wasteful process of having two sets of regulations for petrol cans, that is realy silly, can't they see that commercial and domestic are really the same and petrol is the same so there should only be one rule concerning storage of the chemical and any old can will do as when it comes down to it as petrol is a liquid just like water .

GoldenRivet

03-18-11, 07:38 AM

ugh - putting the troll food away now

Tribesman

03-18-11, 08:24 AM

GoldenRivet

03-18-11, 08:56 AM

Face it GR your points don't stand up at all.
Its funny that you should make a lame attempt at flaming when your arguements have no merit.
Come to think of it that is simply you acting like a troll isn't it:yeah:

this has become - repeatedly on your end - less about the merits of a discussion and more about personally attacking others - and i wont continue such a childish debate anymore.

repeatedly for this very reason, of abusive - off topic personal attacks - i have added you to my ignore list.

and repeatedly, at the fault of my willingness to give you the benefit of the doubt - i have removed you from that ignore list after the passage of a period of time.

i think that anyone here would agree with me that you have twice now in this very thread - dodged legitimate discussion of the issue at hand in favor of striking at me personally.

i stated my opinion that - the EPA - while a critical part of our ability to protect our environment - DOES have some pretty trivial and nonsensical regulations.

I simply used the gas can argument to illustrate the point that when we are down to regulating the style of pour spouts on a 2 - 5 gallon gas can for filling up boat motors, weed eaters and lawn mowers that things have gotten out of hand, and i think most reasonable people would agree with that statement.

YOU on the other hand have ignored all other segments of the discussion and went directly onto the offensive in blaming my "ability" to pour gasoline or my "decision" to remove the cheap POS filler neck in order to facilitate easier pouring rather than use the leaky, slow flow, cheaply constructed filler neck that comes with the thing.

I will offer you no more back and forth over this as you cannot discuss it without striking at the person posting the comments.

one day Tribesman you might live in a world where your opinion is the only one... but until then, grow the **** up

VipertheSniper

03-18-11, 09:00 AM

this has become - repeatedly on your end - less about the merits of a discussion and more about personally attacking others - and i wont continue such a childish debate anymore.

repeatedly for this very reason, of abusive - off topic personal attacks - i have added you to my ignore list.

and repeatedly, at the fault of my willingness to give you the benefit of the doubt - i have removed you from that ignore list after the passage of a period of time.

i think that anyone here would agree with me that you have twice now in this very thread - dodged legitimate discussion of the issue at hand in favor of striking at me personally.

i stated my opinion that - the EPA - while a critical part of our ability to protect our environment - DOES have some pretty trivial and nonsensical regulations.

I simply used the gas can argument to illustrate the point that when we are down to regulating the style of pour spouts on a 2 - 5 gallon gas can for filling up boat motors, weed eaters and lawn mowers that things have gotten out of hand, and i think most reasonable people would agree with that statement.

YOU on the other hand have ignored all other segments of the discussion and went directly onto the offensive in blaming my "ability" to pour gasoline or my "decision" to remove the cheap POS filler neck in order to facilitate easier pouring rather than use the leaky, slow flow, cheaply constructed filler neck that comes with the thing.

I will offer you no more back and forth over this as you cannot discuss it without striking at the person posting the comments.

one day Tribesman you might live in a world where your opinion is the only one... but until then, grow the **** up

Couldn't have said it better and I tried about 10 times and then gave up.

flatsixes

03-18-11, 09:12 AM

I speak Texan, GR, and I appreciate the points you were attempting to put across.

I have a very good understanding of the regulatory process at the state and federal level and, believe me, it's uglier than most can imagine. The legislatures grant unelected authorities broad powers and discretion to promulgate regulations governing businesses and activities within their realm of oversight. True, the process is ostensibly open - notice of regulatory proceedings are published and public comment solicited. In practice, however, only those with a direct stake in the outcome participate: The Pro and the Anti. Common sense is generally absent until after the fact when the impact of the regulations are discovered. When was the last time you check the Federal Register (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/fr/)? Your state register? You can't say you weren't warned.

Of course,the regulators are not elected, but appointed by those whom we elect. The regulators are (for the most part) reasonable persons, but to whom do they answer to for their jobs? You? Hardly. They answer to those who appointed them. Consequently, my friends, the smart guys - the winners- spend their time and money on the legislators, not the regulators. Moreover, the regulatory process is a huge lumbering dinosaur, and once the regulations are in place it takes years over effort to get them changed (or if you prefer, fixed). Enacting legislation (believe it or not) is much simpler, but carries with it the risk of amendments and unintended consequences, 99% of which wind up being even worse than the devil you were trying to exorcise in the first place.

All this leads me to a single conclusion: We're done for, except, perhaps, in Texas. :salute:

Tribesman

03-18-11, 09:32 AM

It is so funny that GR has gone off in a huff.
I simply used the gas can argument to illustrate the point
That was the problem, the gas can does not illustrate the point.
Of all the silly regulations he could have gone to town on he chose one that actually makes sense. Besides which fuel cans have been regulated since there were fuel cans to regulate
If people were not such idiots the government wouldn't have to idiot proof gas cans.

one day Tribesman you might live in a world where your opinion is the only one... but until then, grow the **** up
That is funny when he is complaining about something which is regulated every where in the world where there are regulations, so it is part of a worldwide opinion.
So perhaps he should grow the **** up and learn to live with safety devices on potentially dangerous chemicals, after all most people shouldn't have much of a problem working a child proof switch on a gas can

flatsixes

03-18-11, 09:44 AM

Point. Set. Match. (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/02/13/108524/ban-on-lead-in-toys-hits-atv-motorbike.html)

"While the goal is admirable, it is important to inject a little common sense into the process," said Tester, the sponsor of the Senate bill to exempt ATVs and motorbikes from the ban. "I want our kids and grandkids to be safe and protected from harmful toys, but we all know that most kids who are past the teething stage do not chew on their toys."

Tribesman

03-18-11, 09:56 AM

Point. Set. Match. (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/02/13/108524/ban-on-lead-in-toys-hits-atv-motorbike.html)

See how easy it is, a really good example. :up:
Much better than a gripe about sensible legislation, thogh what is funnier is that the gripe started about one type of infraction and moaned about another regulation the use of which design would have resulted in the first infraction anyway as commercial is under very different rules from domestic.

flatsixes

03-18-11, 10:28 AM

Uh... Yeah. Whatever.
:dead:

UnderseaLcpl

03-18-11, 10:39 AM

I believe that this is where theoretical libertarianism fails in the face of the real world. How can your market based solution act in the face of untracable pollution? How do consumers know what percentage of smog is due to which oil refinery or petrochemical plant?
Well, if the "pure" libertarians are to be believed the media and a new class of conscious consumer will browbeat and/or fiscally starve the offenders into taking responsibility for their mess. They make a good case for it but I'm not sure I buy it.

Personally, I see that as an area where the government has an important role to play, provided they are limited to enforcing a reasonable, uniform effluent tax or something. Just as long as they don't have a proactive regulatory mega-bureaucracy or the means to ever build one.

Let's take a look at some scenes from China, where environmental regulations are lax to non-existant:

Yep, that looks pretty nasty. Then again, a lot of developing economies that rely on heavy industry produce scenes like that, regs or no. When you're poor you don't get a choice.

What I see in these scenes is a very good reason to create a more business-friendly environment in the US. We used to have a manufacturing economy, but we don't now because nobody wants to buy our expensive stuff. Even if we cut most of the environmental regs out, we still wouldn't be building factories. Drive enough business away, though, and the standard of living in this country might just drop low enough that we could go back to those days.

August

03-18-11, 11:20 AM

Let's take a look at some scenes from China, where environmental regulations are lax to non-existant:

One point about this. They may have lax or non-existent environmental regulations but embarrassing the government (like when such pictures are posted) can result in execution for the polluter. That's about the toughest government "regulation" I've ever heard of.

Tribesman

03-18-11, 01:35 PM

Uh... Yeah. Whatever.

Well you did provide a good example of applying legislation where it shouildn't be applied rather than a silly and contradictory set of examples.
In case you didn't notice GRs first gripe was unrelated to the issue he was moaning about and what he was moaning about isn't really related to the government agency he wants to moan about.
The EPA closure complaint was about Occupational Health and Safety and his issue with the child proof container is down to the Consumer Protection Agency.
It is why his posts made no sense as safety in the workplace is a very important function of the government as ultimately they pick up the bill when things go wrong, and the CPA legislation is a result of the public lobbying politicians to protect children.
In short his arguement amounted to encouraging government waste and getting politicians to ignore the electorate.

flatsixes

03-18-11, 02:13 PM

Once there were two guys, Al and Bob, who set themselves on fire by pouring gas into a lawn mower while smoking cigars. Now, both Al and Bob lived in Census Tract 13 of Fairfax County, Virginia. Conservative estimates indicate that there are at least 2 Als and 2 Bobs in every Census Tract. There are 257 Census Tracts in Fairfax County. Consequently, there are likely, at a minimum, 1,028 Als and Bobs in Fairfax County. As there are 95 counties (and 39 independent cities) in Virginia, there are mostly likely 137,752 Als and Bobs in Virginia. Of course, there are 49 other states besides Virginia, so it's safe to assume that there at at the very least 6,887,600 Als and Bobs living in the United States. Moreover, that's just Als and Bobs, once we take into account male names beginning with the other 24 letters of the alphabet, we can estimate that no less than 165,302,400 persons may potentially fall victim to insufficiently regulated gas cans, many of them mere children!!!

And so on....

Tribesman

03-18-11, 02:47 PM

Once there were two guys, Al and Bob, who set themselves on fire by pouring gas into a lawn mower while smoking cigars
Indeed.

we can estimate that no less than 165,302,400 persons may potentially fall victim to insufficiently regulated gas cans
Sufficient regulation in that case is some writing on the can, you will see it on the can just like you can see it at the gas station.

Damn silly regulations eh,
Gasoline is dangerous and extremely flammable. Carefully read all cautions on all sides of gasoline containers. Review and adhere to the following safety precautions when using your portable fuel container.

So ....
GASOLINE- EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE
VAPORS CAN EXPLODE

- KEEP OUT OF REACH OR USE BY CHILDREN!
MANTENGA FUERA DEL ALCANCE DE LOS NINOS!!

- HARMFUL OR FATAL IF SWALLOWED

- NEVER USE GAS TO START A FIRE. May cause severe injury or death.
NUNCA UTILICE GASOLINE PARA INICIAR UNFUEGO. Podria causar lesiones graves o la muerte.

- KEEP AWAY FROM HEAT SOURCES

-AVOID prolonged breathing of vapors.

- DO NOT store in your vehicle or living space

- ALWAYS store and use in a well ventilated area.

- Vapors can be ignited by a spark or flame source many feet away.

- KEEP AWAY from flame, pilot light, stoves, heaters, electrical motors, and other sources of ignition.

- DO NOT siphon gasoline by mouth. Gas is harmful or fatal if swallowed. If swallowed, do not induce vomiting. Call your physician immediately.

- ALWAYS place container on the ground when filling to avoid static electricity ignition.

- KEEP container closed when not in use.

blimey all that writing just because the public can have a tendancy to be very stupid.
Whoda thunk something as harmless as petrol could be dangerous and need regulations.