evading escorts

[kalijav]

I have seen quite a few tutorials on how to attack a ship/convoy, but I haven't found anything regarding the escape :)
If there is, please accept my apologies for the useless post :)

If there is not, how is everyone doing once the attack has been launched and the torpedoes have hit the target ?
I thought about just diving at 150 all stop, silent running. I think it might work, well it actually worked once but I'm not sure if it works often enough to be considered as a valid escape tactic.

I'm wondering, if you are spotted, how do you know if an escort has you on asdic or sonar ? Is hearing them increase their speed the only way to guess that you have been found ? And how can you escape their asdic or sonar once you have been spotted ? I have trouble with this.
And when depth charge are falling on you, what's the best option ? I have used the automated scripts, but it goes ahead flank and i'm sure they can then locate me even more precisely.
Although it is surely better to be detected and stay alive than die :O:

I have spent 2 hours trying to evade 4 escorts with no luck, and I'm trying to figure out what I could have done.

I know it's a lot of questions at once, but if I could get some hints, that would be great :)

Ps: I'm using IRAI from tdw, default settings.

[TheDarkWraith]

sounds like you are new to sub sims in general. Thus I would suggest taming down IRAI by decreasing the warship's difficulty settings to min 75 max 85 for hydrophone and sonar. Once you are familiar with them and evasion tactics then you can increase the difficulty settings. This will help you learn better and avoid frustration.

[Jaguar]

I feel your pain. What drives me nuts is when a destroyer keep circling near, no matter what I do (silent running, chnaging course and depth) the bloody thing just circle around endlessly...

Anyway, what TDW said is what we noobs must do.

[oscar19681]

I have seen quite a few tutorials on how to attack a ship/convoy, but I haven't found anything regarding the escape :)
If there is, please accept my apologies for the useless post :)

If there is not, how is everyone doing once the attack has been launched and the torpedoes have hit the target ?
I thought about just diving at 150 all stop, silent running. I think it might work, well it actually worked once but I'm not sure if it works often enough to be considered as a valid escape tactic.

I'm wondering, if you are spotted, how do you know if an escort has you on asdic or sonar ? Is hearing them increase their speed the only way to guess that you have been found ? And how can you escape their asdic or sonar once you have been spotted ? I have trouble with this.
And when depth charge are falling on you, what's the best option ? I have used the automated scripts, but it goes ahead flank and i'm sure they can then locate me even more precisely.
Although it is surely better to be detected and stay alive than die :O:

I have spent 2 hours trying to evade 4 escorts with no luck, and I'm trying to figure out what I could have done.

I know it's a lot of questions at once, but if I could get some hints, that would be great :)

Ps: I'm using IRAI from tdw, default settings.

Indeed IRAI is a tough nut to crack even for experienced kaleuns.

Here are a couple of tips.

When the torpedo,s have found there targets and the escorsts are still far away enough change course and try to remain as much with the convoy while remaining silent running . If you are within the convoy itself the destoyers are gonna have a hard time makeing depth charge runs since the other ships are in the way.

When you are outside the convoy when you have attacked it try to sneak away from it.

When a destoyer has spotted you on the surface and he,s not to close make a run for it on the surface to put some distance between you an the detroyer. This way you can make some more course and depth changes before he starts throwing the cans sometimes at night attacks he might not see you at all and you can just sneak away on the surface. I would only recommend this at poor vission situations and not a daylight with exellent weather.

When being pinged (asdic) the more frequent the pinging becomes the closer he is. The way to go here is to go deep . say 150 to 180 meters. If you not getting there fast enought increase speed a little bit . If the depthcharges are to close for comfort go deeper but only when the depth charges become a danger. You must keep in mind that you need to have a buffer of about 30 to 40 meters of depth left till max depth to dive to otherwise when they have pinded you down at max depth all you can do is go up.

Also keep changing course depending on where the destoyer is and to present an unpredictable target and try to keep your front or back towards to Destoyers to present a small target for the asdic returns.

If you get caught on periscope depth before an attack and the escort is to close for comfort forget the attack and crash dive , you live to fight another day.
same goes for after the attack nevermind the noise just go to a safe depth and shut down engines of go silent and use the forward momentum and possible the fact you sliding into the depth and change course , this way you can silently change course and depth rapidly without the escort knowing about it it can be a life saver.

[Trevally.]

Yes some good suggestions :up:

Tip for automation -
Only use when depthcharges are causing you damage as the extra speed will show DD where you are.

What they aim to do is - get enough speed to escape damage, then change heading and depth - before engines cut off and you coast away with min noise back to org depth.

[kalijav]

sounds like you are new to sub sims in general. Thus I would suggest taming down IRAI by decreasing the warship's difficulty settings to min 75 max 85 for hydrophone and sonar. Once you are familiar with them and evasion tactics then you can increase the difficulty settings. This will help you learn better and avoid frustration.

Well, I have actually played sh III to IV now and then. I've also played games like 668(i) hunter killer, but it is a totally different game, on this one, you're detected, you're pretty much dead.:O:
But that's true I've never been playing as much as I do at SHV. I like the IRAI because even for me the stock AI is really crap ... no challenge at all. I'd rather die of DS than survive without being chased by the escorts, that's one of the most fun part of the game :p
However, you're probably right, i'm going to try toning the IA down.


Indeed IRAI is a tough nut to crack even for experienced kaleuns.

When being pinged (asdic) the more frequent the pinging becomes the closer he is. The way to go here is to go deep . say 150 to 180 meters. If you not getting there fast enought increase speed a little bit . If the depthcharges are to close for comfort go deeper but only when the depth charges become a danger. You must keep in mind that you need to have a buffer of about 30 to 40 meters of depth left till max depth to dive to otherwise when they have pinded you down at max depth all you can do is go up.

Also keep changing course depending on where the destoyer is and to present an unpredictable target and try to keep your front or back towards to Destoyers to present a small target for the asdic returns.


Right, that's usually what I do, but if I can hear them ping me, does it mean that they have me ? Also, I find it rather hard to know how far the DS are falling, but I guess it's experience.
As for the rear and front, I was wondering that. I didn't know how the position of the sub played on the detection. The stock game seems to be rather simplified if I believe what I've read, I had my doubts. That would be nice to know a bit how the detection stuff really works.

I'm currently playing with the visual indicators of sonar range, and asdic range, are those accurate ? If i'm in the circle/arc, am I sure to be spotted ?

[stoianm]

i never had problem with DDs after i used the ,,wasserbomben'' wich can be found in the stormys sound mod collection.

i try all the time to fire my torpedo as far as posible from an convoy heavy escorted... before my torpedo hit the target i order deept 80 metters , i change course and i order flank speed
after my first torp hit the target i order silent running and i order an speed of 0.8 knots
if the escorts detect me than i do like this:
1) when the escort is start to drop the first dept charges in water my sonar guy will screeam ,,waserbomben'' - this mean bomb in water... each time when an dept charges is drop the navigator annonce me
so first time when i hear ,,waserbomben'' means that the DD is very close to me position and he can not hear me because of all the noise from underwater (dept charges splash and explosion and his engines):
1) i start the cronometer
2) i increase depth with 20 meters
3)i order flank speed
4)i order amid ship
5)i count exactly 45 seconds - after that time usually the last depth charges exploded
6)i order 15 degree to port or staboard (depend of situation)
7)i order sillent running and change speed for 0.8 knots

if the DD still detect me after i repet again the steps 1-7 until i hit 200 meters dept and after that i start to increase until at 80 metters and so one

i play this mouse and cat untill the DD lose my tracks

if i spot an convoy with not so manny escorts... i go close to convoy... i fire my torpedos and i exacape under the convoy to the other side... if DDs spot me than i do my 1-7 steps

now for an situation when i am hunted by HK... (this i learned from TDW - i tryed and works like charm:D)

i watch to see what DD is not moving... that DD is the one who use the asdic and detect my position no mater what i do - and report my position to others DD... i sunk that DD and after that i do my mouse and cat methode with the other until i exacape...

i do this ,,waserbomben'' methode from few weeks and i never had problems with DDs since then

I am using IRAI v30 and i have the defaults settings for it

regards

[kalijav]

thank you for all the tips :)

I will look for that mod, it's indeed nice to know when DS are dropped.

But attacking the DD, hum that's quite risky :p as is running away on surface !
The experiences I had on surface facing DD ended pretty badly :p

But I'll surely try, sometimes there is no other solution. The only problem is that usually after my attacks my tubes are empty, and it takes a while to reload.

I should also shoot further from the convoy, I think, I almost always get as close as possible, so the DD are often right next to me.

[stoianm]

thank you for all the tips :)

I will look for that mod, it's indeed nice to know when DS are dropped.

But attacking the DD, hum that's quite risky :p as is running away on surface !
The experiences I had on surface facing DD ended pretty badly :p

But I'll surely try, sometimes there is no other solution. The only problem is that usually after my attacks my tubes are empty, and it takes a while to reload.

I should also shoot further from the convoy, I think, I almost always get as close as possible, so the DD are often right next to me.
wlk... i attack only that speciaal DD that is not moving... and i succed because he is not moving:DL... and when i attack him i am at periscope depth... i do this only when i am hunted by an HK and in that case i have torp in my tube... in the other cases i only run... i do not attack DDs

[kalijav]

yes, I understood that you weren't on surface, I mixed up my sentence :) I was referring to the run away on surface:hmmm:

[TheDarkWraith]

wlk... i attack only that speciaal DD that is not moving... and i succed because he is not moving:DL... and when i attack him i am at periscope depth... i do this only when i am hunted by an HK and in that case i have torp in my tube... in the other cases i only run... i do not attack DDs

Yes the 'director' is your worst enemy in an HK group. Now if the HK group is large enough it will reassign a new director if you manage to take out the original director. It will keep doing this as long as the HK group is big enough to support it.

[stoianm]

Yes the 'director' is your worst enemy in an HK group. Now if the HK group is large enough it will reassign a new director if you manage to take out the original director. It will keep doing this as long as the HK group is big enough to support it.
:timeout: - evil IRAI

[TheDarkWraith]

:timeout: - evil IRAI

Yes very evil. But HK groups were sub killers and they were very good at it and IRAI models this well :yep:

[stoianm]

Yes very evil. But HK groups were sub killers and they were very good at it and IRAI models this well :yep:
how manny DDs means ,,a group large enough'' - i want to know for how manny times to look after the ,,new director'':D - or this is random:06:

[TheDarkWraith]

how manny DDs means ,,a group large enough'' - i want to know for how manny times to look after the ,,new director'':D - or this is random:06:

I'm away from home so I can't look at my files. If I remember correctly the HK group first assigns a leader, then an escort to protect convoy (to protect the leader and the HK group), then 2 operation plaster escorts, then a director, and I can't remember the rest. The director and 'the rest' are optional and only assigned if there are enough units to cover the assignments before them.

[UBOOT_fan]

In my opinion the AI is a joke in SH5, it looks like the one in SH4. The only real formidable AI I saw was in SH3. My guess is that developers tried to make a game to appeal even to non hardcore simmers, because there is no other explanation. Anyway if you are old to SH series you will have always the feeling that this game is unfinished, unpolished etc.
So if I were you I wouldn't worry too much about evading. Just dive to 40m and throttle max speed to go away from the convoy and then go home to refit.
If you really want a challenge check the modding section, there are some mods where the realism is as good as it gets. Cheers !

[stoianm]

if you read careful his post you will see that he use IRAI - and because of that he has concerns about evading... i know you like vanilla because you think is more immersive than to install mods... but in topic with spoked aboutt AI after IRAI and that has nothing to do with vanilla - so you cand just dive in your game but for sure he must to use some good evasion tactics :yep:
EDIT - i am not old to SH series - i played only sh5 but i think that the game with the all mods made in meantime is a playable game

[UBOOT_fan]

if you read careful his post you will see that he use IRAI - and because of that he has concerns about evading... i know you like vanilla because you think is more immersive than to install mods... but in topic with spoked aboutt AI after IRAI and that has nothing to do with vanilla - so you cand just dive in your game but for sure he must to use some good evasion tactics :yep:
EDIT - i am not old to SH series - i played only sh5 but i think that the game with the all mods made in meantime is a playable game

I DID read carefully what he wrote. I just said some general considerations. If you "have read my post carefully"...I mentioned that, too:O:

[Cpt. Grouch]

I ran into a nasty escort of DDs after I picked up a task force off the british coast. Convoy composition was two transport ships (huge european liners!:arrgh!:) and a couple large cargo ships. I tried to intercept but before I could get the convoy on visual a DD came right out of the fog on top of me.

So I got to have my own little das boot moment there lol. :yeah: Complete with sound effects thanks to stormy's DBSM mod.

I escaped first by conducting an emergency dive, followed by battlestations and silent running. Battlestations is important because it improves overall ship handling, which helps you get out from underneath the destroyer.

So far the most important factor I've found in surviving is keeping the destroyer from bracketting your sub with depth charges. This means you'll have to try to evade using hard turns to port or starboard. Stoiamn's advice about the "waserbomben" is a great way to gauge when to engage those evasive manuevers. Flank speed is OK during the turn because the destroyer can't (or atleast shouldn't) be able to detect you accuratly for its next attack run. This gives you a moment to lose them. Generally they'll lose you if you can get out of the bracket and let them make a few unsussessful passes. The more often they miss, the less likely they'll be to re-aquire you on the next run.

I have a question regarding evasion and attacking also. . .how does one sneak up on a convoy in the fog? I didn't even make a visual and that DD was headed right for me, straight through the fog. This was September 1939.....

I'm not a specialist on the Battle of the Atlantic, but I have studied the subject a little. From what I've read, British escort vessels were woefully inadequate for use against u-boats during the first two years of the war. Many escort vessels had no radar or ASDIC until they were commisioned with them later in the war. I'm pretty sure they didn't have deptch charges that could reach 200m until 1941. Does IRAI accuratly reflect this? Also, does the AI allow us as players to utilize actual U-boat tactics? Because so far every suface attack I've made has ended in failure. :oops: It seems no matter the weather or my current speed, the DDs pick me up and head straight for me.

[stoianm]

I DID read carefully what he wrote.

So if I were you I wouldn't worry too much about evading. Just dive to 40m and throttle max speed to go away from the convoy and then go home to refit.

:D - do not think so:

Install IRAI v30 and try to do that:D - end of topic... i will continue the dialog only after you will try what you said with IRAIv30 installed

[stoianm]

I ran into a nasty escort of DDs after I picked up a task force off the british coast. Convoy composition was two transport ships (huge european liners!:arrgh!:) and a couple large cargo ships. I tried to intercept but before I could get the convoy on visual a DD came right out of the fog on top of me.

So I got to have my own little das boot moment there lol. :yeah: Complete with sound effects thanks to stormy's DBSM mod.

I escaped first by conducting an emergency dive, followed by battlestations and silent running. Battlestations is important because it improves overall ship handling, which helps you get out from underneath the destroyer.

So far the most important factor I've found in surviving is keeping the destroyer from bracketting your sub with depth charges. This means you'll have to try to evade using hard turns to port or starboard. Stoiamn's advice about the "waserbomben" is a great way to gauge when to engage those evasive manuevers. Flank speed is OK during the turn because the destroyer can't (or atleast shouldn't) be able to detect you accuratly for its next attack run. This gives you a moment to lose them. Generally they'll lose you if you can get out of the bracket and let them make a few unsussessful passes. The more often they miss, the less likely they'll be to re-aquire you on the next run.

I have a question regarding evasion and attacking also. . .how does one sneak up on a convoy in the fog? I didn't even make a visual and that DD was headed right for me, straight through the fog. This was September 1939.....

I'm not a specialist on the Battle of the Atlantic, but I have studied the subject a little. From what I've read, British escort vessels were woefully inadequate for use against u-boats during the first two years of the war. Many escort vessels had no radar or ASDIC until they were commisioned with them later in the war. I'm pretty sure they didn't have deptch charges that could reach 200m until 1941. Does IRAI accuratly reflect this? Also, does the AI allow us as players to utilize actual U-boat tactics? Because so far every suface attack I've made has ended in failure. :oops: It seems no matter the weather or my current speed, the DDs pick me up and head straight for me.

When i have fog days i try to hunt by hydro only: i use for that the ,,4 bearings methode,, and i know that makman (if i am not wrong) made an movie about that... search of these on the forum and if you not can find tell me and i will search for you

I have IRAI v30 installed and i must to prepare my attack very well to not have problems .. so in my opinion IRAI is the brain of sh5 - and yes i use uboat tactics that i read on the net and it is working

about the surfaces attacks i do not plane my attacks at surface but i know Magnum like very much the surface attack in night time... maybe he can give you some trics

btw... what you means by battlestations? - you mean that you send all crew to battlestation in the time you are doing an attack or an evasion?

[TheDarkWraith]

I'm not a specialist on the Battle of the Atlantic, but I have studied the subject a little. From what I've read, British escort vessels were woefully inadequate for use against u-boats during the first two years of the war. Many escort vessels had no radar or ASDIC until they were commisioned with them later in the war. I'm pretty sure they didn't have deptch charges that could reach 200m until 1941. Does IRAI accuratly reflect this? Also, does the AI allow us as players to utilize actual U-boat tactics? Because so far every suface attack I've made has ended in failure. :oops: It seems no matter the weather or my current speed, the DDs pick me up and head straight for me.

IRAI currently is a compromise because of the GR2 limitation. The compromise is that it's set to be for the later years of the war. I had to do this so that in the later years of the war the AI is difficult. Once the GR2 limitation is broken and I can clone the sensors for the ships I can make dumbed down versions of those sensors for the earlier war years. I can also then clone the DCs so that their depth range is shallower in the earlier years. Until we can break the GR2 limitation I made the mod the best that I could.

[Cpt. Grouch]

When i have fog days i try to hunt by hydro only: i use for that the ,,4 bearings methode,, and i know that makman (if i am not wrong) made an movie about that... search of these on the forum and if you not can find tell me and i will search for you

I will search, now that I know what to look for. I'm getting better at researching the forums so I'll give it a second shot. :DL The task force I found using hydrophones also, but I was having trouble keeping up their pace, so I surfaced to close the distance.

I have IRAI v30 installed and i must to prepare my attack very well to not have problems .. so in my opinion IRAI is the brain of sh5 - and yes i use uboat tactics that i read on the net and it is working

Awesome! Thats what I was hoping for! Nothing more fun than applying what you've learned.

about the surfaces attacks i do not plane my attacks at surface but i know Magnum like very much the surface attack in night time... maybe he can give you some trics

I'll have to bug him about that.

btw... what you means by battlestations? - you mean that you send all crew to battlestation in the time you are doing an attack or an evasion?

I usually try to activate battle stations prior to the attack, usually once I've made contact. That way its already active incase of emergency (such as the one I had). I keep it running throughout evasions unless my damages require me to devote the crew to repairs rather than their stations. In the attack I described, I had not yet made the call to battlestations because I hadn't yet made a visual contact, so I called it on the way down during my emergency dive.


Responded to comments/suggestions/questions in green, thanks for the feedback!

[Cpt. Grouch]

IRAI currently is a compromise because of the GR2 limitation. The compromise is that it's set to be for the later years of the war. I had to do this so that in the later years of the war the AI is difficult. Once the GR2 limitation is broken and I can clone the sensors for the ships I can make dumbed down versions of those sensors for the earlier war years. I can also then clone the DCs so that their depth range is shallower in the earlier years. Until we can break the GR2 limitation I made the mod the best that I could.

And its a damn fine mod too. I agree with the majority here, the new AI really brings the world to life. I had a feeling thats where you were going about the limitations to the programming, but I just wanted to ask for clarification.