Modeling "Project Habakkuk". Could the Germans have beaten such a vessel?

[MarineWolf]

Greetings, everyone. :salute: I happen to be an avid model builder and one of my favorite aspects of model building is "What If's". These are known as the prototypes, Could have been's, Should have been's, etc., but weren't. :(
For the last 2 years, I have been slowly, but steadily, building a 1/700 scale model of the proposed Project Habakkuk ice aircraft carrier.
Project Habakkuk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Habakkuk)
My current progress is what you see here below: V
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/icyhusky/habbakukmodel/DSC03826.jpg

Although my topic here is not solely about my model (Though I will gladly answer any questions that people may have.), I wanted to instead ask the following: If WWII had turned out differently and the war had continued and a real Habakkuk ship had been built, Then how would the Germans have counter-attacked such a vessel? What methods and weapons do you think they would have employed, if any? IMO, I hardly think the Germans would have stood any chance of sinking such a huge vessel. Habakkuk was designed with 40 foot thick hull made with a material known as pykrete.
Pykrete - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pykrete)
Secondly, I suspect the hull would have been compartmented as shown in the following diagram from the "Habakkuk" article by William J. Wallace in Vol. 5, Num. 18 of Warship magazine. 1981, Pages 80-85.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/icyhusky/habbakukmodel/scan-2.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

I don't really see a way to destroying this thing short of an A-Bomb or sustained gunfire from a major surface combatant.

But I think the main danger of such a ship would be in its refrigeration system, lose too much of it (say to shock damage from bombs or torpedoes) and the ship melts away.

[MarineWolf]

But I think the main danger of such a ship would be in its refrigeration system, lose too much of it (say to shock damage from bombs or torpedoes) and the ship melts away.

Perhaps. But I suspect the Habakkuk would've had dozens of refrigerating plants/systems scattered throughout the ship to help keep the pykrete cold. There would've been dozens, if not hundreds, of miles worth of pipe ductwork throughout the hull that forced cold air would have flowed through to help keep the pykrete cold.
Here's another diagram from an article by William J. Wallace that shows the proposed ductwork and cooling system. (Bottom of picture)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/icyhusky/habbakukmodel/scan0001.jpg

[Randomizer]

If WWII had turned out differently and the war had continued and a real Habakkuk ship had been built, Then how would the Germans have counter-attacked such a vessel?
That is a lot of if's, none of which have any context.

Habukkuk could not cause the defeat of Germany so attacking it would be a waste of resources.

With the unsinkable aircraft carriers of the UK, Iceland and Newfoundland and the fleet of escort carriers costing a fraction of Habakkuk to fill any gaps, the entire concept borders on farce and always has.

A classic case of a bad idea given life by an elequent spokesman, these days it would involve endless PowerPoint presentations and talking heads on Fox. It's not the first occasion where time and resources have been expended on an impractical pipe dream and is unlikely to be the last.

Nice model though.

[Gargamel]

That is a lot of if's, none of which have any context.

Habukkuk could not cause the defeat of Germany so attacking it would be a waste of resources.

With the unsinkable aircraft carriers of the UK, Iceland and Newfoundland and the fleet of escort carriers costing a fraction of Habakkuk to fill any gaps, the entire concept borders on farce and always has.

A classic case of a bad idea given life by an elequent spokesman, these days it would involve endless PowerPoint presentations and talking heads on Fox. It's not the first occasion where time and resources have been expended on an impractical pipe dream and is unlikely to be the last.

Nice model though.

Yes, nice model.

But he's playing "what if", and I know some of you hate it, and some love it. I for one love it, since it allows thinking outside the box.

So let's say it does get built. And in '43 (project was proposed and greenlit way earlier FWIW).

As mentioned, you can't destroy it with normal munitions, short of setting charges inside the structure. It'll float no matter how much water you pump into it, unless the amount of metal placed on it caused it to be more dense than water, but even then...

Even if the redundant cooling systems were taken out, it would still be operational for at least a few days (weather dependent), and still floating for at least a few weeks after that.

Tactically, I can see the usage of such a massive platform. The ability to fly heavy and medium bombers, not to mention the hordes of fighters, from a mobile platform, would be huge.

But strategically, in WWII, I don't see it being relevant in the European Theatre. The British Isles were basically just a bigger version of this thing. There were few, if any, targets that this would have a major advantage over land based bombers.

Now in the pacific theatre, it's just the opposite. I can see this being a major advantage to the advancing war front. But there the problem lies in keeping it cold enough. You would only be able to attack northern Japan, if at all.

[Randomizer]

The only way Habakkuk made any sense was if there was no such thing as long range aircraft that could be adapted to conduct maritime patrols.

Since aircraft with Atlantic ranges and actually pre-dated the Habakkuk concept, the "what if" game only works if you create some fictional Harry Turtledovian world that lacked Liberators, Sunderlands, Lancasters, Flying Fortresses, Catalinas and even Kondors along the ability to build such planes.

You may as well throw in magic beans and space aliens since they too are outside any historical box.

Speculation is fine but to be taken seriously it should be rooted in the realm of technical and political realities, otherwise it is a joke.

[TLAM Strike]

I could see this becoming more useful after the war. Normal carriers had a hard time operating twin engine aircraft at this time. Twin or more engine aircraft were the only aircraft that could carry early model Atomic Bombs. A Habakkuk as a strategic weapons platform for use against the Soviets would be interesting. I could see it carrying a group of P-2 Neptune or AJ Savage nuclear bombers along with the jet fighters needed to escort them, some AF Guardian ASW aircraft, plus maybe a couple dozen Regulus missiles.

[Oberon]

You couldn't sink it, that's for certain, could you damage the runways though? I'm thinking a flight of Condors perhaps, but it would be a costly mission to do frequently because it would be fairly easy to repair the runways I'd wager.

It would be a rather extreme vessel, perhaps leading to super-convoys around it? I mean, you could take bombers off from that thing, uboats wouldn't stand a chance.

[TLAM Strike]

You couldn't sink it, that's for certain, could you damage the runways though? Yea, wonder what Napalm or its WWII equivalent would do to a ship like that.

I'm thinking a flight of Condors perhaps, but it would be a costly mission to do frequently because it would be fairly easy to repair the runways I'd wager. Plus it would be costly because that ship could carry the entire RAF aboard. :O:

[Oberon]

Yea, wonder what Napalm or its WWII equivalent would do to a ship like that.

Plus it would be costly because that ship could carry the entire RAF aboard. :O:

The USS Merrimack could carry the entire RAF on board it...

Oh, you mean the RAF of WWII not todays RAF! :damn:

[TLAM Strike]

The USS Merrimack could carry the entire RAF on board it...
http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/980/merrimackposterwu8.jpg

[Oberon]

:har::har::har::har::har::har::har::yeah:

That's brilliant!! :har:

[TLAM Strike]

I found this (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=239224) while doing research for a assignment for college... :haha:

[Gargamel]

Yea, wonder what Napalm or its WWII equivalent would do to a ship like that.



Wonder if it would actually help the ship.....

I would assume some version of a zamboni would be standard issue on there.





I found this (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=239224) while doing research for a assignment for college... :haha:

Very odd..... LOL

I think it would have application today though. Fish Factory ship, Research platform, drilling rig. Anything that needs a large area with a stable base. Resort?

[Von Hilde]

the Germans already had the bomb and cruise missile before the end of the war, and were working on the V3 rocket to deliver nukes to NY. If that ship were built and the Germans were on the offensive it would have been a slow easy target and we would all be able to speek German as soon as we rebuilt the east coast. More than likely the west coast people would be speeking Japaneas, as Hitler had already sent the technology to Japan and a fleet of Giant IJ subs were ready to deliver

[FIREWALL]

the Germans already had the bomb and cruise missile before the end of the war, and were working on the V3 rocket to deliver nukes to NY. If that ship were built and the Germans were on the offensive it would have been a slow easy target and we would all be able to speek German as soon as we rebuilt the east coast. More than likely the west coast people would be speeking Japaneas, as Hitler had already sent the technology to Japan and a fleet of Giant IJ subs were ready to deliver

Stay awake in your history class. :O: The Germans weren't even close to haveing an A-Bomb.

Hell ... The Japs were closer than the Germans.

[TLAM Strike]

Stay awake in your history class. :O: The Germans weren't even close to haveing an A-Bomb.

Hell ... The Japs were closer than the Germans.

Not only that but the V3 was not a rocket but a big gun to bombard Southern England with. Its the gun that JFK's older brother died trying to bomb. :salute: