Is God the good guy?

[Dowly]

Found this video interesting, don't believe in God myself, but for those who do believe in God or other higher power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzuTtA_Coiw

Discuss.

[Oberon]

You should read The Salvation War and Pantheocide.

[Platapus]

Good point, how come the devil does not have a book of his own?

[Dowly]

Another video from him, asking why believers praise good things as God's making and bad things as "God works in mysterious ways":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3ZvosMFhDU


You should read The Salvation War and Pantheocide.

Googled it, sounds interesting. Will try and have a look at it when I can, thanks. :up:

[Growler]

Yeah. Good stuff is a blessing, but bad stuff is, at best, "an opportunity god uses to teach us things."

That makes sense - His greatest creation has fallen from glory, so he just allows them to die by the bucketload to teach the others. Makes sense to me.

[Oberon]

My own opinion is that there is no such thing as the Devil, but it is a need by humanity to blame everything that goes wrong on something. God? Well, something started the Big Bang off, probably the collapse of the universe before us, but then what started that one? Something sparked it all off somewhere, what? Well, I don't have the answer there. I do feel that there is a level of existence beyond which we can comprehend, that is to do with the soul of all creatures...the giant atom perhaps as George Carlin put it. We come from it, we walk this earth and then we go back to it, call it heaven, call it reincarnation, call it whatever you want...many will call it a load of rubbish but that's ok too. :haha:

Of course, there's always the chance I'm wrong, heck, there's the chance we're all wrong and as such we are all doomed to suffer in the hellfires of eternity...although to some of us on this planet, I suspect that the hellfires of eternity would be a welcome respite to the hell that already exists on this planet...because to be honest with you, we are far, far, far better at creating hell than Lucifer will ever be.

[kiwi_2005]

The devil was once a high-ranking angel who was originally perfect in all his ways. At some point in the past, he was overcome with pride and instigated a large rebellion against God. The Lord reacted by kicking the devil out of Heaven. It was such an uneven match that Jesus described Satan as falling from heaven as lightning (Luke 10:18).

The Bible doesn't really say much about Lucifer. The Islamic religeon explains the devil better, I watched a youtube vid lol, about the devil the uploader a Muslim explained the devil to a T.

In short - Lucifer the devil was the bringer of light one of Gods divine angels. He lost the plot when he wanted to be higher than God. A war erupted in Heaven between Satan and his angels that followed him and Jesus and his angels that stood by God. Like Man the angels also have free will they can turn against God anytime.

quote
Lucifer was the Anointed Cherub. Anointed means to be set apart for Gods Divine purpose. It also means "bestowal of Gods divine favor", and "appointment to a special place or function."

God had given Satan a certain amount of power and authority. But he perverted that power. Lucifer wanted to exalt himself above God... rather than "just" being the Angel of God.

[Growler]

My own opinion is that there is no such thing as the Devil, but it is a need by humanity to blame everything that goes wrong on something. God? Well, something started the Big Bang off, probably the collapse of the universe before us, but then what started that one? Something sparked it all off somewhere, what? Well, I don't have the answer there. I do feel that there is a level of existence beyond which we can comprehend, that is to do with the soul of all creatures...the giant atom perhaps as George Carlin put it. We come from it, we walk this earth and then we go back to it, call it heaven, call it reincarnation, call it whatever you want...many will call it a load of rubbish but that's ok too. :haha:

Of course, there's always the chance I'm wrong, heck, there's the chance we're all wrong and as such we are all doomed to suffer in the hellfires of eternity...although to some of us on this planet, I suspect that the hellfires of eternity would be a welcome respite to the hell that already exists on this planet...because to be honest with you, we are far, far, far better at creating hell than Lucifer will ever be.

It's rare that we have to go very far before you'll post something insightful and eloquent; once more, you have proven that.

I know this much: I find the world - indeed, all of creation - so much more amazing now that I've outgrown the model of a Creator's "Intelligent Design". Notice that Heaven represented eternal reward, which would be yours for suffering the abuses of power, where Hell would be your reward for resisting them. Convenient, at least if you're the one with the power. This is the entire principle behind Manifest Destiny, and the Western World's largely done away with that concept. Why not the "religion" behind it? Because it still works to keep the sheep in line - I mean, seriously - Christianity even calls it's followers sheep, for pity's sake.

[Oberon]

It's rare that we have to go very far before you'll post something insightful and eloquent; once more, you have proven that.

:oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:

Thank you. :oops:

[Nicolas]

I'm a believer, yes he is the only true good guy...
Too much spins for such simple stuff.

[Task Force]

That makes 100% scene IMO... ive always thought something similar about god. another reason i cant believe in a god.

EX you tell a kid person A is good, they will not question it and will always believe it.

I mean if the book is true, the guy flooded the earth and gave every living animal that wasn't the lucky 2 a horrible death, drowning in a endless sea. Killed anyone/thing no matter what they did in life. I mean, in his own book he admitted to mass murder.

[Madox58]

Mass Murder is a term Man created and uses as the proclaimer sees fit.
If I had a tank full of Seas Monkeys and dumped it because I was tired of them.
Does that make me a Mass Murderer?
When you get rid of an Ant Hill are you then a Mass Murderer?
I stomp on Spiders when I can.
Have my whole life.
Am I a Serial Killer?

[Task Force]

Yes, but a whole civilization of humans, some just living their life's, some being "sinner" killing them all, every innocent animal, every animal that lives on land. Killing them just because a group didn't believe?

A spider is just a dumb bug, a Sea monkey isn't alive, and a ant hill is full of stupid bugs. Not a planet full of sentient humans just living life. but anyway, you will think of god as you will, I will as i do.

[Growler]

Mass Murder is a term Man created and uses as the proclaimer sees fit.
If I had a tank full of Seas Monkeys and dumped it because I was tired of them.
Does that make me a Mass Murderer?
When you get rid of an Ant Hill are you then a Mass Murderer?
I stomp on Spiders when I can.
Have my whole life.
Am I a Serial Killer?

Sure. What's a title, but a handle by which we hang moral judgement arbitrarily? Stalin was a mass-murderer at the same time Hitler was the savior of the Aryan race. Hirohito was the Son of Heaven at who's command perhaps millions of Chinese were killed, but Roosevelt was the Western Imperialist who sought to deprive Japan of her rightful place in the world by stifling the tools her people needed to survive.

It's all perspective and angle. History accepts that two of those were mass murderers, one a leader exploited by his military, and the last a great president.

[Madox58]

Then your pretty much saying all Soldiers that eliminate Enemy Targets
are Mass Murderers or Serial Killers.

[Growler]

Then your pretty much saying all Soldiers that eliminate Enemy Targets
are Mass Murderers or Serial Killers.

From some else's perspective, that could very well be considered true. That's what I'm saying - that titles are arbitrary. What we call a hero, someone could very well call a mass murderer.

[Madox58]

AH! So it's perspective!
Just what I said.
So God (If he exists) would be outside our perspective in his actions.
And as he is God?
We have no place to judge Him.
We are Ants or Spiders or lower.

[Task Force]

so if we are his "kids" that he supposedly loves, then he can and should kill us as much as he wants at any time? and there's nothing wrong with it?

*so our life's are worthless and we are just his toys he can destroy at any time, and its ok, he can cause as much pain and suffering, and its perfectly fine.

[Task Force]

Then your pretty much saying all Soldiers that eliminate Enemy Targets
are Mass Murderers or Serial Killers.

Yes they are, but legalized killers, if their side wins.

[Feuer Frei!]

Hahaha i found the video quiet funny really.
Questioning the bible is not for us to do.
If, and i say if you are a true believer, why would you find the need to question God's word?
It is only the non-believers that would do that, ofc.
Or, in the case of denominations, change the words of God to suit your own lifestyles and beliefs.
That's why you have different denominations. What gets me is that these so called believers believe in the word of God, they believe in him. Yet they change and modify his words to suit themselves. :nope:
I understand he is trying to question us Christians and make us question ourselves, and to be quiet honest i don't need to question the word of God, nor do i need to answer to all the non-believers out there whether God exists, or whether God is the lesser power and the Devil is the greater power.
He's basically saying that it's a book and how can we believe it.
And it's normal to fall into the old and tired arguement with the Natural Disasters thing, where many people are killed but a few survive.
The old arguement on why God didn't stop the disasters or why he didn't save people.
And on the point of him saying that God put us on this earth to endure suffering, oh dear. I've heard some interesting arguements against Christianity but this one i haven't heard before.
Yes the suffering is endless, it's only going to get worse in fact.
The Bible predicts this.
God didn't create this world to have us suffer, or to kill people in disasters, or to allow the suffering of pain and loss of life.
God created us equal, with a free mind to chose between right and wrong.

[Armistead]

What I don't understand, if God's plan for man was the garden, what happened. God knows all beforehand, so knew Satan would fall, but created him. When he fell, why not destroy him then, place him on another planet, take away his power. What did God do, placed him on earth with all his power and where does he show up...in the garden with Adam and Eve..and then that tree.
The story goes Adam and Eve doomed all mankind, seems they were set up to me. If God's perfect plan was the garden, what does it say if mere man can mess it up. Seems if plan A fails, God goes to plan B, so can we ever trust a plan A?

I just say "I don't know." If God's plan was to doom the mass of us to hell to be tortured forever to have a few in heaven.....not what I would call love. If you go by what each religion says...whoever is wrong result in the mass of us burning alive. The fact is culture and human factors play the role on what most believe. If all the christians in the USA were born in Iran they would be muslims.

The flood, no one righteous was found but Noah and his kids. I imagine there were many other kids...were they that bad they needed drowning?

In the end, all sounds like something man made up.

[Growler]

AH! So it's perspective!
Just what I said.
So God (If he exists) would be outside our perspective in his actions.
And as he is God?
We have no place to judge Him.
We are Ants or Spiders or lower.

Here's the problem, the fundamental fallacy of religion, neatly summed up by Epicurus:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[Madox58]

I'm not even sure if I like being termed a 'Legalized Killer'.
I was a Soldier that Eliminated Targets assigned to me.
I've never considered myself a 'Killer' in anyway.

As for 'God' thinking of us as Children?
That was what someone may have written.
It may be thier 'thoughts' on the subject.
God never wrote a single thing I've ever heard of.
So it's all suspect as I see it.

[Feuer Frei!]

What I don't understand, if God's plan for man was the garden, what happened. What happened? Man failed. Man succumbed to temptation. Adam failed, and with that Mankind was left to their own devices, to chose between right and wrong. Mankind is still failing. Look around you. When he fell, why not destroy him then, place him on another planet, take away his power. What did God do, placed him on earth with all his power and where does he show up...in the garden with Adam and Eve..and then that tree.
Yes he allowed it, it was a test, not in the sense that you or i think, a 'playing games' sort of test, no, this was not in that sense.

The story goes Adam and Eve doomed all mankind, seems they were set up to me. Not at all, no setup here, Adam still had a choice, chose Apple, or chose to go without. No force was used to have Adam succumb to evil. None whatsoever, he chose, with his own free mind, which God had given him. So no setup.

I just say "I don't know." If God's plan was to doom the mass of us to hell to be tortured forever to have a few in heaven.....not what I would call love. It's not him that is dooming us to Hell, as you claim, it is us. He has nothing to do with what we chose, he has said as much, that he has given us free mind and spirit, to do as we please, to chose from right or wrong, to chose from killing one another, or to chose from loving one another.
Surely you cannot tell me that it's God's fault for the murder, the rape, the pilliging, the centuries of mankind killing oneanother off, etc etc.
If you go by what each religion says...whoever is wrong result in the mass of us burning alive.
Yes, denominations, i don't have much faith in them. The fact is culture and human factors play the role on what most believe.
Only to a certain extent, Human Nature actually supercedes your point here.

[Armistead]

Man failed, then his design must've been flawed. He didn't fall until the most powrful angel was allowed to trick him, so we blame man. Sort of unfair one man falls and dooms everyone else.
That's like me killing someone and your kids go to the gas chamber for my sin.


Free will...saying choose me or I'll torture you forever. No man would choose hell, someone had to make it and throw us in there.

I could fall in love with a girl if I was a nut and put a gun to her head and told her to say she loves me or I'll pull the trigger...I'm sure she would say she loves me. That's what most of man does choosing salvation.

Hell, nothing but a tool created by man to control his fellow man with fear.
With the many religions, 1000's of denominations and even more doctrines how could man know what to believe even if he was sincere in the search.
So he could be sincere, yet still doomed if he wasnt able to wade through all the beliefs that have changed over and over depending on what culture was in power.

Most believe what they walk into and never question or simply born into it.

[Feuer Frei!]

Man failed, then his design must've been flawed. Flawed? Or not perfect? It's no secret that man wasn't created as perfect. So?
Thank God( no pun intended) that we weren't created perfect. We were created to be equal.

He didn't fall until the most powrful angel was allowed to trick him, so we blame man. Of course we blame man, goes back to my original point i was making about the pureness of man. Or in a lot of cases, the lack of.

Free will...saying choose me or I'll torture you forever. No man would choose hell, someone had to make it and throw us in there.No, free will to chose between right and wrong, sure, it's not as clear-cut as that, or is it?
No man would chose hell, correct, but, a lot have haven't they? There's plenty of sinning going on in this world. And in relation to God saying indirectly or directly: I will torture you if you don't behave? Far from it, it's once again up to us to decide what we want out of life.

Hell, nothing but a tool created by man to control his fellow man with fear.It's not Hell that i fear. Far from it.

With the many religions, 1000's of denominations and even more doctrines how could man know what to believe even if he was sincere in the search.Easy really, if you are a true believer. The Holy Bible.
Once again, it goes back to my earlier point(s) about Denominations, and why they are wrong.
So he could be sincere, yet still doomed if he wasnt able to wade through all the beliefs that have changed over and over depending on what culture was in power.Yes, many attempt to be sincere, or have a honest and genuine motif for adopting the Christian faith.
Once again, see my point before about Denominations.

[CaptainHaplo]

how could man know what to believe even if he was sincere in the search.

You made this a statement, when it should have been a question. Still, I will answer it.

Lets look at this from a variety of perspectives. The world as we know it, is some one off of who knows how many trillions of chances? Pretty slim odds. Then you look at how things work - from the macro global environment to the micro, the inner workings of the atom in which science still fails to be able to offer more than just theories.

But lets move on... Lets look at history. Xtianity is based on the Bible, and it has over time proven to be a remarkably accurate historical text. The Elba texts, the "biblical legend) of the Hittite people later substantiated to have existed, the Assyrian king Sargon and his victory at Ashdod, or the existence of Belshazzar and his unique position to offer the third most powerful position in the kingdom. Don't forget the vast copper mines in Jordan that were discovered in 2008 and are now considered to be the Mines of Solomon, though prior to their discovery historians doubted their very existence..... Fairly convincing accuracy....

But lets say you need more. Look at the prophecy of the Bible. Israel was to be divided, then Israel and Judah would be scattered. Both happened. There are numerous other prophecies that have proven true, and some that have not yet - so the jury is out on those.

Still not enough? Well, not every person experiences the miracles and blessings of God the same way. You have been blessed, you have experienced miracles, no matter who you are. Yet too often we - in our pride that acts as blinders, fail to recognize them. I have been doubly blessed personally, because not only has the Lord blessed my life, He made sure I was in situations where I didn't have any choice but to see His hand in it. When you get to that point, you can't deny it. Sure, you still fight and always will, but you can't deny it deep down. Tell the world it wasn't a miracle, but you know in your heart it was. That's how you know - not only that God exists, but that He loves you.

I wouldn't want anyone to be in that kind of hardship, because pride can be a bear to overcome. But when God looks on you, smiles and holds out His hand to lift you up from your own stupidity - well pretending He doesnt exist is rather difficult.

[Sailor Steve]

Lets look at this from a variety of perspectives. The world as we know it, is some one off of who knows how many trillions of chances? Pretty slim odds. Then you look at how things work - from the macro global environment to the micro, the inner workings of the atom in which science still fails to be able to offer more than just theories.
It's my opinion that you're really only looking at it from one perspective. Science isn't about why things are, it's about how things tick.

The Bible could very well be true, but accepting it as truth requires a leap of faith in itself. The answers are self-contained, thus creating the problem of evidence.

But lets move on... Lets look at history. Xtianity is based on the Bible, and it has over time proven to be a remarkably accurate historical text. The Elba texts, the "biblical legend) of the Hittite people later substantiated to have existed, the Assyrian king Sargon and his victory at Ashdod, or the existence of Belshazzar and his unique position to offer the third most powerful position in the kingdom. Don't forget the vast copper mines in Jordan that were discovered in 2008 and are now considered to be the Mines of Solomon, though prior to their discovery historians doubted their very existence..... Fairly convincing accuracy....
Okay, no problem. Several historical references have been proven true. New findings might validate other Biblical claims, even the parting of the Red Sea.

But lets say you need more. Look at the prophecy of the Bible. Israel was to be divided, then Israel and Judah would be scattered. Both happened. There are numerous other prophecies that have proven true, and some that have not yet - so the jury is out on those.
And none of the prophetic texts predate Ezra. There is every possibility, especially given who the texts were directed at, that the "prophesies" were written after the fact. I can't prove they were, but there is also no evidence that they weren't.

Still not enough? Well, not every person experiences the miracles and blessings of God the same way. You have been blessed, you have experienced miracles, no matter who you are. Yet too often we - in our pride that acts as blinders, fail to recognize them.
Or not.

I have been doubly blessed personally, because not only has the Lord blessed my life, He made sure I was in situations where I didn't have any choice but to see His hand in it. When you get to that point, you can't deny it. Sure, you still fight and always will, but you can't deny it deep down. Tell the world it wasn't a miracle, but you know in your heart it was. That's how you know - not only that God exists, but that He loves you.
Unfortunately, unless the laws of nature are actually and obviously overturned, miracles are only apparent if you believe in them. I've had the opposite experience. Things I accepted as miraculous at the time were later seen to be possibly miracles, possibly random chance. It was that realization - that all the assumptions I had made were just that - that made me realize I don't know anything.

You may be right, but I've come to the conclusion that there is a distinct possibility that we only see the divine because we already believe that way.

I wouldn't want anyone to be in that kind of hardship, because pride can be a bear to overcome. But when God looks on you, smiles and holds out His hand to lift you up from your own stupidity - well pretending He doesnt exist is rather difficult.
And when I see a total lack of real evidence, pretending He does exist becomes impossible. It may be true, but I don't see it.

[Nicolas]

I have been doubly blessed personally, because not only has the Lord blessed my life, He made sure I was in situations where I didn't have any choice but to see His hand in it. When you get to that point, you can't deny it. Sure, you still fight and always will, but you can't deny it deep down. Tell the world it wasn't a miracle, but you know in your heart it was. That's how you know - not only that God exists, but that He loves you.


I like when i read things like this, rings a bell and start smiling, i know i share the same faith even with people i don't know and lives far away.

[Catfish]

Good point, how come the devil does not have a book of his own?

Because he is just a (fallen) angel, not God himself. Or maybe he's a lousy writer ?

In the Yezidic culture god has long since absolved Mr. Lucifer's deeds, so his reputation and status has been fully restored .

In the protestant religion (Lutheran) there is no purgatory and no hell, so no devil as well. Jesus took the sins of the world and its people on his shoulders, forever.


Choose what you want to believe :hmmm:

[MH]

I'm not religious person at all but i cant deny or confirm to my self existence of God or some super-being or whatever lol.
From my point of view god may have created the universe.
Still i find it funny that people are required to thank him 3 or 5 times a day for living and the more they do it the closer to god and better people they are.
I always say that if god requires that of man he must have real ego problem.
On another hand the struggele between the good and evil is what propelers and shapes us.
World and life would be meaningless if only one exited.
So if god exists then maybe he knows what he is doing or maybe bible simply tries to froward this idea.

[Armistead]

You made this a statement, when it should have been a question. Still, I will answer it.

Lets look at this from a variety of perspectives. The world as we know it, is some one off of who knows how many trillions of chances? Pretty slim odds. Then you look at how things work - from the macro global environment to the micro, the inner workings of the atom in which science still fails to be able to offer more than just theories.

But lets move on... Lets look at history. Xtianity is based on the Bible, and it has over time proven to be a remarkably accurate historical text. The Elba texts, the "biblical legend) of the Hittite people later substantiated to have existed, the Assyrian king Sargon and his victory at Ashdod, or the existence of Belshazzar and his unique position to offer the third most powerful position in the kingdom. Don't forget the vast copper mines in Jordan that were discovered in 2008 and are now considered to be the Mines of Solomon, though prior to their discovery historians doubted their very existence..... Fairly convincing accuracy....

But lets say you need more. Look at the prophecy of the Bible. Israel was to be divided, then Israel and Judah would be scattered. Both happened. There are numerous other prophecies that have proven true, and some that have not yet - so the jury is out on those.

Still not enough? Well, not every person experiences the miracles and blessings of God the same way. You have been blessed, you have experienced miracles, no matter who you are. Yet too often we - in our pride that acts as blinders, fail to recognize them. I have been doubly blessed personally, because not only has the Lord blessed my life, He made sure I was in situations where I didn't have any choice but to see His hand in it. When you get to that point, you can't deny it. Sure, you still fight and always will, but you can't deny it deep down. Tell the world it wasn't a miracle, but you know in your heart it was. That's how you know - not only that God exists, but that He loves you.

I wouldn't want anyone to be in that kind of hardship, because pride can be a bear to overcome. But when God looks on you, smiles and holds out His hand to lift you up from your own stupidity - well pretending He doesnt exist is rather difficult.

Science certainly cannot answer all the questions of the universe, but we don't deny science. Beyond that it is a matter of faith and each is subject to his own.

Every person, religious or secular has events in their life that one could deem a miracle or a random event. No different than bad things. Fate can deal hands good or bad, but I've never seen a miracle beyond science, you know, someone raised from the dead, a lost arm regrown. Most acts of great kindness seem to stem from humans, but I would think that's how God would expect us to act.

I studied greek for 2 years in bible college when I was young. As Steve stated, most prophecy was related to another era and was written after the fact, again denominations each define their own views.

[Armistead]

Because he is just a (fallen) angel, not God himself. Or maybe he's a lousy writer ?

In the Yezidic culture god has long since absolved Mr. Lucifer's deeds, so his reputation and status has been fully restored .

In the protestant religion (Lutheran) there is no purgatory and no hell, so no devil as well. Jesus took the sins of the world and its people on his shoulders, forever.


Choose what you want to believe :hmmm:

Actually the bible says the Devil is powerful and great, but seems he's stupid. God's entire plan is laid out in a book before him, he knows he's powerless before God, yet he would fight on to total destruction. If he's so stupid he can't figure this out, why fear him or he is another creature made up so man can blame his failures yet again on something else.

[Fish]

Easy really, if you are a true believer. The Holy Bible.

Sure, and when you would be born in Saoudi Arabië, The Holy Koran.
Correct?

[Fish]

But lets say you need more. Look at the prophecy of the Bible. Israel was to be divided, then Israel and Judah would be scattered. Both happened. There are numerous other prophecies that have proven true, and some that have not yet - so the jury is out on those.



CaptainHaplo, you realy should read this book[/quote], written bij Israëli scientists.

Or see this docu:
[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-96hNrPcGg (http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136)

[CaptainHaplo]

Fish,

That book you mentioned postulates that there is no archeological proof of Abraham (for one). I specifically addressed that already - the existence of Abraham - who was born in Ur of the Chaldees - is given historical proof from the Ebla find. He and his birthplace were specifically mentioned in these secular texts. Just because 2 authors of a book want to ignore verifiable fact should give you a hint as to the veracity of their postulations.

The video you provided utilizes one of the authors of the book, so its reasonable to say that his demonstratable bias must be considered when looking at the video.

As for additional archeological proofs, many scholars disputed that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed. The Ebla tablets also reference these cities, showing that they were known and did in fact exist.

The 1988 discoveries in Tel Ar Amama provides a third party view of the end of the Exodus period. While this does not substantiate the existence of a man named Moses, it does offer proof that the Biblical account of the wanderings (as the Habiru) is accurate.

Believe what you want, but its disinginuous to ignore data that doesn't further the "debunking" some want.

[AngusJS]

Hahaha i found the video quiet funny really.
Questioning the bible is not for us to do.So your answer is to ignore the question? Wow, you won me over.

And you should try questioning the bible sometime - read it without the assumption that it's true.

God created us equal, with a free mind to chose between right and wrong.Except when he's "hardening our hearts".

[Castout]

It's easy to answer that.

"In the absence of knowledge confusion reign"

"In the absence of knowledge fantasy, sentiment, prejudice wishful thinking and assumption takes precedence"

"In the absence of knowledge nothing is certain"

The only way to know that God is good is by knowing God. The catch is no one can come to God unless it is God who comes to him first. People can always try to come to God or be religious but most people forget that meeting God doesn't only happen in special occasion such as in prayer or at the church vicinity. The truth is God never disconnects from all things including each of us.

Now I can't show you God but I can testify that God is good.

When I was a 7th grader and having a hard time and suffering God answered my cry to Him and answered my request. God literally gave me an explosion of love(love of Christ) to enable me to see Christ and all the glory that is God. Couldn't see s**t but very bright intense white light which I believe was coming from His face.

That was the start of my encounter with God. He never leave me since then on. God would give me dreams to warn me ahead of time of disaster or tragedy. He has also allowed me to feel other people's heart and intention from time to time though seemingly random. it's not bounded by distance and sometime time and there have been occasions where I felt the whole of some nation ahead of time. But it nos has become rarer and even stopped.

He gave me his spirit to dwell in me couple times that gave me an overwhelming peace that literally put a smile on my face. It also made my heart turned gentle. It wasn't weak. Well I cannot describe it in words. I have since lost it because I watch porn from time to time. But while it last I felt like the richest person on the planet. The peace was like an ocean inside me and I felt totally safe anywhere. I only needed to become quiet before an ocean of peace put a smile on my face. I was convinced with that there's no fortresses that couldn't be opened no hearts that couldn't be won.

There was also a time when I felt so angry at a person and God took over. He told me that his life was hard and God literally turned my immense anger to explosion of love. I literally love the person so much but I didn't know really why. It was sincere and not made up. I didn't tell him anything and he wasn't looking at me at the time. Since then he never bothered me any longer.

There was also a time in 2006 where I asked God for something a bit outrageous for most people. He gave me just what I wanted within 3 seconds. It still took too long for me. But I knew those 3 seconds was a test for me to wait. Mind you the answer lasted much longer than 3 seconds but it took 3 seconds before I was given what I asked.

In 2008 God revealed to me how it felt to be in death. I've since better understand the bible teaching of death and resurrection. I've done my own research too looking for reference in the bible and have since made it a document. If you're interested in reading them PM me and I'll send you the doc through email. I treasure this knowledge very much as it is the only secret that God has so far told me. It's nothing new its all in the bible.

The last was in 2009. In my 30 year or so of living I've done some confessing as I'm a Catholic but I never knew how it felt to be forgiven by God at all until one day God told me that He forgave all my sins all of them out of a sudden when I was sitting in the church pew. I didn't ask for it it was really God's initiative. The spontaneous response to God was that I;d forgive everybody that sinned against me(well with the exception the people in power in Singapore that is) because I was overwhelmed with JOY out of forgiveness.

I remember the years of my relationship with God. I carry them in my life. I treasure them. They give me strength and consolation. I'm a still a Christian not because of my belief any longer but because God took me in.

I know most people are probably unable to believe my testament or even mock me but I don't care. I just want to testify that God is so awesome!

[Armistead]

So your answer is to ignore the question? Wow, you won me over.

And you should try questioning the bible sometime - read it without the assumption that it's true.

Except when he's "hardening our hearts".

I agree, always questions, you learn nothing but what someone tells you if you don't question.

A free mind to choose right from wrong denies the human and cultural factors of man.

A child born in poverty in the ghetto without loving parents will usually be in a gang before puberty. Having no one to really teach him right from wrong, his mind will be set before puberty to know wrong. Unless he is one of the lucky few to escape, he'll probably move on to be a criminal.

The same with many prostitutes. They get trapped in it by childhood, rather forced into it often why children, then laced with dope non stop until life to them becomes worthless.

A child beaten and abused often beats and abuses when grown.

Right from wrong is something that is taught by culture. Like most things in culture we learn these things at a young age. It doesn't exist in our hearts, that is self preservation.

Compare that to those who are taught right from wrong, those that are loved at a young age, they will most often grow up different.

The bible says to train a child in it's youth, sort of proves the point.

So again a bias towards those brought up in poverty and unloved and not raised correctly.

[AngusJS]

Yes he allowed it, it was a test, not in the sense that you or i think, a 'playing games' sort of test, no, this was not in that sense.Wait, so omniscient god needs to run tests? Whatever for?

Not at all, no setup here, Adam still had a choice, chose Apple, or chose to go without. No force was used to have Adam succumb to evil. None whatsoever, he chose, with his own free mind, which God had given him. So no setup.Yes, it is a setup. They are punished for making a choice without anyway of knowing the consequences of that choice. How could they have knowledge of good and evil without first eating from the tree? It's a catch 22.

God said "don't eat from that tree, cuz ur dead if you do." God doesn't say it's evil to eat from it. Just that man shouldn't eat from it. You'd think an omniscient being would be more careful with his language.

And how do Adam and Eve have any knowledge of what death is in paradise? How do they know that they must obey god? It's a pretty poorly thought-through test for being the product of the creator of the universe.

It's not him that is dooming us to Hell, as you claim, it is us.If the only way to the father is through the son, and faith supersedes deeds, then god doomed the majority of the world's population for millenia, because they had to wait that long before even having the opportunity to believe in Jesus in the first place.

Indeed, it's funny how the distribution of saved people on Earth is so dependent on geography. It's almost as if it's just a story made up by people for whom the Mediterranean basin was more or less the extent of the known world.


Surely you cannot tell me that it's God's fault for the murder, the rape, the pilliging, the centuries of mankind killing oneanother off, etc etc.Yes, you can. When god issues a commandment condoning lifelong slavery (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25%3A44-46&version=NIV), or protecting a slave owner from punishment (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2021:20-21:21&version=CEV) if the slave he has fatally beaten lingers before dying (I guess the slave's family doesn't deserve justice in god's eyes), then yes, you can blame god for the evil of slavery. You can also blame him for the idea that women are property, that rape is not a big deal, and that pillaging and war are perfectly acceptable, as he commands and oversees so much of it in the OT. And you can blame him for the crimes of inaction that he committed while he was supposedly among us in human form. Jesus could have prevented so much suffering by saying "Don't own slaves" or "Never kill in my name" or "Don't torture" or "Treat men and women equally". But he didn't.

Oh well, I guess doing things like ensuring that there would be enough refreshments for a local wedding party took priority over that stuff.


God is omniscient. He knows what's in his book. Yet he does nothing about it. How is that not blameworthy?

Thank God( no pun intended) that we weren't created perfect.Huh? Why is imperfection a good thing?

Easy really, if you are a true believer. The Holy Bible.You defended the creation story earlier. Did you notice that there are two contradictory creation stories in Genesis, and that they can't both be right?

What does that say about the bible, when there's a glaring contradiction on the very first page?

Why is it not our place to question it?

[Armistead]

Angus, you touched on many valid points. I myself was a youth minister for a Ind. Fundy Baptist Church for years. In bible college when trying to learn greek, many question arose. When you study the bible from the perspective of culture and history, much takes on a different meaning. That was long ago.

The problem with evil and suffering has been debated since man knew it. Basically two camps, God ordained or allowed it, to me they're one in the same.

As you stated, the biblical story shows Adam and Eve couldn't have possibly eaten the fruit with a concious to know what it meant as the knowledge was in the fruit. Also, free will had to exist before they ate, because they chose to eat after being warned. Course how could they grasp a warning without knowledge. If you accept the biblical story then one must accept that God spoon fed them the fruit, because every piece was put in place and they had no knowledge of good or evil until after they ate. If they had it before, may have more doctrinal merit.

As for God allowing. If I allow my young kids to go outside and warn them not to play in the street, that implies I know the harm is there. If I knew the street was dangerous and allowed them to play anyway? If I saw the car coming and said nothing and it ran them over? Humanity, with it's simple ability to be loving and responsible would hold me responsible. I didn't allow, I put them in the position to be killed.

In general I think the story of evil in the bible is man's poetic way to try and explain evil.

Course, other things, in the OT all the Saints had many wives, often 100's of concubines, had sex with slave women, etc...as they were property with no rights at all. All that sex with God's approval and today the church tries to make kids think they're going to hell for masturbating.

[Rockstar]

... And how do Adam and Eve have any knowledge of what death is in paradise? How do they know that they must obey god? It's a pretty poorly thought-through test for being the product of the creator of the universe.Please note that commandments are not given to beasts and beings devoid of intellect. Through intellect one distingushes between truth (emeth) and falsehood (sheqer), and that was found in Adam in its perfection and integrity.

Fine and bad on the other hand belong to things generally accepted as known, not to those cognized by intellect. One doesn't say it is fine (tov) that heaven is spherical, and bad (ra) that the earth is flat, rather we say true and false with regard to these assertions.

Man in virtue of his intellect knows truth from falsehood. When man was in his most perfect state (Thou hast made him a little lower than Elohim) he had no faculty that was enagaged in any way in the consideration of generally accepted things, he did not apprehend them. An example of this would be the uncovering of genitals, this was not bad (ra) according to him and he did not apprehend it was bad. He just knew it to be a truth.

However when he disobeyed and inclined towards his desires ofthe imagination and the pleasures of his corporeal senses (that the tree was good for food and it was a delight to the eyes) he was punished by being deprived of that intellectual apprehension. He therefore disobeyed the commandment that was impossed upon him on account of his intellect and becoming ENDOWED with the faculty of generally apprehending generally accepted things. He became absorbed in judging things to be ra or tov.

Then he knew how great his loss was, what he was deprived of and upon what state he had entered (And ye shall be like Elohim knowing good (tov) and evil (ra)). He had entered into another state in which he considered as bad things that he had not seen in that light beofre.

I think about this and consider myself like Adam in a way. I think I could say my intellect perceives Yehovah's word as emeth. My eyes have been opened and know His Torah is something that is tov to consume.



If the only way to the father is through the son, and faith supersedes deeds, then god doomed the majority of the world's population for millenia, because they had to wait that long before even having the opportunity to believe in Jesus in the first place. Yes, the only way to Abba El is through the Son. But consider who the Son called Yeshua is first. He is Yehovah's Torah made manifest in the flesh. Abiding in Him means you abide in Torah which translated into english is Teachings or Wisdom. I do not look to abide in God's Torah as a means to salvation but rather as a result of it. Even my father Abraham abided in His living Torah and was saved from God's wrath.

Indeed, it's funny how the distribution of saved people on Earth is so dependent on geography. It's almost as if it's just a story made up by people for whom the Mediterranean basin was more or less the extent of the known world. Yehovah chose a particular people to be His. He gave His Teaching to them and it was to be a light unto the nations. So it seems logical it would start from a certain geographical location and spread out from there.


Yes, you can. When god issues a commandment condoning lifelong slavery (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25%3A44-46&version=NIV), or protecting a slave owner from punishment (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2021:20-21:21&version=CEV) if the slave he has fatally beaten lingers before dying (I guess the slave's family doesn't deserve justice in god's eyes), then yes, you can blame god for the evil of slavery.I suggest you look further into his commandments and other commentaries from the time and see how the slaves of Hebrew masters were to be treated. They were treated like family. Furthermore you assume too much because nowhere in Torah does it allow a master to fatally beat a slave or abuse him. Nor does Exodus 21:20-21 even come close to implying that.

Rather what is being said here is if the master beat his slave. And the slave continues (amad) after a day or two and dies the master shall not be punished. Do you know what 'continues' means here? It means the slave was able to stand, rise up, to go about his business, to hold his ground. It does NOT mean he is lying there in a bloody pile of flesh waiting to die. For that the master would surely be punished under Yehovah's commandments. Also don't think the word slave in Ancient times has the same meaning it does today. The were workers employed to a certain man and under obligation to him. The master fed him, clothed him, sheltered him, educated him, shared the same God, Teachings and Feasts like I said became almost like family. The way things were structure back then is if the slave was disobedient or lazy he could be beaten. Similar I reckon to that of the Bosun when in the age of sail would strike a slacker with his 'motivator'. Is it something I could stomach today? Not likely but it was a fact of life back then.

You can also blame him for the idea that women are property, that rape is not a big deal Translators of the bible use of the word ‘rape’ had a much broader meaning than what we call rape (chazak, which suggests a violent seizure) today. It could also be used in “seduction,” (tabas). And it is "Tabas" that is being presented here, a man seducing a virgin he is not married to with her consent. Understand the culture and the time and you will have better understanding why these commandments were given. The father of a daughter had much to loose if she was lead astray and seduced by a man. This commandment instructs the seducer to follow through with his sexual advances with marriage. And pay the father what would have been due him had she been promised to another.


... and that pillaging and war are perfectly acceptable, as he commands and oversees so much of it in the OT.What Yehovah gave to His children was a land filled with idolatry and pagan sacrifice. He instructed them to rid the land of it by destroying the inhabitants. He is a jealous God so Yehovah plus Zeus will not be tolerated. Which is one of the reasons why I worship Him and no other.

And you can blame him for the crimes of inaction that he committed while he was supposedly among us in human form. Jesus could have prevented so much suffering by saying "Don't own slaves" or "Never kill in my name" or "Don't torture" or "Treat men and women equally". But he didn't. Care to illustrate or identify these passages? Because I would be more than happy to speak of these things with you. :)

Oh well, I guess doing things like ensuring that there would be enough refreshments for a local wedding party took priority over that stuff.


God is omniscient. He knows what's in his book. Yet he does nothing about it. How is that not blameworthy? <--- would take a more than a few moments but if you'd like I could attempt to explain it. But it is only my opinion


You defended the creation story earlier. Did you notice that there are two contradictory creation stories in Genesis, and that they can't both be right? What does that say about the bible, when there's a glaring contradiction on the very first page? I think I might know what you are reffering to but I will go so far to say there are NOT two stories only one Angus. If you could be specific I will explain.


Why is it not our place to question it?By all means question! But allow me to suggest we be like the Bereans and when someone talks about something in scripture at least allow scripture defend itself. How? We need to open scripture up to see if those things they say are so. Which is my advice to you regarding everything I have written here too. :salute:

[MH]

@Rockstar
'hazak' (חזק) in Hebrew means strong.
'O ne s' (אונס) means rape or forced

That is unless i missunerstood what you are saying.
Very intresting thread :salute:

[Rockstar]

Sorry MH I don't speak Hebrew, all I have really is a strong's concordance, books by Jewish commentators, a few living Hakkam and others such as yourself to help me out.


Exodus 22:16 is the first time this commandment is mentioned. Deuteronomy 22:28 is the second witness which also goes into more detail as to the responsibilities expected of the man after he has seduced the woman.

Deu 22:28 - If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed , and lay hold (tabas) on her, and lie with her, and they be found...


However here in Deuteronomy 22:25 is an example of the punishment a man must endure who has forced (chazaq) a damsel. He must be put to death and rightly so IMO.

Deu 22:25 - But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force (chazaq) her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

Though I believe we could iron out the details of the meaning of these translations. I think we can agree even now the God of Israel is not the author of a morally heinous commandment of allowing a rapist to go free.

Peace bro'

[Armistead]

Sorry MH I don't speak Hebrew, all I have really is a strong's concordance, books by Jewish commentators, a few living Hakkam and others such as yourself to help me out.


Exodus 22:16 is the first time this commandment is mentioned. Deuteronomy 22:28 is the second witness which also goes into more detail as to the responsibilities expected of the man after he has seduced the woman.

Deu 22:28 - If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed , and lay hold (tabas) on her, and lie with her, and they be found...


However here in Deuteronomy 22:25 is an example of the punishment a man must endure who has forced (chazaq) a damsel. He must be put to death and rightly so IMO.

Deu 22:25 - But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force (chazaq) her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

Though I believe we could iron out the details of the meaning of these translations. I think we can agree even now the God of Israel is not the author of a morally heinous commandment of allowing a rapist to go free.

Peace bro'

The death penalty wasn't incurred because of the rape of a women, it was over the fathers property right. Actually a man was not always put to death for rape. It was up to the father. The father could make him pay the fine per say, his dowry rights for the loss of her virgin status and even demand marriage. If it was rape, it was up to the father. If he wanted he could pardon, yet he had the right also death. Still, other laws applied, witnesses, her virgin status, etc..

If it was just sex mutally agreed upon out of wedlock then it wasn't a death sentence, the father again could demand payment for her virgin status and order marriage. If the father didn't want marriage, he could take the money and the lad was sent on his way without further rebuke.

The same biblical laws apply for slave women caught after battle. Often sides battled out until one was almost destroyed and many women were taken captive. She became the captors property. She had to go through a mourning process, the man could then have sex with her regardless of her wanting it. After having sex he would take her as a wife. If he had sex with her and didn't marry her, he had to let her go and give her freedom.
These were the biblical rules, there was no punishment for taking the woman and having sex with her due to her slave status as she was your property, not the property of the father.

[Rockstar]

The death penalty wasn't incurred because of the rape of a women, it was over the fathers property right.

Then I believe it would have stated it as such in Deu 22:25. However it is very specific in that chapter and verse that the man would be put to death for forcefully taking a women. Not because he didn't pay the dowry.

Actually a man was not always put to death for rape. It was up to the father. The father could make him pay the fine per say, his dowry rights for the loss of her virgin status and even demand marriage. This you are speaking of is when the man seduces a women and they enter into a consensual intercourse. That is described in Deu: 22:28. If so judged it required the man to follow through with his advances, ante up the 50 shekel dowry, marry the woman and was never allowed to put her away her.

If it was rape, it was up to the father. If he wanted he could pardon, yet he had the right also death. Still, other laws applied, witnesses, her virgin status, etc..Maybe so, in some parts of the world hence Yehovah's Commandments to the contrary. Which is the point I want to make that Yehovah DOES NOT condone such action he has Commandments against it. If it was a family who abides in Torah then a father who loved his God would not ever dream of putting his daughter through such an ordeal of having to marry a man who committed the heinous act of taking her by force against her will.

[AngusJS]

Please note that commandments are not given to beasts and beings devoid of intellect. Through intellect one distingushes between truth (emeth) and falsehood (sheqer), and that was found in Adam in its perfection and integrity.

Fine and bad on the other hand belong to things generally accepted as known, not to those cognized by intellect. One doesn't say it is fine (tov) that heaven is spherical, and bad (ra) that the earth is flat, rather we say true and false with regard to these assertions.

Man in virtue of his intellect knows truth from falsehood. When man was in his most perfect state (Thou hast made him a little lower than Elohim) he had no faculty that was enagaged in any way in the consideration of generally accepted things, he did not apprehend them. An example of this would be the uncovering of genitals, this was not bad (ra) according to him and he did not apprehend it was bad. He just knew it to be a truth.

However when he disobeyed and inclined towards his desires ofthe imagination and the pleasures of his corporeal senses (that the tree was good for food and it was a delight to the eyes) he was punished by being deprived of that intellectual apprehension. He therefore disobeyed the commandment that was impossed upon him on account of his intellect and becoming ENDOWED with the faculty of generally apprehending generally accepted things. He became absorbed in judging things to be ra or tov.

Then he knew how great his loss was, what he was deprived of and upon what state he had entered (And ye shall be like Elohim knowing good (tov) and evil (ra)). He had entered into another state in which he considered as bad things that he had not seen in that light beofre.

I think about this and consider myself like Adam in a way. I think I could say my intellect perceives Yehovah's word as emeth. My eyes have been opened and see it as something consume that is tov.I think you're making things up out of whole cloth. You're adding to the text to create a bizarre distinction between kinds of knowledge in order to be able to excuse god by having man know some things about good and bad, while not knowing other things, which he has to in order for the fruit to have any effect and the story to make sense.

How can things be generally accepted when there are only 2 people on the planet?

If "uncovering of genitals" is a "truth", then why isn't obeying god a "truth"? And if man has the "truth", why would he listen to a snake in the first place?

Being able to distinguish between truth and falsehood does not give you knowledge. That only comes through experience. Without having experienced death, you can't know what it is.

And you really have to go the the psalms to try and make the story make sense?

Yes, the only way to Abba El is through the Son. But consider who the Son called Yeshua is first. He is Yehovah's Torah made manifest in the flesh. Abiding in Him means you abide in Torah which translated into english is Teachings or Wisdom. I do not look to abide in God's Torah as a means to salvation but rather as a result of it. Even my father Abraham abided in His living Torah and was saved from God's wrath.So all the inhabitants of the Americas and Australia as well as most of Asia and Africa are out of luck? All those poor Native Americans are burning in hell now because they were born in the wrong in the place at the wrong time? That's some god you have.

Yehovah chose a particular people to be His. He gave His Teaching to them and it was to be a light unto the nations. So it seems logical it would start from a certain geographical location and spread out from there.So god creates the universe, with its estimated 10^24 stars and untold number of planets, waits 9 billion years for Earth to even be formed, then waits about another 3.5 billion years for hominids to evolve, then ignores all of them until homo sapiens arrives ~100,000 years ago, and then waits another 96,000 years, (during which life was probably short and brutal for his favorite animals), until finally revealing his message. But not to all people - oh no - just to a specific tribe in the Middle East.

And the Torah that he gives to his people mostly consists of lots and lots of bloodshed, impossible stories, and petty, silly minutia repeated ad nauseam - like how to slaughter animals for sacrifice and what to do with the blood (because naturally a being that created the entire universe has to have his burnt offerings done juuuuuuust right), the exact design of an altar and other temple implements, and helpful reminders, like when he tells his chosen people to go outside their encampment to relieve themselves.

Isn't it more likely, when you look at how this religion doesn't fit reality as we now know it to be (and which god couldn't be bothered to tell us about), that it's just another religion made up by ancient people, like so many thousands of others which I take it you dismiss?

Rather what is being said here is if the master beat his slave. And the slave continues (amad) after a day or two and dies the master shall not be punished. Do you know what 'continues' means here? It means the slave was able to stand, rise up, to go about his business, to hold his ground. It does NOT mean he is lying there in a bloody pile of flesh waiting to die. For that the master would surely be punished under Yehovah's commandments.How do you get all that from "continue"? And so he survives for a day or two - he still dies from his master's assault. How is this ok again? I'd love to see that defense used in court.

Also don't think the word slave in Ancient times has the same meaning it does today. The were workers employed to a certain man and under obligation to him. The master fed him, clothed him, sheltered him, educated him, shared the same God, Teachings and Feasts like I said became almost like family. The way things were structure back then is if the slave was disobedient or lazy he could be beaten. Similar I reckon to that of the Bosun when in the age of sail would strike a slacker with his 'motivator'. Is it something I could stomach today? Not likely but it was a fact of life back then.Sorry, owning another human being is never ok, regardless of whether a master is cruel or not. We understand this - apparently god doesn't? And regardless of what god "meant", his omniscience means he's going to see the effects of his commandments, and how it's going to to justify the suffering of millions of people in the future. Did this give him pause? Nope.

Translators of the bible use of the word ‘rape’ had a much broader meaning than what we call rape (chazak, which suggests a violent seizure) today. It could also be used in “seduction,” (tabas).The only resource I have is an online phonetic Hebrew bible, but I couldn't find "tabas" or anything like it in that passage. Anyway, the only information I was able to find about "tabas" did not give "seduce" as a meaning; rather, "take hold of" seems to be the likeliest meaning, which doesn't let god off the hook.

But regardless, if you're right, now your god is commanding us to punish people for premarital sex - not a huge improvement. And again, the woman's wishes are irrelevant - the punishment for the man is to marry the woman, regardless of whether the woman wants to marry him or not. Again, women are property. Why does god think they are, while we know they aren't?

Now you'll say "it made sense in that context", but there in lies the problem. An eternal, omniscient being should be above context. What's the use of him saying anything if it only applies to an extremely limited time and place? Why follow this god that, when he had the opportunity to give us great moral lessons, he decided to give us this instead - barbaric practices that are thankfully now completely outdated?

Why does the creator of the universe act exactly like something a backward, bronze age patriarchical society might make up?

What Yehovah gave to His children was a land filled with idolatry and pagan sacrifice. He instructed them to rid the land of it by destroying the inhabitants. He is a jealous God so Yehovah plus Zeus will not be tolerated. Which is why I worship Him and no other.Why do you worship such a sadist? Why do you worship a god that is less moral than you are? Does it make sense that the creator of the entire universe is so pathetically insecure and so hungry for blood?

Care to illustrate or identify these passages? Because I would be more than happy to speak of these things with you.That's just the point - no such passages exist. Jesus couldn't be bothered to say them.

I think I might know what you are reffering to but I will go so far to say there are NOT two stories only one Angus. If you could be specific I will explain.There are two different versions of the creation story - chapter 1, which has god creating animals on the 5th and 6th days, and humans (men and women) on the 6th day, and chapter 2, which has god creating man, then creating all other creatures in the search for a "help mate" for Adam (why does an omniscient god even need to do this?), before finally creating woman.

And speaking of helpmates, could you please explain who was Cain's wife? :DL

[Armistead]

I'll add some reply to Rockstar concerning women. You're pulling a verse out without studying the complete law and rites.

Consider
Exodus 22:16-17 (King James Version)



16And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

This clearly explains that premarital sex took place and it was the mans duty to marry her, but she was still the property of the father and it was his decision. In the verses you use you're trying to turn rape into seduction, this is actual seduction and the remedy, it was up to the father. If the father refused marriage, the man paid and went on his way without any further rebuke.

Laws concerning women caught in battle.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (New International Version, ©2011

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.


Here again, the man takes the woman, mainly out of pure sexual attraction. Obvious the higher your rank or status as a soldier, you got the pick of the litter. Again marriage is desired, but not commanded. Verse 14 clearly states if the man is not pleased with her after sex, he had to let her go, he could not sell her. The only price the man paid was not his honor, but the fact he dishonered her, so she was given her freedom. Men took many wives and concubines this way according to law, but let even more go free after sex.

They're actually numerous verses concerning premarital sex vs. the property rights of the father. In every case of pre-marital sex in the Bible there is no punishment for the sexual act. The only penalty is the compensation to the father for the woman's change in status.

You state that the father serving God wouldn't put his daughter through such abuse. Well, you don't understand the cultural or how biblical law set the standards. Due to the patriarchal society, a family with sons was stronger than a family with daughters. However, cultures find ways to balance wealth and power. In the OT culture, a man seeking marriage would pay the father of the bride. The value of the bride was determined by many factors including her beauty, ability to bear children, strength, various household skills and even her status as a virgin.

Also remember in biblical times most young women were betrothed based on a family financial deal. Sometimes she never even had met her husband until the wedding day. The father was more concerned with wealth. And once betrothed they families had to wait until the girl was 12.5 year old before they could marry.

In biblical times there was nothing wrong with a married man having as many wives as he could afford, concubine and "common" prostitutes. Adultery was only wrong for a married women, since it violated her husbands property (and sexual) rights over her and his other wives or concubines.

In biblical times men were masters, and ruled over women and their children. Women had very few rights, and men often bought women from their families or at an auction usually at age 12.5. Women were owned property of a man like it or not.

Much debate now consist how the NT changed OT law. However, we have a historical study how the church applied it. Polygamy, womans value, property rights consisted for many years after Christ among many christians, both jew and gentile, more of a cultural issue. It was finally put away by one of the Popes. The issue wasn't spiritual, but to protect property from being taken out of the church. The same reason another Pope ended all marriages against God's word for priest and further forbade them, all about property. For the most part polygamy, women as property lasted for another few hundred years after Christ in the church. The only one who couldn't have numerous wives were deacons, the Pastors of the day, they were commanded by Paul to take only one wife. In the end, the bible included a lot of cultural laws that became woven into mosaic law commanded by the priest getting it directly from God...or so they say. It seems that political views based on a mix of religion and culture evolved womens rights and issues about sexuality from then after.

[geetrue]

OT is nice for understanding God's original purposes, but the NT is quite clear that if you live by the law you will die by the law.

In the OT if you broke one law you broke all of the laws and the only payment required was listed as the blood of a perfect lamb, etc on down to a turtle dove or a wine and grain offering for lessor sins.

But as any real believer knows the blood of the Son of God has paid for the sins you have confessed and repented of ...

You will hear about the sins you have not repented of on judgment day. It is not nice to continue in sin if you know you are sinning.

As for unbelievers only the Holy Spirit can convict you of sin anyway ... so don't worry about it. He only enters into your heart if you ask Him to.

Dear Lord Jesus I am a sinner and in or of myself I can do nothing to save myself. I invite you into my heart and into my soul. I confess you as my Lord and believe that you paid for all of my sins on the cross at Calvary.

_____________________ signed

It doesn't get easier than that, but most people have to have a break down or someone in the family passes away or a wreck or doctor's negative report can trigger a trip into the unknown world of God the father, God the son and God as the comforter in the form of the Holy Spirit.

The unity of the trinity ... the power of the universe was the meat of St Patrick's prayer.

Besides if there is no hell then you don't have to fear God :woot:

[Armistead]

OT is nice for understanding God's original purposes, but the NT is quite clear that if you live by the law you will die by the law.



Besides if there is no hell then you don't have to fear God :woot:


My children fear me and no hell here, nor would I threaten them with torture to get their attention, not to mention if I did the law would lock me up for being an abusive parent.

Correct fear seeks a solution for the betterment of the person, not to control them out of causing pain. Hope you don't treat you loved ones that way.

You proved again, people only accept Jesus out of fear or torture...What a loving relationship.

The NT put away certain laws. Much confusion exist over mosaic law vs. ceremonial laws, cultural habits, etc..

Christ replace the law with the law of love, which James states "love doe's no harm, thus it fulfills the law. Simply sin is acts that harm others. If people lived that way and minded their own business, I think Christ was on to something.

[geetrue]

My children fear me and no hell here, nor would I threaten them with torture to get their attention, not to mention if I did the law would lock me up for being an abusive parent.

Correct fear seeks a solution for the betterment of the person, not to control them out of causing pain. Hope you don't treat you loved ones that way.

You proved again, people only accept Jesus out of fear or torture...What a loving relationship.

The Greek definition of the word 'fear' is respect

God wants his servants to simply respect him, not to be afraid of him.

Keeping that in mind most personal accounts of meeting God have been shaking of the knees and instant confession that they are sinners.

You don't have to respect him if you don't love him that's for sure.

I wouldn't worry about it ... faith and fear are a lot alike in the small moment of time ,'click', that it takes to replace each other they are just alike.

[Rockstar]

I'll add some reply to Rockstar concerning women. You're pulling a verse out without studying the complete law and rites.
Consider
Exodus 22:16-17 (King James Version)



16And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

This clearly explains that premarital sex took place and it was the mans duty to marry her, but she was still the property of the father and it was his decision. In the verses you use you're trying to turn rape into seduction, this is actual seduction and the remedy, it was up to the father. If the father refused marriage, the man paid and went on his way without any further rebuke.And your point is what? Did see what the initial arguement was? The point I am making is Yehovah DOES NOT condone forcable rape in that he would require the VICTIM to marry the ATTACKER. What are you trying to argue here?

Laws concerning women caught in battle.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (New International Version, ©2011

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.Here again read the words, he may have delivered the women into their hands. But it was not forcibly by rape or victimizing them. Yes the man was permitted to MARRY them! Is that even close to forcable rape? NO! What ATTACKER gives a rats arse about honor? Does an ATTACKER of women care whether he marrys her?

Here again, the man takes the woman, mainly out of pure sexual attraction. Are you telling me the modern man nolonger sees the outward appearence? I do, and how, ask my wife what first attracted me to her she'll tell you sure wasn't on account of her education.

Again marriage is desired, but not commanded. Verse 14 clearly states if the man is not pleased with her after sex, he had to let her go, he could not sell her. The only price the man paid was not his honor, but the fact he dishonered her, so she was given her freedom. Men took many wives and concubines this way according to law, but let even more go free after sex. What about the human side of this? Did you ever think the woman never loved this man? Maybe this man killed her husband her sons? Also there was no intercourse between them from the time of her capture to the end of her days of mourning. Only then did the man go in unto her to be her husband and if for whatever reason it didn't work out. The man was commanded to permit her to go WHENEVER SHE wanted to. Does that sound like forcible rape?


You state that the father serving God wouldn't put his daughter through such abuse. Well, you don't understand the cultural or how biblical law set the standards..

And I still stand by that truth. But let me ask you anyways, does it state anywhere in either the Tanach or Brit Chadasha that Yehovah condones a VICTIM of heinous crime of forcible rape to marry her ATTACKER? This has nothing to do with seduction where two are consenting or the spoils of war where a man finds a woman and takes her in marriage or payment of the usual normal 50 shekel dowry.

If you do then show me where

[Armistead]

Rockstar, you totally missed the point. I was responding to your statement on rape. I agree it's a death sentence, but you seem to imply that mutual sex always equaled married. However, I would state rules then certainly would be defined rape today. Biblical law allowed arranged marriages, women bought at auction for marriage, etc. Captive women had no rights, they became the property of the army and delved out. Sure they were allowed to mourn, but then the man could have sex with her and she had to marry him, or he sent her on her way. The jews fought other tribes, so the property rights of a differing tribe had no effect to woman caught in battle. To me all the above are rape, but they were biblically allowed by God to do so...

The main point, a man having sex with a woman not rape, if they were caught there was no death sentence nor did it equal marriage. I clearly stated only with the fathers permission. Simply the act of sex didn't equal a must marriage, nor did it make them married. It was up to the father. Had nothing to do with love, if he was a broke lad, most fathers sent him packing.
Guess that never ends, seems marriage all about money even then as much as many women marry today for it.

The other point you seem to miss, women were property and biblical law supported such. I think no such thing, I believe it was cultural, that the priest wove the cultural law into the mosaic law and God got the credit for giving it all, but the bible gives God the credit...People that take the bible literally often don't know how to defend these God given laws. The bible is full of culture, history, tribal ethics. Most Christians say polygamy was sin, it wasn't biblically, God approved it, ordained it and even ordered it at times. Nor was it put away in the NT, it continued until Popes put it away 100's of years later.

In the end, all the law was given only to the jews, it wasn't meant for anyone else, where I would agree God's moral law would still stand for all.

[Type941]

yeah, i think people shouldn't really take bible and wotnot literally. i mean it's pretty childish thing to do. religion is all about explaining good and bad things and code of ethics and laws to live by, but binded by fanaticism. i think all religions are the same in their nature, and if people didnt follow it so litereally world would be a much safer and better place.

[Armistead]

It would an interesting concept to understand how religion evolved as man. Obvious as man evolved, early studies show most anything man couldn't understand or fear became god like. In early man tribes made gods out of wind, animals, the sun, storms, and many placed god like man beings in control. One can just search arch for ancient gods and goddesses in two ways, by culture or date and you'll find thousands created.