Windsor baby, parents over courts?

[Armistead]

Saw this last night. Seems the court is trying to pull life support and left the baby die. The parents want them to perform a trach to keep the baby alive a while longer so they can take him home to die. Not sure why they would refuse this. The baby is in a vegetative state from a rare neurodegenerative condition and has no hope of recovery.

This brings about a much bigger issue. I read somewhere we spend over 60% of total medical cost during last stages of life. Often just to buy more time for the elderly. I think of my grandmother who was on life support for months, no hope of recovery, but the child in control wouldn't pull the plug. I'm sure this cost medicare a fortune.

The down side is we spend billions keeping people alive for a short time, could not that money be better spent on someone that has a real chance of life.

[Tribesman]

The parents want them to perform a trach to keep the baby alive a while longer so they can take him home to die. Not sure why they would refuse this.
What is the medical benefit the patient would get from performing the operation?

[Gargamel]

This is a common practice in hospice / palliative care situations. It's to help the family move along in the grieving process. They want the passing to happen on their own terms, to give them some feeling of control. The treatment is not for the patient themselves, but for the family. The idea is to spend a little time to help the family, rather than extended amounts of time after in therapy / recovery.

I once had to bag a kid (10 month old, +/- a few months) for an hour and a half because our ventilator would not go to such a high rate, and low volume. My hands started cramping because of the high rate (60 breaths a minute, for 90 minutes), that I had to let the mother take over for a few minutes so I could work out the cramps. When we arrived at the hospice facility, the whole family was waiting. We placed the kid in the crib, and they removed the Tube. He died a few minutes later.

The transport wasn't for the kid, it was to give the family a place to mourn, and be able to accept the death.

Each family works differently, some want their loved ones at the Hospital, some want them at home. To each their own.

I dare anybody to say that these types of actions are a waste of money. To intentionally cause harm and grief to a family just because it will save a few dollars is barbaric.

And I fully understand the 60& figure. We're sickest when were almost dead. That's when we need the most care. And sometimes the family doesn't let go, dragging out a process that doesn't need to be. But to force the removal of life support systems on patients would be the equivalent of assisted suicide, but in this case it would be homicide, as you were forcing somebody to die who (or their proxy) didn't want to. I'm all for Euthanasia, but only if all parties are consensual.


I have a whole theory on health care providers point of view on the different types of grieving families, and How to approach them. But it's quit long winded, and I won't get into it unless somebody really wants to know.

[Armistead]

I think it should be a concern to us all. I'm not sure how I feel knowing that over 50% of medicare dollars go to end of life care, knowing that so many cuts are taking place and millions with no insurance at all.

I certainly see a future where medicare/caid guidelines will start rationing end of life care.

[Gargamel]

I think it should be a concern to us all. I'm not sure how I feel knowing that over 50% of medicare dollars go to end of life care, knowing that so many cuts are taking place and millions with no insurance at all.

I certainly see a future where medicare/caid guidelines will start rationing end of life care.

At least in Ohio, these are usually preset, things that medicaid/care will pay for.

What they won't do, is withhold routine quality of life type treatments just because of cost. Getting a feeding tube (PEG tube) placed for instance, is a very simple and routine procedure. Whether to do it is left upto the family with a consultation form the doc.

In acutely terminal situations, IE middle aged person with recently discovered terminal cancer, they usually go on a Hospice based system, which handles all the billing and treatments for the patient/family. If it makes the patient more comfortable, and won't unnecessarily extend a patients life span (ie decreasing quality of life), then they are all for it. I have never seen docs and nurses more free with the morphine than the ones at Hospice.

LIke I mentioned before, you are sickest before you die (most of the time), and thats when you need the most treatment.

Take a car for example. If you do routine maintenance on it, it will last a long time. Then all of a sudden, it throws a rod, and then drops the tranny. This car is almost dead. Usually you'd just get a new one. Can't do that with people (normally). So if you were to restore this car, the majority of the cost of maintenance would occur now, compared to the rest of it's lifetime.

The reason people find that statistic 'concerning', is that almost everything else in life is replaced when it becomes cost inefficient to repair it. Cars, ships, anything really. There comes a point where it's just cheaper to get a new one. But we can't do that with people.

I truly believe that no matter how much the bean counters have control, the ethics of medicine will always, eventually, win out.

[Gargamel]

They've moved to St. Louis to keep the baby alive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12740663

OK.... so it was a donated jet. Why not jsut doante the funds to do the procedure the family wanted to let him go in peace? Now we are bordering on the ridiculous and people will start turning this into a political agenda.

I misunderstood the original argument. I thought they were doing the procedure to let them take him home to let him die. They wanted the procedure to make him choke less when they pull off the vent. I'm not sure I agree with that reasoning. Asphyxiation is asphyxiation, it's going to hurt either way.