But I was told the free market brought me the best product at the cheapest price!!

[Torvald Von Mansee]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/technology/22iht-broadband22.html?_r=2&ref=technology

Prediction: "But!! But!! South Korea is so much more urban than the U.S.!!!" will be said..

[gimpy117]

not here in america. Congress handed a bunch of cash to telecom companies for "fiber to the curb" programs. The never delivered and congress just did nothing about it.

[the_tyrant]

I still use bell 7mb internet
but 1 gb/second:o
my whole porno collection can be uploaded in 300 seconds:doh:

[Platapus]

I
my whole porno collection can be uploaded in 300 seconds:doh:

Piker!

:D:D

[Galanti]

I wonder what their bandwidth cap restrictions are, if any. I think that if North America were to see 1 Gb/s Intertubes speeds, most of us us would go broke in about six months from blowing our bandwidth caps, particularly as the size of media soars from advances in HD.

[antikristuseke]

Over here bandwith caps don't exist, except on one provider who is expected to file for bankruptcy in the next few months. Or for some cell phone 3g/4g networks.
Going to upgrade my home connection to 120mbit in the next few months, the laying of the fiber optic cable to the house and hookup will be done free of charge. As for my phone I am limited to 2mbit, but I have that 2mbit even in the middle of a swamp. One of the benefits of living in a small country with a highly developed telecom infrastructure.

[Ducimus]

not here in america. Congress handed a bunch of cash to telecom companies for "fiber to the curb" programs. The never delivered and congress just did nothing about it.

The corporates, that happen to live in America - while rolling in the dough, are morally and ethically bankrupt. They also have congress in their pocket.

[Castout]

OMG South Korea is so cool :DL.

Their hackers would be able to steal data faster Yay. All hackers would be migrating to South Korea. LOL

[mookiemookie]

Paging Dr. UnderseaLcpl, Dr. UnderseaLcpl, please meet your party at the front desk.
:know:

[Ducimus]

OMG South Korea is so cool :DL.

Their hackers would be able to steal data faster Yay. All hackers would be migrating to South Korea. LOL

Is starcraft still big over there? :haha:

[antikristuseke]

Yes, yes it is.

[redsocialist]

The corporates, that happen to live in America - while rolling in the dough, are morally and ethically bankrupt. They also have congress in their pocket.

So true, the american politicians are bought and paid for by corporate America. There are few left who didn't sell out to the agenda like Ron Paul.I know, this sounds crazy coming froma socialist :shucks:

[redsocialist]

http://www.blackeducator.org/capitalism3.jpg

[Schroeder]

While I'm not a huge fan of free capitalism I've got to say that the pollution and the number of choices you had in the former German Democratic Republic where much worse than anything in the Federal Republic of Germany.
So socialism isn't really an answer. I think a mixture of both (as we used to have in Germany...) is the best way.

[TLAM Strike]

So socialism isn't really an answer. I think a mixture of both (as we used to have in Germany...) is the best way.

Finally someone speaking sense around here. :up:

[redsocialist]

While I'm not a huge fan of free capitalism I've got to say that the pollution and the number of choices you had in the former German Democratic Republic where much worse than anything in the Federal Republic of Germany.
So socialism isn't really an answer. I think a mixture of both (as we used to have in Germany...) is the best way.

Libertarian Socialism is the way to go!
:yep:

http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/ezln_zapatista.jpg

[Schöneboom]

Landless Peasants Unite!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

[redsocialist]

Landless Peasants Unite!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

"Anarcho-Syndicalite Commune" Lol I love this movie and especially this clip :yeah:

[Ducimus]

Paging Dr. UnderseaLcpl, Dr. UnderseaLcpl, please meet your party at the front desk.
:know:

You know, im surprised some of our local die hard Team R fans' aren't all over our new socialism advocate like a pack of dogs on a 3 legged cat.
(edit: Or have they already met and had their tiff, and i just missed it?)

[Freiwillige]

Nazism, Communism, Socialism, colonialism.....here is a clue, If the word ends in ISM chances are its bad as history has shown. I prefer Freedom <-no ISM.

Oh and that also includes Imperialism.

[redsocialist]

Nazism, Communism, Socialism, colonialism.....here is a clue, If the word ends in ISM chances are its bad as history has shown. I prefer Freedom <-no ISM.

Oh and that also includes Imperialism.

Explained from a realist prespective, though you forgot Capitalism

[Ducimus]

From a literary standpoint, he just landed one on ya Freiwillige.

(I'm not saying I agree with his stance, (cause i don't). but speaking of just words, in and of themselves. You left yourself open on that one.)

[Freiwillige]

Well we could have great internet too if we had a foreign nation giving us Billions a year in subsidies.

[Freiwillige]

Explained from a realist prespective, though you forgot Capitalism

Touche!

I guess I should try to address that. Capitalism is also bad? Damn he's got me.:salute:

That is what I call underestimating my opponent. Oh well a little pie in the face helps keep you grounded.

[Ducimus]

Well we could have great internet too if we had a foreign nation giving us Billions a year in subsidies.

Pigs will sprout wings and fly first. :O:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Paging Dr. UnderseaLcpl, Dr. UnderseaLcpl, please meet your party at the front desk.
:know:

I'm here.....I'm here. What seems to be the problem? South Korea is implementing a forward-thinking attitude to internet speed, connectivity, and bandwidth? And they are ahead of us? Troubling.

Diagnosis: Though it is not unknown for the occassional government program in some nation, somewhere, to get something right, time will tell as to whether this is a wise move on the part of the S. Korean government.

Remember when Japan thought subsidizing robotics would be a great idea? They developed a lot of fascinating innovations in the field, but look where it got them as a nation. Now they are struggling to stay competitive against other Asian markets that weren't quite so enlightened but had a more practical attitude.

Now, look where their efforts got us. Nice tech at bargain prices with relatively little effort on our part because there is never any demand for what they develop when they develop it. They paid for their attempt to bypass the natural progression of free exchange in more ways than one. Worse, they paid for it as a nation because it was a national initiative. What should have been an impressive series of market triumphs was cut tragically short by something as simple as basic supply and demand. The case for state foresight in new industries has already been made.

On to the US part of the equation. There was a time, not so long ago, when the US government still thought it was their onus to facilitate telecommunications. Anyone alive at the time will remember what a spectacular failure that was. The "deregulation"(read: limited, licensed, privatization with heavy regulation) of telecommunications led to a worldwide revolution in digital communications. The effect was so profound that we now have debates over the tremendous availability of data, whether it is to children or the quality of information or the ability and need of the average citizen to utilize it. The case for privatization, in any capacity, is already made.

So how does this all tie together? Well, what we're essentially looking at here, given the heavy regulation of US telecom industries under the FCC and the telecommuncications act of 1996, which was supposedly deregulatory but managed to somehow add nearly 10,000 pages of regulation to the registrar, is a match between a state initiative and a state intitiative. To put it simply, the US set a bar on what telecom industries could do, and South Korea has directed state resources at raising the bar, possibly without regard to the consequences. Perhaps they will be successful, or perhaps they will end up the victim of yet another unintended result of cramming people's own money down their throats in the name of a supposedly greater good.

Prescription: Remove taxes, spurious regulations, and subsidies for US business of any type (or at least anything that was lobbied for) and actually force them to compete by removing state trade barriers. It will cure what ails you. Side-effects may include complaining special interests and unemployed, politically-inclined rhetoriticians.

[TLAM Strike]

Nazism, Communism, Socialism, colonialism.....here is a clue, If the word ends in ISM chances are its bad as history has shown. I prefer Freedom <-no ISM.

Oh and that also includes Imperialism.


http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5830/georgebushpressconferen.jpg
America will stand up to the enemies of Freedomism!

(Damn, I thought I just made up a cool new word but just discovered someone beat me already to "Freedomism"...) :damn:

[redsocialist]

I'm here.....I'm here. What seems to be the problem? South Korea is implementing a forward-thinking attitude to internet speed, connectivity, and bandwidth? And they are ahead of us? Troubling.

Diagnosis: Though it is not unknown for the occassional government program in some nation, somewhere, to get something right, time will tell as to whether this is a wise move on the part of the S. Korean government.

Remember when Japan thought subsidizing robotics would be a great idea? They developed a lot of fascinating innovations in the field, but look where it got them as a nation. Now they are struggling to stay competitive against other Asian markets that weren't quite so enlightened but had a more practical attitude.

Now, look where their efforts got us. Nice tech at bargain prices with relatively little effort on our part because there is never any demand for what they develop when they develop it. They paid for their attempt to bypass the natural progression of free exchange in more ways than one. Worse, they paid for it as a nation because it was a national initiative. What should have been an impressive series of market triumphs was cut tragically short by something as simple as basic supply and demand. The case for state foresight in new industries has already been made.

On to the US part of the equation. There was a time, not so long ago, when the US government still thought it was their onus to facilitate telecommunications. Anyone alive at the time will remember what a spectacular failure that was. The "deregulation"(read: limited, licensed, privatization with heavy regulation) of telecommunications led to a worldwide revolution in digital communications. The effect was so profound that we now have debates over the tremendous availability of data, whether it is to children or the quality of information or the ability and need of the average citizen to utilize it. The case for privatization, in any capacity, is already made.

So how does this all tie together? Well, what we're essentially looking at here, given the heavy regulation of US telecom industries under the FCC and the telecommuncications act of 1996, which was supposedly deregulatory but managed to somehow add nearly 10,000 pages of regulation to the registrar, is a match between a state initiative and a state intitiative. To put it simply, the US set a bar on what telecom industries could do, and South Korea has directed state resources at raising the bar, possibly without regard to the consequences. Perhaps they will be successful, or perhaps they will end up the victim of yet another unintended result of cramming people's own money down their throats in the name of a supposedly greater good.

Prescription: Remove taxes, spurious regulations, and subsidies for US business of any type (or at least anything that was lobbied for) and actually force them to compete by removing state trade barriers. It will cure what ails you. Side-effects may include complaining special interests and unemployed, politically-inclined rhetoriticians.

Interesting post. However I would have to say privatization is a way to destroy an economy as Regan's policies destroyed the US economy, by killing the manufacturing basis, and when the IMF told Argentina to privatize they're assets, it destroyed that economy as well, completely. Riots were in the streets everywhere, though there was a positive side effect. Workers occupied the factories and to this day continue to do so. Along with special interests and imperialist propagandists; I don't think you will have any luck against those interests unless there is revolution. And USA literally has a lot of work to do.

You need to wipe out your congress, and start over. I recommend having public control over decisions, and regulations. The economic mistake USA made is letting its MNC's run like wild animals raping the world's resources, getting bigger and bigger, until the government politicians want to get the regulation back and introduce all these bureaucratic measures. This turns into corporatism or fascism, as your government only serves corporate interests. There needs to be a mass popular uprising of Americans to take control of these largest institutions because they are the one's destroying your country. Thats my take, but I think its to late, as the military industry, banks, IMF etc have all the control, and your country will go bankrupt with 15 trillion in debt owing to China. Corporate America will profit from it, because they'll just buy Every asset out there, probably wiping out small businesses, and the middle class will suffer. Of course that also brings the chance for Revolution

[Freiwillige]

Interesting post. However I would have to say privatization is a way to destroy an economy as Regan's policies destroyed the US economy, by killing the manufacturing basis

You do realize that Reaganomics were a success not a failure. He inherited a depression and left office with the economy in a boom. Now how is that a failure?

[flatsixes]

Yeah, man. Eat the rich!
:har:

[Penguin]

Nazism, Communism, Socialism, colonialism.....here is a clue, If the word ends in ISM chances are its bad as history has shown. I prefer Freedom <-no ISM.

Oh and that also includes Imperialism.

Freiwillige, I usually respect your opinion, though we also often have different points of view, but this time you went too far.

I can never, ever understand the hate against magnetism! :nope:
Do you know how magnets were mocked, burned, prosecuted over the course of the time?
Shame on all you anti-magnetism people!

When the last magnet has been demagnetized, you will find that you can't lift your keys out of the drain with a piece of wood!

[redsocialist]

You do realize that Reaganomics were a success not a failure. He inherited a depression and left office with the economy in a boom. Now how is that a failure?

Are you serious? And left economy in a boom... Okay for corporate America and the imperialist elite it was great. But what about all the spending, putting your country in its biggest debt "investing" in the war machine. Or funding/training the terrorists in Nicaragua. That all costs money no? I bit of Irony no?
I gotta say though its amazing how the right wing middle class will actually go rally to fight against they're own interests

It doesn't take a socialist to see the failures of Regan. Did the exact opposite of what "freedom's" is. Anyone on the so called "left" in america would agree with me here.
:har:

[Takeda Shingen]

Are you serious? And left economy in a boom... Okay for corporate America and the imperialist elite it was great. But what about all the spending, putting your country in its biggest debt "investing" in the war machine. Or funding/training the terrorists in Nicaragua. That all costs money no? I bit of Irony no?
I gotta say though its amazing how the right wing middle class will actually go rally to fight against they're own interests

:har:

I lived through that era. Yes, it was a boom.

[mookiemookie]

You do realize that Reaganomics were a success not a failure. He inherited a depression and left office with the economy in a boom. Now how is that a failure?

A success for who? The income gap between the ultra rich and everyone else in America widened. Wages for the average worker went down. Welfare rolls grew. The nation’s homeownership rate fell. Don't pee on my head and tell me it's wealth trickling down.

Forgive me for breaking out one of my all time favorites:

http://thedaysrant.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/reaganomics.jpg

[redsocialist]

A success for who? The income gap between the ultra rich and everyone else in America widened. Wages for the average worker went down. The nation’s homeownership rate fell. Don't pee on my head and tell me it's wealth trickling down.

Forgive me for breaking out one of my all time favorites:

http://thedaysrant.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/reaganomics.jpg

Hahah, see it doesn't take a socialist to see the failure of Reganomics

Oh, mookie you should'v list the quote of Regan speaking on behalf of the Taliban :03:
:haha::haha::har:

[Freiwillige]

I too lived in that time period. Jobs were created, Unemployment was almost destroyed.

I would rather be unequal in employment than equal in the unemployment line!

(RANT ON)

And on that note, I get so sick of hearing about how racist, rich, imperialist the good Ol' US of A is with its right wing (NAZI) republican (AGAIN NAZI) policies.

When it is from the left I hear constantly about Class struggle, RACISM everywhere, The rich vs the poor etc.

Who fuels hate?

I grew up with Punk rockers who were either Anarchists or Communists ranting about the rich and class struggle and evil Reagan. And I can tell you most of us at the time weren't motivated to shower let alone work.

I've been there and I have done that and I even got a Forking T-shirt.
And I can tell you that if that's the revolution you seek call me a counter revolutionary.:arrgh!:

(RANT OFF)

[Freiwillige]

Freiwillige, I usually respect your opinion, though we also often have different points of view, but this time you went too far.

I can never, ever understand the hate against magnetism! :nope:
Do you know how magnets were mocked, burned, prosecuted over the course of the time?
Shame on all you anti-magnetism people!

When the last magnet has been demagnetized, you will find that you can't lift your keys out of the drain with a piece of wood!

Yes your right of course Magnetism is a good thing, My apologies if I offended you friend.:D

[TLAM Strike]

Freiwillige, I usually respect your opinion, though we also often have different points of view, but this time you went too far.

I can never, ever understand the hate against magnetism! :nope:
Do you know how magnets were mocked, burned, prosecuted over the course of the time?
Shame on all you anti-magnetism people!

When the last magnet has been demagnetized, you will find that you can't lift your keys out of the drain with a piece of wood!
Not only that but I heard that he is against Animism, Atticism, Anglicism, Altruism, Autoeroticism, Athleticism and that's just the 'A's! :stare:

[frau kaleun]

Where does he stand on Animal Magnetism?

[Freiwillige]

I surrender.

[flatsixes]

No! Please continue! This is a lot funnier than reality.
To each according to his needs, man.
:rock:

[frau kaleun]

No! Please continue! This is a lot funnier than reality.
To each according to his needs, man.
:rock:

In that case, I need a drink. :O:

[Freiwillige]

I'm Buying you who are not Mein Frau:()1:

[frau kaleun]

If yer buyin' I'm drinkin'! :()1:

[yubba]

Where does he stand on Animal Magnetism?
I got that everything around me rusts or I attract all the wrong people I call myself a S--t magnet.

[Freiwillige]

If yer buyin' I'm drinkin'! :()1:

Alright just hollar when you get to Phoenix.:O:

[Sailor Steve]

By the time I get to Phoenix, she'll be drinkin'...no, wait...that's not right.

[frau kaleun]

By the time I get to Phoenix, she'll be drinkin'...no, wait...that's not right.

You know, in this case, yeah... I kinda think it is. :O:

[Sailor Steve]

Dang! Another strike against me! :cry:

[Freiwillige]

By the time I get to Phoenix, she'll be drinkin'...no, wait...that's not right.

I think I heard a country song like that, Come to think of it most of them.

[Sailor Steve]

I think I heard a country song like that, Come to think of it most of them.
That's not a country song at all. Not one single pickup, dog or trailer.

Amateurs. :nope:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Interesting post.
Thanks:up: Most of my posts are either lengthy or bad jokes or both, so it's nice to be interesting.

However I would have to say privatization is a way to destroy an economy as Regan's policies destroyed the US economy, by killing the manufacturing basis, and when the IMF told Argentina to privatize their assets, it destroyed that economy as well, completely.

Ah, I see the problem here. You're operating under the classic assumption that manufacturing is in and of itself a good thing. That's an attitude typical of supporters of socialist agendas. I don't mean to be condescending by saying that, I just lack the vernacular to make the point clear and succinct in a polite fashion. The best I can do as a former leftist myself is to explain why I have drawn the conclusions I have and let you make your own judgements. Someone did that for me, once.

First, I'd like you to ask yourself why it is that you believe that manufacturing is a critical component of the workers' well-being. Is it because manufacturing is important to self-sufficiency? Is it because controlling the means of production will empower the workers? Is it because the capitalists are standing on the backs of the less-fortunate and greedily gobbiling up a disproportionate share of the world's wealth? Or do you just think capitalism is inefficient? Personally, I subscribed to the school of thought that focused upon income disparity; in fact, the wealth gap still bothers me, but what are your reasons? Odds are they include at least one of the above and that they are reasonable opinions.

Unfortunately, the world doesn't quite work that way. Let's begin with your Reagan example. I'm not a fan of the guy, myself, but for different reasons. You claim that he destroyed the US manufacturing base. Let's just assume that's true so we don't get bogged down. What happened after that? The US economy grew more powerful. In fact, just a few years later, under a Republican congress, the US economy experienced unprecedented growth, mostly in sectors that were deregulated or minimally-regulated to begin with. Median income went up. The standard of living went up. There were more goods and they were more readily available than they had been in the years preceding Reagan. Clearly, the manufacturing sector is not integral to prosperity.

Now, let's put a hypothetical President X in Reagan's place. We'll give him fiat power over industry and assume that he has the plight of the workers at heart. He focuses upon manufacturing jobs and ensures the workers are well-paid and cared-for. He also makes sure that CEOs don't make too much. Disregarding the complete lack of motivation that being unconditionally provided-for often engenders, we now we have legions of prosperous, united, empowered workers and citizens toiling away and showing the capitalists how it's done. There's just one small problem: Who is going to buy their goods, read "pay for all that"? I'm curious to know how you'd fix that problem.

US manufacturing, in the sense that you mean it, died because the standard of living in the US began to exceed the income that producing and selling a finished product could provide. It didn't disappear, it just changed into something else, as befit the needs of the market.

The manufacturing that you refer to remains, at great public expense, because people like you do not see that they're being had by the workers themselves, and their bosses. Socialism necessitates government, and government necessitates power. Who do you think is going to get that power? The people? How much time and effort are you prepared to invest in ensuring that widget-makers are being treated fairly? The widget-makers have all the time and effort in the world to invest in making their case, especially when they have a right to the fruits of your labor, and vice-versa. Lawmakers generally have very little experience in the widget market or yours, and you'd trust them to make decisions for you? Are we putting 2 and 2 together yet?

Like it or not, the world is not a fair place. I'm sure you have some great idea for social equality, but the fact of the matter is that you are not smarter than everyone else, and everyone else is not as fair-minded as you. They will figure out a way to co-opt any kind of socialist system, no matter what you do. The best you can hope for is free-market exchange, where the choice rests with the consumer, as do the benefits.

Riots were in the streets everywhere, though there was a positive side effect. Workers occupied the factories and to this day continue to do so.
And Argentina is still a crappy place to live to this day. Glad it's working out for them. The IMF is little better than a government when it comes to policymaking.


Along with special interests and imperialist propagandists; I don't think you will have any luck against those interests unless there is revolution. And USA literally has a lot of work to do.

I agree with everything except for the "imperialists" part. That's socialist for "winning" and ignores the issue. I can see how some would view the US as imperialists because we don't play fair when it comes to free trade, impeding or promoting the trade of other nations as our special interests or people see fit, but complaining about it or mislabeling it doesn't help illustrate the problem.

You need to wipe out your congress, and start over. I recommend having public control over decisions, and regulations.
Are you insane? We can't even achieve anything remotely resembling a consensus on this forum, let alone in a nation of 300-something million people, and none of us have our livleyhoods tied up in this venue.

Furthermore, how can you complain about special interests and then promote public rule and regulation? How do you think we got special interests in the first place? Remember, this country is supposedly governed by ironclad constitutional law. The only limiting factor on people with a common interest getting together is the constitution, and look what's happened to it so far!

The economic mistake USA made is letting its MNC's run like wild animals raping the world's resources, getting bigger and bigger, until the government politicians want to get the regulation back and introduce all these bureaucratic measures. This turns into corporatism or fascism, as your government only serves corporate interests.
Again, you know this, but you somehow still advocate popular rule. Who do you think corporations are comprised of? I said before that you'd been had, this is a perfect example of just how badly. You're not standing up for workers rights, you're just supporting another special interest. Worse, you're actually making it easier for special interests by removing the whole "constitutional law" thing.


There needs to be a mass popular uprising of Americans to take control of these largest institutions because they are the one's destroying your country. Thats my take, but I think its to late, as the military industry, banks, IMF etc have all the control, and your country will go bankrupt with 15 trillion in debt owing to China.

Oh? And who did that? Was it private industry, operating at a profit by exchanging goods or services for capital? Or was it the people's government?

Corporate America will profit from it, because they'll just buy Every asset out there, probably wiping out small businesses, and the middle class will suffer. Of course that also brings the chance for Revolution

Forgive me, but I'm not going into this at the moment. I think I've said everything you need to hear. Again, I apologize if any of it comes across as brusque, it's just my way of speaking. If we were to discuss it face-to-face, I'm sure you wouldn't find my tone disagreeable.

[UnderseaLcpl]

That's not a country song at all. Not one single pickup, dog or trailer.

Amateurs. :nope:

Or mama. Or trains. Or gettin drunk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAOVRkSCWmg

(@3:05)

[redsocialist]

Thanks:up: Most of my posts are either lengthy or bad jokes or both, so it's nice to be interesting.

Too lengthy for me and though I'm not quite the intellectual as you, the world does not buy the corporate imperialist propaganda and what this establishment plans to force upon them.

[redsocialist]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/technology/22iht-broadband22.html?_r=2&ref=technology

Prediction: "But!! But!! South Korea is so much more urban than the U.S.!!!" will be said..

just wondering by any chance are you a trotskyist?

[GoldenRivet]

On the point of Reaganomics being a failure...

In the 1980's i was just a kid... but i remember well the things i had to be thankful for.

between the time Reagan took office and the time he left it, my parents who together earned maybe $35K a year combined had seen about a 1400% increase in their income

When Reagan took office in 1981...

my father worked jobs in about 6 different area cities... my mother worked mostly nights and during the day i rode the school bus to a podunk low rent school.

Dad drove a cream and rust colored El Camino

Mom drove a banged up 1979 SAAB ... a 900 i think it was.

by the time Reagan was up for re-election...

Dad had ditched that old El Camino in favor of a 1984 Corvette. By 86-87 he added had a Porsche 911, a 1969 Shelby GT500 and a Toyota Land Cruiser to his "collection"

mom snagged a nice Mercedes

we also moved from our modest little 2200 square foot home when my folks purchased 14 acres in the country with a nice 7900 square foot ranch style home on it.

I didnt ride the bus to school anymore because 1) mom didnt have to work nights anymore and 2) i was now at a nice, yet small private school.

Our lifestyle dramatically changed in the mid 1980s to say the least.

did everyone experience this? no.. of course not, but i do lend a fair bit of credit to the Reagan policies.

When he came on TV and spoke... we listened. He had our respect and admiration - and it was the last time in my life that i recall really really liking a president.

[Hottentot]

just wondering by any chance are you a trotskyist?

Now there's an interesting question :hmmm:.

[redsocialist]

Now there's an interesting question :hmmm:.

Hey, this post is not dirrected to you only the OP with his quote from Trotsky.

[redsocialist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoppuJOJw1Q&feature=player_embedded
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-bMsyAxDDEOY/TVkkbkAJKqI/AAAAAAAACFI/JKHNdVAEhuY/s1600/Reagan+wi+taliban.jpg
Ronald Regan with the Taliban

[Takeda Shingen]

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/myImages/2005/10/17/mugiagain.jpg

[redsocialist]

http://boskolives.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/sad-bush.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

http://boskolives.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/sad-bush.jpg

Photoshopped, and not even particularly well at that. I established through the series of photos that the relations between Gadaffi and Chavez were not a mere formality. That was no state department visit. These two were friends; they admired each other. As does Chavez admire Mugabe and Ahmadinejad. Level water always finds itself.

[redsocialist]

Photoshopped, and not even particularly well at that. I established through the series of photos that the relations between Gadaffi and Chavez were not a mere formality. That was no state department visit. These two were friends; they admired each other. As does Chavez admire Mugabe and Ahmadinejad. Level water always finds itself.

Hahah really and your point? Do I need to pull up pictures of all the US-Backed dictators which Directly funded/supported or trained armies for them? Do I need to pull up photos of all the wonderful freedom loving military Juntas your government has been supporting/installed? Pull up pictures of all these fine men bellow---------v

Abacha, General Sani ----------------------------Nigeria
Amin, Idi ------------------------------------------Uganda
Banzer, Colonel Hugo ---------------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio --------------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal ----------------------------Brunei
Botha, P.W. ---------------------------------------South Africa
Branco, General Humberto ---------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul -------------------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio -----------------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek ---------------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo ------------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo -------------------------------El Salvador
Diem, Ngo Dihn ---------------------------------Vietnam
Doe, General Samuel ----------------------------Liberia
Duvalier, Francois --------------------------------Haiti
Duvalier, Jean Claude-----------------------------Haiti
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ---------------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco -----------------------Spain
Hitler, Adolf ---------------------------------------Germany
Hassan II-------------------------------------------Morocco
Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador
Mobutu Sese Seko -------------------------------Zaire
Noriega, General Manuel ------------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut --------------------------------------Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ---------------Iran
Papadopoulos, George --------------------------Greece
Park Chung Hee ---------------------------------South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto ---------------------Chile
Pol Pot---------------------------------------------Cambodia
Rabuka, General Sitiveni ------------------------Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios ---------------------Guatemala
Salassie, Halie ------------------------------------Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------------Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. --------------------------Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. -------------------------Nicaragua
Smith, Ian ----------------------------------------Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo -----------------------------Paraguay
Suharto, General ---------------------------------Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas -----------------------Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael ------------------Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed ----------------------Pakistan

The hypocrisy you show spreads ignorance like the plague.

[Penguin]

Too lengthy for me and though I'm not quite the intellectual as you, the world does not buy the corporate imperialist propaganda and what this establishment plans to force upon them.

:har:
You post videos with a length of several minutes, uncommented links to tons of texts and then back off when someone takes the time to answer to you personally and adress your statements?
What a pussy! :nope:
It takes 6-10 minutes to read and comprehend UnderseaLcpl's text. It certainly took him more time to type it. And your only answer is an unreflected parole? You claim to think on your own while the other world can't?
You are really a joke, not worth any discussion!


@UnderseaLcpl:
I would really like to pick up the gauntlet and answer to your post, especially since you wrote pleasantly unpolemic - and since you come from the left and went to the dark side :O:.
Unfortunately I do not have the time at the moment to answer to it properly (= more than paroles); lefties gotta earn their money, too...
I will answer to you at the latest on Sunday, but be aware that I will be out on a drinking tour on Saturday - after listening to a concert of an anarchist folk & polka singer :DL - I like weird music. However I can certainly think on my own. But you can expect me to be a little polemic due to unsoberness reasons...:03:

[Takeda Shingen]

Hahah really and your point?

I thought that my point was evident, but since you clearly haven't been following the course of your own conversation, I'll sum it up with the Cliff's Notes version.

You came to the forums damning the United States of America as decadent, corrupt and imperialist, in that quaint sort of paleo-socialist sort of way. You then proceeded to elevate Hugo Chavez's Venezulean regime as the alternative; an alternative that you presented as pure, pure as the new fallen snow. Chavez was the freer of the oppressed, supporter of liberty. However, as it is shown, Chavez simply offers a different sort of corruption. He and allies are oppressors, but they are not American oppressors.

Therein lies point. That Chavez is not under the American flag is the requirement that you hold. It is the only requirement that you hold. Human rights, democracy, capitalism, what despots one is in bed with; these things are, at best, secondary features. What you desire is anyone who is not an American. You'll cling to that, as your argument has already fallen all around you, and done so repeatedly. Such is the sign of immaturity.

So yes, the United States of America has been corrupt in foreign affairs, and been in bed with some pretty nasty guys. However, Chavez is equally corrupt, and in bed with some pretty nasty guys, albeit different ones. What you are saying is you prefer one style of corruption to another, and that is no argument worth hearing.

[redsocialist]

:har:
You post videos with a length of several minutes, uncommented links to tons of texts and then back off when someone takes the time to answer to you personally and adress your statements?
What a pussy! :nope:
It takes 6-10 minutes to read and comprehend UnderseaLcpl's text. It certainly took him more time to type it. And your only answer is an unreflected parole? You claim to think on your own while the other world can't?
You are really a joke, not worth any discussion!


@UnderseaLcpl:
I would really like to pick up the gauntlet and answer to your post, especially since you wrote pleasantly unpolemic - and since you come from the left and went to the dark side :O:.
Unfortunately I do not have the time at the moment to answer to it properly (= more than paroles); lefties gotta earn their money, too...
I will answer to you at the latest on Sunday, but be aware that I will be out on a drinking tour on Saturday - after listening to a concert of an anarchist folk & polka singer :DL - I like weird music. However I can certainly think on my own. But you can expect me to be a little polemic due to unsoberness reasons...:03:


Haha, I'm a pussy because I didn't try to debate a petti-bourgeois intellectual? If I really cared so much, I would call up Noami Klein. Hey guess what Penguin?? Its not going to change a damn thing, and like I said the world will not put up with the BS these corporate imperialists try to force upon them. You really are clueless aren't you :yep: Btw Penguin attacking me and calling me a pussy sounds like a 15 year old child, maybe act a little more than your age? As for Undersea, once he said "government" better than IMF, I decided it would be a waste of time to rebuttle such an arrogant and outrageous claim.

[flatsixes]

And if you carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow
[http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c_kTDpOL1cc/0.jpg

[Takeda Shingen]

Haha, I'm a pussy because I didn't try to debate a petti-bourgeois intellectual?

While I don't agree with his use of the term, I would concede that it is the root of the problem that you are having on this forum. Anytime that anyone tries to engage you in a serious manner, or ask any questions of you, your response is to call names, post an image and then run off. By doing so, you make it hard for people to take you or your views seriously.

[Hottentot]

Hey, this post is not dirrected to you only the OP with his quote from Trotsky.

Hey hey and welcome to a forum. First: if you want privacy, use a PM. Second: I don't remember Trotsky ever saying: Prediction: "But!! But!! South Korea is so much more urban than the U.S.!!!" will be said. Third: and I repeat, an interesting question. Maybe you understand when I put in in the visual language (http://img59.imageshack.us/f/posterlf.jpg/) you seem to prefer.

I'm just more and more amused with your choice of key phrases, that's all.

[redsocialist]

So yes, the United States of America has been corrupt in foreign affairs, and been in bed with some pretty nasty guys. However, Chavez is equally corrupt, and in bed with some pretty nasty guys, albeit different ones.

:haha::har::haha:
The USA has supported far worse than any of those dictators chavez's "personal relationships". How about this reasoning. Ever wonder why he would have "personal relationships" with those people? Did it ever occur to you for economic reasons, military aid etc etc... You lost this argument ever since you started puting pictures up of Chavez's allies or political friends. There are Americans in your own country that support Chavez, Oliver Stone a movie producer ring a bell? Is he this evil corrupted killer? You can't attack Chavez by putting pictures up of all his "evil friends". It's pathetic comparing all the pictures of US officials with the many dictators it has done busienss Directly with. The only difference, is most of Chavez's evil friends, doesn't have direct ties to the Crimes they commit. You think those weapons Ghadaffi, used on his people were Venezulean? They were US-made and sold in 2002 by Bush
:haha::har:
Seriously, you can do better than that surely,

[Takeda Shingen]

:haha::har::haha:
The USA has supported far worse than any of those dictators chavez's "personal relationships". How about this reasoning. Ever wonder why he would have "personal relationships" with those people? Did it ever occur to you for economic reasons, military aid etc etc... You lost this argument ever since you started puting pictures up of Chavez's allies or political friends. There are Americans in your own country that support Chavez, Oliver Stone a movie producer ring a bell? Is he this evil corrupted killer? You can't attack Chavez by putting pictures up of all his "evil friends". It's pathetic comparing all the pictures of US officials with the many dictators it has done busienss Directly with. The only difference, is most of Chavez's evil friends, doesn't have direct ties to the Crimes they commit. You think those weapons Ghadaffi, used on his people were Venezulean? They were US-made and sold in 2002 by Bush
:haha::har:
Seriously, you can do better than that surely,

You make it too easy for me. Once again, you demostrate that you are willing to overlook Chavez's record simply because he is not of the United States of America. You've now rendered yourself two-dimesional; a mere caricature. What is most sad is that this argument has been over for days, and yet you continue to fight as though it is not lost; flooding the forums with needless inflamatory rhetoric.

Silly.

[mookiemookie]

I decided it would be a waste of time to rebuttle such an arrogant and outrageous claim.

But the thing is you don't seem to rebut *any* claim. You've got your beliefs, and you don't seem to want to have an honest discussion about them. You just post some "I'm right and you're stupid" (thank you, Sailor Steve) response and that's it.

That's not very constructive or entertaining.

[redsocialist]

While I don't agree with his use of the term, I would concede that it is the root of the problem that you are having on this forum. Anytime that anyone tries to engage you in a serious manner, or ask any questions of you, your response is to call names, post an image and then run off. By doing so, you make it hard for people to take you or your views seriously.

Okay fair enough. how about this. I will seriously debate a libertarian on here respectfully. I really do not want to come across as an a-hole, and remember I do not hate the American people. Though i think a lump some of them are brainwashed beyond belief, I do not have a hatred, even to August. Also, regearding that post I'm not debating someone who "prefers IMF to control a country" vs having a government. We can just say "he won" whoo hooo for him

[the_tyrant]

You make it too easy for me. Once again, you demostrate that you are willing to overlook Chavez's record simply because he is not of the United States of America. You've now rendered yourself two-dimesional; a mere caricature. What is most sad is that this argument has been over for days, and yet you continue to fight as though it is not lost; flooding the forums with needless inflamatory rhetoric.

Silly.

Just another teenager who was brainwashed by commie sources:nope:

[Takeda Shingen]

Okay fair enough. how about this. I will seriously debate a libertarian on here respectfully. I really do not want to come across as an a-hole, and remember I do not hate the American people. Though i think a lump some of them are brainwashed beyond belief, I do not have a hatred, even to August. Also, regearding that post I'm not debating someone who "prefers IMF to control a country" vs having a government. We can just say "he won" whoo hooo for him

You start off well enough, but then you go on to take jabs as people and end by saying that you're taking your ball and going home. Come on man, be reasonable; no one's going to feel sorry for you here. If you don't want to defend your views, then don't post them in the first place. It's an internet forum; that's what it is for.

[redsocialist]

You make it too easy for me. Once again, you demostrate that you are willing to overlook Chavez's record simply because he is not of the United States of America. You've now rendered yourself two-dimesional; a mere caricature. What is most sad is that this argument has been over for days, and yet you continue to fight as though it is not lost; flooding the forums with needless inflamatory rhetoric.

Silly.

Ha, I do not worship Chavez. Do I think he's perfect? No. Do you I think he's done some bad things and made mistakes? Yes. But do I think Venezula was better off with Carmona, or US-backed dictators like Perez during the CIA coup in 2002? HELL NO. Hugo Chavez has stoop up to the Washington establishment, the IMF, World Bank, EU Bankers, and US corporations trying to exploit Latin America for they're own. There are several accomplishments of the Bolivarian revolution, and they are taking a seperate path, against and instead of being ruled like pawn from the neoliberal establishment.

[Takeda Shingen]

Ha, I do not worship Chavez. Do I think he's perfect? No. Do you I think he's done some bad things and made mistakes? Yes.

It really stinks when people make a strawman argument against you, doesn't it? That's what you've been doing to a lot of people around here. All I did today was to turn it around and do it to you. Of course you weren't worshiping Chavez. Of course you don't think he's a great guy. Of course you don't like Gadaffi, Mugabe and Ahmadenijad. I just wanted to give you a taste of the style of argument that you've been giving to everyone else; pictures, inflamatory rhetoric, name calling and the venerable strawman. It makes you pretty mad when someone does that to you, doesn't it? Well, it makes them pretty mad too.

Utlimately, if you treat people with respect, they'll return it, especially around here.

[redsocialist]

It really stinks when people make a strawman argument against you, doesn't it? That's what you've been doing to a lot of people around here. All I did today was to turn it around and do it to you. Of course you weren't worshiping Chavez. Of course you don't think he's a great guy. Of course you don't like Gadaffi, Mugabe and Ahmadenijad. I just wanted to give you a taste of the style of argument that you've been giving to everyone else; pictures, inflamatory rhetoric, name calling and the venerable strawman. It makes you pretty mad when someone does that to you, doesn't it? Well, it makes them pretty mad too.

Utlimately, if you treat people with respect, they'll return it, especially around here.

I have gone over the edge I admit that.

[redsocialist]

And if you carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow
[http://i.ytimg.com/vi/c_kTDpOL1cc/0.jpg

Haha ok here we go again. Bringing up pictures of the victims for Mao Tse-Tung. So now I have to turn it around on you and show the victims of your CIA Puppet Pol Pot.

http://images.travelpod.com/users/straykat6/1.1275570380.victims-of-pol-pot.jpg

Care to go any further?
Didn't think so

[Hottentot]

I like shiny pictures too (http://img825.imageshack.us/i/poster2v.jpg/)

[redsocialist]

I like shiny pictures too (http://img825.imageshack.us/i/poster2v.jpg/)

:06:

http://coffeeforclosers.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/handwashing-001.jpg?w=528&h=800

[frau kaleun]

Dis thread needz moar:

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs6/1985977_o.gif

[Hottentot]

:06:

Maybe you'd do well to read your own poster and spend less time in the pub?

[redsocialist]

Dis thread needz moar:

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs6/1985977_o.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6DthX9aCdq0/S_qWZms2V8I/AAAAAAAAAnA/j07SXbHq2bM/s640/nyet.jpg

[Sailor Steve]

Okay fair enough. how about this. I will seriously debate a libertarian on here respectfully.
UnderseaLCPL gave you that opportunity, as that's exactly what he is. Go back and address his argument, point by point, and maybe you'll start to earn some credibility.

[August]

just wondering by any chance are you a trotskyist?


What's with your constant attempts to classify people?

[August]

Ronald Regan with the Taliban

A: It's ReAgan (you socialists do seem to be an uneducated lot)
B: The Taliban did not exist when Reagan was president. Those are Mujahadeen. You know, the Commie killers?

[Penguin]

Haha, I'm a pussy because I didn't try to debate a petti-bourgeois intellectual?

Yes, exactly


Btw, you do not need to be an intellectual to debate a topic. This is exactly the thing I see in communist leaflets/papers. They write in a style that the ordinary public, with no studies in sociology and politics, have no clue what they talk about.


Hey guess what Penguin?? Its not going to change a damn thing,

At least here, you show signs of realism.
Guess what? All we debate here won't change a thing, but maybe - if you have not subscribed closed-minded thinking - somebody thinks about the arguments of the other side. If you stick to a little box of paroles, it won't get you far. I would never claim to know everything and close my mind to other opinions. There are some conservative voices here which I can really respect. Why? Because I am man enough to have my own opinions, man enough to admit when I am wrong and man enough to open my ears to others.


and like I said the world will not put up with the BS these corporate imperialists try to force upon them.

i don't see how undersea tried to force his opinion on you, but maybe I didn't see him with his imperialist CIA-backed cowboys knocking on your front door..


You really are clueless aren't you :yep: Btw Penguin attacking me and calling me a pussy sounds like a 15 year old child, maybe act a little more than your age?

How do you know I am not 15? Right, because I stated my age here on various occasions...
I come from the real world, kid. I am a member of the working-class, no blue collar worker, I wear a checkered one today. Remember: one of the guys for whom you claim to speak for. When I talk to collegues, pussy is one of the nicer words - and that's when we talk friendly to each other...
And I call someone pussy when he behaves like one, in the net and in the world outside of the computer.

<- to your left is a button to report a post, silencing unwanted opinions is something people like you seem to like, eh?

[Penguin]

A: It's ReAgan (you socialists do seem to be an uneducated lot)
B: The Taliban did not exist when Reagan was president. Those are Mujahadeen. You know, the Commie killers?

As much as I dislike Ronnie Ragen ;), August is right there.
See red, not hard to admit when someone with other political believes than oneself is right!
This does not mean that I support the arms trade to them.
Some mujahedeen became Taliban later, some not - hope the Northern Alliance rings a bell.

[redsocialist]

http://info-wars.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/wash_dees.jpg

[Weiss Pinguin]

Very pretty :yep: Would you care to expand on your points?

[the_tyrant]

http://info-wars.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/wash_dees.jpg

Its not like your any better, just replace the capitalist media with socialist media

[Takeda Shingen]

http://info-wars.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/wash_dees.jpg

See, this is what I was talking about earlier. Do not expect to be taken seriously until you become capable of real discussion. Otherwise, we can post all the silly little web graphics that we can find:

http://contexts.org/socimages/files/2009/03/m-and-m-red-propaganda-poster1.jpg

We can all play this stupid little game.

[Freiwillige]

Even the Nazi's got some things right:yep:

http://www.facinghistory.org/node/799

[Sailor Steve]

Thanks for reminding me of a favorite from my own youth:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Idratherbered.jpg?t=1298684465

[Weiss Pinguin]

Thanks for reminding me of a favorite from my own youth:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Idratherbered.jpg?t=1298684465
I can be any color you want, baby :D

[yubba]

Tell the commies to get a job and quit destoying mine.:down:

[Schroeder]

How are they destroying your job when they don't even have one themselves?:hmmm:

[Hottentot]

^^
Reminds me of a conversation I once overheard. A guy said to his friend: "[Censored] immigrants come here and take all our jobs!" And his pal replied: "Yeah and they come here only to live with our tax money, I wish they'd get some jobs and be useful!!". :har:

[UnderseaLcpl]

What's with your constant attempts to classify people?

How are you supposed to have class warfare if you don't classify people?

[tater]

Someone cite me a communist built car better than any "market" car available during the same time period that I care to pick. That'd be just one of many examples (ie: virtually any commie product would be worse, and if you put a value on human lives, I suppose they'd also be grossly more expensive (murdering their own people is the only business communism is actually good at)).

I saw a few prime examples on Top Gear once... funny episode.

[Sailor Steve]

How are you supposed to have class warfare if you don't classify people?
This talk about class isn't very classy. :O:

[Growler]

Someone cite me a communist built car better than any "market" car available during the same time period that I care to pick. That'd be just one of many examples (ie: virtually any commie product would be worse, and if you put a value on human lives, I suppose they'd also be grossly more expensive (murdering their own people is the only business communism is actually good at)).

I saw a few prime examples on Top Gear once... funny episode.


Enjoy your Trabant.:rotfl2:

[UnderseaLcpl]

This talk about class isn't very classy. :O:

Indeed, it is classless.

[Stealth Hunter]

Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ---------------Iran

The Shah is still someone I'm divided on. At times, I liked him; at others, not so much. He did do a lot for the infrastructure, industrial base, and education system of Iran, but at the same time he also used a lot of really brutal tactics against anyone who made criticisms of him later on in his reign- during the Dhofar Rebellion especially-- and he acted as little more than a puppet of the United States and United Kingdom.

He was right to do some of what he did though. Really, the only thing Iran had going for it at the time (and still to this day) was oil. He was one of the few who actually reasoned that Iran would have to turn to other methods of earning income asides from oil, because, inevitably, the oil wells would run dry. Hence why he tried to educate the people and modernize the country to make it a goods production contender in the future.

I'm still more fond of Dr. Mossadegh, who started to do the same thing before he was coup'd. It was a good, honest effort, though. What's unfortunate, and really very sad, is that it was over nothing more than oil. Well, there's that, and then what the country has become today as a direct consequence of his untimely removal.