Public Insensitivity? Or is Enough Enough?

[Krauter]

I was meaning to write this topic for a while now, but it kind of fell to the back of my mind with exams and all. But after making a trip to the Olympic stadium a few days ago this topic came back to mind.

What I'm wondering about is on the topic of the homeless people who beg and ask for money at any opportunity.

I'll put a little perspective in this. Here in Montreal, I need to use the Metro (ie: Subway system and bus system) everyday. Be it to get to school, groceries or whatnot. Every time I go to the closest subway station there is always at least 3-4 beggers there.

That's fine, every cities probably got that. But, these I find different. For example; when I visited Vancouver, I saw homeless people begging, but they just sat there with a cup.
Now in Montreal, I see at least two or three homeless people with amputated limbs (ie: They wait for you inside the subway station with their shirts off and pants rolled up so you can see their limbs). At first I was repelled a little, now I find myself not caring or getting a little angry I see them. The situation is similar with other people as well who won't even look at all or spare a second glance.

My whole meaning to this thread (which to me sounds kind of rambling on..) is:

a) Who is in the 'wrong' here? Me/Population; for not paying attention or feeling nothing towards these people. Or the homeless begger who is obviously attempting to use his amputated limbs as a means to get money. (Theres also a man who either has dimentia or is just.. special, who screams incoherently at you asking for... food? money? I don't know.. I still don't feel anything towards him but a little bit of frustration).

and

b) Is this an example of people being in such close proximity that we don't view each other as people but merely objects anymore. As well as the whole Western thing that gore doesn't really turn our stomachs as much as it does in Europe?

Cheers

Krauter

[Platapus]

Within the laws, they have a right to beg for money
you have a right to not give them money.

No one is in the "wrong" here.

It is only when one tries to interfere with the other's right that there is a problem.

Personally, I don't give money to people begging in the streets. Instead I regularly donate to specific charities that I know put the money to good use.

However, if others wish to give money directly, that's their decision.

We all do what we feel is the best. And none of us should feel guilty about it.

[GoldenRivet]

I agree with Platapus here on all points.

Something detrimental has taken place in their lives to put them into this position. i wouldnt go so far as to say "society has failed them" because usually they got into that position by faults of their own - alcohol abuse - drug abuse etc

I also know it is a fact that there are people who take to "pan handling" for a living.

that is that they make respectable careers out of begging... some of which reportedly bring in $30-50,000 annually just by begging, they are in fact home owners or renters and in all likelihood own a car and have a nice place to stay at the end of the day.

[Platapus]

I agree with Platapus here on all points.



:o:o:o

Whaaat? :o:o:o:o

Notify the administrators, someone hacked his account.

:D

[Takeda Shingen]

I agree with both Plat and GR. They do have the right to ask for money. You also have the right to retain your money. Those would be the rules.

[GoldenRivet]

:o:o:o

Whaaat? :o:o:o:o

Notify the administrators, someone hacked his account.

:D

LOL


Instead I regularly donate to specific charities that I know put the money to good use.

now... onto the point of "Does the Federal Government have the right to tax me so that they can serve as a charity?" with that question, many folks here can likely get back to disagreeing with one another :haha:

[Skybird]

Beggars should be forbidden. You feel guilty if you don't give them money, and you feel guilty if you do.

:D

[nikimcbee]

In ore-gone, it is a lifestyle choice, and the city panders to them.:shifty:

[Sailor Steve]

It may seem strange, but I used to give money to panhandlers, even when I was poor. Being homeless myself actually cured me of it. When I lived in the homeless shelter I quickly discovered that there were several places to get free food, including a Catholic-run dining room and hangout right across the street from a large mall. One day I was walking to the soup kitchen when a healthy-looking young man asked me for a couple of bucks so he could get something to eat. I told him to come with me, as I was on my way to the free lunch and it was right around the corner. I can't repeat his reply here.

No one starves here unless they want to. If the free food available doesn't suit your taste, fine, but don't ask me for money so you don't have to eat what I do.

[Freiwillige]

Beggars should be forbidden. You feel guilty if you don't give them money, and you feel guilty if you do.

:D

Actually this is so true.

[Krauter]

At Platapus and GR, I'm not disputing their right to pan handle or beg.

The whole point of this thread is to see whether seeing such things makes people insensitive about this or is it just society moving in that direction at all.


A for the who is right and who is wrong. Again I'm not disputing begging. I don't care if the guy is sitting there bundled up in a sleeping bag or showing me his amputated limbs, I'm not going to give him money.

What I meant by who is in the wrong, is compared to other beggars who sit there with a cup/sign what ever, are these people who try to play off of emotions (showing amputated limbs to bloody 4 year olds for christ sake) worse?

[Castout]

People are just getting colder in general.

Population has exploded and most people have to work very hard to earn their living often paycheck to paycheck. They are simply drained of energy and passion to care about anything else I suppose. And when you have to work very hard only to earn a little I suppose it would make you a little angry seeing someone begging.

[the_tyrant]

http://www.cracked.com/article_19004_6-things-that-annoy-you-every-day-explained-by-science_p2.html

look at number 1

Most of us are familiar with the bystander effect, an unfortunate phenomenon in which people in crowds ignore others in danger because they think that someone else in the vicinity will go to their rescue. But what about the generally dickish way people in cities act even when you're not being mugged? When you're in a small town, chances are that people will be friendly and happy to talk to you, and all you'll really have to worry about is being attacked by mutants while having sex in the forest.



In the city, however, everything from ordering food to passing people on the street will probably be accompanied by intense surliness. This is not because rural folk are inherently kinder, either: People from nonurban backgrounds tend to start acting the same way once they've been in the city for a while.

What The Hell Is Going On Here?

It's because of "urban overload," the incredibly large amount of information that those in urban environments must process. In one experiment testing the theory, a man wearing a cast pretended to drop some boxes of books while hidden observers counted how many strangers would offer to help. What determined the number of people who stopped to help wasn't whether passersby were wearing business suits or Stetsons, but whether a noisy piece of machinery was audible in the background. More than five times as many people stopped to help in a quiet environment than in a noisy one.


The study didn't come right out and say that headphones turn us into soulless monsters, but it was pretty heavily implied.

According to science, it works like this: Modern city dwellers must wade through thousands of potential social interactions every day. In order to deal with this, they must be selective about what they focus on. This leads them to unconsciously ignore "unimportant" information, whether it's a flashing strip club advertisement or an injured kitten.


"Ahh, they'll work it out."

The theory was first proposed in 1970 by Stanley Milgram, who observed that city dwellers try to cope by using "filtering devices." He meant it metaphorically back then, but the fact that we started stuffing real filtering devices into our ears as soon as they were invented means that his theory is holding up pretty well.

Another thing that social scientists have noted is that although most impersonal city interaction seems rude, it's actually also a form of politeness. Most of the time, people passing on the street or standing together in an elevator are not really ignoring each other.


Especially not if the office cafeteria served boiled cabbage for lunch.

Instead, we'll acknowledge the other person by looking at him briefly without eye contact and then looking away. This is called "civil inattention," and it works by letting the other person know that you see him, but are respecting his right to privacy. If we urbanites really didn't care about the people around us, we'd do stuff like point and stare if someone was wearing a funny hat. This technique allows us to walk the line between total blanking and overfamiliar creepiness, a balance that is of desperate importance when the crowded subway is forcing our elbow into someone's crotch.



Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_19004_6-things-that-annoy-you-every-day-explained-by-science_p2.html#ixzz1EegiPDln

this seems to fit
I didn't quote the pictures though, so it might seem a bit odd

[antikristuseke]

Beggars should be forbidden. You feel guilty if you don't give them money, and you feel guilty if you do.

:D

I don't feel anything towards them.

[Buddahaid]

Says it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz3UzldBKjQ

[Feuer Frei!]

My thoughts on this is that on the topic of begging for instance is that unless You have been in that situation before moreoften than not you will not give that person money. Like Sailor Steve, i have, many years ago been in a pretty bad situation but, luckily i had family and friends to get me through the bad trot.
Keep in mind that a lot of the beggars or street urchins or whatever you want to call them do not have the support of loved ones. Sure, you may argue that, like Sailor Steve you do have a choice. A choice of going to a refuge for food or the local welfare agencies for food vouchers or such, etc etc.
Easier said than done. Not everyone has the capabilities or means to do that.
Unless you can "relate" to a person being in the dumps, and possibly begging for money or food then it is always difficult to understand and easier even to ridicule and wave away.
On a side-note, what do we class a beggar? Someone purely who is dressed in rags and is filthy and sits on the corner of a street? Or someone who offers entertainment, like a busker or somesuch and has a hat for any donations for his 'services' for want of a better word?
Are we stereotyping the word beggar? Or are we being technical? Because you can be forgiven for thinking that both examples above can be classed as beggars, even if you are performing or such in a mall.
On a sidenote=i do donate to less fortunate souls than myself, because i know all too well what it is like to be down in the dumps.
HOWEVER, i also believe we as a society need to do more for our fellow citizens, the state governments and federal ofc take the full brunt of the responsibility in this.
The gap btw rich and poor has always, and always will be a issue, which does not help the average 'beggar' off the streets.
On addressing the thread title in general, i absolutely believe that we have always been a race where we are quick to judge, quick to ridicule and quick to condemn.
Nothing new there. The weak get weaker, the strong become stronger, most of us stronger ones couldn't give a rat's arse about they guy who just lost his job, lost his wife, lost his kids and lost his savings because some a**hole broke into his house and murdered his family while he was at work getting the sack!
Ok ok, that's a seriously extreme and disturbing example, but you get my point right?
Hell, we are too absorbed in our own crap that everything else, or rather everyone else is always on the outer.
Even worse when it's disabled people or beggars or 'so-called' low-lives of the society who shouldn't deserve the tax-payer's money because they couldn't be bothered getting off their a**es and getting a job. Pah! Well, if it was only as simple as that. Generalizing each and every street bum and beggar and druggy like that, would be too simple.
But, that's what we do isn't it.
A pathetic race we are indeed.
Too caught up in our own materialistic bull*** to help our fellow neighbour, or the person on the street who needs a guiding light.
Job of welfare agencies or social workers?
Exactly, too easy to pass the buck isn't it?

[Buddahaid]

The problem is separating the truly needy from the professionals. I don't like feeding someones habit and some people are simply incapable of doing anything else but panhandle. Like Steve said you can help yourself with available services if you can help yourself at all. I've talked to a street person for years who gets a monthly stipend, has a place to stay (but won't use it because of the rules), and she just can't pull anything together because she doesn't want to, and therefore will remain a free, but broken spirit living off society.

[Feuer Frei!]

because she doesn't want to, and therefore will remain a free, but broken spirit living off society.
And that ofc is a issue, that some people are chosing not to pull themselves out of their situations that they are in.
Although ofc we must be careful to come to quick conclusions in some or a lot of these situations. (I don't doubt that what you say is true ofc, Buddahaid) i am more talking about in general, that we as a collective seem to judge or put down immediately that which we don't relate to or sympathize with.

[Sailor Steve]

On a side-note, what do we class a beggar? Someone purely who is dressed in rags and is filthy and sits on the corner of a street? Or someone who offers entertainment, like a busker or somesuch and has a hat for any donations for his 'services' for want of a better word?
I see a huge difference between begging and performing. Playing on a street corner is no different from playing in a club or in a concert hall. The person in question is actually offering something and asking for money if you like his performance. And if I like the performance I'll certainly give him something.

I also see a difference between someone who could obviously be working and someone who could obviously not be working. I mentioned the guy who would rather beg than walk a block to the soup kitchen, and cursed me when I invited him along. I've also seen a guy in a wheelchair with no legs, and a small dog for a companion. Him I give money to when I see him.

[mookiemookie]

I'm with Platapus and GR. I don't usually give money to homeless people. A couple exceptions I can remember:

In Boston, I was outside of a bar and smoking a cigarette. Got to talking with a panhandler. I must have had a 30 minute conversation with him. I got his whole story...asked him where his family was, why he didn't go to a shelter, etc etc. He seemed genuinely down on his luck. He was very forthright and very genuine. I gave him $20.

Also in Boston, a panhandler yells at me as I walk by: "What's the best nation in the world? "Uhh...the USA?" "No! A DO-NATION!" That made me laugh and was worth a buck.

Other than those two instances, I have never given a panhandler money.

[Armistead]

My wife is a part time social worker at a state hospital, so she tells me some heartbreaking stories. The constant theme she hears is.."I never thought this could happen to me or my family."

If you have a job, medical insurance, home, family support...most view homelessness as "enough is enough."
If you lose your job, get seriously ill forcing you into poverty and no support..."public insensitivity."

The problem will always be two fold. You have many that have no choice but to be homeless and others that prefer it and do it for a living. For those that need help, they find it hard to get it due to all the red tape.

Homelessness has tripled in the last 10 years.

There is a big city lake behind my house surrounded by several thousand acres. In the last few years homeless people have built small tent cities around the lake, use the shelters for water, etc...The police run them out, but they come back. I would say 80% are the former white middle class, homes foreclosed, no jobs. I was shocked to find a disabled man that once lived in my neighborhood living back there. He had no disability plan and was waiting for SS approval, no income, no family. He stayed in his home until the sheriff removed him and just moved into the woods behind his home. I helped get him on medicare and he was in line waiting for S8 housing.

Many of the homeless are those ill, can't get proper meds or treatment.
Many think sick can go get free treatment and help from state hospitals or clinics, that's seldom the case unless a life threatening emergency. The red tape is as long as the wait. All levels of government are cutting programs that help the homeless.

Right now they say 72% of foreclosures are due to unemployment, people that once worked can't find work, more effected are the skilled trades. Millions more to come this year. If these people still can't find jobs, they can't even pay rent....sadly a number of them will end up homeless.

[Sailor Steve]

Many think sick can go get free treatment and help from state hospitals or clinics, that's seldom the case unless a life threatening emergency. The red tape is as long as the wait. All levels of government are cutting programs that help the homeless.
And here in Salt Lake we have a free clinic that runs on donations. You can get practically any kind of care you can think of there, and they have connections to local hospitals. The Homeless Shelters are also run strictly by donations - no state help at all.

Here at the VA Housing I'm in we partly pay our way by helping recycle medical supplies for that very clinic and others around the world.

[Castout]

One thing that many people tend to neglect when they pass judgment on these poor fellows is that nobody planned to be a beggar or a destitute on the street. Either by misfortune or string of them or their own fault nobody wants in that kind of position.

What many people here like to do is giving these people just a little or ridiculously little money then pass judgment on them afterward on their back. In a way they paid their cents to pass judgment on them :shifty:. What kind of judge would judge the misfortune of other people without full information of the man? And just who appoints them anyway? They do not exactly force anyone to give them alms. I find it revolting. It's like saying if you have HIV you must be sinful!

But I do know the reason why these people often pass judgment on them. These poor fellows made them to feel uneasy about themselves. If they didn't give these people anything they would be made to feel bad about themselves yet they actually do not wish to give them anything. So they take the middle road by giving them change which will not cost them anything and then pass judgment on them for making them feel uneasy. Welcome to the hypocrisy of the world of man. Probably one of the biggest reason why most never come to know God whom they claimed to worship. But the surprise is not that, the surprise is that they who are doing this do not realize why they are doing just that!!!! The mind makes it so that they won't feel guilty.

[Nicolas]

I say let them be, others attitude is not your problem. True compassion will never feel bad i think.

[Castout]

I say let them be, others attitude is not your problem.

I never said it was my problem but it's definitely their problem.

True compassion will never feel bad i think.

Indeed I agree to that.

[Nicolas]

It was a reply to the first post.

[Castout]

It was a reply to the first post.

Ah okay

[Penguin]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1602987&postcount=16
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5863/hatoffwed.jpg

well said Feuer Frei, can't agree more!

[Feuer Frei!]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1602987&postcount=16
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5863/hatoffwed.jpg

well said Feuer Frei, can't agree more!

Thank you, i appreciate that :salute:

[Wolfehunter]

What I meant by who is in the wrong, is compared to other beggars who sit there with a cup/sign what ever, are these people who try to play off of emotions (showing amputated limbs to bloody 4 year olds for christ sake) worse?Everyone is in the wrong. Government for not doing what there suppose to do and protect the people there elected to do and the people who don't push there representatives to help those less fortunate.

But its also some part homeless's own fault. Choices they've made that where the wrong one. Whatever it may be.

Some people learn to late how nasty this world can be. Some still never learn. Its all about me me and not we.

[Betonov]

I'd give them some spare change if I had any

But I'd pick who will I give it to. Usually those who werent all in your face or smth, (my english fails here). If he just said: ''hey mac, got any change'' '' shure, here 20 cents that are lying in my pocket''. But some of them just step infront of you and go all: ''we are friend right (wink wink) how's about a euro??'' Those get nothing

[AVGWarhawk]

Within the laws, they have a right to beg for money
you have a right to not give them money.

In my county of MD you do not have the right to beg. It is a $500.00 fine and imprisonment. Beggers were numerous and getting very agressive.

No one is in the "wrong" here.


I believe the begger is wrong in the sense that he is disturbing the peace by begging. Again, here in my county the beggers were getting overly aggressive.

It is only when one tries to interfere with the other's right that there is a problem.


It is not his right in my county.

Personally, I don't give money to people begging in the streets. Instead I regularly donate to specific charities that I know put the money to good use.


Same. I'm sorry but I feel giving money only encourages the begger to continue.

However, if others wish to give money directly, that's their decision.


True.

We all do what we feel is the best. And none of us should feel guilty about it.

Agreed.

One day I watched a begger. He was begging in the parking lot for quite some time. At 5 pm he seemed to have punched out on his mental time clock. He then proceeded to drive away in his Ford LTD. :o He was a professional begger.