Dear striking teachers in Wisconsin...

[Bubblehead1980]

Get your as..ugh rear ends back in the classroom and do your jobs.You are neglecting students and disrupting their education.The Governor should begin recruitment of replacement teachers and ensure every teacher not back in class monday unless out for a legitimate reason is fired, use substitutes until permanent replacements are found.Sick of union scum standing in the way of this country due to their greed and desire for bloated benefits, lets hope Governor Walker does not give in.

[Penguin]

use subs until permanent replacements are found

I don't get how an u-boat can replace a teacher...:hmmm:

[Gargamel]

I totally agree with that point of view when it comes to pro sports unions, Auto workers, etc.

But do you honestly think teachers are overpaid?

I would assume that there were many rounds of negotiations before this happened, and this is what they felt they needed to do.

[Buddahaid]

You can thank union scum for your forty hour work week and other things we take for granted in our workplaces.

I wish for once you could post something without name calling being involved. I lose interest very fast when people do that, or feel the need to swear, or shout to make a point.

[Aramike]

I totally agree with that point of view when it comes to pro sports unions, Auto workers, etc.

But do you honestly think teachers are overpaid?

I would assume that there were many rounds of negotiations before this happened, and this is what they felt they needed to do.If you knew the pay and benefits packages of Wisconsin teachers, I highly doubt you'd find them to be underpaid.

Yes, they need to get their asses back in the classrooms. Especially considering that the bill they are protesting has NOTHING TO DO WITH TEACHERS.

This is all about union thuggery.

[Armistead]

You can thank union scum for your forty hour work week and other things we take for granted in our workplaces.

I wish for once you could post something without name calling being involved. I lose interest very fast when people do that, or feel the need to swear, or shout to make a point.

A 40 hour work week, millions of American families are working two jobs or over 60 hours a week to pay bills. The majority of small buinesses here have made deep cuts, cut or dropped benefits, etc...Course Unions and Corporations are killing small business, both pets of Dems and Rep.

We that pay taxes have to support huge benefit packages for these union workers while we do without benefits.... As Obama said, we all have to give, time unions get in line with the rest of us. Bankrupt states in the red are now facing hard facts, the cuts will have to be deep, many states are laying off. States don't do something now employess may find the bank turning down worthless paychecks.

I know plenty of unemployed people that would love to have these jobs and do them well, based on who is the best at it. Unions had a place once, Many of these union teachers suck, but almost impossible to fire. Pay and benefits should be based on who doe's the best job.

[mookiemookie]

You can thank union scum for your forty hour work week and other things we take for granted in our workplaces.

I wish for once you could post something without name calling being involved. I lose interest very fast when people do that, or feel the need to swear, or shout to make a point.

Or post insipid rants devoid of substance...

[Aramike]

You can thank union scum for your forty hour work week and other things we take for granted in our workplaces.

Heh, yeah, sure, buddy.

I haven't worked 40 hours or less per week since ... well, since ... I have no idea.

So here's to those public employee unions which allow SOME people to work 40 hours a week while others (such as myself and any other private taxpayer) pays their bills.

[nikimcbee]

So, Aramike, are you going to Madison for the party?
See, we don't have your problem here in or-gone, as the public union has absolute control over this state. Only their sock puppets get elected, so there is never any civil unrest.

[Growler]

Unions no longer serve the greater good.

Furthermore, if you think public school teachers are in the classroom being able to TEACH anything, you've not been in a public school much lately. The days of teaching are over; these days, teachers are forced to pander to the left-leaning political correctness crowd and NCLB testing. Teaching hasn't happened in public schools in years.

[Onkel Neal]

You can thank union scum for your forty hour work week and other things we take for granted in our workplaces.

I wish for once you could post something without name calling being involved. I lose interest very fast when people do that, or feel the need to swear, or shout to make a point.

YEAH I AGREE!


;)

.

[Tribesman]

millions of American families are working two jobs or over 60 hours a week to pay bills
If they was working those 60 hours in one job instead of two wouldn't they be getting a hell of a lot more money.

I haven't worked 40 hours or less per week since ... well, since ... I have no idea.

I havn't either, but anthing over the 37 or 38.5 or 39 or 40 or whichever it is in that country at the time has been at the time has always been paid as overtime unless its on price.

[Growler]

If they was working those 60 hours in one job instead of two wouldn't they be getting a hell of a lot more money.


I havn't either, but anthing over the 37 or 38.5 or 39 or 40 or whichever it is in that country at the time has been at the time has always been paid as overtime unless its on price.

Many folks working multiple jobs are working across different employers, where rather than a 40 hour and 20 hour, they're on two 30 hour gigs. In many US states, an employee must regularly work 32+ hours across several weeks to be eligible for benefits as a full time employee; that 30 hours a week doesn't come close to the Federal Government mandated 40 hour then overtime rates criteria. So, unless they work over 40 hours, they get hourly pay at base rate.

"On price" I'm guessing means the same as "salaried" or "contracted" here in the States - in which case, you are still only required to meet the minimum 40 hour work week - but many employers take advantage of the contract status and mandate 50 or 60 hour work weeks at base salary - which is illegal, but rarely enforced.

[Buddahaid]

"On price" I'm guessing means the same as "salaried" or "contracted" here in the States - in which case, you are still only required to meet the minimum 40 hour work week - but many employers take advantage of the contract status and mandate 50 or 60 hour work weeks at base salary - which is illegal, but rarely enforced.

Which supports a need for unions to keep employers from running sweat shops. What we have now is a reflection of our political polarity where the need for compromises must be forced upon us.

I've never been a union employee, and work for the only non-unionized department in my workplace, but I appreciate what unions have done to keep employers from abusing their employees.

In a perfect world there would be no need for unions and no need for absurdly inflated executive salaries. Not socialism, but fair and sensibly run capitalism.

[razark]

but many employers take advantage of the contract status and mandate 50 or 60 hour work weeks at base salary - which is illegal, but rarely enforced.
If only there were some way for a group of these employees to band together and make their voices heard...

[Armistead]

Which supports a need for unions to keep employers from running sweat shops. What we have now is a reflection of our political polarity where the need for compromises must be forced upon us.

I've never been a union employee, and work for the only non-unionized department in my workplace, but I appreciate what unions have done to keep employers from abusing their employees.

In a perfect world there would be no need for unions and no need for absurdly inflated executive salaries. Not socialism, but fair and sensibly run capitalism.

The problem is unions want more, they have overstepped and that seems to be the agenda the last 20 years.

My brother worked for a truck outfit non union, but had great pay and benefits. The employees pushed union, it was about a 50/50 split. The man made it clear if they went union, he would sell out or close up and a rather large SE firm. It got a lil ugly, but the union won by a few votes. The man shut it down, all lost their great jobs. Those that didn't want it got screwed. After several months Fed-Ex purchased the company, they're union. My brother applied there and luckily got a job, but guess what, pay was less.

[Buddahaid]

The problem is unions want more, they have overstepped and that seems to be the agenda the last 20 years.


And so have employers and that is the extremism I refer to. How many companies hire only part timers now for small pay and no benefits while CEO's make millions upon millions, then offshore to avoid taxes?

[Penguin]

What I always find odd, is that most seem to think that working for many hours a week somehow proofs that they are diligent and hard-working. It just proofs that they spend many hours at work.
It's all about effectiveness. Some people need 6 hours for a task, some 8, some longer.
Personally, I prefer to work 6 hours with full speed and concentration, with no breaks over sitting on the ass for 12 hours and not doing much. Sadly, also those exhausting 12 hour days without break often happen ;), but after some days you are burned out when you work in a fast-paced environment.

[August]

And so have employers and that is the extremism I refer to. How many companies hire only part timers now for small pay and no benefits while CEO's make millions upon millions, then offshore to avoid taxes?

The salary of CEO's is approved by the company stockholders. If you have a beef with executive pay rates then take it up with them. Neither you or anyone else has a right to tell people what to pay their employees.

[yubba]

This is what happens when you run out of other peoples money, I worry about my folks who are retired New York State workers, they don't have a clue what's about to happen.

[Buddahaid]

The salary of CEO's is approved by the company stockholders. If you have a beef with executive pay rates then take it up with them. Neither you or anyone else has a right to tell people what to pay their employees.

Agreed. I just think these boardrooms could care less about sustaining anything as long as their greed is satisfied while they're on board. Same goes for union management.

[Tribesman]

Many folks working multiple jobs are working across different employers, where rather than a 40 hour and 20 hour, they're on two 30 hour gigs. In many US states, an employee must regularly work 32+ hours across several weeks to be eligible for benefits as a full time employee
Yep, one decent job with proper hours and a decent contract is whats needed, that tends to go out the window without collective bargaining as eventually every employee gets knocked down to what the biggest muppet will accept which of course means the firm will end up only being able to recruit muppets.

On price" I'm guessing means the same as "salaried" or "contracted" here in the States
Set price for the contract(but additionaly negotiate and settle in writing for the inevitable extras that arise), it doesn't matter how many hours or how few you do its just a matter of completing before any time limit.
knock it out in a week or drag it out for 3 months as long as you meet the deadline its sound.


Especially considering that the bill they are protesting has NOTHING TO DO WITH TEACHERS.


CAPS LOCK strikes again(pardon the pun), it has nothing to do with police, it has nothing to do with state troopers, it has nothing to do with firefighters, but it is to do with teachers if they are government employees.

[Bubblehead1980]

My initial post was more of a rant than anything, I had just watched some of the protests and was rather annoyed.I was also on my way out the door for the evening so did not have much time to explain the issue.

Public Employees seem to have a sense of entitlement in America these days, esp teachers.The benefits and pay public employees enjoy have proven unsustainable on both the Fed and State level.Governor Walker is simply trying to do his job and get the budget under control by going after the budget busting contributions the union managed to get thanks to the Dems, mostly.

Teachers really want something to be mad about, just wait until the state goes bankrupt and can not contribute anything.They are being selfish and harming students as well as their image.Not sure how Wisconsin law is but would love to see Walker fire some teachers that refuse to return, as Reagan did the air traffic controllers.Time for real change is upon us, hope Governor Walker sticks it out, he is on the right side of this one.

[Takeda Shingen]

My initial post was more of a rant than anything, I had just watched some of the protests and was rather annoyed.I was also on my way out the door for the evening so did not have much time to explain the issue.

Public Employees seem to have a sense of entitlement in America these days, esp teachers.The benefits and pay public employees enjoy have proven unsustainable on both the Fed and State level.Governor Walker is simply trying to do his job and get the budget under control by going after the budget busting contributions the union managed to get thanks to the Dems, mostly.

Teachers really want something to be mad about, just wait until the state goes bankrupt and can not contribute anything.They are being selfish and harming students as well as their image.Not sure how Wisconsin law is but would love to see Walker fire some teachers that refuse to return, as Reagan did the air traffic controllers.Time for real change is upon us, hope Governor Walker sticks it out, he is on the right side of this one.

So what it really comes down to is that you don't like teachers. That's okay, I don't like lawyers.

[mookiemookie]

So what it really comes down to is that you don't like teachers. That's okay, I don't like lawyers.

Game, set, match. :rotfl2:

[yubba]

Well this is a real testimony to our educational system outside of that it sucks, no one knows any math or bookkeeping, so that's how we got into this mess in the first place. I don't remember being taught ponsie scheme's in school, right from the local level to the Fed. Well boys and girls, I hope you all boned up on your Mad Max and Red Dawn.

[Tribesman]

Its good to see that wisconsins firefighters are joinimg the protests objecting to the legislation even though they are not targeted by the proposal.:up:

[Buddahaid]

Pay aside I'd hate to be a teacher today. The ones I know can't wait to retire a get away from the mass of uncooperative brats who do have a huge sense of entitlement. It's a burn out job with a few bright spots mixed in.

[Armistead]

Its good to see that wisconsins firefighters are joinimg the protests objecting to the legislation even though they are not targeted by the proposal.:up:


Because they're union...

Sure, we all would complain if we had to take less. They want their power to negotiate, yet still force all non union employees to pay union dues.
The fact remains the large majority of voters there support Walker.

The large majority of us don't get high union wages. If the private sector had the wages, pensions and benefits of unions, we couldn't compete in the global market. The fact remains, the private citizens that pay these perks ,we or the employers that hire us can't even give them to us, but not only do we do without, we must pay it for you. To ask for them to pay a small percent for these benefits isn't much. If they want the right to renegotiate, they're gonna have to give up unfair items. This is just a start, with all local and state governments going broke or bankrupt, unions will soon be reduced to the wages and benefits of the private sector.

No doubt the GOP push of corporate elitism has destroyed decent wages and benefits for private america. It's also made it impossible for the private sector to support the large perks and wages of unions in the public sector.
I have no problem with unions that are non public that want to pay all these perks based on the money they make. Unions have no business in the public sector.

I'm afraid unions will slowly fade in the future due to corporate elitism in a global economy that our politicians make work for everyone but the US middle class.

[yubba]

Gee it just dawn on me , who works for who ? I for one, won' t bust my hump for a lousy wage ,with no future and give up a high percentage of my pay so some public sector bum, can get better wages and a great retirement. Just remember what ever percentage of taxes they take out of you, that's how much you work for the government, damned If I'm going to spend a quarter to half of my life working for the government, for nothing.

[Platapus]

Interesting that you feel you get nothing from the local, state, and federal government.

[Rilder]

lets hope Governor Walker does not give in.

Wow I just realized I care so little about politics that I didn't even know who was Governor of my state. :rotfl2:

I don't get how an u-boat can replace a teacher...:hmmm:

Well one things for sure, students would be experts in WWII Naval Subjects.

[Aramike]

So what it really comes down to is that you don't like teachers. That's okay, I don't like lawyers.The behavior of these teachers has been nothing short of despicable.

Perhaps they could have argued for why collective bargaining should be maintained in their case - until they were stupid enough to PROVE why it shouldn't be by calling in sick en masse. And their protest antics show a clear lack of judgement.

They are going to lose this fight, partially because they have only steeled the resolve of those who were shakey in opposition to begin with. I personally have no problem with teachers in general. However, teachers in Wisconsin are HIGHLY compensated and have turned out a failing school system all the while having nearly 100% job protection.

The unions have stuck us taxpayers in the unenviable position of having a problem that we are not ALLOWED to fix. This is why most collective bargaining must go.

Most people nationwide don't understand what's going on here. This isn't about benefits - the teachers are ceding that point. This isn't about collective bargaining ... not really. The unions are decieving these idiots into thinking it is, but it really isn't. The unions are ceding to practically all of the demands that we would have bargained for in the first place.

This is about one simple thing: union money. Money. For the unions.

Walker's bill actually allows for collective bargaining to remain in place as a mirror of the private sector. When a private sector employee prospect is offered a job, salary is often negotiable but benefit plans are generally set in place. Walker is merely proposing the exact same thing.

However, what the unions don't like is that Walker wants union membership to be completely optional (without fair-share rules which requires those who opt out of the union to pay the union dues regardless) and for union dues to no longer be automatically deducted from employees' paychecks.

So, those of you in support of these teachers, don't try to bitch and moan about rights. What about the rights of the employee to say no to the unions and not pay them? Why should employees be forced to pay the unions, who substantially donate to ONE political party out of those dues, effectively compelling that employee to donate to something which may be in opposition to their views?

And why should the taxpayer face an indirect tax on each government employee via union membership, meaning that a percentage of TAX dollars go to the unions which may oppose our views?

Freedom is specifically what the unions are against! They are still allowed to bargain, members can still pay their dues, etc. But they are afraid that such a freedom to opt-out and the freedom to write a check - or not - will affect their bottom line. Ergo, the insane rhetoric followed by concessions to EVERYTHING Walker is proposing, EXCEPT that which affects the unions.

These teachers and state employees work for the taxpayers. If they choose to not work, they need to go. Considering the economy and their lavish benefits and more than competitive wages, those positions won't be hard to fill.

[Tribesman]

Can some of the locals clear this up, did Wisconsin have a budget surplus? was it projected to have a surplus to the tune of $120 million?
Has that surplus quickly been turned into a defecit of $130 million by a spending spree and tax givaways Walker has followed in his short time?
If so does that mean the workers are not really the problem but it is a problem of another fiscally conservative politician being financially reckless and irresponsible?

[Aramike]

Can some of the locals clear this up, did Wisconsin have a budget surplus? was it projected to have a surplus to the tune of $120 million? No, that is a myth perpetuated by the left who apparently don't know that (a) While Wisconsin's budget is biennial, it does not make concessions to debt, (b) you actually have to read a document completely to understand it, (c) Walker's tax breaks for businesses haven't even begun yet.

Here's a breakdown: http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/

(For the record, I personally think Politifact tends to go soft on the left, but they've generally gotten it right.)

A quote:There is, indeed, a projected deficit that required attention, and Walker and GOP lawmakers did not create it.

More on that second point in a bit.

The confusion, it appears, stems from a section in Lang’s memo that -- read on its own -- does project a $121 million surplus in the state’s general fund as of June 30, 2011.

But the remainder of the routine memo -- consider it the fine print -- outlines $258 million in unpaid bills or expected shortfalls in programs such as Medicaid services for the needy ($174 million alone), the public defender’s office and corrections. Additionally, the state owes Minnesota $58.7 million under a discontinued tax reciprocity deal.

The result, by our math and Lang’s, is the $137 million shortfall.

It would be closer to the $340 million figure if the figure included the $200 million owed to the state’s patient compensation fund, a debt courts have declared resulted from an illegal raid on the fund under former Gov. Jim Doyle.Emphasis mine.

This memo has been circulating for awhile, well before Maddow proved her ignorance via sensationalizing it without completely grasping the situation.

[XabbaRus]

What I always find odd, is that most seem to think that working for many hours a week somehow proofs that they are diligent and hard-working. It just proofs that they spend many hours at work.
It's all about effectiveness. Some people need 6 hours for a task, some 8, some longer.
Personally, I prefer to work 6 hours with full speed and concentration, with no breaks over sitting on the ass for 12 hours and not doing much. Sadly, also those exhausting 12 hour days without break often happen ;), but after some days you are burned out when you work in a fast-paced environment.

I agree with this. My old boss a few times used to question why I only seemed to do my contracted 37.5 hours a week and if I had enough work to do. I answered that I just prioritise well and that if I have spare capacity I would look for stuff to do. He had this idea that unless you were putting 45+ hours on your time sheer you weren't "going the extra mile". Anyway I believe that if you work beyond your mandated hours you should get paid for it.

[Tribesman]

So the shortfall is projected to be lower than it usually is but thats from before the current governor.
The new governor intends to cut spending to save money in the future but also cut revenue at the same time seemingly by the same amount.

[Takeda Shingen]

The behavior of these teachers has been nothing short of despicable.

Perhaps they could have argued for why collective bargaining should be maintained in their case - until they were stupid enough to PROVE why it shouldn't be by calling in sick en masse. And their protest antics show a clear lack of judgement.

They are going to lose this fight, partially because they have only steeled the resolve of those who were shakey in opposition to begin with. I personally have no problem with teachers in general. However, teachers in Wisconsin are HIGHLY compensated and have turned out a failing school system all the while having nearly 100% job protection.

The unions have stuck us taxpayers in the unenviable position of having a problem that we are not ALLOWED to fix. This is why most collective bargaining must go.

Most people nationwide don't understand what's going on here. This isn't about benefits - the teachers are ceding that point. This isn't about collective bargaining ... not really. The unions are decieving these idiots into thinking it is, but it really isn't. The unions are ceding to practically all of the demands that we would have bargained for in the first place.

This is about one simple thing: union money. Money. For the unions.

Walker's bill actually allows for collective bargaining to remain in place as a mirror of the private sector. When a private sector employee prospect is offered a job, salary is often negotiable but benefit plans are generally set in place. Walker is merely proposing the exact same thing.

However, what the unions don't like is that Walker wants union membership to be completely optional (without fair-share rules which requires those who opt out of the union to pay the union dues regardless) and for union dues to no longer be automatically deducted from employees' paychecks.

So, those of you in support of these teachers, don't try to bitch and moan about rights. What about the rights of the employee to say no to the unions and not pay them? Why should employees be forced to pay the unions, who substantially donate to ONE political party out of those dues, effectively compelling that employee to donate to something which may be in opposition to their views?

And why should the taxpayer face an indirect tax on each government employee via union membership, meaning that a percentage of TAX dollars go to the unions which may oppose our views?

Freedom is specifically what the unions are against! They are still allowed to bargain, members can still pay their dues, etc. But they are afraid that such a freedom to opt-out and the freedom to write a check - or not - will affect their bottom line. Ergo, the insane rhetoric followed by concessions to EVERYTHING Walker is proposing, EXCEPT that which affects the unions.

These teachers and state employees work for the taxpayers. If they choose to not work, they need to go. Considering the economy and their lavish benefits and more than competitive wages, those positions won't be hard to fill.

The unions aren't deceiving anyone, and the teachers are not idiots. The teachers do what they have to do to survive. By that, I am refering to the state of affairs in education. We live in a culture that demonizes educators, and yet places the unreasonable and impossible demand of raising children. Teachers have become surrogate parents because their parents are uninterested in acting in this role. This is not something that is found in only one income bracket; I have seen numerous students come to school unkempt and unfed by parents who can clearly afford to do so.

What's more, parents now sending the conflicting message in that they expect that their child will not be held accountable for their behavior and academic performance. Students are rarely suspended from school anymore, and are almost always passed on to the next grade level, regardless of demonstrated ability. Attempting to take a stand on this sort of matter results in a hell of a mess from the parents, which frequently includes legal action. This is where the union steps in. The teachers need that legal protection. But the union wants what it wants as well; it wants those teachers on the picket line, at the rally, making the testimonial. Those that do not comply simply do not see the level of effort made by the union. This I have seen first hand.

So, if you want to trash the teachers unions, I am fine with that. I've done so myself. However, you should keep in mind that most of those teachers have been compelled to be involved in this before you begin to wish them harm.

[AVGWarhawk]

The unions aren't deceiving anyone, and the teachers are not idiots.

True, there is no deception. Tenure. They know what it is and how to get it. Once gotten life is cheeky. They do not hide this fact. So yes, they are not idiots in this respect.



We live in a culture that demonizes educators


How are teacher demonized? You lost me hear. :hmmm:

and yet places the unreasonable and impossible demand of raising children. Teachers have become surrogate parents because their parents are uninterested in acting in this role. This is not something that is found in only one income bracket; I have seen numerous students come to school unkempt and unfed by parents who can clearly afford to do so.


Yes, teachers in many respects have become the parent. Teachers certainly spend more waking hours with the children than their parents do. My wife works in a Title One school. These are kids in the lower income bracket. Rides to school are provided by school bus and or taxi. Many of these kids are picked up at state sponsored hotel rooms. They are homeless. Breakfast and lunch are provided via the school. School supplies and clothing are provided by vouchers for the parent. The parents of these kids are capable of working and doing a better job raising their child but choose to take the easy road. However, some of these parents are in a pickle and do attempt to work it out.


What's more, parents now sending the conflicting message in that they expect that their child will not be held accountable for their behavior and academic performance. Students are rarely suspended from school anymore, and are almost always passed on to the next grade level, regardless of demonstrated ability. Attempting to take a stand on this sort of matter results in a hell of a mess from the parents, which frequently includes legal action. This is where the union steps in. The teachers need that legal protection. But the union wants what it wants as well; it wants those teachers on the picket line, at the rally, making the testimonial. Those that do not comply simply do not see the level of effort made by the union. This I have seen first hand.


Yes, many kids run amuck at home and at school. For most academic performance is just making it to school on time. Yes, many kids are not suspended for fear of legal retribution by the parent of said child because after all...little Johnny is not capable of doing such things like bring a knife into school. As far as students just being sent on without receiving the education of that grade level I have to agree but over the years this has come to a screeching halt. Teacher are now held accountable for the overall score of the MSA here in MD. If the students are below a satisfactory grade the teacher is removed. Some thing that Michele Rhee did for DC schools and I applaud her for it. Far to many teachers for many years have been getting away with doing nothing and hiding behind tenure. As far as the unions, many teachers have been removed from the job for everything from sexual impropriety, misguided advise and inappropriate after school activity. These teachers are sent home with pay for months on end until the problem is reviewed by the superintendent and the union backs the teacher. Some of the legal protection provided is misguided IMO.

So, if you want to trash the teachers unions, I am fine with that. I've done so myself. However, you should keep in mind that most of those teachers have been compelled to be involved in this before you begin to wish them harm.

That is just it, the union is being trashed. For some of their past activity it is justified. What I find interesting is the teachers storming the capital looking for blood, calling in sick and generally making a mess of the situation. First, it make a bad impression on the students and second, is not the union the voice of the teachers? Are the teacher not contractually obligated to be at school and teaching or it is ok to take the day off (with pay) and storm the capital? Once again, no retribution. The wards are running the aslyum.

[Takeda Shingen]

AVG, just read the amount of trashing teachers in the thread. There's my answer towards demonization. The unions are secondary targets by the members of SubSim. I believe that they have the equation inverted. And as I said before, when the union tells you to do it, you do it or forego your support. Change the unions and you kill the problem. Firing every teacher in the State of Wisconsin does not accomplish this goal.

There are pedophiles in every profession.

[Aramike]

So the shortfall is projected to be lower than it usually is but thats from before the current governor.
The new governor intends to cut spending to save money in the future but also cut revenue at the same time seemingly by the same amount.Specifically, he plans to provide total tax forgiveness for two years for any major business moving to Wisconsin. It's his hope that measures such as these will help to create 250,000 jobs. If successful, the tax revenue derived from such an increase in employment plus the decrease in state entitlement payouts would more than offset any shortfall from the measure itself.

[Aramike]

The unions aren't deceiving anyone, and the teachers are not idiots. The teachers do what they have to do to survive. By that, I am refering to the state of affairs in education. We live in a culture that demonizes educators, and yet places the unreasonable and impossible demand of raising children. Teachers have become surrogate parents because their parents are uninterested in acting in this role. This is not something that is found in only one income bracket; I have seen numerous students come to school unkempt and unfed by parents who can clearly afford to do so.

What's more, parents now sending the conflicting message in that they expect that their child will not be held accountable for their behavior and academic performance. Students are rarely suspended from school anymore, and are almost always passed on to the next grade level, regardless of demonstrated ability. Attempting to take a stand on this sort of matter results in a hell of a mess from the parents, which frequently includes legal action. This is where the union steps in. The teachers need that legal protection. But the union wants what it wants as well; it wants those teachers on the picket line, at the rally, making the testimonial. Those that do not comply simply do not see the level of effort made by the union. This I have seen first hand.

So, if you want to trash the teachers unions, I am fine with that. I've done so myself. However, you should keep in mind that most of those teachers have been compelled to be involved in this before you begin to wish them harm.I'm sorry man, but I think you've gotten this one wrong.

I'm specifically referring to the teachers who are marching in lockstep with those who hold up signs comparing Walker to Hitler while skipping out of their job in support of what amounts to an ILLEGAL strike. They are idiots because they are destroying their cause.

Just because the union says "go" doesn't mean they had to. Furthermore, it doesn't mean they had to behave in the manner in which they have been. They aren't sheep, as shown by the fact that, in most cases, the majority of teachers did NOT call in. I'm not referring to those people as idiots.

So you know, however, unions are my primary target here. They need to go. But that doesn't excuse the teachers.

AVG: Well said.

[Growler]

American society really makes me shake my head in wonder. We seem to want it all in return for very little effort on our parts. This is a case in point.

We could:
A.) Take an active role in our kids' education, raise responsible people, send them to schools that pay teachers well, treat students and teachers fairly, allow teachers to actually teach, and they won't need a union;

or

B.) Comparatively ignore little Johnny and Janey, but treat them like perfect little jewels that couldn't possibly be incorrect, remove "fail" (read: responsibility for one's action(s) or inaction(s)) from the school lexicon, and blame teachers for those perfect kids not performing, then gripe when unionized teachers walk.

This is another example of addressing the wrong problem. The problem isn't teachers, or unions. The problem that needs addressing is the society that created the conditions that brought all of this here today.

[Tribesman]

Specifically, he plans to provide total tax forgiveness for two years for any major business moving to Wisconsin.
I can think of some spectacular failures that have followed in that line of planning. But it might work.


Here's a thought though on the whole benefits package, if there was a universal healthcare plan wouldn't that remove the unions need to bargain to get employees healthcare coverage from work ?

[yubba]

The left got what they wanted now we are just like europe.

[Bubblehead1980]

So what it really comes down to is that you don't like teachers. That's okay, I don't like lawyers.


No Takeda, I like the respectable teachers, who actually care and realize they have an important job, not these bums in Wisconsin who are more concerned about their union than their students.Teachers who call in "sick" leaving their jobs behind to protest do not deserve to teach.Think about the students? Their education is being interrupted, they will no doubt have to make missed days up, we always had to if were out more than a day or two such as when hurricanes hit etc. I recall a pay dispute when I was in middle school, the teachers did not miss class, they protested in their off time at the school board.This was a long time ago but believe they eventually got their raise.Now Florida is different than Wisconsin, union scumbags do not run Florida.Governor Walker should just pull a Reagan and fire the teachers, use substitutes to fill in until permanent replacements can be found, perhaps it would put them in their place.

[Bubblehead1980]

The left got what they wanted now we are just like europe.


Not yet but we are def in the middle of battle so to speak, the left can be stopped because most American's have not bought into their class/race warfare crap so far, we shall see though.

[Bubblehead1980]

Game, set, match. :rotfl2:


quite the cheerleader mookie.

[mookiemookie]

Imagine that. The Koch Brothers funded Walker's campaign. Now they're putting up astroturfing websites in support of his side in this. And their interest in the situation has to do with their business interests in the state.

Color me shocked.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/koch-brothers-behind-wisconsin-effort-to-kill-public-unions/

You really have to wonder how long it will take for Tea Party devotees to realize just how badly they are being used.

Couldn't agree more.

[XabbaRus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by yubba http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1601220#post1601220)
The left got what they wanted now we are just like europe.

Not yet but we are def in the middle of battle so to speak, the left can be stopped because most American's have not bought into their class/race warfare crap so far, we shall see though.

Actually as a european I resent both those comments which suggest to me how little you know or understand Europe and how its constituent states operate.

I don't agree with all powerful unions we have a similar situation with the BA cabin crew strikes so don't just assume that europe = unions out of control = socialism = bad.

[Bubblehead1980]

Imagine that. The Koch Brothers funded Walker's campaign. Now they're putting up astroturfing websites in support of his side in this. And their interest in the situation has to do with their business interests in the state.

Color me shocked.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/koch-brothers-behind-wisconsin-effort-to-kill-public-unions/



Couldn't agree more.

Koch Brother's, MSNBC's favorite target, they gotta have their boogeymen, of course it's two successful white businessmen they make the target but the New Black Panther Party, budget busting unions, radical islamists, aka the real bad guys, they are the victims according to the left and their propaganda agency, get real.


Not a member of the tea party but they are def not being used, just regular americans sick of the cra.The "working man/woman" has yet to realize how much the unions left leaning politicans use them by playing on their fears about "evil rich people" to gain power and money.

[Bubblehead1980]

Quote:
Originally Posted by yubba http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1601220#post1601220)
The left got what they wanted now we are just like europe.



Actually as a european I resent both those comments which suggest to me how little you know or understand Europe and how its constituent states operate.

I don't agree with all powerful unions we have a similar situation with the BA cabin crew strikes so don't just assume that europe = unions out of control = socialism = bad.

Resent it all you want, yubba's statement was pretty accurate but as I said, we are in a battle here in the US because most American's have not bought into the class/race warfare crap.I understand how europe works, actually would be more accurate to say how it does not work lol.

[Takeda Shingen]

Governor Walker should just pull a Reagan and fire the teachers, use substitutes to fill in until permanent replacements can be found, perhaps it would put them in their place.

That would accomplish nothing.

I understand how europe works, actually would be more accurate to say how it does not work lol.

Would you care to elaborate, then?

[UnderseaLcpl]

I've refrained from entering this discussion until now because, despite the whole "teachers or unions or kids to blame" thing, there seems to be a general, if loose, consensus amongst many here that I am in agreement with, and I think more discussion would be beneficial. I see no reason for the teacher-hate, and I agree with the distrust of modern unions for many reasons I have described before and which I try not to repeat too :DL often for the sake of, well, everyone here. Given the views presented, I haven't much perspective to add. However......

Koch Brother's, MSNBC's favorite target, they gotta have their boogeymen, of course it's two successful white businessmen they make the target but the New Black Panther Party, budget busting unions, radical islamists, aka the real bad guys, they are the victims according to the left and their propaganda agency, get real.
Bubblehead, as someone who is a staunch personal defender of the value-driven right, and a staunch public supporter of the fiscal right, may I say that you are not helping our common case one iota here? I can understand being upset over what we commonly consider to be the "leftist agenda", but what you have here is not a rational argument in the least. Actually, it comes off as being extremely bigoted, even to me.

What you are doing here is targeting what you assume to be the left you are talking to, which it isn't, and then unifying them by playing the role of the ignorant, label-tossing conservative. Good conservatives believe in the value of self-determination and the strength of individuals and their ideals to advance their agenda for the good of everyone, and they have the results to prove it. Bad conservatives are like bad liberals; they probably have some good points but all they ever manage to do is make the other side hate them via generalizations.




Not a member of the tea party but they are def not being used, just regular americans sick of the cra

Actually, the Tea Party is being used....to some extent. There have already been cases of Tea-Party nominees bending to pressure from special-interest groups whilst reciting the rhetoric. That's just a natural result of the system we have, but it isn't all bad news. The fact that the Republican Party has been forced to shift its priorities and be publicly responsible for a fiscally conservatvie stance is telling of a new shift in American conservative politics. Republican representatives are increasingly beginning to parrot Tea-Party ideals. Eventually, they'll start believing them as a whole. These kinds of platform shifts have taken place before, and in a fairly regular fashion.

The strength of conservatives and individualists comes from realizing that this is the case, not just blind trust.

[DarkFish]

I understand how europe works, actually would be more accurate to say how it does not work lol.Well you clearly demonstrate you don't.

[Aramike]

I can think of some spectacular failures that have followed in that line of planning. But it might work.I think it has a good chance, actually, considering we are competing with MN and IL. But yeah, there's certainly some risk.Here's a thought though on the whole benefits package, if there was a universal healthcare plan wouldn't that remove the unions need to bargain to get employees healthcare coverage from work ? Sure it would. But there are reasons why it would be disadvantageous for those members as well.

They have an incredible healthcare plan, by the way. But even more insane are their pensions. Collective bargaining has been a fiscal disaster when it comes to benefits.

[Aramike]

Imagine that. The Koch Brothers funded Walker's campaign. Now they're putting up astroturfing websites in support of his side in this. And their interest in the situation has to do with their business interests in the state.

Color me shocked.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/koch-brothers-behind-wisconsin-effort-to-kill-public-unions/



Couldn't agree more.Wait - it's wrong to have an opinion and put money in backing of that opinion?

Just in case you didn't know, unions do that all the time.

[mookiemookie]

Wait - it's wrong to have an opinion and put money in backing of that opinion?

Just in case you didn't know, unions do that all the time.

You're missing the point. It's not about grassroots activism, it's not about "regular Americans" and it's ALL about protecting the pocketbooks of the Koch brothers. And the rubes are being duped into believing it isn't.

[Aramike]

You're missing the point. It's not about grassroots activism, it's not about "regular Americans" and it's ALL about protecting the pocketbooks of the Koch brothers. And the rubes are being duped into believing it isn't.Funny, I've been saying the same thing about the teachers who are abandoning their students to serve the pocketbooks of the unions. So when your side does it, it's "grassroots" (even though it's already been widely reported that it's not). When the other side does it, it's astroturfing. I get it.

Mookie, why shouldn't employees be allowed to opt-out? Why shouldn't they be required to pursue union membership outside of the state payroll deduction mechanism?

Why did even FDR oppose unions for public servants?

[mookiemookie]

When people are unknowingly used as shills for big corporations, they're usually being used to fight against their own self interest. Sad, really.

[magic452]

When people are unknowingly used as shills for big Unions, they're usually being used to fight against everybody else's interest. Sad, really.

The other side of the same coin.

Magic

[Aramike]

When people are unknowingly used as shills for big corporations, they're usually being used to fight against their own self interest. Sad, really.So wait - you're actually choosing to generalize a statement in support of your opinion, BASED upon nothing more than someone ELSE'S opinion, rather than answer the specific questions posed by the controversy?

In case you haven't noticed, this controversy existed well before any corporation took out advertisements. Now I know it's generally impossible for a liberal to believe that anyone with a different opinion could independently formulate an opinion all by themselves, but I expected better of you.

Evidently I shouldn't have.

I asked very specific questions - instead, YOU were the astroturfer. Ironic.

Is it really this impossible for you to see any side but the standard talking points of the left? REALLY? I mean, is there even an independent thought there? You haven't even bothered to cite facts other than some guys took out ads. ON NO! You took some guy's blog and made it out to be a justification of your own opinion! Is this the level that your side now stoops to? Do you even know the facts of the issue? Do you even have a grey area regarding this?

Like I said, I expected better. Instead, all you provided was a talking point supported with a link provided by a guy with yet another talking point.

Is it really that hard to credit the other side with having well-formulated opinions despite the fact that you may disagree, due to your OWN well-formulated opinions? I generally have found that such cases are incapable of their own opinions beyond the opinion that they agree with a certain ideology. Is that really you?

[Tribesman]

I don't agree with all powerful unions we have a similar situation with the BA cabin crew strikes
A case in point which shows both sides of the problem. Cabin crew are one of the few remaining sections on BA that still have half decent contracts and half decent benefits with those contracts. The strike came about as the company illegally imposed new terms and conditions without getting new contracts.
Most of the rest of BA staff is now on a strictly part time 25 hour week which means they need 2 or 3 jobs to get a living wage or just stick with the 25 hours and get government handouts. The final section of BA workers is of course agency crap that has the wonderful benefit of paying absolute ****e wages to any muppet they can find and not only no security of employment but a legal guarantee that they will be sacked in the near future.
You can see why the firm wants to get rid of its actual workers who have hard won rights that took centuries to obtain, and you can see why the workers don't want to end up on the welfare poverty cycle the other workers got shafted with.

I understand how europe works, actually would be more accurate to say how it does not work lol.
:har::har::har::har::har::har:
Bubble, you repeatedly demonstrate that you don't know how your own country works, thanks for the even bigger laughs when you try and talk about other countries.

[Hottentot]

:har::har::har::har::har::har:
Bubble, you repeatedly demonstrate that you don't know how your own country works, thanks for the even bigger laughs when you try and talk about other countries.


Not that it didn't make me roll on the floor laughing too, but to be fair, I can symphatize with it when some Americans claim being annoyed of Europeans telling them how to run their country. On these forums and elsewhere.

[DarkFish]

Not that it didn't make me roll on the floor laughing too, but to be fair, I can symphatize with it when some Americans claim being annoyed of Europeans telling them how to run their country. On these forums and elsewhere.But to be honest there are a lot more god-fearing protestant republican patriots telling how bad and unfair and unlivable Europe is in their twisted minds :doh:

[Hottentot]

Actually there are not that many that I can think of. The ones that do it are just particularly loud and stay in our minds by being amusing. I don't know if they think the same of us, but does it matter?

[XabbaRus]

What hottentot said. There are only a couple but they are extremely vociferous.

I would love to be told how Europe doesn't work actually, could be an education.

Tribesman, I know someone whose daughter is a BA cabin crew member and from what I have been told she and most of her colleagues have no time for the ones stirring up the strike action and they get very good perks.

I'd love a job where I could get a return ticket from Australia to the UK for £150.

[Stealth Hunter]

Not that it didn't make me roll on the floor laughing too, but to be fair, I can symphatize with it when some Americans claim being annoyed of Europeans telling them how to run their country. On these forums and elsewhere.

In very few ways, I can agree as far as the annoyances are concerned. Overall, though, anybody who doesn't listen and at the very least consider the advice others give to them is, frankly, an absolute idiot. Pay attention, and you might learn something. Naturally, however, you will have people who think they know more than everybody else and who have no interest in learning, so they will never listen. It's a shame. It's not only true of politics, it's true of religion, education... everything, really.

What I find funny is the number of people all over the country, who have had no real interest in politics until recent years, that appear out of a crowd (whether it be at a protest or rally or here on the Internet) and start babbling on and on with political rhetoric about how to "solve" the problems we have. What they say is almost always very simplistic, and the solutions they propose are rarely soundly logical. It's foolish and astonishingly naive to think you can take any problem in the world that exists at a national or international level and easily condense it down into an elementary solution; there are no such solutions in a country of 311 million people, or in a world of over 6 billion people.

[Tribesman]

Tribesman, I know someone whose daughter is a BA cabin crew member and from what I have been told she and most of her colleagues have no time for the ones stirring up the strike action and they get very good perks.


Would by any chance your friends daughter be on a somewhat different contract from the long service people?

I'd love a job where I could get a return ticket from Australia to the UK for £150.
Yoo hoo ...terms and conditions apply , you can get on a plane at the last minute if its got a seat the company cannot sell and you happen to have paid and be at the top of the staff standby list......and your two way ticket is only one wayuntil therer


is a one way opening coming back

[Tribesman]

Sorry , to clear up...
Xabba , would the upset people be the people whom have an absolutely crap contract and thery have no sympathy with the old contract people as they have chosen to take ****e terms and conditions and have no recourse to collective bargainig as even if they can get a union and strike together they are banned from any strike action or collective negociation?

I'd love a job where I could get a return ticket from Australia to the UK for £150.
Sod that . I want 4 free local standbys and one preferencial transatlantic.

Return????? you can keep your pay 10%........its only a standby flight at 10% of full first class rates

[Tribesman]

Sorry , but if you brits wanted to jump on the anti union wagon couldn't you have gone for steelworks to at least give yourself a chance at making an arguement?

[Bubblehead1980]

When people are unknowingly used as shills for big corporations, they're usually being used to fight against their own self interest. Sad, really.

Thing is, the budget fight is not about just self interest, it is about what will help the state of Wisconsin get it's budget under control.The Governor is trying to curb the major fiscal drain but the teachers/unions are being selfish and worrying about themselves, not the entire state.

I am all about the individual but most individuals, esp the very idiots protesting Governor Walker will suffer if the state does not fix it's fiscal problem, which means dealing with the unsustainable demands of the public employee unions.They should worry about their students and the big picture.

[Bubblehead1980]

:har::har::har::har::har::har:
Bubble, you repeatedly demonstrate that you don't know how your own country works, thanks for the even bigger laughs when you try and talk about other countries.[/QUOTE]


You are quite the troll, please tell me how my country works? I seriously doubt you have the slightest clue.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Should I read this thread? Or will it just confirm my belief we are descending into Idiocracy?

[DarkFish]

You are quite the troll, please tell me how my country works? I seriously doubt you have the slightest clue.Well at least he knows a lot better how your country works than you know about how Europe works.


Should I read this thread? Or will it just confirm my belief we are descending into Idiocracy?No and yes:yep:

[Sailor Steve]

Should I read this thread? Or will it just confirm my belief we are descending into Idiocracy?
Are you already there waiting for the rest of us? If not, why are you asking?

[Tribesman]

You are quite the troll, please tell me how my country works? I seriously doubt you have the slightest clue.
Well bubbles , when I send some dumb micks I have trained off to your country do I suggest they get a quick cash handy payment job, do I suggest they get a 4 passport return visit jobdo I suggest they do a 90 day and repeat or do I suggest they go longhau and make sure they not only get their basic entitlements people have fought for but also make sure they ain't gonna get bankrupted by a small accidentl?
maybe I suggest they go for a J but that ain't worth a wank since 9/11....
so come on mr.... "I ain't gonna learn nothing from my teachers as they is indoctrinated and I is going totootwo skool too not listen two techers as they is do be dem commy atheist muslim media liberals"

...Or do I go by some school boy ignorance and pretend I can tell the difference between Lichtenstein and Luxembourg:har:

[Sailor Steve]

Man, Tribes, when you're hot you're hot! :rock:

[Tribesman]

Man, Tribes, when you're hot you're hot!
Not really as the 4 genuine passport thing is out the window now with biometrics and the old overstay route via the philipines is now big for the terror watch sweep.
Like I said the Js aint worth bugger all now as it just isn't worth the employers paperwork which puts it all down to the 90s which means no revenue for uncle sam at all.
Not that I know anything about that continent like:woot:

[Bubblehead1980]

Well bubbles , when I send some dumb micks I have trained off to your country do I suggest they get a quick cash handy payment job, do I suggest they get a 4 passport return visit jobdo I suggest they do a 90 day and repeat or do I suggest they go longhau and make sure they not only get their basic entitlements people have fought for but also make sure they ain't gonna get bankrupted by a small accidentl?
maybe I suggest they go for a J but that ain't worth a wank since 9/11....
so come on mr.... "I ain't gonna learn nothing from my teachers as they is indoctrinated and I is going totootwo skool too not listen two techers as they is do be dem commy atheist muslim media liberals"

...Or do I go by some school boy ignorance and pretend I can tell the difference between Lichtenstein and Luxembourg:har:


I will give you this, you are entertaining.Except you forgot I have no problem with atheists.:arrgh!: You get personal often, which is amusing.

[Gerald]

Pie throwing at a higher level ^^

[Penguin]

all of a sudden, this thread became amusing!

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3821/popcorn10000.jpg

[krashkart]

Woohoo! That's enough popcorn for everybody. :yeah:


I'll add to the smorgasbord:

http://www.bubbies.com/images/prod_pickled_herring_lg.jpg http://darthmojo.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ap_twinkie_070426_mn.jpg


Bon appetit! :D

[yubba]

Some humble pie, mmmmmmmmm pie