Florida Governor axes "Obamarail" (bravo!)

[Bubblehead1980]

Florida Governor Rick Scott(R) has rejected billions in Federal money for the high speed rail system proposed by Barack Obama.Nice to see someone who is actually serious about fiscal responsibility and removing government from as many things as possible.I voted for Scott in November's very close race and am proud to see someone in public office actually trying to stick to their word.

http://www.wtsp.com/includes/tools/print.aspx?storyid=175236

[August]

That is sure a breath of fresh air...

[DarkFish]

I don't think it's a really smart move. Short term, yes it will save the federal government a few bucks. But in the long run not building the railway could very well prove a stupid move.

Why is Japan technologically superior to both the US and Europe? Because they have invested in development from very early on. They started building high-speed railways in the mid-sixties, and ever since their technological level has been continuously increasing. More than "The West", where we kind of leveled off our development by spending less money on it.

And that's exactly why Asia (with Japan as development center and China as production center) will be the new world leaders, both economically and technologically, instead of the US and Europe.

[mookiemookie]

How dare we spend money on things that would reduce reliance on foreign oil.

[August]

Did you guys even bother to read the article? It's not about saving the Federal Government money, it's a big federal boondoggle that will end up being a serious and ongoing financial drain on the taxpayers of Florida. This is about getting Barak Obama elected, not about providing jobs or improving mass transit.

Let me quote the relevant parts for you:


My decision to reject the project comes down to three main economic realities:
- First - capital cost overruns from the project could put Florida taxpayers on the hook for an additional $3 billion.
- Second - ridership and revenue projections are historically overly-optimistic and would likely result in ongoing subsidies that state taxpayers would have to incur. (from $300 million - $575 million over 10 years) - Note: The state subsidizes Tri-Rail $34.6 million a year while passenger revenues covers only $10.4 million of the $64 million annual operating budget.
- Finally - if the project becomes too costly for taxpayers and is shut down, the state would have to return the $2.4 billion in federal funds to D.C.


- The truth is that this project would be far too costly to taxpayers and I believe the risk far outweighs the benefits.
- Historical data shows capital cost overruns are pervasive in 9 out of 10 high speed rail projects and that 2/3 of those projects inflated ridership projections by an average of 65 percent of actual patronage.
- It is projected that 3.07 million people will use the train annually. Keep in mind that Amtrak's Acela train in Washington, D.C., Boston, Philadelphia, New York and Baltimore only had 3.2 million riders in 2010. And that market's population is 8 times the size of the Tampa/Orlando market.

[MaddogK]

How dare we spend money on things that would reduce reliance on foreign oil.

What kind of car do you drive ?

[mookiemookie]

What kind of car do you drive ?

A fuel efficient one and less than 5000 miles a year. That's as much personal details as you'll get out of me.

[Bubblehead1980]

Did you guys even bother to read the article? It's not about saving the Federal Government money, it's a big federal boondoggle that will end up being a serious and ongoing financial drain on the taxpayers of Florida. This is about getting Barak Obama elected, not about providing jobs or improving mass transit.

Let me quote the relevant parts for you:



Thanks for pointing that out, I was going to be you did the work for me, good job:salute:

High speed rail would be nice BUT right now, we don't have the money in Florida to get caught up in what will be a drain, so our governor did his job and stuck up for the citizens of Florida.Perhaps when good times return can move forward with this.Also, people in the US who have a car generally do not want to use trains etc for most part because why do that when can come/go on your own schedule with no waiting other than traffic so as mentioned it'd end up being a drain because not enough people would use it.

More an election ploy than anything, good job Governor Scott.

[Takeda Shingen]

I can't wait to see what the Republicans' solution to reducing our dependence on oil will be.

Oh, and if anyone is interested, I drive a 2008 Honda Civic hybrid coupe (black). 43 MPG city/55 MPG highway. However, I ride my bike to work three days a week. Great exercise. :up:

[Growler]

Two Words.

Am Trak.

[AVGWarhawk]

Two Words.

Am Trak.

:yep:

Two other words...losing proposition. Just like Am Trak.

[MaddogK]

A fuel efficient one and less than 5000 miles a year. That's as much personal details as you'll get out of me.

Just curious, but since you didn't say hybrid or electric you aren't spending enough money on things that would reduce reliance on foreign oil, at least not as much as those who don't drive at all and rely on trains or public transportation to get to work.

Nice TS, I ride a bicycle 8 months out of a year to/from work, my car hasn't seen daylight in over 10 years. Of course the motorcycle gets near 50 MPG on the highway but that only gets on the road twice a year.

[mookiemookie]

Just curious, but since you didn't say hybrid or electric you aren't spending enough money on things that would reduce reliance on foreign oil, at least not as much as those who don't drive at all and rely on trains or public transportation to get to work.

That has absolutely zero bearing on the topic at hand. The government should be making investments in order to reduce reliance on foreign oil. End of story. To say that someone who doesn't walk on foot everywhere isn't entitled to that belief is childish.

[gimpy117]

Two Words.

Am Trak.

Am Trak is out of date when it comes to people moving. Its slow and outdated and unable to compete with Aircraft: which are HEAVILY Dependant on oil. If you fly coast to coast you have burned more fuel than driving all year. I'm studying to enter the industry and I can even see that aircraft as the main source of travel for our society is unsustainable. It simply uses to much fuel, and unless there is some magic breakthrough, you can't power a flying machine on clean energy.

Oh and By the way, Amtrak was set up by the government in 1971 and all of its preferred stock is held by the US federal govt. ;)

[MaddogK]

That has absolutely zero bearing on the topic at hand.

Ohh no, it's got everything to do with the topic. You'de like to think that sinking billions of dollars on a rail system that doesn't have the ridership is a good idea, but you don't live there, you won't be paying for it once the federal dollars stop flowing into the project. I would imagine the you'll be one of the first to complain when the system doesn't make a profit, and your federal tax dollars go to support it instead of going into social security, right ?

Look at Amtrak, been losing money for years, but we're all still paying their bills.

[yubba]

Government can't run a cementary let alone a railroad, thank god for Rick Scott maybe we'll get some sanity in our state government. They spent years and a untolled amount of money study-ing this boondoggle. I wouldn't mind seeing a transit rail system here in florida, the tracks are already laid, all they got to do is put trains on them. Government waste is not the way to prosparity.

[mookiemookie]

Look at Amtrak, been losing money for years, but we're all still paying their bills.

"I had a lemon of a Ford once, so all cars suck."

[AVGWarhawk]

Oh and By the way, Amtrak was set up by the government in 1971 and all of its preferred stock is held by the US federal govt. ;)

That in itself should make one think twice!!!

[gimpy117]

Look at Amtrak, been losing money for years, but we're all still paying their bills.

funny how were subsidizing airlines too.

[AVGWarhawk]

funny how were subsidizing airlines too.

And GM, Dodge, Wall Street.....on it goes.

[yubba]

And yet the Government is still broke, and might have to shut down in a couple of weeks.

[MaddogK]

"I had a lemon of a Ford once, so all cars suck."
Wasn't it Einstien who said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expect a different result"

[gimpy117]

And GM, Dodge, Wall Street.....on it goes.

so why are we having a cow about Amtrak being subsidized? its it like some kind of red headed step child?

another point:

rails uses about half the fuel of Aircraft per passenger mile and has higher revenue.

[AVGWarhawk]

so why are we having a cow about Amtrak being subsidized? its it like some kind of red headed step child?

another point:

rails uses about half the fuel of Aircraft per passenger mile and has higher revenue.

Who is having a cow? It is a point of fact. Am Trak is a loser. It is government subsidized and nothing but a burden on tax payors. The new high speed rail will be the same and really does nothing but funnel more folks into Disneyland than anything. Really, of what use is high speed rail in Florida? Nothing comes out of Florida but newly weds and newly dead. So it is a people pusher. Certainly not a freight train. Disney will love it. Those roadside places that survive on the car travelers going to Florida will die a slow death. The people in FL that are retired on a fixed income...what of them? Rail to NY out of MD cost the same as flying. What big savings for passengers to entice them to ride are we talking here? I would say not much if any.

[August]

"I had a lemon of a Ford once, so all cars suck."

If 9 out of 10 of your Fords were lemons then it would be a far more accurate analogy.

[UnderseaLcpl]

As a railroader myself, I think I have a uniquely qualified perspective to offer, and I have to agree with Gov. Scott's decision.

I can understand the desire to have a socially-funded, eco-friendly, high-effeciency passenger rail service. It certainly seems like it would be the right thing to do for a number of reasons. Unfortunately, it doesn't work.

The main reason and most related reasons it doesn't work is (surprise) that the US government is in charge of it. I realize that the actual administration takes place below the federal level, but what ought to be relatively simple act of operating a rail line, especially a passenger rail line, is so bound up in regulations, red tape, fairness legislation, government unions, and legal liability that it is literally impossible without increasingly vast amounts of taxpayer money, even for the government.

My employer, BNSF Railways, would love to provide passenger service. In fact, we were seriously considering getting back into the business when Obama first started talking about devoting funds to improve the national passenger rail network, as was the Union Pacific. There are quite a few routes that have potential for profitability.

However, even with the money we would have received, after we lobbied and got more, it still wasn't even close to worth the effort. No money in it. It's that difficult. As it is, we have a hard enough time expanding our rail-freight network, which was "deregulated" like 40 years ago. Deregulated my arse. I have a general operations manual that's thicker than War and Peace and roughly as comprehensible and relevant.....if it were written in Cyrillic instead of legalese, and as topical.

Trains are extremely efficient. Just one train can carry 10,000 tons of freight 400 miles while consuming only one gallon of gas per ton. Passenger trains are only slightly less efficient because of space requirements, but they weigh a lot less and don't require as much effort to accelerate. And they do it at the rate of 3 accidents per million miles traveled. You'd think that with stats like that the government would be throwing money and permissions at us, to promote public safety and get trucks and cars off the road, but it doesn't.

What proponents are missing is the fact that the government doesn't really care about the same things they do. Politicians may profess to be concerned about the environment or safety or what have you, but their professed concern doesn't stop them from ruining passenger rail service by trying to control it or throwing money at special interests or making a statement for the benefit of voters or bothering to learn just exactly what the hell it is they're doing in the first place. For the record, I consider Gov. Scott to be among their number. He's just riding the political winds, which is about all you can expect from someone whose entire reason for existence hinges upon votes.

Of course, private industry is not a panacea. We're not going to spend $1.5 million per mile of track for the sole purpose of establishing a passenger line out of the goodness of our hearts, but what we will do is establish passenger lines in profitable areas, which are necessarily densely populated and badly in need of the service.

[yubba]

Where in the world does BNSF run ? I was involved with FEC rail for awhile, unloading hopper cars. I can't run a limo service, because of all government regs and fuel cost, that hampered florida's sun rail. And they say big government is the answer, more government means less jobs, do the math.

[mookiemookie]

Of course, private industry is not a panacea. We're not going to spend $1.5 million per mile of track for the sole purpose of establishing a passenger line out of the goodness of our hearts, but what we will do is establish passenger lines in profitable areas, which are necessarily densely populated and badly in need of the service.

Perhaps the place to start would be local commuter rails in larger metro areas. If we could get a handle on shuttling people from the suburbs into work and back again at the end of the day, then it would be less of a "giant leap" into connecting cities with rail lines.

[Armistead]

The fact is high speed rail would've been a good idea at the right time, but it really depends of local. We're not Japan, in very small highly populated areas high rail has a use. I honesly don't see where we need it cept maybe a few areas and bus service would probably be better.

If it's a great idea, let a private company build it and make it profitable.

Sure, the world is leaving us behind in technology, but nations like Japan and India educate. They don't deal with millions of illegals or teachers unions. Our school systems in NC suck and were probably rated higher than most states for population.

What we need before anything is an energy policy, the leading country of the world and no plan at all, it has to start with oil, clean coal, natural gas, nuclear, ect...and build the future from there. Trying to force solar and wind now as the priority is plain stupid.

The rail would be another government run corporate monopoly before it was over.

[Tchocky]

The golden journey time seems to around 4-5 hours - that's where people will take a train journey rather than fly. The speed reduction is outweighed by the city-centre location of train stations and the lack of security/check-in time restrictions.

[MaddogK]

January 28, 2010 6:37 AM
Illinois will get $1.1 billion to make track improvements to enable 110 mph passenger trains between Chicago and St. Louis, under a new federal stimulus plan to be announced Thursday by President Obama.

Don't think there's much need for a 110 MPH train to run to st.louis from chicago, but the rails have been used for years. I remember booking a trip on Amtrak a few years ago from chicago to Albuquerque, run took 3 days and cost twice as much money as a plane ticket. I was sooooo bored.

Word is they might build a line up to Milwalkee, thats one that may actually be a good idea tho a 110 MPH train will be hard to build unless the entire line is elevated or below ground- both EXPENSIVE options.

[AVGWarhawk]

Trying to force solor and wind now as the priority is plain stupid.


These are truly emission free sources of energy. Clean coal? I do not believe clean coal exists. There is nothing clean about it as far as I can tell. Nuclear? What about the byproduct that lasts for centuries? Natural gas? Is the the cleanest out of the bunch of burning material?

[August]

These are truly emission free sources of energy. Clean coal? I do not believe clean coal exists. There is nothing clean about it as far as I can tell. Nuclear? What about the byproduct that lasts for centuries? Natural gas? Is the the cleanest out of the bunch of burning material?

Nothing is the perfect solution. Even solar and wind systems both require batteries which are highly polluting to manufacture and highly polluting to dispose of.

And natural gas has a disturbing tendancy to blow things up.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110210/ap_on_re_us/us_building_explosion
http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-09-10/news/23996646_1_gas-line-explosion-wind-whipped-blaze-smoke-inhalation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison,_New_Jersey_natural_gas_explosion
http://www.heatingoil.com/blog/123290208/
http://travel.usatoday.com/hotels/post/2010/11/mexico-natural-gas-explosion-kills-five-tourists/131116/1

[Sailor Steve]

Milwalkee
:o

:rotfl2:

[MaddogK]

:o

:rotfl2:

Didn't spell check that one- good catch.
;)

[Sailor Steve]

Didn't spell check that one- good catch.
;)
And you took it so well I'll now apologize for being mean. :sunny:

[Buddahaid]

Don't forget that the governments past interest is transportation systems had everything to do with national security and rapid mobilization.

[August]

Don't forget that the governments past interest is transportation systems had everything to do with national security and rapid mobilization.

And that interest is still just as valid today too.

I understand now that Florida isn't alone. Governors in Ohio and Wisconsin have also rejected it.

[Gargamel]

Wasn't it Einstien who said "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expect a different result"

No.

It's just the definition of mental Illness. "Repeating the same action over and over, expecting a different result".


FWIW, I'm saddened to see resistance to a high speed rail system. It's one of the things that make Europe great, is the ability to get anywhere, quickly, and fairly cheaply and efficiently.

The reason Amtrak doesn't work is cause it's burdened by the low-speed rail lines it has to run on. If they were to design and build a high speed rail system, for passenger and light traffic only, then it would be a lot more cost and fuel efficient than any other means of travel.

[August]

The reason Amtrak doesn't work is cause it's burdened by the low-speed rail lines it has to run on. If they were to design and build a high speed rail system, for passenger and light traffic only, then it would be a lot more cost and fuel efficient than any other means of travel.

Just curious, how much would it cost to design and build a high speed rail system down the Bos-Wash Corridor? and would there be enough passengers to turn a profit?

I'm saddened to see resistance to a high speed rail system. It's one of the things that make Europe great, is the ability to get anywhere, quickly, and fairly cheaply and efficiently. Hmmm, well unless its changed since i lived there, it's not exactly anywhere, it's not nearly as quick as a personal vehicle, and if sleeping in the Wuzburg train station waiting for the morning train to Ansbach is efficient, well... :hmmm::DL but it WAS cheap compared to gas and car costs.

[breadcatcher101]

Better to have more trains like Amtrak's Auto train than to invest in a project like high-speed rail.

People love their cars and the Auto Train takes them along with you.

It wouldn't work everywhere, but for popular destinations such as central Florida it works great.

[TFatseas]

Us Americans are a car culture, one that I admit I'm a very big part of.;)

It's a waste of money to spend on something people would not use, myself included, that's how I see it.

Heck, around here trains are viewed not much more than a novelty.

Just IMO.

[Sailor Steve]

No.

It's just the definition of mental Illness. "Repeating the same action over and over, expecting a different result".
Wrong. It has been attributed to Einstein, but without proof. It is most certainly not "the definition of mental illness", or the definition of insanity.

It is a joke definition, not a real one.

[Gargamel]

Wrong. It has been attributed to Einstein, but without proof. It is most certainly not "the definition of mental illness", or the definition of insanity.

It is a joke definition, not a real one.

All I know is that my psych prof's (back when I was a comp sci / psych double major) always called that the definition of. One of them even claimed to have found it in the DSM IV. *shrug* It is too cute to be a clinical definition, but I know Einstein probably never said it.


Anyways, I know a High speed rail here in Ohio would be great, a Cleveland-Columbus-Cincy line would be awesome. The right of way is pretty much already built with I-71, just gotta elevate parts of it. Be real cool to run down to Columbus for a day to catch a jackets game without the 3 hour drive on each end. And the College traffic (OSU, UC, etc) would love it. And the East-West routes would be great. Buffalo-Cle-Detroit-Chicago, Pitt-Columbus-Indy.

[August]

Anyways, I know a High speed rail here in Ohio would be great, a Cleveland-Columbus-Cincy line would be awesome. The right of way is pretty much already built with I-71, just gotta elevate parts of it. Be real cool to run down to Columbus for a day to catch a jackets game without the 3 hour drive on each end. And the College traffic (OSU, UC, etc) would love it. And the East-West routes would be great. Buffalo-Cle-Detroit-Chicago, Pitt-Columbus-Indy.

That is just the type of local knowledge that any Federal program is going to lack. All they know is what the unions and a dozen other special interests tell them. That's why we get bridges to nowhere...

[DarkFish]

If it's a great idea, let a private company build it and make it profitable.Well that's the point, short-term it's probably not a good investment so no private company will ever do it.

Sure, the world is leaving us behind in technology, but nations like Japan and India educate. They don't deal with millions of illegals or teachers unions. Our school systems in NC suck and were probably rated higher than most states for population.No, countries like Japan (I wouldn't really count India) invest. They invest in technology, thereby promoting its usage, thereby increasing the need and the tech level of the country.

What we need before anything is an energy policy, the leading country of the world and no plan at all, it has to start with oil, clean coal, natural gas, nuclear, ect...and build the future from there. Trying to force solar and wind now as the priority is plain stupid.Did someone tell you yet the world oil supply is running out? And clean coal doesn't exist. Natural gas will run out sometime as well. And nuclear energy produces tons of waste.
Solar, wind and water energy don't produce waste and are completely free.

Hmmm, well unless its changed since i lived there, it's not exactly anywhere, it's not nearly as quick as a personal vehicle, and if sleeping in the Wuzburg train station waiting for the morning train to Ansbach is efficient, well... :hmmm::DL but it WAS cheap compared to gas and car costs. That's the normal train system. Using the high-speed train system, you can get from Amsterdam to Paris in just 3 hours, way faster than any car can do.

[Armistead]

Dark,

If a private firm can't do it with profit, the government certainly couldn't, short term or long. Again, where it can be made to work in areas run by the private sector, a combination of federal and private money should make it happen as a non profit.

Right now America is broke, it's infrastructure crumbling, SS and medicare 60 trillion in debt and millions of Americans falling into poverty every month. SS nor medicare should be broke, but government spent it and mass cuts are coming that will devestate those already in poverty. The last thing we need is more government waste. The world is debating and no doubt will eventually drop the US dollar if we don't control spending. When in crisis you only spend on what's needed.

The first thing you must have to create technology is the educated people to invent it, make it, market it, run it and make it profitable why affordable.

The US has no energy plan. I agree we need to turn to other resources, but it will take time and we won't be able to transition from oil to solar for decades. We will need other forms of energy. Eventually the natural process of oil will become more expensive and the markets will seek to mass market better solutions. We're certainly headed for a energy crisis, so I'm in the camp...Do everything. If we have a failed economy, we won't have the money for any investment.

I think the world will face major crisis in the future. Many think it will have to be solved by a global government takeover of the worlds resources, but my guess is the problem will resolve itself the normal way...war, famine, disease, ect....and this time it will set us back 100 years.

TB Pickens failed in the wind business, now he is pushing natural gas.



Just read the difference between the US and Japan. If the US has any chance to hold a tech advantage in the future, we'll have to continue to import higher education. We've created a generation of lazy youth that have no discipline that will be a health care crisis in cost due to so many overweight.



"By the graduating age of the average American high school student, a substantial number of these students have little knowledge of geography or relative historical events (Hirsch 8 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Hirsch)). Of the 2.4 million Americans who graduate from high school, 25% cannot read or write at the eighth-grade or "functionally literate" level. http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/kim/BusinessWeek-Kim.JPGMost 17 year olds in school cannot summarize a newspaper article, write a job request letter, solve real life math problems, or even follow a bus schedule (Ehrlich 129 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Ehrlich)). About 33% of American high school students drop out every year and after 12 weeks of summer vacation, the average American student forgets 33% of what he had learned the previous year (Trudeau 1 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Trudeau)).
A typical Japanese student spends 6 hours every night doing homework during a school year that is 60 days longer than America's (Trudeau 1 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Trudeau)). Following a regular school day 18.6% of elementary school children and 52.2% of middle school children attend Juku cramming schools bringing them home at midnight from an 18 hour work day (Weisman A8 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Weisman)). At the age of 18, 98% voluntarily seek higher education in a university. In early adolescence, Japanese students are 2 to 3 years ahead of their American counterparts and by the age of 18, 98% of Japanese students far surpass that of Americans of the same age. It's no surprise then that a 10th grade Japanese student is envious of the leisure time enjoyed by American college sophomores, his academic counterpart"

[Sailor Steve]

"By the graduating age of the average American high school student, a substantial number of these students have little knowledge of geography or relative historical events (Hirsch 8 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Hirsch)). Of the 2.4 million Americans who graduate from high school, 25% cannot read or write at the eighth-grade or "functionally literate" level.
One only needs to read these boards to know that's true.

[August]

That's the normal train system. Using the high-speed train system, you can get from Amsterdam to Paris in just 3 hours, way faster than any car can do.

How many times a day does it make the trip? What's the cost of a ticket? How much baggage can you carry with you? Does it cost extra for baggage? Can you bring pets aboard? What would be the cost to get from Paris to Meaux? What would be the cost of getting from, Nijmegen, to Amsterdam? How much time would those legs add to the trip?

As you can see there are a lot more factors involved than just the speed of one part of a journey.

[DarkFish]

How many times a day does it make the trip? What's the cost of a ticket? How much baggage can you carry with you? Does it cost extra for baggage? Can you bring pets aboard? What would be the cost to get from Paris to Meaux? What would be the cost of getting from, Nijmegen, to Amsterdam? How much time would those legs add to the trip?

As you can see there are a lot more factors involved than just the speed of one part of a journey.And I won't deny that. A high speed railway would be a huge investment, and I don't know if it would repay itself. But neither do most people here, yet I see loads of people claim investing in it is a bad idea. While they don't know half the story.

[DarkFish]

If a private firm can't do it with profit, the government certainly couldn't, short term or long.Not directly, no. In fact, I think the short-term costs would far outweigh the short-term profits.
But the development of one high-tech system promotes the development and usage of other high-tech systems. Which could bring back the US as a world leader in technology, thereby improving the economy. Which would give profits. Long term profits. Not directly, the railway itself might make losses until eternity, but indirectly there is a very real chance it would turn out positive.

The last thing we need is more government waste. The world is debating and no doubt will eventually drop the US dollar if we don't control spending. When in crisis you only spend on what's needed.True. But there are some things you shouldn't stop spending money on. One of those is development and education. Without those you'll inevitably come into technological stagnation, which will lead to economic stagnation. Which is what is happening right now.

And BTW, the US dollar will be eventually dropped if you don't increase spending on development.

The first thing you must have to create technology is the educated people to invent it, make it, market it, run it and make it profitable why affordable. Which proves my point. You don't have the people, so you don't invest in it, so you don't have the people. A vicious circle, isn't it?

The US has no energy plan. I agree we need to turn to other resources, but it will take time and we won't be able to transition from oil to solar for decades. We will need other forms of energy. Eventually the natural process of oil will become more expensive and the markets will seek to mass market better solutions. We're certainly headed for a energy crisis, so I'm in the camp...Do everything. If we have a failed economy, we won't have the money for any investment.Exactly! So you must invest now that you still have *some* money. Because there will be a time when it's too late, and I promise you don't want to be in the losing camp then.

I think the world will face major crisis in the future. Many think it will have to be solved by a global government takeover of the worlds resources, but my guess is the problem will resolve itself the normal way...war, famine, disease, ect....and this time it will set us back 100 years. :agree:

Just read the difference between the US and Japan. If the US has any chance to hold a tech advantage in the future, we'll have to continue to import higher education. We've created a generation of lazy youth that have no discipline that will be a health care crisis in cost due to so many overweight.



"By the graduating age of the average American high school student, a substantial number of these students have little knowledge of geography or relative historical events (Hirsch 8 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Hirsch)). Of the 2.4 million Americans who graduate from high school, 25% cannot read or write at the eighth-grade or "functionally literate" level. http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/kim/BusinessWeek-Kim.JPGMost 17 year olds in school cannot summarize a newspaper article, write a job request letter, solve real life math problems, or even follow a bus schedule (Ehrlich 129 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Ehrlich)). About 33% of American high school students drop out every year and after 12 weeks of summer vacation, the average American student forgets 33% of what he had learned the previous year (Trudeau 1 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Trudeau)).
A typical Japanese student spends 6 hours every night doing homework during a school year that is 60 days longer than America's (Trudeau 1 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Trudeau)). Following a regular school day 18.6% of elementary school children and 52.2% of middle school children attend Juku cramming schools bringing them home at midnight from an 18 hour work day (Weisman A8 (http://eserver.org/courses/fall95/76-100g/papers/cited.html#Weisman)). At the age of 18, 98% voluntarily seek higher education in a university. In early adolescence, Japanese students are 2 to 3 years ahead of their American counterparts and by the age of 18, 98% of Japanese students far surpass that of Americans of the same age. It's no surprise then that a 10th grade Japanese student is envious of the leisure time enjoyed by American college sophomores, his academic counterpart"Couldn't agree more (I don't know/think the Japanese universitary education is so much better than the US, but generally speaking the Japanese education is indeed better AFAIK)
How hard it may seem, you have to keep spending on development (which includes education). Cause if you don't, you'll face the consequences later. It's either "lose some money now" or "lose a lot of money later".

[CaptainHaplo]

It's one of the things that make Europe great, is the ability to get anywhere, quickly, and fairly cheaply and efficiently.

Ok - now no offense to Gargamel, but this just proves that "infrastructure" investment like this for economic development does NOT work. Yes, Europe has spent untold sums on high speed rail. The overall European economy sucks even worse than the US one does right now. You have whole countries begging for bailouts. High speed rail did nothing to help them develop economically. If anything, it was one more mega-spending idea that sucked up good money for very little return.

I love railroads. I have a weakness for trains and have since I was a kid. But simply put, people don't use the train. The day where trains are a significant factor in moving people has long passed, and will not return. Trains are suited now for moving STUFF - they excel at it. But no one wants to live beside train tracks. Just like people don't want to live next to an airport.

There are a lot of reasons passenger trains are not the answer for the US. For a day trip maybe, but if its longer than a that, people want the freedom that their automobile gives them - in a "new" place they want to explore - and not from the back of an expensive cab! Ultimately, there isn't enough people traffic to make a passenger train viable without governmental support long term. We may not like it, but that is simply the fact. Let the trains do what they do best - haul stuff.

[Tribesman]

Ok - now no offense to Gargamel, but this just proves that "infrastructure" investment like this for economic development does NOT work. Yes, Europe has spent untold sums on high speed rail. The overall European economy sucks even worse than the US one does right now. You have whole countries begging for bailouts. High speed rail did nothing to help them develop economically. If anything, it was one more mega-spending idea that sucked up good money for very little return.


Don't ya just love how haplo can relate unrelated points and think it makes a point.
So some countries in Europe spent money on high speed rail and transport infrastructure, some didn't, some countries in europe are buggered financially some are not.
So unless its the countries that spent on high speed rail that are the ones that are buggered haplo has no point at all.
So the buggered countries
Greece.
Damn they didn't get it started.

Ireland spent some money on rail, not quite high speed investment but it bought a few trains that can go nearly as fast as a slow car on a bad road and it reopened an old line that was built in 1800s ....its one of the countries that is buggered

Spain is buggered financialy and has high speed rail so maybe haplo has a point there....but Spains problem started with a large amount of very dodgy private ventures that make Ireland look like a bastion of honesty in business and politics with sound application of the laws and absolutely no corruption at all.:rotfl2:

Portugal ...oops hasn't started.

Italy...private venture so thats outside the scope of government run.

So out of the PIIGS in europe only one has the state doing high speed rail and its finacial problems stem from a dodgy private sector and complete lack of regulation not transport.

That does suggest that Haplo has no point at all:up:

The day where trains are a significant factor in moving people has long passed
Better tell that to the chinese, that emerging superpower that is going to be the next top dog is spending a fortune on a comprehensive high speed rail network...then again they do have a lot of people to move over large areas and everyone knows that you use planes to do that:88)

[yubba]

Yet there are some goof balls, that still want to push this down our throats. Latest update now they want to put in a 20 mile stretch from the airport to the convention center that's just retarded.