US debt crisis. Let's discuss about it here. Shoot your opinions.

[Castout]

Cover story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DCoWIK6X4Y


Recent news
http://wallstreetpit.com/61984-debt-crisis-why-the-worst-is-yet-to-come


Not so recent news
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/20/debt-crisis-threatens-us-cities



Umm seems a lot of US policy makers are still thinking you can spend your way to prosperity and assuming sustainable great economic growth in the long run into the future. A bit worrisome to me. :hmmm:

[redsocialist]

If you really want to fix a capitalist economy, inthis case the US, then they need to stop the military spending, stop all the foreign spending, stop offshoring and bring a new US manafacturing basis.

Neoliberalism is what destroyed the US economy ever since regan.

My take.
:salute:

[Freiwillige]

If you really want to fix a capitalist economy, inthis case the US, then they need to stop the military spending, stop all the foreign spending, stop offshoring and bring a new US manafacturing basis.

Neoliberalism is what destroyed the US economy ever since regan.

My take.
:salute:

Wow oddly enough I almost entirely agree with him.

[Aramike]

If you really want to fix a capitalist economy, inthis case the US, then they need to stop the military spending, stop all the foreign spending, stop offshoring and bring a new US manafacturing basis.

Neoliberalism is what destroyed the US economy ever since regan.

My take.
:salute:Military spending is the singular best way to enhance domestic manufacturing, at least in wartime.

My take is that we need to address our severe trade imbalances and require equal access to the markets of our "trading" partners. We need to leverage our buying power into selling power, and requiring equal access to the markets will mean, say, the Chinese would have to buy our products rather than merely our debt in attempts at placation.

[Castout]

My take is that we need to address our severe trade imbalances and require equal access to the markets of our "trading" partners. We need to leverage our buying power into selling power, and requiring equal access to the markets will mean, say, the Chinese would have to buy our products rather than merely our debt in attempts at placation.

That's quite hard isn't it. US has been without domestic economic development plan since I don't know when, probably ever, leaving it to the market and greed. Kind of make you wonder whether you should tie patriotism with economic endeavor. :hmmm:

Pragmatism will backfire in the long run. Sure US has a big economy but just how much of that proportion is dripping into the majority of people. The nightmarish situation would be for very few people having very ridiculous amount of wealth controlling and having access to much of the economy and nation's wealth while the majority of citizens are living paycheck to paycheck. If you have that how could the government get an optimum revenue? And the country will be run by few elites or mob having the power to control the politicians and bureaucrats and policies to their benefits. Better distributed wealth will boost a nation's revenue imo. Economy will be much more robust and economic growth would even be higher.

[Armistead]

SS, medicare and defense take up...did I hear about 80% of the budget. Politicains don't want to touch it, but SS and medicare owed out to those paid in is over 60 trillion and both are broke. Politicians will pass the problem another two election cycles, but both will need major cuts. Most americans know the programs will probably be gone in 15 years.

Spending on a large war machine obviously hasn't helped the economy, not to mention the high profits go to a small percent and the total cost of war, rebuilding nations nils any gain to the US economy. I think the military budget this year even under Obama is over 700 billion.

We have more than 700 bases worldwide, a few 100 in Europe left over from the cold war, over 70 in Germany alone. I think Europe can protect itself. Why we maintain such a large cold war military status is nothing but waste. I'd shut down 100 of them and move them to our border.

What's ruined america is a corporate elite estate. Just 1% of people now hold over 40% of all US wealth, 20% hold 80%, compared to the 60's-80's when 60% of us held 80% of all wealth. Sadly, the GOP led us there under the disguise of free markets, improper regulation and called it capitalism. Corporations no longer work for america in a global economy, they pander to an elite class.

Both the Dems and GOP have spent like mad, trillions, nothing gained and broke....the big question is who's pockets got lined with all that money...a chosen few...it didn't just vanish.

[yubba]

Where we are at right now is the result of increase-ing energy prices, our economy is based on low energy prices, or 30 dollar a barrel of oil, if we don't get a handle on this issue, everything else is a distraction to this luming disaster. WE had close to 40 year to address this issue, so why does NASA want to go to the moon to find water to make fuel when we got plenty here ? And one more thing, the size of government and spending should be rolled back to pre 9/11 spending and size.

[gimpy117]

Our defense spending has the be reigned in. Its totally unwarranted in my opinion. We still spend like the cold war is on.

[tater]

The US debt crisis going forward is entitlements. The rest is noise. The promises made for medicare and SS are impossible (what a surprise that a ponzi-scheme is untenable over a long time frame).

Look at Obama's budget. Cut foreign and military spending to ZERO and it would still be nearly 1 TRILLION in the hole for the year.

To borrow from a previous election cycle, with a twist, "it's the entitlements, stupid."

Defense can certainly be reduced, but the difference between peacetime and wartime (current) spending is in fact not all that great.

[AVGWarhawk]

Last years census in the US showed 310,824,422 people. Everyone submit $30 additional on the taxes each individual is already paying. That will put a sizable dent in it. Rinse and repeat every 6 months. Real in the spending in DC. Close all the Walmarts. Walmart is a gorilla that shuts down any mom and pop operations with in a 20 mile radius of their parking lot. No more China items loaded with lead. Most of the items are junk out of the package and end up in our landfills in droves. Manufacture goods here on US soil. The service industry needs to come back to US soil. No more talking to 'Peggy' at Ice Station Zebra when experiencing a computer issue. In short...close the borders.

[gimpy117]

I can agree with AVGwarhawk here. Anyone who says offshoring was a good idea obviously hasn't lived in MI, or seen flint, or Detroit. It's one of the reasons the middle class was destroyed, and the rich got richer.

[Aramike]

Our defense spending has the be reigned in. Its totally unwarranted in my opinion. We still spend like the cold war is on.Defense spending IS high, and should be examined and reduced if possible ... but only AFTER we look at entitlements first.

What a lot of people do not understand is that defense spending is productive spending. It creates jobs, industry, research, etc. Any reduction puts people out of work but in the private industry and in government service.

It's chic to attack defense like we'll just save extraordinary amounts of money, but one must not forget the revenue we'll lose as well.

Our problem is non-productive spending (ie entitlements).

[AVGWarhawk]

Defense spending IS high, and should be examined and reduced if possible ... but only AFTER we look at entitlements first.

What a lot of people do not understand is that defense spending is productive spending. It creates jobs, industry, research, etc. Any reduction puts people out of work but in the private industry and in government service.

It's chic to attack defense like we'll just save extraordinary amounts of money, but one must not forget the revenue we'll lose as well.

Our problem is non-productive spending (ie entitlements).

Yes, defense industry is just that...an industry. Please clarify entitlements. Specifically what government program falls under entitlements?

[Aramike]

I can agree with AVGwarhawk here. Anyone who says offshoring was a good idea obviously hasn't lived in MI, or seen flint, or Detroit. It's one of the reasons the middle class was destroyed, and the rich got richer.That's what happens when you regulate companies out of the country while attempting to keep normalized trade relations with the rest of the world.

Everytime we raise the minimum wage we give more of a competitive advantage to other nations. On the other hand, we don't want sweatshops. And yet, people are used to cheap Chinese goods and don't want to pay more either.

I would suggest tax breaks for corporations who can efficiently produce goods domestically, but man, tax breaks for those evil corporations?

Liberal economic policies have painted us into a corner. That's not to say that Republicans have been much better. What we need is a CONSERVATIVE economic approach. Conserve industry. Conserve jobs.

While I think that AVG goes too far in any proposal to shut down a private American company, I don't see a problem with hefty tariffs for imported goods and tax breaks for companies that purchase domestic goods for sale. In fact, that would help equalize prices.

Fixing our economic woes involves taking a very xenophobic, America-first approach.

[August]

I can agree with AVGwarhawk here. Anyone who says offshoring was a good idea obviously hasn't lived in MI, or seen flint, or Detroit. It's one of the reasons the middle class was destroyed, and the rich got richer.

Assembly line work is not and should never have been considered a middle class job! You want to know why Detroit failed? It's because they produced a shoddy and overpriced product. Forcing people to buy junk is not going to change that.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I had an opinion but I shot it.

[Aramike]

Yes, defense industry is just that...an industry. Please clarify entitlements. Specifically what government program falls under entitlements?Welfare programs (low income housing, energy assistance, etc.).

Why taxpayers insist upon making sure every welfare recipient has a big screen HDTV and Xbox is beyond me (just go to an urban, inner-city Walmart on the first of the month one time). We need to help only those who NEED it, and we need to regulate how that help is used.

It blows my mind how in the country we regulate industry to the point of strangulation, but we don't bother to audit the money we just give to people because they supposedly "need" it. Seeing someone buy a $100 pair of sneakers with their welfare check is infuriating. The problem is, that's the norm.

Welfare recipients should have to submit reciepts and not be allowed to buy tobacco, liquor, or gamble. They should also be subject to drug testing.

Social Security would also qualify as an entitlement, but because all workers pay into it, they should be entitled.

[AVGWarhawk]

That is were I thought you were heading concerning entitlements. I agree with you as well. Welfare is not a system anymore..it is a career for many. There are some bills on the table concerning welfare and it is about time. The independence cards will be cut from being used at local bars and skin bars. No more ATM withdrawls. The cards are used for food as originally intended. Not booze, smokes and broads. The welfare system needs a overhaul certainly and it will be a daunting task.

[Ducimus]

I would suggest tax breaks for corporations who can efficiently produce goods domestically, but man, tax breaks for those evil corporations?


I'll bet they'd never do anything domestically. Why bother when a chinese sweat shop is all you need? Corporations do NOT have a good side. Nor do they have any sense of patriotism. They do not care about the well being of any country, much less this one. Their global, why should they? All they care about, is making money - that's it. Their concern begins and ends there.

(Obama's speech a month or two back to appeal to their good side (something they don't have) was nothing short of hilarious).

edit:

I have to be honest. Im throughly disillusioned and embittered. There's so many special interests, so much greed, so much politics, so much "me first, screw the country" mentality going on, so much Us vs them, so much division, i have lost all hope on ANYTHING ever being done to fix things.

It will take nothing but our collapse to create the spark needed. I'm tired of waiting for it, i wish it would just happen already, and hopefully cause a bit of a domestic revolution. Only then will things be fixed. Until then, status quo until the country collapses.

[gimpy117]

Assembly line work is not and should never have been considered a middle class job! You want to know why Detroit failed? It's because they produced a shoddy and overpriced product. Forcing people to buy junk is not going to change that.

thats funny...but in 1989..according to fortune magazine, gm posted a profit of 4.86 billion...while laying off 40,000 from my state. So no, The UAW didn't run GM out of business.

[tater]

Entitlements are NOT welfare. "Welfare" (great name, that, it was picked because of "promote the general welfare" to make it look Constitutional) is a "discretionary" spending program. "Entitlements" are "programatic" spending. Medicaid, medicare, and Social Security are the "entitlements."

All three need to be hacked.

[Aramike]

Entitlements are NOT welfare. "Welfare" (great name, that, it was picked because of "promote the general welfare" to make it look Constitutional) is a "discretionary" spending program. "Entitlements" are "programatic" spending. Medicaid, medicare, and Social Security are the "entitlements."
Welfare is an entitement program by definition.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Welfare is an entitement program by definition.

Technically, tater is right. Functionally, you are more correct. The missing link between discretionary spending and entitlement is the quality of the explanation for a need for state assistance. Where free money is involved, people get very creative.

[Rockstar]

IMHO I think a controlled dismantling or devaluation of the U.S. dollar is being attempted in order to make way for a new global currency reform.

[tater]

Welfare is an entitement program by definition.

No, it's not.

The so-called "entitlements" are all—by definition—off the "discretionary" budget. To be an "entitlement" it must be "programatic" spending. By definition.

[August]

thats funny...but in 1989..according to fortune magazine, gm posted a profit of 4.86 billion...while laying off 40,000 from my state. So no, The UAW didn't run GM out of business.

I didn't say anything about the UAW. What about "shoddy and overpriced" makes you automatically think of unions?

[Aramike]

No, it's not.

The so-called "entitlements" are all—by definition—off the "discretionary" budget. To be an "entitlement" it must be "programatic" spending. By definition.So the Congressional Budget Office is wrong then.

From http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=4849&type=0




TWO - THE MAJOR ENTITLEMENTS: WHO GETS THEM AND SHOULD THEY BE MEANS-TESTED?

Cash Social Insurance Programs
Federal Civilian and Military Retirement Programs
Means-Tested Income Support Programs
Government-Sponsored Health Insurance
The Distribution of All Entitlement Benefits
Emphasis mine.

The means, generally, "welfare". And that's just in the table of contents.

[Aramike]

And here's the dictionary definition:

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861689829/entitlement_program.htmlgovernment program helping specific group: a government program that targets a particular section of the population to receive specific social benefits

In the actual budget, I believe welfare programs such as food stamps are referred to as "appropriated entitlements".

[Aramike]

I didn't say anything about the UAW. What about "shoddy and overpriced" makes you automatically think of unions?I did. :know:

[breadcatcher101]

You have to have jobs in the private sector, ones that pay into the system and not take out of it.

Anytime you have a surplus of people (workforce) you are going to have some not working--on welfare.

This trend started back in the '60's with the goverment raiding the SS trust fund, I don't see any short-term solution, especially since the passage of NAFTA and GATT.

[Platapus]

The problem is, that's the norm.



Got a citation for any of this stuff? Frankly it sounds Reaganesqe.

[August]

Got a citation for any of this stuff? Frankly it sounds Reaganesqe.

What stuff? Detroit producing a shoddy overpriced automobile or the UAW bemoaning the loss of the ridiculously high wages they had managed to extort from American car makers? :D

[Platapus]

My comment was in response to Aramike's post

[August]

My comment was in response to Aramike's post



I know! Geez, take a pill! :shifty:

[Castout]

US policy makers should put a sense of urgency into the matter from now on and wake up from their comfort lumbering mood hoping things will sort itself out.

[Aramike]

Got a citation for any of this stuff? Frankly it sounds Reaganesqe.You mean, you want a citation for what I personally observe on any given normal day in an urban shopping area? I think I've been clear in pointing out that this is in my own experience.

However, if you don't believe me, I invite you to check out your local inner-city shopping center on welfare payday. Or ask any employee that works in retail in the inner city what their busiest days are.

This isn't uncommon knowledge. In fact, one would have to either not be exposed to any of these areas whatsoever OR they would have to intentionally bury their head in the sand to not know what routinely happens, on a MONTHLY basis in the inner city.

(Oh, and check out the casinos while you're at it.)

[Armistead]

I'll bet they'd never do anything domestically. Why bother when a chinese sweat shop is all you need? Corporations do NOT have a good side. Nor do they have any sense of patriotism. They do not care about the well being of any country, much less this one. Their global, why should they? All they care about, is making money - that's it. Their concern begins and ends there.

(Obama's speech a month or two back to appeal to their good side (something they don't have) was nothing short of hilarious).

edit:

I have to be honest. Im throughly disillusioned and embittered. There's so many special interests, so much greed, so much politics, so much "me first, screw the country" mentality going on, so much Us vs them, so much division, i have lost all hope on ANYTHING ever being done to fix things.

It will take nothing but our collapse to create the spark needed. I'm tired of waiting for it, i wish it would just happen already, and hopefully cause a bit of a domestic revolution. Only then will things be fixed. Until then, status quo until the country collapses.


Totally agree. The government won't tell the known truth, as it would bring on the coming collapse faster, but they know it's coming. The slight gains in the economy are the rich making that last grab, like the quiet before the storm.

The real issues that caused these problems are getting worse, spending, debt, corporate greed, etc... The elite know what's coming and corporate America is positioning itself for the next downfall. Basically now they're grabbing up as many real assets as possible, using the worthless dollar to do so. When it falls, corporate stock will be worthless, but they will have assets of value, land, energy rights, gold, etc...They'll circle the wagons living high lifestyles as the world economy goes under. They certainly will be in a position to shape future global policy...as they do now in America.

The future is bleak. The future meltdown will totally redefine economics. I highly doubt it will work out better, just pray we as a nation can pull out of it.

[Onkel Neal]

Time to cut spending on everything by 50%, tax imports 80%, and raise taxes on incomes less than $100K by 10% Problem solved.