Indonesia: Angry Muslim crowd attacks Java churches

[Gerald]

More than 1,000 Muslim protesters have stormed a courthouse and burned two churches in central Java, Indonesia.

The attacks in Temanggung happened after a Christian man was sentenced to five years in jail for distributing leaflets deemed insulting to Islam.

Indonesian police said the crowd considered the sentence too lenient and were demanding the death penalty.

The incident came two days after Muslim villagers in western Java killed three members of a minority Islamic sect.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12393075

Note: 8 February 2011 Last updated at 12:21 GMT

[joegrundman]

you know i was just thinking - what we need in this world is more angry muslim crowds. Hooray for the religion of peace:woot:

[Gerald]

you know i was just thinking - what we need in this world is more angry muslim crowds. Hooray for the religion of peace:woot: I understand exactly how you thought, :yep:

[the_tyrant]

Castout might be in trouble....

[Rockstar]

No No No this act is because of government oppression. Remember tolerance and kindness begets tolerance and kindness. Give it more time and keep telling yourself "we'll all be singin' kumbaya any moment now", "we'll all be singin' kumbaya any moment now" Keep those happy thoughts a flowin' :yeah:

[Skybird]

Three days a go, a huge Coptian cathedral in Rafah, Egypt , was stomed by a mob, robbed, people beaten up, too, and in the end it got set ablaze.

If you do some intentional background research, then you will quickly see that this kind of stuff is happening in the Muslim world week in, week out. Our media cover most of it not. 2009 and 2010 had been found by conting incidents and victims to have been especially dedicated highlights in the constant persuction of Christainbs and Jews in the Muslim world.

But in Germany, some person was denied return nto public office service, at a reception or a counter, because when it retruned from holidays it insisted on wearing an all covering burkha. Big scnadal! News messages n every media! Some left politicians spitting venom over it!

That in 2010 more Christians needed to flee from Muslim countries or from violent persecution than ever b efore in the past 50 years, and that more Christioans than ever before in these 50 had been slain by Muslim lynch mobs from Asia over the Middle East to North Africa, got noted only in some small and tiny lines here and there - if it got commented on at all. I heared more professors and Islam experts assuring the camera that Islam is a peaceful relgion and that we should not create artifical obstacles to it by calling Muslim terror as what it is: Muslim terror.

[Weiss Pinguin]

^ the Religion of Peace hard at work :yep:

[AVGWarhawk]

Fun lov'in bunch they are! :yeah:

[Tribesman]

So is this the same 1000 strong mob that burned down the mosque and killed the muslims?

[Rockstar]

Everyone from dictators to religious groups think they do God service. Peace loving christians have had their crusade. Hitler thought he was just finishing up where christians left off and now it's the muslims turn. 'cept I think this one is eventually going world wide.

[Skybird]

Everyone from dictators to religious groups think they do God service. Peace loving christians have had their crusade. Hitler thought he was just finishing up where christians left off and now it's the muslims turn. 'cept I think this one is eventually going world wide.
Isn't it that already by claim, and almost that by deed? I mean it is integral part of the ideologic agenda. Muhammad said participation is mandatory for Muhameddan males. No wonder - he did not need an army of deserters, did he.

[bookworm_020]

This is, unfortunately, a common occurrence in Indonesia. As there is a religious court, which operates independently of the main law courts, religious minorities can be abused by both the mobs and the courts!

It is reported on here in Australia to a degree, but hardly gets a full page to it's self.

[gimpy117]

Everyone from dictators to religious groups think they do God service. Peace loving christians have had their crusade. Hitler thought he was just finishing up where christians left off and now it's the muslims turn. 'cept I think this one is eventually going world wide.

Hitler Just disliked the jews.

When it comes to the crusades, the entire WORLD wasn't a really safe place to be. Now, In a time when most major countries want peace...Islam is wanting war. So i feel it's different.

[Skybird]

This is, unfortunately, a common occurrence in Indonesia.
Not only there, but on all continents. Most action takes place in Africa, last year Nigeria was often in the news, was it, with hundreds killed, the genocide against Christians in North-East Africa not mentioned. Events of suppression, mobbing, discrimination of Jewish and Christian minorities, and the occasional assassination on the street, you see taking place in many countries of Islam, even those that are considered to be "pro-Western", like Turkey or Egypt.

Any how could it be different? discrimination the infidels and making them feel subordinate is demanded in their damn holy book, black on white. They just follow the demand of their precious peaceful tolerant "religion".

Not all "Muslims" claiming to be Muslims agree with doing so. But these Muslims - are in violation of the ideology they claim to represent. The Quran does not know tolerance on the basis of equal status between Islam and other cultures. It speaks of tolerance in the form the master tolerates his submissive and obedient dog. If the dog refuses to obey and be dismissive and gets stubborn when being treated as an inferior, the Quran calls for violence against those resisting Islam.

Pragmatic, isn't it!? It's the freedom and the peace of a slave that Islam is allowing us infidels.

On Hitler and the Jews, Islam is antisemitic from all beginning on. Since ,Muhammad felt he was offended by the Jewish pharisees when they showed him their education was superior to his own, he hated them, and let them feel it. I see this biographic detail of Muhammad's life as the basic root of Islam's antisemitism - like anything in the Quran can only be understood and must be seen in the light of Muhammad's life and his political motivations. That's why "Muhammeddanism" still is the far more precise label for what is referred to as "Islam".

The crusades, since gimpy mentioned them, initially started as a defensive action to retake ground that was lost to the Islamic conquest. That was the original motivation for it. Not before later, the crusades turned from this to more opportunistic wars of the noble to win personal wealth, fame and new land. But without Islamic aggression first, the first crusades would not have taken place. If one calls the crusades war of aggression, one could as well call the reconquista in Spain, the throwing out of Islamic conquerors from Southern Italy and Greece, the defeat of Muslim armies in middle France, and the defense of Vienna, wars of Christian aggression.

[Rockstar]

Isn't it that already by claim, and almost that by deed? I mean it is integral part of the ideologic agenda. Muhammad said participation is mandatory for Muhameddan males. No wonder - he did not need an army of deserters, did he.

Skybird last I looked if things keep going like they are half of all human births on this planet will be to Muslim families by 2055. And they know it. Not to mention a surge in conversions to Islam since 9-11. Yep, I'd wager by the end of the century you're either going to submit or face the caliphs blade


"Islam our religion today, your religion tomorrow"
slogan used by muslims protesting in Europe 1989

[Skybird]

Rockstar,

demography certainly is a weapon, and like it was said that chemical weapons are the poor state's atomic bomb, demography is Islam's atomic bomb. But then again: demography has it's own inner dynamics, with consequences that were caused by it feeding back on it. The age and gender structure of current Muslim states will continue to support the energetic expansion of Islamic societies for another 2 generations, 50-60 years from now on - then said nations will be where Europe and the West are today: overaged societies with all the problematic implications we now feel in the West from that.

Some of the more ambitious Islamic leaders know that and thus push very hard to make hay while the sun is shining - for the next 5-6 decades. After that their societies again will lack the vitality to expand by aggressive movement, and they will meet the age-paralysis in a far more unprepared manner than the West meets the same problem today. Until then, we must hold out and hold our ground, somehow. Which may prove difficult, since we ourselves are currently in the declining phase of our cultural cycle, and facing even greater additional challenges than ever before: the rise of Asia and its economic potence, the shortage of ressources, the inner weakness of our culture due to the decadence eroding our will to defend the values our societies historically have emerged from.

In the thread on Egypt I just have referred to Gunnar Heihnsohn. If you happen to understand German, get one of the books I mentioned there. My argumentation regarding the power of demography mostly is due to Heihnsohn's arguments and statistical data. He is brilliant, and often underestimated.

[joegrundman]

So is this the same 1000 strong mob that burned down the mosque and killed the muslims?

that may have been a separate incident, against Ahmadiya people. You know Ahmadiya, the sect that has been banned in Pakistan from referring to themselves as Muslim, and in Indonesia are referred to as a heretical, or is it deviant, sect?

So perhaps i should have acknowledged that we need more of these angry mainstream muslim mobs

[joegrundman]

Skybird last I looked if things keep going like they are half of all human births on this planet will be to Muslim families by 2055. And they know it. Not to mention a surge in conversions to Islam since 9-11. Yep, I'd wager by the end of the century you're either going to submit or face the caliphs blade


"Islam our religion today, your religion tomorrow"
slogan used by muslims protesting in Europe 1989

i was reading somewhere that most of the demographic increase in muslim societies was due not to more births, but longer lives. in other words, it is not so much the birth rate increasing as the death rate decreasing at the other end. (not so much the effect of declining infant mortality) - so there is reason to believe the muslim population increase will start to slow soon as the population ages.

Conversion, i understand is insignificant as a source of new recruits. European increase is through immigration, global muslim increase is through aging.

[Krauter]

Until then, we must hold out and hold our ground, somehow.


Starting to sound mightyly like a religious war between Islamics and non-Islamics based on that sentence. Half the Muslim and Islamic people I know denounce this so called jihad against the West. Its only these bloody crackpots in power, and their thugs, as well as crackpots on 'this side' that hype up this clash in ideals.

Not meaning to draw parallels are imply anything. But "Holding our ground against the Muslims sounds awefully like an angry, anti-semitic artist who dragged Europe into flames in the 30s and 40s.

Again I don't want to imply anything and using said name is in my opinion cliche'd when talking about this kind of thing.. but again that was my most vivid image when reading that sentence.

[Gerald]

I would like a comment from Castout,:hmmm:

[joea]

@ Skybird, you wrote that the West is facing a challenge from Asia as well as that of Islam-do you think Asia is as threatened by the rise of Islam as you think the West is? I cannot see China or Japan becoming "Islamicised" in any way - and China in particular is NOT restrained by any notions of PC! :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

Skybird last I looked if things keep going like they are half of all human births on this planet will be to Muslim families by 2055
If things keep going like they are going then according to statistics everyone will be a Jedi.



that may have been a separate incident
Yes a different incident in the same place in Indonesia, though if you look at the OP they were attacked again and killed in this incident.

You know Ahmadiya
Like the ones with the really big mosque in Switzerland?
You know the evil muslims that are going to take over the world?



Its only these bloody crackpots in power, and their thugs, as well as crackpots on 'this side' that hype up this clash in ideals.

Spot on:up:

Not meaning to draw parallels are imply anything. But "Holding our ground against the Muslims sounds awefully like an angry, anti-semitic artist who dragged Europe into flames in the 30s and 40s.

You will find again and again that skys lines can be found word for word in "My struggle" but with Jews replaced by Muslims.

[Skybird]

Starting to sound mightyly like a religious war between Islamics and non-Islamics based on that sentence. Half the Muslim and Islamic people I know denounce this so called jihad against the West. Its only these bloody crackpots in power, and their thugs, as well as crackpots on 'this side' that hype up this clash in ideals.


It is the ideology, it is in its genes. Islam is an aggressive, totalitarian and supremacist ideology, with racism included for free. Sorry, but that'S what it is. So if half of your Muslim friends are against that, they are in a way already apostates, and play with their lives, from an Islamic point of view. And that may be the reason why Islamic terrorism often target Islamic people, too (no new phenomeneon, btw, it has gone like that since centuries and centuries). They do so due to corrupt regimes, regimes cooperating with the West, Muslims behaving too Westernised. All this is not what the Islamic ideology allows.

How many of your Muslim friends btw actively help to idfentify and report extremist preachers in their mosques and openly stand up in public demosntration calling for more tolerance and fostering of Christian and foreign cultural communities in Muslim countries? How many of them accept Israel'S right to exist in secure borders and peaceful nieghbourhood without preconditions? ;)

I know that many Muslims in the West claim that they are compoatible with Wetsern values and freedoms. I just insist on pointing out that real Islamic values and Wetsern values are totally unac ceptable. The criterion is not what this or that guy is telling you - the criterion is the Quran and the Hadith. Quran is what defines Islam, not some opportunistic statements here and there.

And yes, it is a religious war. The tools of war have shifted a bit away from military means and towards demograpohy and intimidation and using certain dependencies (oil), but the statement by Huntington that there is a clash of civilisations is not there for no reason. And it is a clash between Asia and Islam and the West and Islam in the main. Claiming total dominance and overcoming all that is not Islamic, is Islam's understanding of "peace". Peace yes: but only under Islam'S green colour. Freedom yes - but only as far as said freedom accepts limits defined by Islamic claims and demands. Choice yes: but only as long as the choice is made for Islamic options. Tolerance yes: but only as long as the to-be-tolerated accvepts to be no equal, but an inferior who is submissive, obedient, can be discriminated in order to make him feel his inferiority that results from not hjaving converted to Islam - this discrmination is mandatory in Islam.

So think a while whether or not your Muslim friends are really that Islamic at all, or wether you really want to believe anything that they tell you about Islam.


i was reading somewhere that most of the demographic increase in muslim societies was due not to more births, but longer lives.
I do not b elieve thjat before I see according numbers that are solid. Women in the Ortient have far higher birth rates than in the West. In the West, women would need to give birth to 2.1 ore 2.3 babies so that the societiy maintains in population level. In Oriental and Asian countries, the birthz rates are much higher, also Muslim people in the West usually have much higher birth rates, and I know that for sure from statist6zical data for Eurpope and Germany. The birth rates can be as high as 7 or 8 babies per woman. The birth rates however tend to fall the higher the education level of the women and the higher the social class and income of the family is, that is why those poarts of Muslim colonies in the West that successfully make it up the social and income ladder sometimes reach birth rates between 2 and 3, or below. However, the population size of Muslim groups in the West is growing, while the population size of native european population in the West is shrinking. Falling birth rates amongst Muslim groups are also "compensated" by more and more Muslim people being moved in from Islamic countries. That these groups for the most refuse to really integrate and form their own separated Islamic and foreign national subcultures and parallel societies, makes things even worse. That'S why you have hotspots of critical problems in almost all Wetsern countries with significant Muslim population shares, especially in Holland, Sweden, England, Denmark, France, and increasingly Germany as well. There are places, areas and cities where the national sovereignity of the state and its authorities, the legal order of the state and the authority of the state'S police and legal system no longer exist, and where the state shies away from confronting them in order to enforce the state'S order and sovereignity, becasue it can no longer be had without immense efforts and conflicts, or is a chanceless fight for the state from the beginning on.

[Skybird]

@ Skybird, you wrote that the West is facing a challenge from Asia as well as that of Islam-do you think Asia is as threatened by the rise of Islam as you think the West is? I cannot see China or Japan becoming "Islamicised" in any way - and China in particular is NOT restrained by any notions of PC! :hmmm:
I know that China on the one hand projects demographic pressure on Russian areas at its borders that the Russians do not really "own" anymore, because their population is shrinking as Europe'S population does and so the lands between Russia and China saw a decline in population, forming a vacuum into which the Chinesae since 10 or 15 years are movi9ng in - on Russian soil!

But I also know that Islam has a strengthening presence in China as well and that it raises challenges to the Chinese like it does in Russia's South, in the former Soviet provinces. So yes, Islam is a growing problem in China, too.

China additionally harbours more than 60 regional ethnic conflicts, that it suprersses in order to maintain its national integrity and prevent a falling apart like there was in the Soviet Union. This is the reason why Chinese do not pay much attention to the Tibetan issue - for them Tibet and the Dalai Lama is just one amongst over 60 other such problems. Many Chinese do not even know what the Dalai Lama is. In the West we do not know that multitude of inner conflicts in China, and so we tend to focus on just the one conflict that we know of: Tibet.

[Tribesman]

It is the ideology, it is in its genes.
See what I mean Krauter.
Its why people with even only one muslim grandparent are still a threat as its in their genes.

[Krauter]

tl;dr.

Can you sum that up so my eyes don't bleed from a text wall before my exam. Otherwise I'll come back from my exam and be behind in this discussion :(

[Rockstar]

Starting to sound mightyly like a religious war between Islamics and non-Islamics based on that sentence. Half the Muslim and Islamic people I know denounce this so called jihad against the West. Its only these bloody crackpots in power, and their thugs, as well as crackpots on 'this side' that hype up this clash in ideals.

even the struggle to convert non-Muslims or to bring back the backslider to the true Islam is part of jihad, and are two of the five jihads I posted once before. Evangelism in Islam is more than just “sharing the good news,” it is all out war. And remember Muhammad’s famous saying that, “War is deception.”

Even the ones who tell you they don't agree with the so called extreme crackpots do see whats going on in the world. Believe me they know full well what going on and how fast it's spreading and eventually hop on the band wagon. They have no choice otherwise they will join the kafir.

Know too they are taught in their religion that whosoever conceals a thing, Allah will honor him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him. That is the doctrine of kithman and practiced in their war to win the world over to Islam. To most of us, this seems completely contrary to reason. I mean if you have something good, then share it. If not and you hide it, then I probably don’t want it anyway.

Taught also is Taqiyya; the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with the faith. To conceal or disguise your beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury.

So while you are having a kumbaya moment with your muslim friends ask them what they think or know about the practice of Kithman and Taqiyya.

[VipertheSniper]

tl;dr.

Can you sum that up so my eyes don't bleed from a text wall before my exam. Otherwise I'll come back from my exam and be behind in this discussion :(


Seriously?? tl;dr. ?? Are you even interested in a serious discussion? It's not like Skybird went off on several tangents, yes he probably could've wrote a shorter piece, but the stuff adressing your comment takes 5 min's tops to read.

[the_tyrant]

tl;dr.

Can you sum that up so my eyes don't bleed from a text wall before my exam. Otherwise I'll come back from my exam and be behind in this discussion :(

Good luck!:salute:

Muslim people in Canada aren't bad, they took the "black, hip" identity
Listening to rap music and wearing hoodies

[Tribesman]

even the struggle to convert non-Muslims or to bring back the backslider to the true Islam is part of jihad
But which is the true version?
It certainly can't be them crazies that are doing the killing.

And remember Muhammad’s famous saying that, “War is deception.”


Wow war is deception.
Damn I never would have thought that, its not like a concept thousands of years before such a thing as muslims is it,
......perhaps he borrowed from bible stories.

[Blood_splat]

Sam Harris:up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCz5W_yRq2Q

[August]

Half the Muslim and Islamic people I know denounce this so called jihad against the West.

Only half? That spells a lot more trouble than you may realize.

[Krauter]

Seriously?? tl;dr. ?? Are you even interested in a serious discussion? It's not like Skybird went off on several tangents, yes he probably could've wrote a shorter piece, but the stuff adressing your comment takes 5 min's tops to read.

Well Mr. High and Mighty, sorry I don't feel like reading text walls when I roll out of bed and prepare for exams... And if I wasn't interested I wouldn't be here, simple isn't it? Just for you I'll go ahead and try and answer these questions :shifty:

@Rockstar: Call it good faith, trust in my peers, 'kumbaya moment' or what ever you will. If a friend tells me that they do not believe in something in their faith, I am inclined to believe them. Much similar to how I was raised Christian, but think Jesus wasn't the son of God. I'm not going to bring my faith into this discussion.

But let me just say, I've had Iranien friends who denounce the things that are going on in their country, and after a few weeks/months/what have you, I find theres something off about them, much the same, I've met people who come from the former USSR, three from Iran, one from Azerbaijan, two from Iraq and besides that some of my family fled from Lebanon in the 80s and 90s. These people denounce the regimes, religious zealots and the like that were in place that forced them to flee, and in turn haven't so much adopted a "Western" way of living, but turned out to still be quite respectable, if not 'cool' people, all while still sticking to some of their cultural customs.

As for 'War is Deception', I understand the points you're talking about. I'm not however going to go question my friends on if they're lying to me because they secretly want to convert me or get rid of me :shifty: thats just nonsense and plays exactly into what I said earlier where this 'conflict' is being blown out of proportion by people on both sides claiming its the next great human conflict.

That's all I've got for now, I have other mental commitments to think about for the next few hours. I'll get back to this when I am able to put my full attention into it.

Edit: @ August; how so?

Sorry keep Editing:

the_tyrant: I don't really believe that they've inherited the "black hipster" icon. I guess it really depends on where you are/what the predominant style in your area is. In my hometown we had 'emo' muslims, Orthodox (ie: turban, burka, etc), here I see muslims that mix orthodox 'styles' with 'western' styles and the like.

Also, on the point that the jihad encompasses converting peoples of other faiths. I am sorry, but though they may consider that a jihad or 'war', I do not. Fighting to convert more and more people is, from what I've seen, the aim of any religion. Look at Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Atheists even... All will try to bend you to their views.

@ Sky; know that the 'tl;dr' comment was in no way meant to be disrespectful.

Krauter

[August]

Edit: @ August; how so?

If half oppose then the other half must support. If your sample is at all representative of Muslims as a whole that means there is a lot of supprt for the jihadis.

[Krauter]

:haha: Very true,

I am not going to recant on my statement, but as a young adult, saying "Half of my friends... this and that" does not mean 50/50 split.

I am not going to pull that statement as what you say has merit, but I still prefer to look at the situation optimistically.

[Rockstar]

@Rockstar: Call it good faith, trust in my peers, 'kumbaya moment' or what ever you will. If a friend tells me that they do not believe in something in their faith, I am inclined to believe them. Much similar to how I was raised Christian, but think Jesus wasn't the son of God. I'm not going to bring my faith into this discussion.


Krauter I understand what you are saying I would be too so inclined.

But it is written in their books of faith like Haddith which teaches a Muslim it is permitted to use exaggerations to cover the truth and occasionally make bold faced lies as a core part of advancing shria law and Islam. He may tell you he disagrees with the particular measures but his goal is the same as the terrorists.

As for Iranians there are a substantial number who will have nothing to do with Islam and the current Islamic Republic government. The bunch I associate with usually refer to themselves as Persians and some even go so far as longing for the days like when Cyrus ruled. He was to them a great king, when he ruled was trade, science, thought, freedoms, unlike they have now under Islam.

[Krauter]

I wouldn't go so far to say their goals are the same as terrorists... But I see your point, even if I'm inclined to disagree :O:

Yes, most of the Iraniens that I meet that have fled call themselves Persians. Still, have had some that call themselves Persians and end up being kind of loony, as well as others who are the nicest people you'll meet.

[Skybird]

Krauter I understand what you are saying I would be too so inclined.

But it is written in their books of faith like Haddith which teaches a Muslim it is permitted to use exaggerations to cover the truth and occasionally make bold faced lies as a core part of advancing shria law and Islam. He may tell you he disagrees with the particular measures but his goal is the same as the terrorists.

As for Iranians there are a substantial number who will have nothing to do with Islam and the current Islamic Republic government. The bunch I associate with usually refer to themselves as Persians and some even go so far as longing for the days like when Cyrus ruled. He was to them a great king, when he ruled was trade, science, thought, freedoms, unlike they have now under Islam.

^ copythis. For mew, Iran was my niciest stay of all Muslim countries I were in. The population is very diverse, and different from the Palestinians and Arabs. There is a strong burgoisie with a strionbg sense for education, and thre influence of Western culture and the colonial time cannot be overseen in the bigger cities. Yes,m there are also many nutty and crazy people, hysterics and fanatics, and the autocracy that laid itself like a layer of poisenous gas over the country. But still, politically the entitity of the state of Iran is our utmost enemy, no doubt, so is Islam. But in no other Muslim mcountry I also met so many relaxed and quite educated people that were anything but fundamentalists.

I use to take a strong position on Iran saince two or three years now, that is true. But I do not like at all the need to do so, and for quite some parts of their population I feel sorry over the prospects of war.

Damn Islam. It just messes up things and turns people crazy. Iran could be a very beautiful country, else.

I also liked the polite manners I often met there.

But for every good and freindly guy there is, a crazy nuthead or a fanatical RG is lurking around the corner. This also is Iran, and it should not be forgotten. Especially the bRG have strengthened their foothold in the civilian economical fields and in the industry in recent years. They turn Iran more and mnore into their very own dictatorship. Nothing seems to work in Iran against the RG, and the Ayatollahs anyway. It reminds me of the SA in Nazi Germany, just much stronger and much more influential.

[Krauter]

Damn Islam. It just messes up things and turns people crazy.

Damn Christianity and Judaism. It messes things up also and turns people crazy.


Abolish religion as a whole then.

[Skybird]

Damn Christianity and Judaism. It messes things up also and turns people crazy.


Abolish religion as a whole then.

Yes indeed - and I often said that. And still - the Christian world, influenced by Greek philosophy as well, climbed much higher on the ladder of cultural acchievements and science and knowledge and human rights, whereas Arabia since Muhamadd's appearance fell behind and stagnated, becoming prey of fatalism and obscure ideologic fanatism, loosing a position of initial scientific and economic superiority in the medieval.

Of the three desert dogmas, Islam is by far the worst. Maybe because it is not much more than just a distorted cheap copy of the two others, where Christianity could be seen as a reformed version of Judaism.

I differ between Chrstianity and the church, though. Church and the Christ's teachings do not go well together. If you do not know it, I myself consider myself as a spiritual atheist.

The one thing I like about Judaism is that they do not actively and aggressively missionise.

[August]

Damn Christianity and Judaism. It messes things up also and turns people crazy.


Abolish religion as a whole then.

How do you abolish religion and still dare to claim we are a free society? Shall we all go out and get Mao suits?

[Krauter]

In my opinion, religion is almost always the root cause of any conflict or tension. However, abolishing religion would only cause social collapse, both in the West and East

[tater]

I'm an (outspoken at times) atheist. Even "anti-theist" depending on mood. I have no love for any religion I know of (I remain agnostic on deism and those religions I am know nothing about since how could I know?).

All that said, I think it's fair to look at what empirical data we have on societies and what they have accomplished and given the world because of—or IN SPITE OF—religion.

The entirety of western civilization came out of a Judeo-Christian religious background. Could it have gone further (or faster) under secularism? Sure, quite possibly. None the lest, even taking the "devil's advocate" position that religion harmed enlightened thought, we got there in spite of Christianity and Judaism. The Islamic world is given loads of credit for not destroying all ancient knowledge during the middle ages, but that was in fact the Islamic world's last valuable contribution to the world. They've give us nothing since (except a number of really excellent carpets I have in my home (since the non-representational patterns actually own something to their religion, otherwise it would be merely cultural)).

Has Christianity informed violence? Absolutely. The Holocaust can draw an unbroken line through Catholic (and later Protestant) history. When there was a good, theological choice that might have mitigated anti-semitism, it was almost invariably not chosen. That said, we are now past that in the West. This is not the same world it was in 1930—unless you are a Muslim. The trouble with Islam is that unlike Christianity, it is not "hijacking" to make it violent.

[Gerald]

[QUOTE=Krauter;1594525]In my opinion, religion is almost always the root cause of any conflict or tension. However, abolishing religion would only cause social collapse, both in the West and East[/QUOTE Much truth behind those words that religion, are behind conflicts around the world

[Skybird]

How do you abolish religion and still dare to claim we are a free society? Shall we all go out and get Mao suits?
Implications like this are often made - if you are not religious, than you are automatically communist/fascist/Maoist. The idea is that since these three ideologies do not agree on theistic ideas, atheism automatically is any of these in return.

But that is wrong. Every German Shepard dog is dog, but not all dogs are German Shepard dogs.

Considering that the greatest crimes and acts of barbarism have been committed in the name of various religions and religious cults, from the Mayas to the medieval witch hunts and religious prosecutions in all parts of the Christian and Islamic and African and Mayan/American etc. world, there is also no argument in saying without theistic religions there cannot be any ethics and moral values. Morality obviously can develop even without present religious beliefs, or beliefs of a theistic nature. They even can develop despite the fact that any given theistic religion may be present. Any Christina/Jewish/Muslim set of moral values, is moral values. But not all moral values that we would characterize as humane by their rule and essence, must be Christian/Jewish/Islamic, or theistic. Buddhism for example is an atheist religion (if one wan ts to call it a religion), but is extremely responsible in the individual ethical behavior of a person, not by believing in deities, but by understanding the link between cause and effect.

Atheism does not automatically mean totalitarianism. Morals do not need religions as a basis.

Totalitarianism can be atheist (f.e. fascism), or religious (Islam). Morals can blossom to real humanism due to the presence of religious teachings, or - if the teachings are inhumane, right in resistance to or despite the presence of said religious teachings.

In the end, the final criterion deciding things: lies right inside the individual person. We call it conscience. That's why raping a woman or beating to death a poor beggar under the bridge always remain to be acts of evil, no matter what any religion may have to say pro or against it.

[DarkFish]

Somebody earlier in this thread worried if Castout was okay. I'm starting to worry as well now, his last activity was 4 days ago:-?
The chances that he's one of the few killed are, well, almost nonexistent but still, maybe it's getting too hot out there and he's got to hide or something?:-?

[August]

Implications like this are often made - if you are not religious, than you are automatically communist/fascist/Maoist.

You misunderstood. I said nothing about being an athiest. I was talking about his idea to abolish religion. Freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of worship, all out the window with any kind of ban like that.

[August]

In my opinion, religion is almost always the root cause of any conflict or tension. However, abolishing religion would only cause social collapse, both in the West and East

Human nature is the root cause of any conflict or tension. Religion might provide a handy excuse but it'd happen in an atheist world too.

[Gerald]

Somebody earlier in this thread worried if Castout was okay. I'm starting to worry as well now, his last activity was 4 days ago:-?
The chances that he's one of the few killed are, well, almost nonexistent but still, maybe it's getting too hot out there and he's got to hide or something?:-? I had an interest in knowing the situation, but no negative vibrations now, he's probably much more with jobs and stuff

[Armistead]

[QUOTE=Krauter;1594525]In my opinion, religion is almost always the root cause of any conflict or tension. However, abolishing religion would only cause social collapse, both in the West and East[/QUOTE Much truth behind those words that religion, are behind conflicts around the world

I agree to a point. If you study early religion, governments couldn't help but use it as a tool to control the masses, even christianity. Doctrines such as hell and torture hardly existed in the christian church until 400AD.
Properly translated you won't find this hell in the bible. Rome needed tools of fear and guilt to control the masses, so pagan doctrines were mixed with christian doctrine.

However, even if you snub out religion, other belief system would seek to fill the void. Even though I'm more agnostic these days, even atheism is a organized belief system, same as socialism, communism, ect. Seems we will always have some type of system, either worshipping God or man in some form.

In the end it's about power and as long as greed exist, someone will think of something.

[DarkFish]

I had an interest in knowing the situation, but no negative vibrations now, he's probably much more with jobs and stuffyes, I think/hope you're right:yep:

[Skybird]

You misunderstood. I said nothing about being an athiest. I was talking about his idea to abolish religion. Freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of worship, all out the window with any kind of ban like that.I was more about the second sentence you wrote, where it reads: Shall we all go out and get Mao suits? ;)

[August]

I was more about the second sentence you wrote, where it reads: Shall we all go out and get Mao suits? ;)

Yep you misunderstood. My reference to Mao had to do with state control over personal beliefs, not the beliefs themselves. Deny God all you want and I would never call you a Maoist, but attempt to control the beliefs of others and Maoist would be one of the more gentle things i'd call you.

[Gerald]

Anyone seen, heard, Castout recently :hmmm:

[Fish]

[Even though I'm more agnostic these days, even atheism is a organized belief system, same as socialism, communism, ect. Seems we will always have some type of system, either worshipping God or man in some form.


I think you are wrong here.


Atheism is not an "Ism":
When people talk about "isms," they are referring to some "distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice" like liberalism, communism, conservatism, or pacifism. Atheism has the suffix "ism," so it belongs in this group, right? Wrong: the suffix "ism" also means a "state, condition, attribute, or quality" like pauperism, astigmatism, heroism, anachronism, or metabolism. Is astigmatism a theory? Is metabolism a doctrine? Is anachronism a practice? Not every word that ends in "ism" is a system of beliefs or an "ism" in the way people usually mean it. Failure to realize this can be behind other errors here.

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitionofatheism/p/AtheismReligion.htm
I am a atheist, but not organized in any way.
I am just not a theist.

[Skybird]

Atheism is not an "ism" in itself. It is the absence of certain isms, namely those referring to theistic content.

It makes no sense to say that a glass that is emptied of the water in it, still is filled with something different if that something is just the same like the empty air around.

Edit:
Ah, I see the link provided by Fish says the same.

[yubba]

Anyone seen, heard, Castout recently :hmmm:
Got a message from him 2/01/11, said he had to go out to get a dvd to copy IL-2 for me hope he didn't get mugged:hmmm:

[DarkFish]

Got a message from him 2/01/11, said he had to go out to get a dvd to copy IL-2 for me hope he didn't get mugged:hmmm:his last activity was on the 6th. The chances he got attacked are almost nonexistent but still... It does worry me a bit:-?

[the_tyrant]

Castout updated his blog on February 12, 2011
hope he's fine:-?

[Gerald]

Got a message from him 2/01/11, said he had to go out to get a dvd to copy IL-2 for me hope he didn't get mugged:hmmm: Yes,we must keep our fingers crossed!