100 years later....sure could use him again.

[Bubblehead1980]

Yesterday was what would have been Ronald Reagan's 100th birthday.Watched a new documentary on HBO tonight, noticed some left wing bias but it was 95% fair which is a lot so was happy with it overall.

Anyway, the old man would roll over in his grave if he saw who was holding the office now.Sure could use him again:salute:

Any favorite Reagan moments? I was a small child when he was still President and only remember seeing him on TV but have read and watched much about him over the years.

I like how he joked with the Doctors as he went into the OR after being shot, asking them if they are Republicans lol Also telling his wife "I forgot to duck" great sense of humor.Also, these two....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRUbwnkEPqc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJhCjMfRndk

[Feuer Frei!]

Ronald Reagan's biggest accomplishment in presidency was to improve the self confidence that America had by strengthening the nation's economy.
When he left office after finishing his term, his approval rating stood at 64 percent.
Two things which for me he will be remembered the most for is:
"Tear down that wall".
Publicly challenging and convincing Gorby to tear down the Berlin Wall.
2 years later, in 1989 the wall came down and down came Communism with it, many rightly believing this was the beginning of the end of the Cold War.

A wonderful tribute to Reagan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8_G-mlKxTY

A bit grainy but you get the picture.

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9244/ronaldreaganaccomplishm.jpg

R.I.P. SIR.

[MaddogK]

I just finished watching it, and the program seemed fair to a good man tho it did take a bit away from the mythical character Pres Reagan became.

I didn't know the entire Iran/Contra affair was his idea- he did what he had to do to save the hostages.

...And kudos to Col. North for taking a big one for the team.
:salute:

Happy birthday Mr. Reagan, we sure miss you.

[Matador.es]

Lol, i never knew him, but he has hunor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN3z3eSVG7A&feature=related

I will search a documentary on the net.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSbe87Y65ls&feature=related :rotfl2:

[Tribesman]

...And kudos to Col. North for taking a big one for the team.

So you like treasonous scum who lie under oath to protect a politician who is breaking the countries laws:doh:

[Platapus]

So you like treasonous scum who lie under oath to protect a politician who is breaking the countries laws:doh:


Don't question or criticize their messiah. :nope:

Just let it go. :yep:

[Tribesman]

Don't question or criticize their messiah.
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

[frau kaleun]

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

:rotfl2:

[Gargamel]

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

Well, you saw what happened to the last naughty messiah...... :rolleyes:

[Takeda Shingen]

Don't question or criticize their messiah. :nope:

Just let it go. :yep:

Yeah, no kidding. Never say anything critical of the godhead.

Reagan did some nice things for the country (like espirit de corps) and some not-so-nice things (like NAFTA, Iran-Contra, and ridiculous deficit spending). As a speaker, I rank him among the all-time great presidents. As an actual politcial leader, he is somewhere middle of the pack. What I have found the most interesting, having been old enough to distinctly remember most of the Reagan years (he was the president through most of my childhood), is the push starting in the mid 90's to whitewash his administration's shortcomings in a concerted effort to transform him from a politician to something of a near religious figure. Very much the Holy Gipper, at least to the Cult of Reagan, who seem to pick and choose what they like from his record.

[Penguin]

Publicly challenging and convincing Gorby to tear down the Berlin Wall.
2 years later, in 1989 the wall came down and down came Communism with it, many rightly believing this was the beginning of the end of the Cold War.


Yes, I am pretty sure, that without his divine intervention the people behind the Iron Curtain would have never gotten the idea to tear down the wall... :rotfl2:

[Blood_splat]

I know Don Regan loved him.

[Feuer Frei!]

Yes, I am pretty sure, that without his divine intervention the people behind the Iron Curtain would have never gotten the idea to tear down the wall... :rotfl2:
What?
Your point, sir?

[TLAM Strike]

Well personally I don't think he was the greatest president as some make him out to be and I don't agree with everything he did, but he certainly was the right man for the job at the right time.

I just wish more members of the R Party emulated him rather than just evoke his name.

[Penguin]

What?
Your point, sir?

I think there were many more things that convinced Gorbachev to tear down the wall, than an ex-actor doing a public speech.
Most of those reasons came from the inside of the Eastern Bloc.

[Sailor Steve]

So you like treasonous scum who lie under oath to protect a politician who is breaking the countries laws:doh:
I never like Reagan all that much, but in this case you have no idea what you're talking about. The "treasonous scum" in this case was the segment of Congress who abused their authority to try to sink someone they already hated, much as the Republican Congress did in the Clinton impeachment. Sure, they had some cause, but their cause was wrong and they paid for it. North like to the team sent to seek his help, but in front of the Congress he told the truth, and they set themselves up so they couldn't do anything about it once they realized their own stupidity.

In this case I lump you in the same box as Bubblehead - the box for the people who are already convinced of their own rightness and are incapable of admitting that anyone who disagrees has any value at all.

In the words of Ben Franklin, "Blame-All and Praise-All are two blockheads."

[Tribesman]

Your point, sir?
It was the east german communications system and ancient technology that was the problem, it took two years for them to hear the gipper telling them to take down the wall, once they got the word which had been lost in the post they jumped up and took down the wall at his request.

It has been suggested that a quicker result would have been achieved if he had climbed a ladder in Berlin and shouted really load over the wall, but there were issues over having to use a stunt double to do the climbing.

[Tribesman]

I never like Reagan all that much, but in this case you have no idea what you're talking about.
Was the operation explicitly against the laws of the United States?
Did it involve aiding enemies of the United States?

[Sailor Steve]

Was the operation explicitly against the laws of the United States?
Did it involve aiding enemies of the United States?
Did the operation happen the way the liberal sources claim it did? Is there any actual proof? Have you seen it?

[Tribesman]

Did the operation happen the way the liberal sources claim it did?
Liberal sources???????
I see you are focusing on congress, it goes way beyond that.

[gimpy117]

Ronald Reagen will never be somebody i will like as a president. He watched over the the dismantlement of my states production centers and allowed them to go all to mexico, for short term profits.

to be honest, I don't have any love for the man. he rang in the age where government panders to big business.

[Tribesman]

He watched over the the dismantlement of my states production centers and allowed them to go all to mexico, for short term profits.


Free market, tear down that fence.:up:

[August]

I think there were many more things that convinced Gorbachev to tear down the wall, than an ex-actor doing a public speech.
Most of those reasons came from the inside of the Eastern Bloc.

Then you're both wrong. Gorbachev did NOT tear down the Berlin wall. He didn't even order it torn down.

[Penguin]

Then you're both wrong. Gorbachev did NOT tear down the Berlin wall. He didn't even order it torn down.

tearing down the wall = short form for allowing the events to happen that led to the fall of the wall, having the political will and power to keep the armed forces, internal & external opposition under control and to influence other Eastern Bloc contries.
Just imagine how easily a Budapest '56 or Prague '68 situation could have happened, when Hungary opened its' borders, if the soviet leader had the will to crush signs of liberty.

[August]

tearing down the wall = short form for allowing the events to happen that led to the fall of the wall, having the political will and power to keep the armed forces, internal & external opposition under control and to influence other Eastern Bloc contries.

Not the same thing in my book.

[Penguin]

Not the same thing in my book.

So what do you understand under "tearing down the wall"? Certainly not only the actual process of wall demolition. I'm sure, Ronnie also didn't mean it literally and didn't want Gorby to take a pickaxe ;)

[Armistead]

Ron and Nancy lived by their astrologer’s advice and decision making was often the result of the daily reading, that should scare the hell out of anyone.

He also believed trees caused more pollution than cars.


But overall he did a good job, just shows it doesn't take much of a brain to do better than congress.

[August]

So what do you understand under "tearing down the wall"? Certainly not only the actual process of wall demolition. I'm sure, Ronnie also didn't mean it literally and didn't want Gorby to take a pickaxe ;)

I guess I should specify then. Neither Gorbachev or Reagan tore down the Berlin wall or caused the wall to be torn down. Neither one gets the credit for that in my book.

[MothBalls]

So you like treasonous scum who lie under oath to protect a politician who is breaking the countries laws:doh:I have no recall of the events related to who you are talking about or when they happened.


President Reagan didn't always know what he knew.
~ Oliver North

[Ducimus]

I just wish more members of the R Party emulated him rather than just evoke his name.

:up:

[Tribesman]

I have no recall of the events related to who you are talking about or when they happened.

:up: And even when you knew what you knew and knew that you knew it you were fairly sure it was still something else.

[AngusJS]

I never like Reagan all that much, but in this case you have no idea what you're talking about. The "treasonous scum" in this case was the segment of Congress who abused their authority to try to sink someone they already hated, much as the Republican Congress did in the Clinton impeachment. Sure, they had some cause, but their cause was wrong and they paid for it. North like to the team sent to seek his help, but in front of the Congress he told the truth, and they set themselves up so they couldn't do anything about it once they realized their own stupidity.

In this case I lump you in the same box as Bubblehead - the box for the people who are already convinced of their own rightness and are incapable of admitting that anyone who disagrees has any value at all.

In the words of Ben Franklin, "Blame-All and Praise-All are two blockheads."Only the greated American heroes lie to Congress, those who are above all law and accountability. :salute:

:doh:

[Tribesman]

Only the greated American heroes lie to Congress, those who are above all law and accountability.
The good thing there with what Steve wrote is that you don't need to go anywhere near the congress for the D "witch-hunt" you don't have to go anywhere near the "liberal" media, you can stick around the one party itself for good on the record sources where they hang the treason up for all to see.
I am sure Steve knows well enough where to find that severe condemnation of the acts as harmful to america, harmful to its allies, illegal , beneficial to its enemies, contrary to law, counter productive for American policies, corrupt........it just goes on and on and they managed that despite the destruction of evidence, the severe restrictions on scope and the limited time fame

[Sailor Steve]

Liberal sources???????
I see you are focusing on congress, it goes way beyond that.
And you just said exactly nothing. I was referring to the biased sources you heard the story from. All the evidence is circumstatial, or there would have been more done. It was a congressional witchhunt.

[August]

And you just said exactly nothing. I was referring to the biased sources you heard the story from. All the evidence is circumstatial, or there would have been more done. It was a congressional witchhunt.

Why are you bothering with him Steve? You know he's just going to keep saying nothing. It's his specialty.

[Sailor Steve]

Only the greated American heroes lie to Congress, those who are above all law and accountability. :salute:

:doh:
Evidence, please, not just rhetoric. As with my Franklin quote, both you and those you oppose you only credit your own version, and like to spout commentary without ever showing hard evidence. Accountability applies to you as well.

[Sailor Steve]

Why are you bothering with him Steve? You know he's just going to keep saying nothing. It's his specialty.
Because Tribesman actually gives valid arguments from time to time. It's true he sometimes doesn't, but unlike Torvald and Angus (and Bubblehead), he does actually discuss things from time to time.

[August]

Because Tribesman actually gives valid arguments from time to time. It's true he sometimes doesn't, but unlike Torvald and Angus (and Bubblehead), he does actually discuss things from time to time.

Well I have yet to see one. Maybe it was disguised by his usual ration of condescension and scorn.

[MothBalls]

Why are you bothering with him Steve? You know he's just going to keep saying nothing. It's his specialty.I always look forward to reading what Steve has to say. There's something to be said about subtlety and he does it so well. I'll take subtlety over vulgarity any day.

[joea]

IIn the words of Ben Franklin, "Blame-All and Praise-All are two blockheads."

I love that! Going to use it myself! Sooooo true isn't it? :haha:

[Tribesman]

Well I have yet to see one
That is because you wouldn't recognise one if it jumped up and down in front of you with a huge sign displaying simple words in big letters while backed by an orcherstra playing the "you missed the point" concerto.:up:

Because Tribesman actually gives valid arguments from time to time.
Forget it, August is just a troll.

And you just said exactly nothing. I was referring to the biased sources you heard the story from.
The source was republican led and republican run, so does that mean you are jumping to assumptions like MH did last week?
You should realise by now that like if you wish to criticise US foriegn policy the best source is the US State Dept. as that way people can't argue without destoying their own claims.
Likewise when the democrat led congress does its own report against a republican policy then its best to go elsewhere.

All the evidence is circumstatial
Rubbish, no one denies that arms went to Iran and no one denies that aid went to the terrorists in central America, it is plain that both were illegal.
So Steve where do you think stuff like this.....as harmful to america, harmful to its allies, illegal , beneficial to its enemies, contrary to law, counter productive for American policies, corrupt........it just goes on and on and they managed that despite the destruction of evidence, the severe restrictions on scope and the limited time fame ......can be found?

[Sailor Steve]

That is because you wouldn't recognise one if it jumped up and down in front of you with a huge sign displaying simple words in big letters while backed by an orcherstra playing the "you missed the point" concerto.:up:
That was pretty funny. Unfortunately not true.

Forget it, August is just a troll.
Tribesman: "August is just a troll."

August: "Tribesman is just a troll."

What if you're both right?

What if you're both wrong?

Name-calling is counter-productive, no matter who does it. And I've done it too.

Rubbish, no one denies that arms went to Iran and no one denies that aid went to the terrorists in central America, it is plain that both were illegal.
So Steve where do you think stuff like this.....as harmful to america, harmful to its allies, illegal , beneficial to its enemies, contrary to law, counter productive for American policies, corrupt........it just goes on and on and they managed that despite the destruction of evidence, the severe restrictions on scope and the limited time fame ......can be found?
So why didn't Reagan go to jail? Because no one could prove that he did anything worthy of trial, let alone conviction.

I don't mind the accusations, as I don't worship anybody. But your arguments to tend to be more than a little one-sided. Like the conservatives, you like to accuse the other side and defend your own, and there is little actual discussion.

Me, I don't like either side, or sides in general.

[August]

What if you're both right?

I'm right, he's not.

[Tribesman]

So why didn't Reagan go to jail? Because no one could prove that he did anything worthy of trial, let alone conviction.

Al Capone only fiddled his taxes.

But your arguments to tend to be more than a little one-sided.
The arguements come from the Republican led Republican majority inquiry commisioned and accepted by the Republican President.
Are you saying my points are too pro-Republican?

Did you notice that the initial response was in criticism of people who were praising him and saying he had done all the bad stuff he was accused of and North was great for taking the blame and covering up/destroying the evidence of what had been done?

You keep coming back to the lack of a trial or conviction, that is irrelevant as all parties agree that the arms deals and aid to terrorists was illegal and that they happened.

[Oberon]

Well, I don't remember much of Reagans time, but I have to agree with TLAM Strike and Tak, he may not have been the greatest politician of all time, or perhaps even the greatest President, but damn could he tell a tale. I'd much rather have Reagan up on the podium doing a speech than Obama, Bush (both) or Clinton, and at the end of the day, as a figurehead, that is a good part of the job. So, I would put Reagan high up the list of good presidents, but I would probably not call him the godlike figure that some people make him out to be, he's just human like the rest of us. :salute:

[Sailor Steve]

You keep coming back to the lack of a trial or conviction, that is irrelevant as all parties agree that the arms deals and aid to terrorists was illegal and that they happened.
So you say. But it is only the Democrats who keep insisting he got away with something illegal. If it's illegal why wasn't something done. They certainly tried, and failed, so "All parties agreed" says exactly nothing.

They proved nothing, or Reagan would have gone down for it. And if they proved nothing, then, according to the law, he is "innocent until proven guilty".

And when I say your arguments are one-sided, I'm not referring solely to this. You never take a neutral stance, but invariably default to the Democrat side.

[Tribesman]

But it is only the Democrats who keep insisting he got away with something illegal.
Too easy.
Look at the opening posts, if North wasn't taking one for the team then he cannot have been protecting the team from the legal consequences of their illegal actions.
So that isn't just non democrats insisting he got away with it the republicans are celebrating him getting away with something illegal

If it's illegal why wasn't something done.
So many reasons, the major one apart from national interests is the issue of immunity and the implications that had on testimony.

They certainly tried, and failed
Nothing new there.
Murderers escape conviction or even prosecution regularly, it doesn't mean they are not murderers, it just means they are not convicted murderers.

You never take a neutral stance, but invariably default to the Democrat side.
That is because in the main US politics only has a right and a further right and on this forum many contentious views put up for discussion come from the far right of the further right, so anything against those views would appear to the left.

[MaddogK]

Too easy.
Look at the opening posts, if North wasn't taking one for the team then he cannot have been protecting the team from the legal consequences of their illegal actions.

You're at a disadvantage basing you're argument on my opinion, perhaps you should watch the film and form your own opinion of the events.

So you like treasonous scum who lie under oath to protect a politician who is breaking the countries laws


<snip>
Did you notice that the initial response was in criticism of people who were praising him and saying he had done all the bad stuff he was accused of and North was great for taking the blame and covering up/destroying the evidence of what had been done?

Critisism is fine, but that comment from post #5 bordered on a personal attack and I don't appreciate it. YOU threw out the first comment on the only comment about Col. North (MY comment), I don't see anyone else defending the actions of a soldier following his commanders orders, but again it's ONLY my opinion that a loyal officer to his commander is to be celebrated.

Your opinion obviously differs.

[Tribesman]

Critisism is fine, but that comment from post #5 bordered on a personal attack and I don't appreciate it.
It was a personal attack, on Oliver North.

I don't see anyone else defending the actions of a soldier following his commanders orders
Look wider, for many North became a hero when he wrapped himself in the flag and lied his ass off.
While you are at it, "following his commanders orders"?
Reagans defence was that he didn't order any of that ciminal stuff.

it's ONLY my opinion that a loyal officer to his commander is to be celebrated.

he is supposed to be loyal to his country.

Your opinion obviously differs.
Obviously, that flag wrapped following orders line went out with Nuremburg.

[Sailor Steve]

Too easy.
Look at the opening posts, if North wasn't taking one for the team then he cannot have been protecting the team from the legal consequences of their illegal actions.
So that isn't just non democrats insisting he got away with it the republicans are celebrating him getting away with something illegal

So many reasons, the major one apart from national interests is the issue of immunity and the implications that had on testimony.

Nothing new there.
Murderers escape conviction or even prosecution regularly, it doesn't mean they are not murderers, it just means they are not convicted murderers.

That is because in the main US politics only has a right and a further right and on this forum many contentious views put up for discussion come from the far right of the further right, so anything against those views would appear to the left.
It's still all talk. You haven't shown any actual evidence. I can claim that anybody has gotten away with any number of things. That doesn't make it so.

[Tribesman]

It's still all talk
Read Tower, its only 200 pages.

[MaddogK]

It was a personal attack, on Oliver North.
<snip>


From Subsim's board rules: acceptable use policy,
We run the forum with as few rules as possible but we aim for a civil tone, so no personal attacks. You may have noticed other Internet forums are filled with aggression, insults, and general immaturity. Check that at the door here, this forum is different. Our members appreciate throughtful discussion and a mature tone. Please adjust accordingly.

Admitting to a personal attack, eh ? I believe the rules of this board apply to non-members as well.

[Tribesman]

Admitting to a personal attack, eh ? I believe the rules of this board apply to non-members as well.
Stalin was a crazy murdering dictator
Oh no I attacked a non member:har::har::har::har::har:

[Sailor Steve]

Admitting to a personal attack, eh ? I believe the rules of this board apply to non-members as well.
Um, no. If that were true then half the members would be banned every time Obama was mentioned, and the other half every time Bush was mentioned.

'Personal Attack' means just that - attacking someone here rather than arguing with them.

[Sailor Steve]

Read Tower, its only 200 pages.
Okay. The Tower Commission Report basically says that Reagan screwed up. I not only accept that, I believe it (I've never liked the man myself, which of course helps).

But Tower doesn't conclude that Reagan had hands-on knowledge, nor that he did anything illegal. And North was convicted on minor charges, but the fact that Congress screwed up that pesky 'Fifth Amendment' thing is their fault, not his.

Again, show actual evidence. Tower proves nothing.

[August]

Game, set and match.

[HunterICX]

Game, set and match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N0200mj30Q

HunterICX

[AVGWarhawk]

Besides the tennis match...Reagan was one of my favorite Presidents. Did he do everything right? No. Was he the most awesome President ever? Not really. He was, however, what the country needed at the time. Plus, his speeches were great to listen to.

[August]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N0200mj30Q

HunterICX

:DL :up:

[Tribesman]

Again, show actual evidence. Tower proves nothing.
It shows that arms sales to Iran were illegal, it shows that aiding central american terrorists was illegal, it shows that they happened.
If they happened and they were illegal then the people involved were criminals.


But Tower doesn't conclude that Reagan had hands-on knowledge
It does conclude that he bears responsiblity, as he either knew or was negligent.
If you are negligent in your responsiblities when it comes to illegality you are deemed a criminal .
So knew or didn't know he is still a criminal as the actions taken were undeniably illegal.

North was convicted on minor charges
Al capone just fiddled his taxes.


Game, set and match.
Not unless steve can prove that all the events which people agree happened didn't happen and prove that the laws covering these crimes which existed didn't exist.

[August]

He was, however, what the country needed at the time.

Having grown up during the 60's and 70's let me say you are 100% right about that. Another Carter type would have pushed this country right over the edge.

[Tribesman]

:DL :up:
:har::har::har::har::har:
Hunter would you like to explain to august that the game set match clip gets followed by Hades losing very very badly the match he thought was won?

[HunterICX]

Yes, he did so in the Disney film....but that isn't the reason I posted it.
It's purely the quote.

HunterICX

[August]

Yes, he did so in the Disney film....but that isn't the reason I posted it.
It's purely the quote.

HunterICX

And game, set and match to HunterICX! :DL

[Tribesman]

It's purely the quote
Which like the character was premature.
Just like August is again.:doh:

Unless of course....... steve can prove that all the events which people agree happened didn't happen and prove that the laws covering these crimes which existed didn't exist.
As unless that happens it is correct to call the actions crimes and the people involved in the commision of those crimes criminals.

[MaddogK]

Okay. The Tower Commission Report basically says that Reagan screwed up. I not only accept that, I believe it (I've never liked the man myself, which of course helps).

But Tower doesn't conclude that Reagan had hands-on knowledge, nor that he did anything illegal. And North was convicted on minor charges, but the fact that Congress screwed up that pesky 'Fifth Amendment' thing is their fault, not his.

Again, show actual evidence. Tower proves nothing.

Thats why I found the film so intriguing, I'm fairly sure it came from S.O.S. Shultz's own mouth that Reagan not only had hands-on knowledge, but was the originator of the plan, as was the plan to divert the congress's attention to North to divert the questions away from what the president and cabinet had done. Col. North's activities were the the one part of the whole scheme that the President had no direct knowledge of. I seem to remember Shultz stating Col. North was in on the plan to implicate himself to divert attention away from the President.