How to stay undetected?

[Siberian]

Being a real novice I struggle with staying undetected - unsuccessfully. They always know excactly where to find me. So I'm pretty much in need of tips on how to stay undetected while approaching a convoy or having a "dogfight" with an enemy escort. Obviously in order to get in touch with it I can't move like a snail unless I'm lucky with their course abling me to intercept it.

Most often I end up in a situation where I and a destroyer (or more) have visual contact, but going under and changing course doesn't seem to do much.

I do obvious things like keeping the periscope down, not using sonar, and keeping low speed (1/3) at most. Anything else?

All hints and tips are appreciated :)

[Krauter]

Depends on a host of things.

Mostly, what Mods are you running.

Also, what time is it? What are the surface conditions?

If escorts are aware of your presence, go as deep as you can and set speed so that your making less then 100RPMs.

It just takes practise.

[Siberian]

Mostly, what Mods are you running.
Also, what time is it? What are the surface conditions?


They are indeed aware of my presence. At the moment I don't use any mods. I suppose we can say daytime with good weather since those supposedly are the hardest conditions. If I can make it here I'll make it anywhere :)

[Platapus]

I like to make some comments on your post.

The term "having a dog fight with an enemy escort" is a bit strange.

Submarines don't normally dog fight with escorts in the same context as fighter aircraft (maneuver, attack, maneuver, attack, rinse and repeat). Escorts are either ignored and avoided (best) or they are attacked once without warning.

Once detected, submarines are at a distinct disadvantage in combat. Actually once detected, we lose pretty much every advantage we have.

Obviously in order to get in touch with it I can't move like a snail unless I'm lucky with their course abling me to intercept it.

Or you shadow the convoy until the situation is good for you to attack. One of the worst things you can do is get "Buck fever". When you first spot a convoy, forget any thoughts of attacking it. Shadow it and get a good plot. Your most powerful weapon is time. Use it wisely. Only attack when it is good for you to attack. It was not uncommon for a submarine to shadow a convoy for many many hours. If you find a convoy during the day, shadow it until nightfall. Once you commit to the attack, the situation will only get worse. So be sure to attack only when the situation is best for you.


Most often I end up in a situation where I and a destroyer (or more) have visual contact, but going under and changing course doesn't seem to do much.

If a destroyer has visual contact with you, you have already messed up the approach and should abort the attack. If you are lucky you can reacquire the convoy and start shadowing it for another approach.

Submarines are snipers. We track our prey, we learn about our prey, and we position ourselves so the prey comes to us.

Find a convoy and keep just out of the convoy's visual range. If it is easy to see them, it is easy for them to see you. Get the convoy's course and speed. Surface outside their visual range and use full speed to get to a good shooting position. This make take hours of game time. Don't use TC at high levels.

As you are doing your end around the convoy, use this time to understand the pattern of the escorts. How are they patrolling the convoy. How much time does it take for them to turn (this is why low tc is best).

By the time you are well ahead of the convoy and getting ready to set up your attack, you should know the following

1. Convoy course
2. Convoy speed
3. Number and general type of ships in the convoy
4. Number of escorts
5. Operational patterns and timings of escorts.

If you don't know all of this, consider not attacking but going back to shadowing. You have all the time in the world. Rushing an attack only benefits the enemy.

Good luck with it. :salute:

[WernherVonTrapp]

Welcome Siberian.:up:
Getting detected is something we all have to put up with from time to time. A few pointers can help but, you'll have to develope and tailor them to suit your needs in any given situation. As previously mentioned, a lot of things (or variables) affect the detection equation. For example, your angle of approach, weather conditions and your approach speed (on the surface and submerged).
Try to approach the target at anywhere from a 45° to 90° angle. Make sure your crew is at battlestations and your boat is rigged for silent running. Silent Running should automatically reduce your speed to an acceptably slow level. Rough seas make it harder for the enemy to detect you but if seas are calm, try going below the thermocline (thermal layer) and approaching from the depths.
http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/thermocline.jpg

Make sure you are at an angle (near any DD) that offers the least target for enemy sonar to bounce off of. If your broadside is facing the front of a destroyer, you're going to be in deep trouble if you don't correct it. Don't get too close too soon. Wait for the lead DD to pass and then continue your approach. I'm sure others will offer their own thoughts and, take your time. Don't get discouraged. This sim has a steep learning curve but, you will get the hang of it. Good Luck.:salute:

[Krauter]

Couldn't have really said it better Platapus.

Submarines are ambush hunters. We don't chase after our targets (unless unescorted and even then..) nor do we go in guns a blazing.

"If it's an even and fair fight, you did something wrong". This is my motto when attacking shipping with a submarine. When you attack, the odds should be so overwhelmingly in your favour that it creates chaos. Chaos is good, it means the escorts aren't organized. An organized escort force cohesively hunting for you is something dangerous, whereas an un cohesive one is just a matter of sidestepping them.

Take your time, unless they're about to make landfall (in which case you shouldn't attack anyways because of aircover..) you have days if not weeks in the pacific to track them and destroy them.

They are indeed aware of my presence. At the moment I don't use any mods. I suppose we can say daytime with good weather since those supposedly are the hardest conditions. If I can make it here I'll make it anywhere

This is a wrong attitude. Yes, being prepared for the worst is good. But you want to be prepared to the point you never get into a bad situation. You should have a checklist that if your attack doesnt meet all of those points such as *night*, *bad weather*, *low number of escorts*, etc, you shouldn't attack.

[Platapus]

"If it's an even and fair fight, you did something wrong". This is my motto when attacking shipping with a submarine. When you attack, the odds should be so overwhelmingly in your favour that it creates chaos. Chaos is good, it means the escorts aren't organized. An organized escort force cohesively hunting for you is something dangerous, whereas an un cohesive one is just a matter of sidestepping them.


Actually, I think you did say it better. :salute:

[Krauter]

:O: Thanks! I forget where I heard that quote.. but it really stuck with me when I played subsims.

[Siberian]

This is all great advice :) One question for Platapus though;
You say to shadow the convoy outside its visual range. I suppose this must be done submerged since if I was surfaced they could also see me? Following this I'll probably need to back away a bit now and then in need to charge the batteries. Is this correct procedure Captain Platapus?

[Krauter]

No way in hell you'll keep up to them submerged.

World War Two submarines are not like their modern day counterparts. They were designed as torpedo boats that could hide underwater to conduct attacks and evade. Stay surfaced and use rader/periodic sonar checks to make sure they're still there. Certain mods also allow stack smoke so you can track them that way also.

The only time you should be submerged is, during the day near airfields; evading attack, or conducting an attack

[Captain J. Borne]

I got goosebumps reading your reply, plat. Those are words of wisdom.

[I'm goin' down]

I suggest you look at the following link in the Skipper's Bag of Tricks sticky:
"SH3 & SH4 "Uber" AI Explained"

AI is artificial intelligence. This article explains some additional theory.

[commandosolo2009]

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b456/archangel501/thermocline.jpg

regarding your chart, if I engage full speed so deeper below the thermocline, would DDs be able to hear me? I'm in early war, Jan 1942, but I guess they would. If I'm a 100 m deep?:06:

[Hylander_1314]

Here's a cool little utility made for SH4 "Bearing to AOB + Sonar Fix.

Read the first post, and follow the link to FF to grab the utility. It really helps to set up a great torpedo attack, since the DDs and DEs just always seem to locate you while running silent, and deep.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=164448&highlight=Bearing+To+AOB+%2B+Sonar+FIX

Really helps with getting in close initially and if you're careful, you can really spring a suprize on them, and be gone like a ghost in the night before they know what hit them.

[I'm goin' down]

nicolas was the inventer of the Easy Aob mod.

[Hylander_1314]

Yep, and it looks like he made a newer version than the one I have, but I use both anyways, so it's not a necessity to have them seperate.

Been using the mod for so long, I would go to war without it.

Saw him mention something about looking into a fuel issue, and am curious if he ever approached it or modded something for it?

[Platapus]

This is all great advice :) One question for Platapus though;
You say to shadow the convoy outside its visual range. I suppose this must be done submerged since if I was surfaced they could also see me? Following this I'll probably need to back away a bit now and then in need to charge the batteries. Is this correct procedure Captain Platapus?

Yes you will shadow them on the surface for just the reasons Krauter wrote. The key is to stay at the point where you can see them but they can't see you.

You being a lot smaller are harder to see. If you can keep the convoy in sight so that the ship's hulls at the horizon you can still keep an eye on them but they can't see you.

If you can see the target's full hull and at a distance where you can identify the ship, you will be seen on the surface. Keep those ships as dots on the horizon. This is also why fast TC will kill you. A convoy zig at high TC may result in you being sunk before the computer snaps you out of TC. Been there done that!

Another trick is to use what was called a "High Periscope Watch". This is where you, on the surface, use the observation periscope fully extended to keep the masts of the convoy in sight. If you can do that, you are pretty much guaranteed not to be spotted but it is a tough thing to do.

Riskier is the "sneak and peek" technique. This is where you shadow out of visual range. At regular intervals you make a hard turn toward the convoy and move into visual range. Get their position and then scoot back out of visual range. Good way to keep from being spotted. It is also a good way to lose your convoy. But if you insist on using high TC, this is your best technique.

Once you get a good solid plot of the convoy speed and course. Mark the course line on the map. Then go to flank speed and get ahead of the convoy far enough for you to turn in to the convoy's path and still have time to submerge and creep to your shooting position.

I can not over emphasize this: If your approach is not perfect, break off and reacquire. We choose when to attack, not the convoy.

I have been sunk many times because I got buck fever :damn::damn:

Good hunting. Unlike our German Kaluens who are told to be more aggressive. US subs need to be more calculating.

Revenge is a dish best served cold. :arrgh!:

[Platapus]

I got goosebumps reading your reply, plat. Those are words of wisdom.

I am flattered. :salute:

[vanjast]

Tactics:
1) The IJN had radar on some ships, so if you get a ship suddenly bearing down on you from nowhere - give you one guess!!

2) Spend some time shadowing a convoy on the horizon, to get it's course and speed. If aircraft show up it means there's a carrier nearby, or you're close to land.

3) Once course and speed is established, warp-factor 3 to an intercept point in front of the convoy. Plan your attack at night.

4) Dive deep on convoy approach, and if you suspect a carrier - this is your first target. It's most likely to be in the middle front. Get on sonar to find this guy.

5) As front escorts pass over, PScope depth for visual. Speed is 1-2knots and escorts always on a bearing of 0 or 180. Look for the carriers and oilers.

:)

[vanjast]

If you..

1) are detected before you're in firing position
2) Fired torps

..full speed into the middle of the convoy at max depth, position yourself under a column of ships (you can work this out with the sonar), and then cut throttle to 1-2knots and turn on course 180 to convoy course.
Before you exit, find the last escorts on sonar and (usually) exit the rear of the convoy at and angle of about 45. This exit direction should be to the west so as to avoid any sunrise lighting.
:)

[WernherVonTrapp]

regarding your chart, if I engage full speed so deeper below the thermocline, would DDs be able to hear me? I'm in early war, Jan 1942, but I guess they would. If I'm a 100 m deep?:06:Travelling at higher speeds produces more sound increasing the possibility that you'll be detected. The Thermocline is not a sound proof barrier.

[Armistead]

I prefer to get detected if waters are calmer, moreso with radar. I will stay out of range and plot until I'm in front, then sit on the surface about 5000 yards off the flank where I plan to shoot from. When they come at me, I'll dive when they're about 7000 yards away and go deep flank speed below the thermal to my attack point. Usually, if you do it right, they will go search where you dived, but you'll be gone. You need to get about 3000 yards from where you dived to stay out of their search circle and keep your butt narrow towards them. Once at my attack point, I'll go silent and come up to scope depth.

This will leave a flank open for your attack. Just make sure you attack that flank, not all escorts come.

[troopie]

Sorry fellers, not trying to sound like an expert, just want to offer some general advice that should be in the manual!

What realism settings do you have? It doesn't hurt to use lower settings when learning.

If you have 'map contact updates' enabled, the targets typical visual coverage is shown when you 'click' on its mark as the outer-most grey circle. The actual range at which it can see you changes depending on conditions.

If you 'click' on the target on your map as soon as you see it you will notice you are outside of that circle (in good conditions). Stay outside of it while surfaced.

Your sub's ability to spot other targets before they spot you also greatly depends on the efficiency of your watch crew; make sure your deck watch are fully manned, not fatigued and have some rank/experience amoung them, they will improve as the game progresses.

Your Hydrophones (passive sonar) generally have greater range than visuals (again affected by crew efficiency) and so can be used to track targets without being seen. This is very easy on the easier settings; just stay out of visual range but on a roughly parallel course and dive every now and then to get an update.

You can use all the info you gather in this way to learn the safest ways to approach targets.

:ping:

[raymond6751]

I have found the enemy has more trouble getting a fix on the sub if it is constantly turning, say 5 degrees to either side. Keep zig zagging but remember that at slow speed you will be going straight for a long while during a switch from side to side.

For those I wait until the dd is right above and speed up to switch rudder. However, you don't want to be going in circles either.

Obviously, if they are dropping DC then you can speed up and do a 90 degree turn.

[joea]

Travelling at higher speeds produces more sound increasing the possibility that you'll be detected. The Thermocline is not a sound proof barrier.

Right!!! :03: The time to go at flank speed is when depth charges have been dropped as that is the moment the nasty DDs (whether Tommy or Jap) can't hear as well due to the explosions - go full throttle for a minute or two, change direction/depth while keeping them on your stern to minimise your profile-then slow to a crawl again. :yep:

[TorpX]

My favorite tactic when playing SHCE was to go deep, and when a DD was starting a DC run, to use a spurt at full or flank speed, and turn to a "normal evasion course", then coast away at low speed, trying to keep my rear to the DD's. The main difficulties being timing the turns right, and making your battery last. It seemed to work pretty well though. :ping:

[Bilge_Rat]

unfortunately, DC explosions have no effect on sound conditions in the SH series. Going to flank speed will just make it easier for the escorts to regain contact.

The best tactic to escape from the escorts is to go as deep as possible, preferably beneath a thermal layer, and as slow as possible. Try to go in a more or less straight line to leave the area, maneuvering to keep your stern pointed at the escorts.

[Armistead]

You go as slow as possible playing TMO, when a DD makes a run you'll find all the charges coming right down on top of you. That's why most hit flank as a escort makes a run, if you're deep enough the charges should fall behind you. If he's pinging, speed doesn't really matter, he has you on sonar. Speed comes to play when you're not being pinged, then best to stay silent.

[TorpX]

unfortunately, DC explosions have no effect on sound conditions in the SH series. Going to flank speed will just make it easier for the escorts to regain contact.

The best tactic to escape from the escorts is to go as deep as possible, preferably beneath a thermal layer, and as slow as possible. Try to go in a more or less straight line to leave the area, maneuvering to keep your stern pointed at the escorts.

I read somewhere the thermal layer is fixed in SH4. Is this true?

[Bilge_Rat]

I read somewhere the thermal layer is fixed in SH4. Is this true?


The thermal layer does work. However, I think most mods (TMO and RFB)play around with its effectiveness so it is a help, but not a cloaking device.

In RFB 2.0, it seems to work pretty well, I have had instances where I was under the layer and I could hear the DDs looking around and not finding me, only to have them start to head towards my direction when I came up to PD.

This may also be of interest:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119272&highlight=enemy+ai

[TorpX]

"fixed" was a poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean to imply that it was "broken", but rather was asking if it was always at the same depth. In SHCE, you had no way of knowing at what depth it was until you got below it.