map contact off - i need more advice

[I'm goin' down]

I have begun the enjoyable endeavor of turning map contacts of and seeing if I can hit anything.

First, here is an example of the conceptual problems I am having:
Target course: 200 degrees
My course: 160 degrees
I assume I am going to be shooting at the target's port side, as I have not crossed the target's course (i.e. bearing in the scope is 280 degrees). If not correct, please advise.
What is the correct course to intercept at an Aob of 90 degrees? How do you calculate it.

Second, and this one has me stumped.
Same as above, but my boat has crossed the target's course, and the periscope view is 230 degrees. I do not want to turn the boat around, so I put it in reverse. What is the correct course of my boat for an Aob of 90 shooting at the target's starboard side, and where do I point the boat to get the correct Aob while in reverse? Please explain if you are able.

As gutted commented in another post, contacts off make the game interesting. You do not know if you have a an accurate firing angle until you hit the targets, as map contacts are deactivated. (I finally hit a tanker this afternoon, and surfaced to finish with my trusty deck gun. Unfortunately a jab dd appeared out of nowhere so I had to break off the attack. I hit with 1 out of 4 aft torpedoes. The dd prevented me from finishing the job. The good news is the 3 missed shots were close.)

[Platapus]

I think we need the speeds in order to calculate intercept course.

Have you converted everything into true bearing? I am assuming your courses are true. It looks like your true bearing to the ship is 88 degrees T

Does that sound right to you? If so, I don't think you will be shooting at the port side. :nope:

If course I could be messed up. I am still learning no-contacts myself so I am very interested in following this.

[razark]

First, here is an example of the conceptual problems I am having:
Target course: 200 degrees
My course: 160 degrees
I assume I am going to be shooting at the target's port side, as I have not crossed the target's course (i.e. bearing in the scope is 280 degrees). If not correct, please advise.
What is the correct course to intercept at an Aob of 90 degrees? How do you calculate it.
You will be shooting into the starboard side of the target, if I read the problem correctly. He's heading SSW, you're heading SSE, and have him on a bearing of 280, so you're looking at his starboard side. If you cross his path, you would be shooting at his port side.

A 90 degree AoB would have you on a course of 110 degrees. 290 - 90 = 110. Or 290, if you want to shoot with the aft tubes (200 + 90 = 290)

Second, and this one has me stumped.
Same as above, but my boat has crossed the target's course, and the periscope view is 230 degrees. I do not want to turn the boat around, so I put it in reverse. What is the correct course of my boat for an Aob of 90 shooting at the target's starboard side, and where do I point the boat to get the correct Aob while in reverse? Please explain if you are able.
If you want to shoot aft tubes at him after crossing his path, you need to point the boat on a course of 110 degrees.

As gutted commented in another post, contacts off make the game interesting. You do not know if you have a an accurate firing angle until you hit the targets, as map contacts are deactivated. (I finally hit a tanker this afternoon, and surfaced to finish with my trusty deck gun. Unfortunately a jab dd appeared out of nowhere so I had to break off the attack. I hit with 1 out of 4 aft torpedoes. The dd prevented me from finishing the job. The good news is the 3 missed shots were close.)
Map contacts off makes for a much more interesting game. My advice is to make use of radar, especially the radar/TDC mod. Plot early, plot often, refine your estimates constantly, and use the TDC. I'll start with an initial fix, mark another at 3 minutes, check course and speed, plot another at 6 minutes, refine course and speed, and another fix at 10 minutes, refine the estimates. At this point, you should have a decent idea of where he's going and how fast, so you can plot a general intercept.

After the 10 minute fix, I'll plot every 5 minutes. I still haven't started plotting on the move, so I'll get range and bearing, write it down, switch to the map, pause the game, and draw it out. It's taking me about an hour to two hours to close and attack a target, in game. In reality, I can take a day or two, depending on what's going on in real life.

While you're plotting, watch for the target to zig. I turn on the TDC to track the target pretty early (usually around 10 or 20 minutes after I start plotting), and if he starts to deviate from the TDC prediction, you can bet it's a zig. I'll get a couple of 3 minute plots on his new course/speed, change my course to the new intercept, and then go back to plotting every 5 minutes. If he's recently taken a zig, he probably won't take another very soon, so sometimes I'll let him got for 10 minutes between fixes if he's matching with the TDC pretty well.

[I'm goin' down]

I think we need the speeds in order to calculate intercept course.

Have you converted everything into true bearing? I am assuming your courses are true. It looks like your true bearing to the ship is 88 degrees T

Does that sound right to you? If so, I don't think you will be shooting at the port side. :nope:

If course I could be messed up. I am still learning no-contacts myself so I am very interested in following this.

You messed up. Courses are true course. See my reply to razark below.

[I'm goin' down]

You will be shooting into the starboard side of the target, if I read the problem correctly. He's heading SSW, you're heading SSE, and have him on a bearing of 280, so you're looking at his starboard side. If you cross his path, you would be shooting at his port side.

A 90 degree AoB would have you on a course of 110 degrees. 290 - 90 = 110. Or 290, if you want to shoot with the aft tubes (200 + 90 = 290)


If you want to shoot aft tubes at him after crossing his path, you need to point the boat on a course of 110 degrees.


Map contacts off makes for a much more interesting game. My advice is to make use of radar, especially the radar/TDC mod. Plot early, plot often, refine your estimates constantly, and use the TDC. I'll start with an initial fix, mark another at 3 minutes, check course and speed, plot another at 6 minutes, refine course and speed, and another fix at 10 minutes, refine the estimates. At this point, you should have a decent idea of where he's going and how fast, so you can plot a general intercept.

After the 10 minute fix, I'll plot every 5 minutes. I still haven't started plotting on the move, so I'll get range and bearing, write it down, switch to the map, pause the game, and draw it out. It's taking me about an hour to two hours to close and attack a target, in game. In reality, I can take a day or two, depending on what's going on in real life.

While you're plotting, watch for the target to zig. I turn on the TDC to track the target pretty early (usually around 10 or 20 minutes after I start plotting), and if he starts to deviate from the TDC prediction, you can bet it's a zig. I'll get a couple of 3 minute plots on his new course/speed, change my course to the new intercept, and then go back to plotting every 5 minutes. If he's recently taken a zig, he probably won't take another very soon, so sometimes I'll let him got for 10 minutes between fixes if he's matching with the TDC pretty well.

Razark, you are 100 percent right to my way of thinking. I read my course from the front of the map compass rather than the back. Target at 200 degrees is heading SSW. My boat at 160 degrees is heading SSE. Until I cross the target's course, I am heading to his starboard side, just as you said.

As for aft tubes, once I get the course at 110 degrees, I guess I put my boat in reverse to close on the target (assuming of course that I have crossed its course before I do this.)

The radar mod drive me nuts. Too many steps. I like gutted's idea of eyeballing the Aob and using the speed button to compute speed. I have to remember to only click the speed button once, however. When I double click, I find the target doing a fantastic speed, like 80 kts. However, the excellent airplane contacts mod by a guy called razark--that I could use.:D

[razark]

Here is my understanding of your setup:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=442&pictureid=3632
In the center is a North/South reference line. You are west of the target, heading 160. The target is on bearing 280 relative (80 degrees to port), and is heading 200 degrees. Your course intercepts at a 40 degree angle. 180 - 40 - 80 = 60 (180 minus intercept angle minus bearing to target gives you an AoB of 60 degrees). By looking at the setup, AoB is 60 starboard.

Lower half:
The desired intercept is 90 degrees, which puts your course at 110, if you're shooting forward tubes or aft tubes. Which tubes depends on which side of his course you are on. In the pic, it's be forward tubes.

[Diopos]

Razark, you are 100 percent right to my way of thinking. I read my course from the front of the map compass rather than the back. Target at 200 degrees is heading SSW. My boat at 160 degrees is heading SSE. Until I cross the target's course, I am heading to his port side, just as you said.
...


Nope, you are at his starboard (right) side, as Razark said:

You will be shooting into the starboard side of the target, if I read the problem correctly.




EDIT: @Razark: You are too damn fast! :DL


.

[razark]

As for aft tubes, once I get the course at 110 degrees, I guess I put my boat in reverse to close on the target (assuming of course that I have crossed its course before I do this.)
Frankly, I can't remember ever putting the boat in reverse, except to slow down. I will cross the enemy course, and then slow down and wait for him to get in a good position. It's a very special kind of lazy, I guess

The radar mod drive me nuts. Too many steps. I like gutted's idea of eyeballing the Aob and using the speed button to compute speed.
The radar mod took a while to get used to. Once I started using it, I got used to it, until I could do it in my sleep (according to my wife, I have...) To get an accurate enough solution, I need to draw it out early, and to do it accurately at long range, the precision mode from that mod is important. I have done some quick plotting when targets slip in past the radar, but I always feel rushed and never really happy with the solution until the torpedoes hit (or miss). The 3d TDC is also a great tool once you learn it. Bearing and range predictions make checking a solution much easier.

The speed button can be a pain to use. It really depends on how accurately you enter bearing and range, and that can be a really itchy situation. I use it as a sanity check on my plotted calculations.

However, the excellent airplane contacts mod by a guy called razark--that I could use.:D
Damn airplane contacts drove me nuts before I made that thing.

[I'm goin' down]

You will be shooting into the starboard side of the target, if I read the problem correctly. He's heading SSW, you're heading SSE, and have him on a bearing of 280, so you're looking at his starboard side. If you cross his path, you would be shooting at his port side.

A 90 degree AoB would have you on a course of 110 degrees. 290 - 90 = 110. Or 290, if you want to shoot with the aft tubes (200 + 90 = 290)


If you want to shoot aft tubes at him after crossing his path, you need to point the boat on a course of 110 degrees.


Map contacts off makes for a much more interesting game. My advice is to make use of radar, especially the radar/TDC mod. Plot early, plot often, refine your estimates constantly, and use the TDC. I'll start with an initial fix, mark another at 3 minutes, check course and speed, plot another at 6 minutes, refine course and speed, and another fix at 10 minutes, refine the estimates. At this point, you should have a decent idea of where he's going and how fast, so you can plot a general intercept.

After the 10 minute fix, I'll plot every 5 minutes. I still haven't started plotting on the move, so I'll get range and bearing, write it down, switch to the map, pause the game, and draw it out. It's taking me about an hour to two hours to close and attack a target, in game. In reality, I can take a day or two, depending on what's going on in real life.

While you're plotting, watch for the target to zig. I turn on the TDC to track the target pretty early (usually around 10 or 20 minutes after I start plotting), and if he starts to deviate from the TDC prediction, you can bet it's a zig. I'll get a couple of 3 minute plots on his new course/speed, change my course to the new intercept, and then go back to plotting every 5 minutes. If he's recently taken a zig, he probably won't take another very soon, so sometimes I'll let him got for 10 minutes between fixes if he's matching with the TDC pretty well.

Nope, you are at his starboard (right) side, as Razark said:

.

Dioppos, our posts crossed in the mail. Before you posted yours, I correctd my post, as you can see above. Good catch though.:salute:

[I'm goin' down]

I got it. Now, in the words of Curly of the Three Stooges fame, I am going to Tunis and have a Tunis fish sandwich. Excellent explanations!!!

[I'm goin' down]

How did you get 110 degrees? I see it, but am not sure how you got there?

[razark]

How did you get 110 degrees? I see it, but am not sure how you got there?
I usually just draw it on the map with the protractor and read it off of there.

Math-wise, it's simply a matter of adding or subtracting 90 degrees from his course. Take his course, and add 90 degrees. (200 + 90 = 290) That will give you one answer. (If the answer is more than 360, subtract 360. ex: enemy course 315 + 90 = 405. 405 - 360 = 45.) So, if you are on his port side, add 90. If you are on his starboard side, subtract 90. (200 - 90 = 110) There's your other answer. (If the answer is less than 0, add 360. ex: enemy course 45 - 90 = -45. -45 + 360 = 315.)

(I hope I explained that in a correct and useful way. I am not, nor will I ever be, a teacher. :D)

[Diopos]

EActually, in this case, the 110° Own Ship course would constitute a 90° intercept angle situation (where Own Ship and Target courses meet at right angles). It would put you in position for a D.O'Kane quicky!!!
{110=200 (<---target course)-90}


.

Edit: Damn Razark! You'er still too fast!

[razark]

Edit: Damn Razark! You'er still too fast!
Should I have stopped to draw a picture again? :arrgh!:

[I'm goin' down]

I GOT IT

[I'm goin' down]

Thanks for your help. Your posts were all concise and easy to understand.

Switching subjects: Razark-your air contacts mod apparently conflicts with EAX soundsim w/Webster's mauever mod but not EAX soundsim mod, SH4 standard map icons mod, and the 3,000 meter bearing tool. It also knocked out the submarine marker. Do you have more than one version?. First time I loaded it, it over rode RSRDC because the campaign menu only listed the TMO 2.0 campaigns (i.e. 1941, '42, '43, etc.) I changed the order of activation, and left out the SH4 standard map icons mod and used the EAX soundsim mod. It may not be a big problem. I can live without the submarine icon, but I forgot to look and see if RSRDC has been recovered. If it is still overriden by the air contacts mod, that may be a deal killer.

[razark]

Switching subjects: Razark-your air contacts mod apparently conflicts with EAX soundsim w/Webster's mauever mod but not EAX soundsim mod, SH4 standard map icons mod, and the 3,000 meter bearing tool. It also knocked out the submarine marker.
EAX soundsim: There's no real conflict. EAX modifies airplane sounds. That mod adds folders for some airplanes which may not be in your base install. The air contacts mod also adds those folders, and JSGME will warn you that those folders have already been created. The files that EAX and air contacts modify within those folders are completely different.

Standard map icons: not familiar with this mod.

Bearing tool: Looks like that modifies the map.cfg file. I'm not sure what changes were made to it, so I can't exactly say what's going on there. I'll take a look at it.

Submarine marker: The problem was that you are a submarine. If I made it so you showed up on the map, you would see other subs in the game. Because you can hold Ctrl and click the map to center it on your boat, it's easy to work around.

Do you have more than one version?.
There's only the one version.

First time I loaded it, it over rode RSRDC because the campaign menu only listed the TMO 2.0 campaigns (i.e. 1941, '42, '43, etc.) I changed the order of activation, and left out the SH4 standard map icons mod and used the EAX soundsim mod. It may not be a big problem. I can live without the submarine icon, but I forgot to look and see if RSRDC has been recovered. If it is still overriden by the air contacts mod, that may be a deal killer.
That should not be happening. I can't think of any reason it would.

[I'm goin' down]

Captain razark, you are all business! My kind of captain. We can do business. Your work at this site and in this thread is admirable.:salute:

In your honor, I present you with this link, re the legendary woman surfer of Hawaii, Rell Sunn menehune, who died of cancer at age 47. A surfing contest for kids is held every year in her honor. The video is the key. The kids are having a blast!!! And the song, On the Radio is a classic. Kick back and relax for five minutes on IGD. Am reloading mods in 2 minutes. (Maybe I will reload Nisgeis 3D TDC mod, too.)

http://www.rellsunn.com/rell_sunn/menehune.htm#vid

[razark]

Bearing tool: Looks like that modifies the map.cfg file. I'm not sure what changes were made to it, so I can't exactly say what's going on there. I'll take a look at it.
This should even out the problem with the 3000 Yard Bearing Tool.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/downloads.php?do=file&id=2986

Simply replaces the maps.cfg with an updated one.

I've been meaning to try the bearing tool out. Finally got around to it. I like it.

[I'm goin' down]

Standard map icons: not familiar with this mod.

The standard map icons mod restores planes and ship silouette icons to their origianal shapes and colors (i.e. Japanese aircraft are represented by triangles and are red). I remembered this after I posted my above comments. Since map contacts are disabled in the discussion in this thread, this mod is not needed or is overridden by the game settings or other mods.

If one is playing TMO or RFB, for example, with map contacts enabled, this is a useful mod as it preserves the blue and red color of the various ships and planes, whereas EZ Plot 1.0, a similar mod, does not. I figure that when an plane or vessel is spotted, the spotters know pretty quickly wheter it is friendly or not. The standard map icons mod are helpful in the respect.