Map contacts off

[I'm goin' down]

I have been taking a crack at the ATO forum and discovered (but not mastered) the Kriegsmarine Interface U Boat Mod by Karamozov (spell?). That got me thinking. Let's turn off map contacts on SH4 American Subs and see what happens.

In SH4, can we measure speed via a periscope view with map contacts off? We do not have the lengths of the ships, and RR claims we not know most the various ships' lengths. (I would have to relearn the method.)

We can calculate range with the stadimeter.

Other than estimating, how does one calculate course with map contacts off? With the Easy Aob, once we know the course, we are on our way.

That is why I haven't played with map contacts off. CapnScurvy's tutorial is tough to follow and there must be something better. Nisgeis 3D TDC slows the game down plus I often make a mistake following the tutorial, so I am looking for another way.

Where is niclolas of Easy Aob fame when you need him? (rhetorical question.)

[timmyg00]

i swear by Gutted's Solution Solver... I'm still using the stock stadimeter to get range, but the Solution Solver gets me speed, helps with AoB... And i have Razark's mod that hides ships on the map but shows SD contacts. I plots me own! As soon as i can get an SJ on my ship, i'll be rocking.

TG

[I'm goin' down]

two issues

1. my computer takes to long to close the game and open the Solution Solver.

2. Even if it did, with map contacts deactivated how are you determining course. By comparing the periscope view from your sub with the view in the Solution Solver?

This may be a good way to solve the questions I posed, but perhaps there is a way to do it without using gutted's classic stand alone program?:salute:

[TorpX]

@ IGD:

I don't like using any other programs with SH4 either. I've plotted on the in-game nav chart and on graph paper. Both will work; it's really a question of personal preference.

The quality of your plot will largely be dependant on range estimation, and the timing of your observations (bearing is self evident). After you have plotted serveral observations, course will be easily seen. One can estimate course from a single observation of Aob, but eyeballing Aob is tricky. I prefer to plot a good number of points, at intervals of at least 3 min. and rely on the plot, instead of trying to judge Aob.

[Armistead]

Some of the convoys and TF it's hard to get a good look even at range with binocs. Really need to see the capital ships to get course and when they have radar TMO's dd's make it hard to get in close enough to see the capital ships. As many steps as it is, if I play with contacts off, I use the radar mod, then I'm able to plot myself far ahead right in front fairly close. When I can take accurate stads, I can then get the course and fine tune it, but usually close enough anyway.

I now play mostly with cams off, contacts on, just too time consuming with both off. I had hoped someone would take on the request and do a sonar lines only mod, that would be a fair balance in my book.

[I'm goin' down]

I reviewed the tutorial for the Hydrophone Tracker stand alone program. It is "Calculating a ship’s course, speed, and position using data from the hydrophone,Tutorial" authored by jerm138. One does not need to use the stand alone program to calculate the target's course or its position on this course, as the tutorial explains how to triangulate the target's course and its position on the course using the Attack Map tools. He explains the concepts simply and concisely, and then shows how to accomplish the task with screen shots.

Once the target's course and its position on the course is determined, using the Easy Aob mod, you can input the target's course and manually input range from the Nav Map on the stadimeter at turn on the PK. Since the manuial input of range is an estimate, alternatively I think you can turn on the PK, go to the hydrophone station and send hydrophone readings to the TDC to confirm range. You can then use the Stadimeter to fix range and aspect ratio. This sounds like it will work wih map contacts off, but if any of you see problems, feel free to point them out. Jerm138' tutorial is not difficult to understand, and he does a great job explaining the concepts. In fact, it has elements of a masterpiece.

[gutted]

All i use is a custom made "physical" AOB wheel.

I use it to help determine the targets AOB and course by eye, and to help position myself on an attack course. I then use the provided speed tools in-game to get the speed (.ie 2 stadimeter readings along with the compute speed button). As long as the reported course and the course i have worked out on my AOB wheel are close.. i know the speed it gave me is pretty accurate. If it's off, i try to figure out which is wrong.. the wheel or the predicted course the game gave me.

It's actually that simple. I dont plot a single thing on the map anymore. I used to look for all sorts of ways to get precise information and insanely accurate shots such as precompute speed charts, external tools & special tricks such as fast 90 etc. etc. But in the process of working all this out, i came to be completely one with the TDC. I realized that i didn't need to have .001 accuracy, and that half the fun was the anticipation of whether your torpedos would hit or not (due to your estimations). Using the provided TDC tools is more than enough accuracy than you will ever need.

1. Send the target bearing.
2. Match the AOB dial orientation in-game to that of the target ship. Doesn't have to be completely exact, and you dont even need to look at the actual AOB.
3. Look over at the top dial on the left hand side of the screen to see what the targets course is.
3. Take a stadimeter reading.
4. wait some time
5. take another stadimeter reading
6. hit the compute speed button.
7. match the reported heading with the heading you got earlier.
8. if its very close you can now accurately determine what the targets course and speed is. (goto 10)
9. if its off go back to 1
10. Turn on the PK
11. Go back to 1 and double check everything.
12. Fire when ready.

not that difficult.


note:
In the american sub, you dont even need a physical AOB wheel.. as you have one in the TDC already. Just insert what you think the AOB is, and look at the targets course on the left side dials. I prefer an actual wheel in my hands though. Easier to read, and can help you with a few other tasks.


1. my computer takes to long to close the game and open the Solution Solver.This is likely resulting from your desktop resolution and game resolution being different. Make sure they are the same, and you'll see the ALT-TAB speeds increase dramatically (mine is instant). If the video driver has to switch modes, alot of unnecessary work has to be done.. and textures may need to be swapped in and out of video memory.

[joegrundman]

you shouldn't be taking rockin robbins' opinion on the subject of ship's lengths at all seriously.

Map contact updates off is the only way i ever play, and it works fine in sh4. You can do all tracking and targetting via the PK, which works very well without having to plot.

you can use radar for plotting if you have it, stadimeter if you don't. Nisgeis radar mod makes it easier to plot.

But honestly there are lots of ways of getting your data without using map contacts on.

For me map contacts on eliminates the game. I can hit any target at any range every time.

[Armistead]

The issue for me isn't convoys, it's fast well escorted TF in RSRD. It's very difficult to get close to use a stad, so I have to have the radar mod. Not much of a problem unless they're going as fast as I.

[I'm goin' down]

What is Aob? Just kidding !!

Terrific analysis and explanation. Almost as good as your Solution Solver program, copy of which sits in hallowed space on my desktop computer screen.

I will check on my screen settings and see if that is the problem. I downloaded a freeware program to maximize my ram.

[I'm goin' down]

you shouldn't be taking rockin robbins' opinion on the subject of ship's lengths at all seriously.

Map contact updates off is the only way i ever play....

Yep, we all know he is an idiot.:D (Last I heard he wsa chasing an American TF at Leyete Gulf trying for his second Essex.) But so am I. Do I believe him or you? Does it make a difference?

[By the way, I have watched the Karamazov videos (the original OLC GUI video tutoiral and the Video Supplement tutorial for OLC Gold) and read the KIUB USER Guide for ATO. Tough stuff, but I sank a moored target at the sub school. I have to keep practicing until I get the technique down, and I see the advantage of a 90 degree Aob attack until I become competent with the AoBF for the more complex manual targeting attacks. You have got me started on the right track, and I appreciate the help.]

[vanjast]

Basic Trigonometry is very usefull.

With a bit of practise you will get visual AOB down to +-5Ds (it's not that difficult)
You 'want' to attack at 90Ds so adjust course to AOB+Scope bearing = 90.

Once on course centre scope on target, note your speed and scope bearing.
Adjust your speed so that your target stays on the scope bearing.
From here target speed is just a ratio of your speed and scope bearing.... dam simple
:)

[timmyg00]

two issues

1. my computer takes to long to close the game and open the Solution Solver.

2. Even if it did, with map contacts deactivated how are you determining course. By comparing the periscope view from your sub with the view in the Solution Solver?

This may be a good way to solve the questions I posed, but perhaps there is a way to do it without using gutted's classic stand alone program?:salute:

#1 I play windowed, so i can switch without alt-tabbing
#2 in part, yes... in part, just eyeballing AOB. As the target gets closer, those eyeball observations become more accurate. Doesn't always work though... sometimes the eyeball can fool ya if you don't have an accurate classification.

TG

[TorpX]

For me map contacts on eliminates the game. I can hit any target at any range every time.


I feel the same way. I don't really understand the need for all the 'no-plot' methods. A good plot not only provides data for your firing solution, but also the highest level of situational awareness. I know there is a role for 'rough and ready' techniques, but they can never be a replacement for plotting, IMO.

[I'm goin' down]

I went with map contacts and followed gutted's regimen discussed above. My four shots missed, but not by too much. I was trying to get a 90 degree angle to the target, which was on a coure of 189 degrees. I shot at it from the port side and set my course at 99 degrees, but my shots missed aft of the target by a few boat lengths. I was satisfied that I can master this with a little more work.

What is the formula for getting a 90 degree angle? And is it different if the target is on a course of less that 180 degrees? (e.g. target on a course of 355 degrees. A 90 degree angle from port is 265 degrees and from starboard it is 85 degrees) The the fact that one is shoting from the port side or starboard side makes a difference. I think I have seen this posted before, but I am not sure where.

[TorpX]

In your example, you got it right. If the target course is X, your course would be X+90 coming from starboard, or X-90 coming coming from port. If the X+- values are < 360 add 360, if >360 subtract 360.

What I meant to say is: If values are < 0, add 360, and if > 360, subtract 360. Sorry for the confusion.

[I'm goin' down]

add or subtract 360 degrees? That does not seem correct, because if you added 360 to 300 degrees, you end up with 300 degrees. The same result if you subtact 360 degrees (300 degrees - 360 degrees = 300 degrees.)

[Nisgeis]

Torpx means that if, after adding or subtracting 90, if your result is greater than 360, then subtract 360, but if the result is less than zero (instead of 360 as stated), then add 360.

Course = 300 from port, 300 + 90 = 390. Result is greater than 360, so subtract 360 to give steering course of 30.

Course = 45 from starboad, 45 - 90 = -45, so add 360 to get steering course of 315.

[I'm goin' down]

Torpx means that if, after adding or subtracting 90, if your result is greater than 360, then subtract 360, but if the result is less than zero (instead of 360 as stated), then add 360.

Course = 300 from port, 300 + 90 = 390. Result is greater than 360, so subtract 360 to give steering course of 30.

Course = 45 from starboad, 45 - 90 = -45, so add 360 to get steering course of 315.

That I can understand!

[gutted]

All you have to do is look at the target dial on the left hand side of the TDC.

I dont have the game installed, but if someone can post a closeup screenshot of that dial.. i will show you how to use it. No need for maths.

[razark]

I dont have the game installed, but if someone can post a closeup screenshot of that dial.. i will show you how to use it.
How's this?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=442&pictureid=3613

[gutted]

Ok, so you've entered the target's bearing, and entered your best guess of his AOB.

The top dial is the target, the bottom dial is you:


From looking at the dials you can see the target is on a course of 010 (0 on the target inner dial is his nose.. and wherever it points on the outer dial is his course). It currently points to 1.. .which is 010.

If you want to turn to a 90 degree attack course:
Look at where the inner 9 (.ie 90) on the target dial is OPPOSITE of your current side. You are currently on the Port side (P), so you need to look at the Startboard side (S). The "9" on the inner dial aligns with 10.. which is a course of 100.

Now look at the bottom dial and see where course 100 is in relation to you. It is aligned with "8". So if you turn your scope to 80 and issue the turn to view command, the crew will turn the ship and end up on a course of 100.

Now you are approaching from 90 degrees Port.


Keep updating the bearing and AOB as you approach to fine tune the targets course. Once you think you have it. Start using the speed tool. Whenever it gives you an estimated Speed/Course.. always check the course against the target dial. If it matches, you know the speed is probably good. If they dont match, either your AOB is wrong or the estimate itself is wrong. If you are sure you have the correct target course, consider waiting a longer timing interval. Check it against the course again. If it's still off, you can someitmes split the difference. .ie first time it says couse 80 speed 12, second time it says course 90 speed 9. So you can bet its probably course 85 speed 10-11.

Also, if you've plotted the target on the map and already know his course, you can just fiddle with the AOB until the target dial's nose is pointing to the correct course. This is easier with the Easy AOB mod.

This also comes in handy when attacking a convoy, as they are all heading the same direction. Each time you switch targets, insead of guesstimating the new targets AOB, you can fiddle with the AOB until the course on the taget dial is correct... again it's easier with the Easy AOB mod.

Also.....


The red line at the bottom of the Target dial:
Inner Shows the targets current AOB in relation to you.
Outer Shows the course from the target to you.

Red Line at the top of the Own ship Dial:
Inner shows the periscope bearing the target is currently on.
Outer shows the true course from you to the target.


If you are sneaking in with the PK on, and dont want to keep your scope up.. you can look at the inside dial of the ownship dial to get the current periscope bearing. That way you can have it pointing in the correct direction prior to poppin it out of the water. In the picture above, the target should be at bearing 124 in the scope.


The moving arrows on each dial:
Top dial shows the projected path of the torpedo when it would reach the target.

Bottom dial, the gyro angle.

[gutted]

You can also do things in reverse:

1. Send a range/bearing to the TDC.
2. Wait awhile
3. Send another range/bearing to the TDC.
4. Click the stopwatch to get the esitmated speed/course.
5. Adjust the AOB entry dial until the target dial's course matches the estimate.
6. Note which AOB that results in, and match it visually against the ship.
7. If the AOB looks correct to you, the speed should be correct as well.
8. Send the speed, and turn on the PK.
9. Then formulate your approach using the target and ownship dials. If you want to parallel the target, look at the course his nose is on. and see which persicope bearing that is for you. If you want to turn in to a 90 degree attack, you can do that easily as well.

No need for plotting on the map, or doing any math. Just use the TDC, its there for a reason.

[I'm goin' down]

quite an excellent tutorial, Captain. Thank you.