4-shot salvo or 4 separate shots?

[desirableroasted]

Fellow Kaleuns... what is your preference when you are planning to fire four (or two or three) torpedoes at one target? Salvo or separate?

I ask because I was freely dispensing advice, as is my wont, on another thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=179500), and realized I had no real basis for my thoughts other than "salvos don't work for me, really."

Here is what I wrote... I would love to hear the thoughts and experiences of others.

Shooting salvos almost always fails cost/benefit analysis, especially when you can take the time to find your solution and shoot.

It takes only a half minute or so extra to shoot four separate shots, which, even when you are under pressure, gives you far better target control (and spares you the stress of watching spread angle, etc).

For the past year or two, I've only used salvos (two shot salvos only) when making snap-shots under extreme pressure -- and even then, it has rarely been worth the candle.

Run the Courageous single mission a few times and compare how you do with 4-shot salvos against 4 single shots. I think you will be surprised at the results.

[danexpat]

Proviso: it all depends on my position and the situation. Is it an unescorted merchant in the middle of the North Sea or Atlantic -- or is it close to shore or in a convoy with the clock ticking on air/destroyer response? In the former, I can just freely reposition for a 90-degree shot but not so much in the latter.

Assuming my typical SNAFU approach angles :yeah: I like two-shot mag salvos with next to 0 spread against 7k+ ton targets, under the smokestack if I can to disable her. It's insurance against premature/dud torps and provides a very good likelihood of at least one under-keel hit. I don't use manual torp calculation. I'm proud of myself for just figuring out ruler/compass/protractor intercepts.

N.B.: In rough seas this isn't a great option because you never know at what actual depth the mag torps are going to run.

[Sailor Steve]

I never use the Salvo Switch simply because it fires all the selected torpedoes at once. In real life the Salvo Switch fired them a minimum of eight seconds apart, to avoid interference between the torpedoes.

[Missing Name]

I never use the salvo because of what Sailor Steve just said... and I like hearing the fire button go click for each shot.

[danexpat]

I never use the Salvo Switch simply because it fires all the selected torpedoes at once. In real life the Salvo Switch fired them a minimum of eight seconds apart, to avoid interference between the torpedoes.

There is a delay, but it definitely isn't 8 seconds. I would guess 2, 3 s max.

[JEuler]

In real life the Salvo Switch fired them a minimum of eight seconds apart, to avoid interference between the torpedoes.

Ah, you always learn something new.

[reignofdeath]

I never use the Salvo Switch simply because it fires all the selected torpedoes at once. In real life the Salvo Switch fired them a minimum of eight seconds apart, to avoid interference between the torpedoes.

couldnt there be a way to change this in a mod? Or is it hard coded?

[NoGoodLandLubber]

I fire my shots one at a time. If I'm shooting multiples I usually give between a 5 and 10 count. I too like the click of the fire button!! :haha:

[danexpat]

This is where I get off the verisimilitude train. I just play these things through my initial addiction until I'm ready to move on to my next --

Hey, look! Something shiny!

[Gargamel]

If I'm trying to pick off a high speed / maneuverability target, Then I will use the salvo switch to crank off a 3 shot spread. 1 for where it's supposed to be, and 1 ahead and behind.

But If I'm trying to put multiple eels into a target, I go for single shots, as I want to pick my spots and incur the most damage.

[krashkart]

For the most part I fire singles in a sequence.

The problem I run into with salvos is that I keep forgetting to set the spread angle to 0 and having most or all of those torps miss the mark. :doh:

[frau kaleun]

The problem I run into with salvos is that I keep forgetting to set the spread angle to 0 and having most or all of those torps miss the mark. :doh:

:yep:

I can't remember how many times I've had a salvo set up and just as the target comes into the desired position, I remember I didn't check the spread angle and have to bounce back into the TDC screen to check it. Or even worse I don't remember to remember until just after I fire and then I go back and look and OH CRAP. :damn:

[VONHARRIS]

I rarely fire salvos. When I do , I fire a 3 spread torpedo against a high value target (BB or CV) and keep 1 more fish just in case.

[Pisces]

When choosing salvo or not I think you have to make a distinction between wanting to improve your hit accuracy, or increase the change for hitting something at all. If you want to learn torpedo aiming (manual targeting) or improve your accuracy in TDC settings then you should not fire salvo's. The slight angle that the torpedoes veer off from their base course disguises the feedback you receive from the torpedo-cam or freecam. It's difficult to get a feel for how much that salvo angle corresponds to a position along the target length at different ranges and AOBs. You'll never get a clear idea how much you were wrong with your aim. I suppose if you fire 3 torpedos then the middle one would be able to confirm the accuracy, but 2 definately limits your learning efficiency. The second reason is that instead of 1 attempt with 2 torpedos, you can try 2 attemps with one torpedo. More tries in the long rung(Or 3 if it is a triple-shot) Salvo's can waste torpedos quickly. Often just one torpedo is enough to cause fatal flooding. Why be pre-emptive with more?

However if it is more important for you to get any torpedo impact on the hull, instead of a torpedo on a specific location of the hull, then a salvo is more appropriate. But you'll have to do the mathematics of how wide the target is at that range and AOB, and set your salvo angle accordingly. Just setting a rule-of-thumb angle is unwise. Unless you fire from point-blank range. Then nothing matters.

Personally, I never fire salvo's. I'm always in learning and feedback mode. And a cheapskate. ;)

[Herr-Berbunch]

Wow, looks like it's just me that does fire salvos. Only for the larger vessels and only ever two eels used. I use it to hedge my bets when I'm in the middle of a convoy (still early years :D) and the escorts are bearing down on me. I'd never use it for a lone vessel, hmmm - unless it was a nice juicy carrier...!

Aside from the first time I ever fired a salvo, and missed, I've never forgotton to change the spread angle - you watch, tonight I will :nope:

[Sailor Steve]

This is where I get off the verisimilitude train. I just play these things through my initial addiction until I'm ready to move on to my next --

Hey, look! Something shiny!
:rotfl2: :rock:

We all have our little vices. I've listed mine far too many times to repeat them here.

[Herr-Berbunch]

:rotfl2: :rock:

We all have our little vices. I've listed mine far too many times to repeat them here.

But isn't that one of your little vices? :O:

[Jimbuna]

Never resort to salvos personally....nver enough eels to play with as it is.

[Obersteuermann]

As a rule I only use salvoes against battleships and carriers. I find that a 2-torpedo spread against battleships, with the spread angle set to pop the eels into the fore and aft magazines, gives the best results.

Against carriers ... well, my evasion tactics aren't the best and generally I want to shoot as many torpedoes as needed in as little time as possible so I can get away quick. I've only fired a 3-shot salvo once, and that was when I found a Bogue class escorted by half a dozen Clemsons ... on 4th July. :D

[reignofdeath]

Wow, looks like it's just me that does fire salvos. Only for the larger vessels and only ever two eels used. I use it to hedge my bets when I'm in the middle of a convoy (still early years :D) and the escorts are bearing down on me. I'd never use it for a lone vessel, hmmm - unless it was a nice juicy carrier...!

Aside from the first time I ever fired a salvo, and missed, I've never forgotton to change the spread angle - you watch, tonight I will :nope:

I use salvos as well, quite often in fact. On any ship larger than 6k tons I do a two shot salvo, Battleships, cruisers, or anything over 10k tons I do 3 or more shot salvos.

[desirableroasted]

I use salvos as well, quite often in fact. On any ship larger than 6k tons I do a two shot salvo, Battleships, cruisers, or anything over 10k tons I do 3 or more shot salvos.

To me, that seems a way to waste torpedoes. Almost any ship under 10K will go down with one shot, and many over 10K will, especially if helped along wtih the deck gun (obviously of limited use later in the war, and in rough seas).

My goal (which I usually reach or get within knocking distance) in 39-40 is 3500 tons per torpedo, or 49K if I fire everything (but I usually dont). Deck gun fills in the blanks, and gives the gravy.

But with salvos, I can't see that happening.

Thank you all for your advice.

I think my doctrine from now on will certainly be.

1) No salvos unless in a snapshot situation against a fast-moving capital ship. And then only two.

2) One shot per ship. If the shot detonates, wait and see if it is showing damage. If it does not, set up a new shot.

[Gargamel]

To me, that seems a way to waste torpedoes. Almost any ship under 10K will go down with one shot, and many over 10K will, especially if helped along wtih the deck gun (obviously of limited use later in the war, and in rough seas).

I know I have sunk some 25k and 40k ton liners with single eel shots. They just took a while. 2 2 shot salvos, one eel missed from each, but hit liners behind them, so I sunk 4 liners, just really slowly.

And then I threw some mud at the Hood. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1528688&highlight=tragedy#post1528688

[reignofdeath]

well in that regards how long does it usually take for those ships to sink?? I can put one into the bow of a small merchant and sometimes it even seems like even THOSE take forever to sink!

My thinking is I dont feel like waiting around for afew hours to watch a merchant sink and then have a destroyer bearing down on me because the darned merchant decided to send an S.o.S. which is another question, does the game model this? (Sinking ships or attacked ships signal for help and destroyers come-a-callin?

[Gargamel]

well in that regards how long does it usually take for those ships to sink?? I can put one into the bow of a small merchant and sometimes it even seems like even THOSE take forever to sink!

My thinking is I dont feel like waiting around for afew hours to watch a merchant sink and then have a destroyer bearing down on me because the darned merchant decided to send an S.o.S. which is another question, does the game model this? (Sinking ships or attacked ships signal for help and destroyers come-a-callin?


Only if they're within range, ie they've already spawned. I attacked a lone merchant off the north coast of the Orkney's (like AN1457 ish) at night once. I never saw the DD about 12-15km away. First torp hit, and I soon heard the report of a deck gun. This was late 39 or early '40. I didn't know what was going on, then the star shell exploded and the watch started screaming things about a DD headed our way. About face! Flank Speed!

So yeah, if' they've spawned in the world, they will sometimes respond to SSS calls. Thats why harbor raiding is difficult. Most of the patrols come running when you hit.

[Obersteuermann]

well in that regards how long does it usually take for those ships to sink?? I can put one into the bow of a small merchant and sometimes it even seems like even THOSE take forever to sink!
Where do you aim? I find that one magnetic eel running between 0.5 and 1m under the keel, aimed at the aftmost point of the foc's'le, does the job on all ships up to 11k tons.

[Hottentot]

I use 2 shot salvos occasionally with convoys that tend to have more valuable targets and better escorts. I fire single shots at the closest targets, but for that big thing in the middle I might use a salvo. The British Storm Generator makes sure the weather is always awful when I'm near a convoy, so if I'm not exactly sure of my solution, I fire a salvo with small spread to maximize the chance of hitting in the first place and preferably in two different spots.

Way too many times I have hit the target, but haven't managed to sink it or even slow it down enough to kill it later by following the convoy and seeing if it lags behind. So nowadays I'd rather sink the target with the first opportunity and use two eels for it rather than miss with one. That one opportunity might be the only one I get. Some of my most frustrating experiences have been like these: fire four shots at four targets. Hear four impacts. All sail on happily. The destroyer hydrophone operator finds my vessel by following the sound of my swearing.

And as for battle ships? I don't care how many torpedoes it takes, that thing is going down. I have played entire careers without even seeing one. I can afford it.

[Tessa]

I rarely fire salvos. When I do , I fire a 3 spread torpedo against a high value target (BB or CV) and keep 1 more fish just in case.

Larger targets like those can be a double edged sword in terms of how easily they can be sunk. If going fast or in rough waters 1 torpedo can sink pretty much anything either by hitting a weak spot or a shot to the forecastle of the boat so its own forward motion forces water in faster. Then again if you bet you hand all on one card and miss rather than salvo when you do have the torpedoes to spare you'll feel like crap and probably not get off another shot.

If a large target like a BB is being stubborn and only marginally slowing down and still in target range I'll use the large merchant rule of thumb. 1 BB is worth the same as approximately 3 large merchants; a large merchant is easily sunk with just 1 torpedo, so as long as I can down the larger target with 3 or less torpedoes is a good exchange. If I've missed the first, hit the second and slowed it down and the third marginally slows it down (but not slow enough for it to still be able to easily outrun you) expending a 4th torpedo to finish it off becomes a tough situation, if you hit it's likely to be the finishing blow, if you miss you've pretty much wasted 4 eels and nothing to show for it.

Generally only time I consider using a salvo is on a BB with 4 turrets (with 2 fore and 2 aft) and will aim to hit under both magazines simultaneously, and that's only if I'm using a magnetic setting so that both torpedoes will have rougly the same draft to be aiming at (once they're hit and start to sink doing a magnetic shot become increasingly difficult). Even then I'll still usually set tubes 1/4, 2/3 to the desired depth and fire em individually as the target crosses the recticle.