Now this is too much !

[Catfish]

It is 1939, Western approaches.

A convoy of one battleship (!), 10 destroyers, and appx. 12 merchant ships is heading toward England.

- I was 8000 meters ahead of the convoy at night in rain and fog. They saw me.
Next try:
- I am at 10000 meters and dive, let the convoy go on above me. They find me at 160 meters depth, engines stopped, silent running.
- Next time i got in surfaced, the battleship destroyed me at some 8000 meters with no visibility (night, fog, whatever).
- Next time i got in submerged, sunk the battleship and two freighters.
Am down at 160 meters, some damage. At last 10 destroyers above me hours later, circling around my exact position, dropping charges and charges and charges. Not every charge hits but those which are most distant do the most damage. Each destroyer must have 100 dephth charges at least, i have stopped counting.
Does anyone notice that the modders try to fix the same things again and again ?

Guys this is ridiculous.

1. No battleship would escort a convoy in 1939, ok maybe they just tried that out ?
2. Not much convoys in 1939, not yet.
3. England did not have enough destroyers, anyone remembers the lend and lease thing with the US ? 40 old 4-stackers because England had not enough destroyers before 1942 ? Initially those had no ASDIC and most not even Radar. Now in 1939 we have 10 radar- and ASDIC equipped full-blown destroyers for one convoy, from late Fletcher class to whatnot in 1939, with well-experienced crews from 1945, or maybe much later.

Not to forget that the type VIIa is obviously not able to dive below 150 meters without taking hull damage.

I could list another hundred details that do not fit, from one screw not turning whan charging the batteries to all that other B$ that resides in the Silent Hunter series from SH3 on. Why the hell did they not improve the sim by also making it a bit more historically correct ? This has all been mentioned a thousand times ! Here, at UBIsoft forums and in numerous other simulation forums.

There's nothing more frustrating than such concocted history.
Sorry for the rant, but i am really disappointed; first you see a promising sim, and then that. :stare:

Doenitz would have resigned in september 1939, under those conditions. :rotfl2:

Well, rant over,
Catfish

[Poacher886]

Are you playing the Vanilla game or modded?, but otherwise i agree, the same old, same old, Problems, all of which could be sorted by the devs before releasing.

Sometimes i wonder who their target audience is!, i mean, the sim gamer especially those who will be choose something as niche' as a Subsim, will almost certainly be buying for subject interest and wanting something as close to the real experience as possible.

The casual gamer need not apply and most probably won't.

[Bilge_Rat]

Catfish, a couple of points:



1. No battleship would escort a convoy in 1939, ok maybe they just tried that out ?

actually, the Royal Navy did use capital ships as convoy escorts in 1939, since they were as worried by German surface warships (Graf Spee, Scharnhorst, Gneiseneau, etc.) as by submarines.
2. Not much convoys in 1939, not yet.

convoys started as soon as the war did in early september. England had suffered in WW1 from starting convoying late and on that point, the RN was ready in 39.

3. England did not have enough destroyers, anyone remembers the lend and lease thing with the US ? 40 old 4-stackers because England had not enough destroyers before 1942 ?

Actually, the RN had many destroyers available in 1939 with experienced crews. The French Navy was also available. The escort shortage started in summer 40 and was caused by many factors: France surrendered, many RN warships were damaged/sunk at Dunkirk and the RN kept a sizable force, including many fleet detroyers in england to guard against a German invasion.

Initially those had no ASDIC and most not even Radar. Now in 1939 we have 10 radar- and ASDIC equipped full-blown destroyers for one convoy, from late Fletcher class to whatnot in 1939, with well-experienced crews from 1945, or maybe much later.



RN fleet destroyers had ASDIC in 1939, although you are right about radar, it only became generally available starting in spring 41.

On the other points, what mods are you using? it does'nt sound like the stock game.

[THE_MASK]

If you use IRAI you can tone down the AI . I personally use 0.9 for non merchants and leave merchants as is .

[Harmsway!]

If you use IRAI you can tone down the AI . I personally use 0.9 for non merchants and leave merchants as is .

I thought we already had this discussion (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=178923) with Catfish a couple weeks ago. But we didn't quite make it to this point. But it was Catfish's thread that got me to set IRAI to 0.9 as well.

[Sailor Steve]

2. Not much convoys in 1939, not yet.
The first convoy left Capetown for Gibraltar on September 3. By October there were up to 16 convoys at sea at any one time.

[mobucks]

The third point you say you got in and sunk BB and 2 Freighters. Nice Job! Though they got you, you at least got way further than try 1 and 2.

I may town down IRAI as well. (lets face it, most of us are prob. using Magnum Opus)


Anyway, yeah there are still things wrong with the game, but look where we are now compared to release. If modders stay interested in fixing the game, we could have a great sim in another year or so.

Like anyone, id rather have a complete game upon release, but sadly that is not the state of the industry it seems. Shes a beaut to look at though! I say shes got legs, looking that good, to provide entertainment for years to come, perhaps perfected over time!

[THE_MASK]

Its not real life , you are not actually in ww2 .

[Catfish]

Its not real life , you are not actually in ww2 .

Oops :oops:

:rotfl2:

[Catfish]

The first convoy left Capetown for Gibraltar on September 3. By October there were up to 16 convoys at sea at any one time.

Hmm, i wonder which ships were sunk then ? Compared to all ships heading to or from England convoys were the exception as far as i read, in 1939 and the first half of 1940 ?
You may be right, but in most of the accounts that have been published the few convoys that were, were scarcely defended, if at all.
Seldomly a real destroyer, but often just harbour tugs and hastily repaired ships of all kinds, pressed into duty. Up to 1941 seldomly a corvette, but those were slower than the U-boats, which would just outrun them on the surface.
What rendered the ASDIC useless was that the boats were going in surfaced, at full speed like a "Schnellboot", so ASDIC was pretty useless and few ships had radar - even then a U-boat closer than 1000 meters was invisible on a radar screen, so the boats were relatively secure at night.

Most accounts well into 1940 show U-boats halting single freighters, still under the prize law (giving a warning shot, control papers, and then let a neutral go, or sink a british vessel). I admit England reacted much faster however, than it had in WW1. After 1940 usually only fast ships like modern freighters or troop ships sailed alone, relying on their speed and the U-boats being interested in the convoys.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Catfish]

Hello Bilge_Rat,


"... actually, the Royal Navy did use capital ships as convoy escorts in 1939, since they were as worried by German surface warships (Graf Spee, Scharnhorst, Gneiseneau, etc.) as by submarines.
convoys started as soon as the war did in early september. England had suffered in WW1 from starting convoying late and on that point, the RN was ready in 39. ..."

Hm, ok with some warships, but much convoys in 1939 ? And defended convoys ?
The british declaration of war was at september 3rd 1939, and despite the declaration the british merchant fleet was not really ready for a war, and initially also not for convoy duty (the german fleet and Navy wasn't so well prepared either).
As the sinking numbers and accounts in the reports of 1939 show the majority of the english trade fleets were not sailing in convoys then.
It also takes some time to organize convoy systems and train the crews. But ok, some obviously did.


" ... Actually, the RN had many destroyers available in 1939 with experienced crews. The French Navy was also available. The escort shortage started in summer 40 and was caused by many factors: France surrendered, many RN warships were damaged/sunk at Dunkirk and the RN kept a sizable force, including many fleet detroyers in england to guard against a German invasion. ..."

Ok, this sounds reasonable, and i did not know it. Were so much destroyers sunk, at Dunkirk ? I have heard two differing accounts of this - some say Hitler let them go intentionally unharmed while other sources speak of heavy attacks - frankly i don't know, but a lot of the british troops made it to England.


" ... RN fleet destroyers had ASDIC in 1939, although you are right about radar, it only became generally available starting in spring 41. ..."

They relied heavily on ASDIC, but ASDIC was rather useless against U-boats attacking like torpedo boats at night, on the surface. And yes Radar was used, but as you wrote not all Navy ships had it. But i really doubt there were enough fleet destroyers to guard all convoys that were necessary to support England. They used all kinds of ships as an "Ersatz" escorts. Even the corvettes used as destroyer escorts were slower than the U-boats; as soon as a boat had penetrated the escort screen, it was pretty much unreachable.

Anyway like in Silent Hunter V : 10+ Fletcher class destroyers with well-trained "Walker-like" crews, for a 12-ship convoy, plus a battleship, in 1939 ? :-?


"... On the other points, what mods are you using? it does'nt sound like the stock game. ..".

Yes i use TDW's "Opus magnum" mod (with patch 2), where the IRAI AI seems to be increased. Will see if i tone it down a bit, at least in 1939 :hmmm:

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Bilge_Rat]

It is true that most of the ships sunk by U-boats during the war were sailing alone, either by choice or stragglers from a convoy. Except for certain areas and time, namely as I recall the North Atlantic run in the middle of the war, sailing in convoy was never obligatory, and certain fast ships were always exempt.


However, convoys did start in september 1939, so there would be nothing unusual in running into a convoy at any time in the war, even one escorted by a BB in 1939. The HMS Royal Oak was assigned to convoy escort duty, before it was sunk at Scapa Flow by Prien, although I agree the composition of the one you ran into looks a bit strange.

[TheDarkWraith]

what we need to do is 'clone' the sonar's and hydrophone's and reduce their effectiveness. Then assign these clones as the ship's hydrophone's and sonar's in the early years via the ship's .sns files. This would model the ship's hydrophone's and sonar's in the early years of the war more accurately :yep:

[CCIP]

There were plenty of convoys and on the approaches to England they were generally escorted, including by large surface units to protect against German raiders - the convoys were only left unescorted further out in the ocean.

I think you're interpreting the lack of historical attacks on convoys as a lack of convoys as such, and the British concern over their ability to escort them as a lack of escort. Neither is true. In fact the lack of attacks on convoys has more to do with the fact that the Germans had very few boats available at the start of the war, these numbers being too few to execute Doenitz's successful wolfpack tactics. It's not an easy task finding a convoy with just one or two boats, and an impossible task sticking in contact with it (something that SH games don't make obvious enough). Even a small (but competent) escort can deal with one boat - something Doenitz realized from the start. Make it a half-dozen boats, and then even a heavy escort might struggle - but you need to actually have those boats available and deployed to hunt that convoy first, something that's hard to do with what was at best 30 ocean-going boats in total in the first year of the war. As a result, only a few convoys were subject to attack - which, more than anything, is an indicator that the convoy system was in fact quite successful from the start. However U-boats had plenty of other targets to hunt at that time, and so they were simply not deployed to actually hunt down convoys until enough boats to actually became available. It wasn't until 1941, though, that wolfpack tactics and with them substantial convoy battles really started happening in earnest. But again, that's really not an indication that convoys weren't there or were unescorted - this had much less to do with the British situation and more with the Germans' initial lack of boats.

[Bilge_Rat]

what we need to do is 'clone' the sonar's and hydrophone's and reduce their effectiveness. Then assign these clones as the ship's hydrophone's and sonar's in the early years via the ship's .sns files. This would model the ship's hydrophone's and sonar's in the early years of the war more accurately :yep:

I do not know what is available, but is there only one type of SONAR/ASDIC available?

from my reading of Blair and other sources, the issue appears to be more one of crew rating than the equipment.

For example, I re-read part of Blair vol.1 last night on actions in september 1939. The RN started the war with with 175 destroyers, although only about half, the more modern ones had the up to date ASDIC equipment and crews trained in their operation. In sept. 1939, the RN formed their 4 fleet carriers into ASW groups guarded by the most modern destroyers. Results:

1. around sept. 15, U-30 was attacked by 3 fleet destroyers detached from the HMS Ark Royal Group. They found her, tracked her and kept her down for 6 hours until U-30 managed to break contact and escape;

2.on sept 14, U-39 unsuccessfully attacked HMS Ark Royal. It was attacked by 3 destroyers from the group which first tracked her in line abreast formation, each ship 1 mile apart, and then carried out multiple DC attacks most at 100-150 feet depth, but the last one with DCs set at 250 and 500 feet depth. The U-39 surfaced and scuttled.

3. in mid-september 39 again, U-27 attacked what it thought was a group of cruisers at dusk. It turned out to be 7 RN destroyers which counterattacked. U-27 dove "deep" to 120 meters (393 feet), but suffered a damaged prop shaft from the DCs. The U-Boat surfaced at night to try to escape, but was spotted, ran down and forced to scuttle.

obviously, these destroyers would probably be ranked "veteran" or "elite".

[Sailor Steve]

Hmm, i wonder which ships were sunk then ? Compared to all ships heading to or from England convoys were the exception as far as i read, in 1939 and the first half of 1940 ?
You may be right, but in most of the accounts that have been published the few convoys that were, were scarcely defended, if at all.
I can't speak to who the u-boats attacked. I only know my research into the convoys. You can find out how many convoys and what ships were involved on any day of the war here:
http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/index.html (click on 'Convoy Finder')

On October 1, 1939 there were 15 convoys at sea. Eleven of them were cross-channel convoys; the other four were from/to Halifax or Capetown. The Halifax convoy (HX.3) was escorted by a light cruiser and two Canadian destroyers. That's not much, so even a single u-boat would have a decent chance of bagging a merchant or two.

Even worse, the so-called convoy out of Jamaica was three merchants with no escort.

What I find interesting, and unexplained, is the fact that the Channel convoy leaving Loire for Bristol on the 1st had no escort, while the one the very next day had five!

You're right - there were a lot of single ships at sea, but every day saw a large convoy and a bunch of smaller ones somewhere.

[Catfish]

Hello,

thanks for the links and information, SailorSteve the convoy page link is really a phantastic resource. You wrote
" ... You're right - there were a lot of single ships at sea, but every day saw a large convoy and a bunch of smaller ones somewhere ..."
Well, Germany somehow lost the war - and it was decided at sea, with all kind of resources getting to England despite the odds.

To CCIP - i agree later in the war, but initially few destroyers were doing convoy service or so it seems. Anyway their numbers were too scarce to protect all merchant shipping around the british isles - the 40 (?) aging US destroyers received through the lend and lease agreement were requested for a reason.

The boats would then try to attack before the destroyers met them for the last miles to escort them through the western approaches, or along the northern route.
Later in the war, but long before Hitler declared war to the US, the US destroyers had accompanied convoys to mid-atlantic, and then let them go from there, then shielded by british destroyers - at the "Momp" (mid-ocean meeting point). Some destroyers just steamed on and helped their british friends in detecting U-boats, sometimes even dephth charging them, without war declaration.
The US had just extended their territorial waters to the mid-atlantic, to make any attack on "their" western side a reason for entering the war - something Hitler tried to avoid at all costs. But this took some time and it was not done until 1942 or so i think.


To TDW and BilgeRat:

There seem to be different generations of sensors built-into SH5, but i have no idea whether and how they work correct - or if at the right time - or if at all.
This is a very good site for ASDIC information:
http://jproc.ca/sari/index.html

I know it is usually doubtable to quote the internet, however this is exactly what i read in german books (and i am very thankful i do not have to translate all that, already at 50+ pages english text about Zeppelin attacks to translate) ..

From this site:
" ... To say that convoys were well protected by Asdic would be an understatement especially in the early years of the war. Typically, a convoy consisting of 30 to 50 merchant ships created a perimeter distance of 16 to 18 miles. In theory, the escorts were positioned so that their Asdic beams overlapped, providing unbroken coverage of the convoy perimeter. The reality of the situation was different. An escort group usually consisted of one destroyer and three of four corvettes, barely enough to provide proper coverage especially with Asdic whose range limits averaged around 2000 yards under normal conditions. When convoys did have sufficient escorts, not all the Asdic sets were used simultaneously. ..."

I have no idea how to use the information in SH5, or if it is possible at all - would sure be a hell of a task.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[nikimcbee]

It is 1939, Western approaches.

A convoy of one battleship (!), 10 destroyers, and appx. 12 merchant ships is heading toward England.

- I was 8000 meters ahead of the convoy at night in rain and fog. They saw me.
Next try:
- I am at 10000 meters and dive, let the convoy go on above me. They find me at 160 meters depth, engines stopped, silent running.
- Next time i got in surfaced, the battleship destroyed me at some 8000 meters with no visibility (night, fog, whatever).
- Next time i got in submerged, sunk the battleship and two freighters.
Am down at 160 meters, some damage. At last 10 destroyers above me hours later, circling around my exact position, dropping charges and charges and charges. Not every charge hits but those which are most distant do the most damage. Each destroyer must have 100 dephth charges at least, i have stopped counting.
Does anyone notice that the modders try to fix the same things again and again ?

Guys this is ridiculous.

1. No battleship would escort a convoy in 1939, ok maybe they just tried that out ?
2. Not much convoys in 1939, not yet.
3. England did not have enough destroyers, anyone remembers the lend and lease thing with the US ? 40 old 4-stackers because England had not enough destroyers before 1942 ? Initially those had no ASDIC and most not even Radar. Now in 1939 we have 10 radar- and ASDIC equipped full-blown destroyers for one convoy, from late Fletcher class to whatnot in 1939, with well-experienced crews from 1945, or maybe much later.

Not to forget that the type VIIa is obviously not able to dive below 150 meters without taking hull damage.

I could list another hundred details that do not fit, from one screw not turning whan charging the batteries to all that other B$ that resides in the Silent Hunter series from SH3 on. Why the hell did they not improve the sim by also making it a bit more historically correct ? This has all been mentioned a thousand times ! Here, at UBIsoft forums and in numerous other simulation forums.

There's nothing more frustrating than such concocted history.
Sorry for the rant, but i am really disappointed; first you see a promising sim, and then that. :stare:

Doenitz would have resigned in september 1939, under those conditions. :rotfl2:

Well, rant over,
Catfish

sounds like the sh2 ai?:shifty:

[Takeda Shingen]

sounds like the sh2 ai?:shifty:

I wonder if you can 'cloak' by having your rudder go hard to port, hard to starboard and then midships.

[Bilge_Rat]

sounds like the sh2 ai?:shifty:

Don't forget Catfish is not playing with the mild watered down stock AI, but with TDW's IRAI mod, which in its unadulterated form can be like "Bungo Pete" reincarnated..:arrgh!:

[Catfish]

Small heads up.

Was just sunk by a hunter group consisting of 6 destroyers and one light cruiser accompanying 1 (one) Cimarron tanker, in october 1939.
At 160 meters, running silent with 50 revolutions/minute and the crew put to rest.

The first two depth charges hit at my exact depth, at the exact point, one meter left and right of the conning tower :dead:
(Had i survived i had told Donuts he can put his U-boats were the sun don't shine; the british defence is invincible :oops:)

Have to find out where to lower the AI settings .. maybe there is a setting for zero, or maybe -1. ;)

Greetings,
Catfish

[stoianm]

Small heads up.

Was just sunk by a hunter group consisting of 6 destroyers and one light cruiser accompanying 1 (one) Cimarron tanker, in october 1939.
At 160 meters, running silent with 50 revolutions/minute and the crew put to rest.

The first two depth charges hit at my exact depth, at the exact point, one meter left and right of the conning tower :dead:
(Had i survived i had told Donuts he can put his U-boats were the sun don't shine; the british defence is invincible :oops:)

Have to find out where to lower the AI settings .. maybe there is a setting for zero, or maybe -1. ;)

Greetings,
Catfish

Read here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=171973&page=69

NOTE: is this mod perfect? NO WAY. It will continue to evolve as I learn more about the files and the game itself. Does the mod contain any bugs or errors? I hope not but to say it doesn't would be foolish. I will address errors/bugs as users find them and post them in my AIs thread.

NOTE: this mod can be customized by editing the \data\Scripts\AI\init.AIX. I went to great lengths to make it user customizable and for testing different setups/configurations (testing)

Although it is setup for the complete beginner to use the AI difficulty might be too much for the beginner. You can adjust the AI difficulty by editing the following file \data\Scripts\AI\init.aix. Find the following section:

###################### Difficulty parameters ####################
# Note: difficulty is in range 0.0 - 1.0 with 0.0 being no difficulty (sensor doesn't exist)
# for non-merchants
VISUAL_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;

# for merchants
VISUAL_DIFFICULTY_MERCHANT = 1.0;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY_MERCHANT = 1.0;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY_MERCHANT = 1.0;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY_MERCHANT = 1.0;

Difficulty is from 0.0 to 1.0 with 1.0 meaning 100% difficulty. I recommend adjusting only the highlighted values. If you are a beginner I would recommend values of 0.8-0.85 for those highlighted. If you are an intermediate I would recommend 0.85-0.9 for those values. If you are an expert I would recommend 0.9-1.0 for those values.

[kiwi_2005]

I had the same thing happen with my first patrol up against the carrier taskforce, sunk the carrier but couldn't escape escorts knew exactly where I was, silent running, depth charges! Dead. Tried 3 times before just giving up. I had IRAI mod enable now I just run Ui boat /open Horizon & Environment 5 mods and can now get away from escorts, mostly. :haha:

[stoianm]

I had the same thing happen with my first patrol up against the carrier taskforce, sunk the carrier but couldn't escape escorts knew exactly where I was, silent running, depth charges! Dead. Tried 3 times before just giving up. I had IRAI mod enable now I just run Ui boat /open Horizon & Environment 5 mods and can now get away from escorts, mostly. :haha:

If you change the setings in IRAI mod before activated you will have a lot more fun (runing with IRA enabled - in my opinion):

1. Go in IRA mod and open init.AIX (\data\Scripts\AI\init.AIX)

2. You wil have inside:

VISUAL_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;


3. Change with:

VISUAL_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;
HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY = 0.8;
RADAR_DIFFICULTY = 1.0;
SONAR_DIFFICULTY = 0.8;

(this TDW recomanded for ,,beginers,,)

4. Save

5. Enable the IRA mod


After that you can escape easyest for DDs.

If is still to ,,hard,, for you to play you can changes the 2 yellow lines (HYDROPHONE_DIFFICULTY = 0.8; and SONAR_DIFFICULTY = 0.8;) with smallers values between 0.0 and 1.0

I also recomand to have the mod ,,AirTorpedoes,, installed after IRAI mod.

I tested almost all the mods from the forum. Belive me, you must to have these 2 mods installed!

[Catfish]

Hello,
hey many thanks, i did not even expect an answer for my rant lol :D
Now i do not even have to search for the location ..
Will change this and see :up:

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[stoianm]

Hello,
hey many thanks, i did not even expect an answer for my rant lol :D
Now i do not even have to search for the location ..
Will change this and see :up:

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

You wellcome mate!:yeah:

[Bilge_Rat]

I have been checking out TDW's IRAI mod. From what I can see, the range of the passive/active sonar does not appear to differ greatly from stock. The big change is in the search and attack behavior and the length of time the escorts will keep searching for you after they lose contact.

The standard evasion tactic of going as deep as you can and using "silent running" to slowly crawl out of the area should still be the most effective. When you are deep, the escort's passive/active sonar cone is very small, so the escort would have to be practically on top of you to pick you up.

[Catfish]

"I have been checking out TDW's IRAI mod. From what I can see, the range of the passive/active sonar does not appear to differ greatly from stock. The big change is in the search and attack behavior and the length of time the escorts will keep searching for you after they lose contact. ..."

Ahaa, ok - so it looks as if they have more patience and will show some ambition with that change - works very well i have to say ..


... The standard evasion tactic of going as deep as you can and using "silent running" to slowly crawl out of the area should still be the most effective. When you are deep, the escort's passive/active sonar cone is very small, so the escort would have to be practically on top of you to pick you up."

Yeah, right. This is a destroyer exactly above me (i am close to the ocean bottom, running silent with some 0.7 knots or 50 revs at 160 meters), and when he throws the depth charges in a few seconde, two of them will explode left and right of my conning tower. It is a bit dark, but you see that he is right above me - would be the same at PD, or at 50 meters. They never fail, and this is his first run:


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/DatMark.jpg

;)

Greetings,
Catfish

[Bilge_Rat]

Yeah, right. This is a destroyer exactly above me (i am close to the ocean bottom, running silent with some 0.7 knots or 50 revs at 160 meters), and when he throws the depth charges in a few seconde, two of them will explode left and right of my conning tower. It is a bit dark, but you see that he is right above me - would be the same at PD, or at 50 meters. They never fail, and this is his first run:




TDW may have made them too good..:D

[Catfish]

"TDW may have made them too good.. :D "

I tend to agree :D

But it still is a lot of fun, even if i will change the AI settings in harbour before my 3rd patrol.
I have exterior view set to onj for the gorgeous graphics, but i wonder why the red mark is not removed automatically, with TDW's mod. It is good for testing though ...

Greetings,
Catfish

[stoianm]

"TDW may have made them too good.. :D "

I tend to agree :D

But it still is a lot of fun, even if i will change the AI settings in harbour before my 3rd patrol.
I have exterior view set to onj for the gorgeous graphics, but i wonder why the red mark is not removed automatically, with TDW's mod. It is good for testing though ...

Greetings,
Catfish

What red mark you are talking to?

[mobucks]

probably the red arrow on the water above sub when you are submerged.


OT:
I turned off external cam because i cheat with it, but i find the "free cam" to be a perfect comprimise. I can move camera anywhere with it, but it is so slow that i can only use it for eye candy, and not zooming across the water looking inside harbors or through fogs.

[Catfish]

^^ yes, i mean the red marker on the surface, indicating my boat's position.

And one more rant an i'll quit, promised :D


Convoy off Land's End.
Saw it from 20.000 meters distance with calm seas, good weather, ran parallel, saved game.

Reloaded game, visibility now 50 meters, storm.
Great, so saved games do not save sea state, and weather conditions like visibility at all.
Bad enough, but now i decided to go straight for the convoy in this conditions, they would never see me muhahahah

Now, i could not see anything but with exterior camera on i cheated and now counted 8 destroyers ?! Ooops.
So the sim also does not save numbers of escorts and, as i found out, course - because now the south-running convoy headed north :dead:

To make a long story short i dived, listened, ran, dived etc. until i was at the left side of the convoy in roughly 50 meters visibility, by listening and running. I turned 90 degrees and went in, and all destroyers came straight at me - when i was surfaced !! In that "visibility" ! I swear i never saw anything at all, but they were shooting at me from invisible positions, one ran just over me.

Crash-dived, out-manoeuvered them for an hour running silent and slow, a raging storm above me (they would never hear anything in their hydrophones, they would not have had radar, there would not have been 8 destroyers, and even ASDIC in that storm would probably have had difficulties to pick me up, when i am close to the ground - but it seems they again knew exactly where i was).
Besides all the time messages came pouring in, from merchants and destroyers "submarine sighted at ... (my position), but i never saw anyone.
So when the visibility is low, it is only low for U-boats in SH5, all other AI ships can see for miles.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/SH5AI.jpg

There were 4 more depth-charging me exactly at the U-mark, and this was the last (6th) one which made me finally sink:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y174/penaeus/SH5AI2.jpg

Great sim, for destroyers :88)


Edit: Update, despite being depth charged and lot of damage i have somehow survived, and i decided not to quit but wait - and we had abreached hull, hull damage down to 64 percent (whatever THAT means - i have never understood that way of thinking from SH 1 on. Either the hull is damaged, or not.
The crew is repairing but it is only 100 meters deep here - wonder if they will get me ... let's see ...
And i can hear the sirens and horns of the destroyers above, in the boat lol

Greetings,
Catfish

[nikimcbee]

Don't forget Catfish is not playing with the mild watered down stock AI, but with TDW's IRAI mod, which in its unadulterated form can be like "Bungo Pete" reincarnated..:arrgh!:

My claim to fame, I think I was one of the first people to notice the SH2 AI was fubared. Sadly, I can't find any of those posts. Thay would put me back to 1999ish. I just remember the whole SH2 saga-circus:stare::shifty:, and after all of that, to have the game (the vanilla version) be a dud.

Anyway, it didn't matter what you did, the destroyers always found you and dropped their DCs spot on.:shifty:

[Catfish]

Yes, they will still drop their ashcans exactly where you are.

It seems the mod does not change this (yet), only they find you better :-?
Now they also throw charges farther away, but if you are inside of a certain distance there is no chance, and this is wrong because just of all that close the ASDIC would temporarily lose contact, so a sudden fast turn would save you, at least for that attack run. Even several destroyers would not use the hydrophones while charges were thrown for obvious reasons. ASDIC is another thing ...

As well the boat gives in a bit too early, every time there is a damage your hull will suffer, while in reality it would merely have been a ruptured pipe, or some blown fuses without damaging the pressure hull as such.
Certainly, they used wooden beams to support dents in the pressure hull if charges had gone off really close - but to have a "pressurehull-o-meter" in percent ? :88) Either the hull is cracked, or not. And you will sure know it ..


Also remember SH2, i enjoyed it for the graphics (for that time lol) and played the competely scripted "campaign" (15 missions ?) one time, and the single mission at the Azores and the refuel one several times. And then never again ..

SH3 was a quantum leap, but the same depth charge problem. And SH4. And SH5.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Takeda Shingen]

SH2 was released on 11/6/01. We sat and waited for a long, long time and that game just came up short. Then there was the 'cloaking' issue.

[Sailor Steve]

The depth charge problem was fixed with a mod in SH3, and I think in SH4. Why not SH5?

Or has it?

[stoianm]

The depth charge problem was fixed with a mod in SH3, and I think in SH4. Why not SH5?

Or has it?

No, was not. They still drop all their dept charges on you whatever you are doing.:doh:

[Bilge_Rat]

The depth charge problem was fixed with a mod in SH3, and I think in SH4. Why not SH5?

Or has it?

It was fixed Steve. In stock SH5, the AI is less competent, will drop DCs away from your position and will lose contact with you and stop dropping DCs.

The problem here (if there is a problem) is that in TDWs IRAI v.29 at the highest difficulty level, the escort AI can find you and follow you everytime and will keep dropping DCs on your exact position until you are DEAD! However, I see TDW is already working on a v.30 of his mod to tone down the AI.

btw, if anyone wants to see how flexible the scripts in SH5 can be, just compare the init.AIX file that came with the stock game and the one TDW includes with his mod. TDW has added tons of custom scripts that make the AI come alive and use proper tactics. He has even created scripts that causes the AI to lose effectiveness as the crew becomes "fatigued" during a long battle, meaning that if you can hold out long enough, the escorts will eventually lose contact.

The only issue now is to bring it down from "super-human" to "merely-human". :arrgh!:

[stoianm]

Yes, i am using IRAI v.30 and my level of dificulty is betwen 90 and 95!

[Sailor Steve]

It was fixed Steve. In stock SH5, the AI is less competent, will drop DCs away from your position and will lose contact with you and stop dropping DCs.

The problem here (if there is a problem) is that in TDWs IRAI v.29 at the highest difficulty level, the escort AI can find you and follow you everytime and will keep dropping DCs on your exact position until you are DEAD! However, I see TDW is already working on a v.30 of his mod to tone down the AI.
Thanks. There was a little mod for SH3 that reduced the effective blast radius of the charges to correct levels, which meant that it is possible to recieve a pounding that lasts hours and still get away alive. Not always, but most of the time.

[kiwi_2005]

Also remember SH2, i enjoyed it for the graphics (for that time lol) and played the competely scripted "campaign" (15 missions ?) one time, and the single mission at the Azores and the refuel one several times. And then never again ..

SH3 was a quantum leap, but the same depth charge problem. And SH4. And SH5.

Greetings,
Catfish

Pacific Aces mod for SH2 and Aces Campaign mod was a godsend.

[TheDarkWraith]

I can make the ship AI in SH5 do basically anything I want (to a degree). I could have them skew off course before dropping depth charges to simulate inaccuracy. There just isn't enough flexibility built into the ship AI to do what I want (available function wise). And ship AI is the best AI of all the AI in game :nope:

[Ducimus]

The depth charge problem was fixed with a mod in SH3, and I think in SH4. Why not SH5?

Or has it?

If you mean "pin point accuracy" of depth charges. Yeah. They can be made to be as accurate, or as inaccurate as you want. You just have to adjust a sensor elevation here, a depth precision there, and maybe a sensitivity rating, or possibly a crew rating if you really want to stretch it. Getting rid of pin point drops isn't a one variable adjustment though.

[Bilge_Rat]

I can make the ship AI in SH5 do basically anything I want (to a degree). I could have them skew off course before dropping depth charges to simulate inaccuracy. There just isn't enough flexibility built into the ship AI to do what I want (available function wise). And ship AI is the best AI of all the AI in game :nope:

Accuracy was not really an issue although getting an accurate reading could be. An experienced crew could be deadly. For example, once Johnny Walker's HK group found a U-Boat, it was dead, probably 2 out of 3 times.

For a U-Boat to escape, the escort has to have problem locating it or holding contact. There could be many factors: green escort crews, poor sonar equipemnt (more of a problem in early war years), poor sound conditions (i.e. thermal layers, plentiful sea life, temperature variations, currents, noise), water disruption caused by DC explosion.

So an escort working alone would have a harder time re-acquiring contact since it would lose contact when it dropped the DCs and the ensuing disruption would mask the U-Boat. On the other hand, when you have 2+ escorts working as a group, one can keep a fix on the U-Boat while the other attacks.

A green escort crew would have more trouble locating the U-Boat and would be more likely to drop DCs in a spot where the U-Boat is not. (In SH4, I have been under DC attacks where the AI dropped DCs far from me, but close enough to be heard).

All escorts should have some problem dropping DCs at the correct depth. Determining correct depth of a submarine was a problem during the entire war. (However, I seem to recall that in the SH series, the AI will always drop DCs set at the correct depth?)

Varying sound conditions: finding a U-Boat in the middle of the North Atlantic in winter after a storm is more difficult than in the North sea :arrgh!:. This is probably more of a problem since the underwater sound model in SH is very basic. However, if we had one or more thermal layers at random depth and of random intensity, this would go a long way towards creating the same thing. Would this be possible with a script? :hmmm:

[Sailor Steve]

All the above is true, and don't forget the 'cone of silence'. No active sonar of the period could point down beyond a certain level, so every escort, no matter how accurate the information or how good the crew, was essentially dropping blind. A good u-boat kaleun could take advantage of that by starting his evasion just as he heard the destroyer accelerate into it's attack run.

Walker's major tactic for the hunter/killer groups was to have all six destroyers fan out and comb an area. When one of them picked up the u-boat, he became the 'hunter'. He would match speeds and stay behind the target, guiding the others in on their runs. This way, even when the water was disturbed after a run, he was still in a position to pick up the target all the sooner. And if he couldn't, they just fanned out and started all over again. The u-boat wasn't going very far very fast.

[Jan Kyster]

:hmmm: Captain Frederick Walker...

From "Victoy in The Pacific":

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z15/subject_rod/ScreenShots/WalkersHuntingMethod.jpg


A four-part BBC WW2 People's War -

part 1
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/24/a5024224.shtml
part 2
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/97/a5024297.shtml
part 3
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/32/a5024332.shtml
part 4
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/96/a5024396.shtml


A highly recommended book http://www.amazon.com/Escort-Commander-Originally-Published-Walker/dp/0553126679

[Bilge_Rat]

nice excerpt Jan. I also saw took this one from the links you posted:

Since the outset of the war, it had been generally accepted that escorts would stay close to their charges to ward off U-boat attacks. Walker, then holding the rank of commander, had achieved his successes by ignoring this principle and hunting his victims well away from their quarry. He sank 2 U-boats 40 miles away from the convoy he was protecting. In high places at the Admiralty there were powerful forces at work seeking to brand Walker as a lucky heretic. Only his success and the unqualified backing of Admiral Sir Max Horton, the C in C of Western Approaches, prevented Walker from being posted ashore. While Admiral Horton was in a favourable mood, Walker persuaded him to try a revolutionary theory: Six modern, fast, specially equipped sloops, freed from the fetters of convoy duty, should be given a roving commission to hunt down U-boats in their most vulnerable grounds, the Bay of Biscay, which they crossed when beginning or completing their patrols, and far out in the Atlantic where they surfaced with immunity because the sky was clear of aircraft. In the spring of 1942, Walker took command of the Second Support Group, the first of the new striking forces. From the bridge of Starling, his own sloop, he drilled Wild Goose, Cygnet, Wren, Woodpecker and Kite until they became a team, swinging into action with few orders and no mistakes. The first few weeks were uneventful and gave the crews time to work up, before spending a few days in Iceland prior to leaving on 21st May.

In June, Walker found an opponent worthy of his guile, Kapitänleutnant Gunter Poser, commanding officer of U-202. This U-boat was returning home after a special mission in which it had landed five Nazi agents in the United States on Long Island's Amagansett Beach. (These agents were all captured and executed) (See footnote at base of this page). It was U-202's ninth operational trip of the war, and 27-year-old Poser was a quick-witted, capable captain. U-202 transmitted a long signal while surfaced and the Group homed in on her position in line abreast. On June 13, Poser's officer of the watch sighted mastheads through the periscope and called him to the control room. Poser took over the eyepieces and immediately he thought them as destroyers. He ordered diving stations and within seconds U-202 was down to 500 feet.

The captain turned to the asdic officer and announced his intention to attack. Starling surged forward. The "ping" of the sonar beam echoing from the hull of U-202 coming faster as the range shortened. Then came the order to fire depth charges. Tons of high explosives rolled from the stern rails and shot from throwers on either side of the quarterdeck. Ten charges dropped through the water toward the enemy. For a few seconds there was silence. Then miles of ocean and the waiting sloops quivered as the blasting charges exploded. Huge columns of water boiled to the surface and sprayed up into vast fountains astern of Starling. The great cascades subsided; but of the U Boat there was no sign. Walker settled down to the waiting game. The enemy was proving tough to hold and hard to find.

During exercises, Walker had evolved a form of attack known as Operation Plaster. It called for three sloops steaming in line abreast to roll depth charges off their sterns. Now he ordered Wild Goose and Kite to join Starling, and the three sloops steamed forward dropping a continuous stream of charges, the naval equivalent of an artillery barrage before an infantry attack. The sea heaved and shook under the impact of the explosions. Twisting and turning and always leaving a trail of charges, the ships plastered the area. In three minutes, 86 depth charges had rocked and shaken the attackers almost as much as it had U-202. The U Boat settled deeper and deeper, the control room crew watched the depth gauge. Down to 700. Much more and the submarine would crack under the tremendous pressure. 750. Poser's eyes would have been fixed on the controls, and his mind listening to the creaks and groans reverberating from the straining hull. 800, the engineer officer's will have warned. 850. Poser snapped out his commands: "Level off and keep her trimmed at 800 feet. Steer due north, 3 knots." Far above, Walker was talking to his officers: "No doubt about it. She's gone deeper than I thought possible, and our depth-charge primers won't explode below 600 feet. Very maddening indeed." He grinned and continued: "Well, long wait ahead. Let's have some sandwiches sent up. We will sit it out. I estimate this chap will surface at midnight. Either his air or batteries will give out by then." It was shortly after noon on June 13. By 8 p.m. Poser had taken several evasive turns without result. He could not shake off his tormentors. At two minutes after midnight his air gave out. He ordered reluctantly, "Take her to the surface." Without any audible warning, U-202 rose fast through the water to surface with bows high in the air. Her crew leaped through the conning tower hatch to man her guns, and Poser shouted for full speed in the hope of outrunning the hunters. On Starling's bridge, the tiny silver conning tower was visible in the moonlight. "Star shell...commence," ordered Walker. One turret bathed the heavens with light. Then came a flashing crash of the first broadside from all six sloops laying a barrage of shells around the target. A dull red glow leaped from behind the conning tower of the U-boat. A dimmed lamp blinked from Starling, and firing ceased while Walker increased speed to ram. Then he saw the jagged stump of the conning tower ablaze and shouted in triumph. U-202 was obviously too damaged to escape. He ran alongside, raking her decks with machine-gun fire and firing a shallow pattern of depth charges that straddled the submarine, enveloping her in smoke and spray. Poser clutched the hot periscope column, drew his revolver and shouted a last order: "Abandon ship! Abandon ship!" The cry was taken up and passed through the U-boat. Poser turned to say goodbye to his officers. Rather than be captured, he was taking his own life. At 12:30 a.m. the battle was over - 16 hours after it had begun.



"operation plaster" was a tactic developped by Walker and was first used in action in june 1942. As you see, it also took a group that had trained extensively together.

I wonder if this can be applied to the game, limiting "operation plaster" tactics to veteran+ HK groups after june 1942.

[TheDarkWraith]

the devs tried to implement a 'line abreast' formation into the AI but it doesn't work :nope: Everytime you try to use the function it CTDs the game. This is probably the reason why they commented it out on release. They had good intentions but poor implementation.

[Bilge_Rat]

the devs tried to implement a 'line abreast' formation into the AI but it doesn't work :nope: Everytime you try to use the function it CTDs the game. This is probably the reason why they commented it out on release. They had good intentions but poor implementation.


so how does the "operation plaster" tactic work in IRAI? I saw 5 different types listed in your init.aix file.


OPERATION_PLASTER_HARD = 13;
OPERATION_PLASTER_HARD2 = 14;
OPERATION_PLASTER_SOFT = 15;
OPERATION_PLASTER_SOFT2 = 16;
OPERATION_HK_PLASTER = 17;

I got a good working over from a HK group using your mod v29. In external view, I could see one ship acting as "director" matching my course and speed, sometimes pinging, sometimes just listening, while the rest would run over my position dropping DCs.

[TheDarkWraith]

so how does the "operation plaster" tactic work in IRAI? I saw 5 different types listed in your init.aix file.



I got a good working over from a HK group using your mod v29. In external view, I could see one ship acting as "director" matching my course and speed, sometimes pinging, sometimes just listening, while the rest would run over my position dropping DCs.

That's how Operation Plaster works now in SH5. Since I couldn't get the line abreast to work I did the next best thing. Current version is now v0.0.30 BTW.

[Catfish]

Hello,

with 3-4 hunters really knowing what they do (like Walker) few boats stood a chance for sure in 1944 and '5.
However there are a few errors or misconceptions in the BBC texts, one of it being that even if you heard a distant escort pinging you would still hear the other "slow" sloop cruising right above you, and you will also hear the splash of the charges that tell you what is going to come.

And remember the sloop may not be too slow, otherwise it will tear off its own stern when dropping the charges .. a starting attack run IS being heard in a sub, even without hydrophones.

As well a U-boat was faster than sloops or corvettes, so once surfaced and out of gun reach it would be able to escape - as long as there is no real destroyer capable of 20+ knots in the hunter group.

In the link i posted about ASDIC it also shows that the escort ships of the convoys did not spend much time to hunt a U-boat, they had to stay by the convoy and often did not have the training the hunter groups had.
Their experience certainly grew with the war ..

A U-boat being forced to dive was usually out of the fight for hours, if it ever caught up again with the convoy at all - this alone was a victory for the escort.


Now that i have met Walker personally at least 4 times already in 1939 along with his MkIV eyeballs being well able to see from thousands of meters (in 50 meters visibility due to fog, night and storm) the next time i hope to run about another chap who is not that perfect yet :shifty:
:rotfl2:


Greetings,
Catfish


P.S. Very interesting to read even the plaster methods have been thought of by the dev team, they obviously know their stuff, but similarly obviously did not have enough time to implement this stuff. So as far as i have understood all kinds of detection can be changed, even thze crews getting tired, but tthe AI itself is not changeable ?
But then this is not bad at all since it would reflect the real thing .. just leave out the special techniques in the early times - possible ?