Gaza aid flotilla raid: Turkey criticises Israel report

[Gerald]

Turkey has condemned an Israeli inquiry that said the Israeli navy acted lawfully during a deadly raid on an aid flotilla trying to reach Gaza last May.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the report had neither value nor credibility.

The raid, in which nine Turkish activists were killed, attracted widespread international condemnation.

A separate UN inquiry last year said the navy had shown an "unacceptable level of brutality".

The military operation severely strained relations with Ankara - a long-time ally of Israel.

The 300-page Turkel Committee report found the actions of the Israeli navy in the raid and Israel's naval blockade of Gaza were both legal under international law.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12262617

Note: 23 January 2011 Last updated at 16:09 GMT

[MH]

Turkey has condemned an Israeli inquiry that said the Israeli navy acted lawfully during a deadly raid on an aid flotilla trying to reach Gaza last May.............


What else could they do.:damn:

[Skybird]

No surprise, Turkey is falling back into fundamentalist regime more rapidly then even I have feared. Currently their military and its constitutional role in protecting secularism against religion is being castrated by a huge AKP-led campaign. The judges will be the next (and last) hurdle to be brought to a fall by the fundamentalists. With these last two opponents being overwhelmed and brought under fundamentalist control, there is no escape anymore.

Forget Turkey.

I saw this coming since many years, and said so since many years. My last stay in Tuzrkey was in the mid-90s. Even back then the writing already was on the wall, especially in the rural areas - where the AKP became strong and that it now totally dominates.

Latest Wikileaks news:

Cables reveal that Israel considers Turkey to be lost a lost "partner" for the West, and American diplomats agree, saying that Erdoghan hates Israel with all his will and dreams of a neoi-ottoman dominance in Europe and in the region. A further dramatic radicalisation of Islam in Turkey is expected by both. Turkey, having aligned with Iran recently, more or less openly supports the Hamas (an Iranian proxy) and raises fundings for it.

The Palestinian government is totally pissed by the Turks. (!!!)

link (http://www.welt.de/politik/specials/wikileaks/article12253864/Israel-haelt-die-Tuerkei-fuer-verloren-fuer-den-Westen.html)

( http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1579013 )


It seems also that Turkey lets weapon deliveries for Al Quaeda pass, I read yesterday and today.

In America they worry about Assange and compare him to Bin Laden? They better should speak out against neo-ottoman emperor Erdoghan I. and the AKP.

[Jimbuna]

I personally agree with the reports findings but nor am I suprised.

[gimpy117]

besides, even if you didn't attack first what do you expect??!!

you don't just run a military blockade and expect everybody to be all honkey dory about it. These people were shooting ROCKETS at Israel. Since much of Palestine i wager supports hamas, i would say that they are the enemy. Letting food and other supplies not only feeds supporters of Hamas, it feeds Hamas itself proper. Britain would never have dreamed of letting food ships into Germany During the blitz when the Nazis were shooting rockets at them...so why are the Israelis supposed to allow this?

But I also get the feeling turkey is becoming more and more fundamentalist. I really hope they don't get into the EU

[Gerald]

Turkey and the EU, not a good combination, the country has many problems and is likely to remain unresolved for a long time.

[MH]

Turkey and the EU, not a good combination, the country has many problems and is likely to remain unresolved for a long time.

When you combine EU problems and Turky's they just might meet somewhere in the middle.:)

[Gerald]

The speculation, whether it was a speculation, that I do not buy, but would agree that the EU has problems, and many bureaucratic those unfortunately

[Tribesman]

you don't just run a military blockade and expect everybody to be all honkey dory about it.
Military blockade????
It was a customs issue.

Letting food and other supplies not only feeds supporters of Hamas, it feeds Hamas itself proper. Britain would never have dreamed of letting food ships into Germany During the blitz when the Nazis were shooting rockets at them...so why are the Israelis supposed to allow this?


What a strange statement. Leaving aside the complete mix up of situations and laws you are making the best response is.....
The Israelis are supposed to allow this because the Israelis are supposed to allow this and have signed up to the laws that says they are supposed to allow it.
If they don't want to allow it then they must officaly abandon the laws and become an openly declared pariah state.

[Skybird]

Letting food and other supplies not only feeds supporters of Hamas, it feeds Hamas itself proper.

Not to mention that much of what was labelled as "food" indeed was construction material and concrete - with Hamas known to massively build a bunker network in the Gaza strip. ;)

How loving and care-taking the Turks and the donators to this human aid expedition have been, one can also see in that all medical drugs that were included (like the other stuff just thrown in to the ship'S comoartzment, in chaos), had their expiration dates already run out - by 2 years and more. Much of the food was not to be consummed anymore, too, also expired since long time. In other words: the ship's official load was just a foul alibi. The construction material was meant to assists Hamas' military network. Israel allows food into gaza, but constzruction maeriual and any luxurious food that could boost morale (chips and chocolate for example), are banned.

Nevertheless, if you have the money, you can live a luxurious life in Gaza. There is almost nothing you cannot buy, from luxury food to high tech. It's just that only the richest elite and the Hamas functionaries can afford most of that stuff. The ordinary population cannot.

Israel has replaced most of the food at iuts own cost, and then transported it to Gaza - where it was rejected by Hamas. Hamas needs no fed, comfrotable population. It needs a hungry, suffering and hatefilled population with despair and anger in their hearts. Only suffering eyes win the propaganda war in world media,. only angry people tolerate Hamas' tyrannic regime that is not shy of sacrificing its own people - and most of them not voluntarily.

And I recall that Israel claimed to have found weapons, too. No surprise - they came under fire and attack when boarding the ship, being moved on by a mob with the intention to kill.

[Tribesman]

Not to mention that much of what was labelled as "food" indeed was construction material and concrete
Materials which the Red Cross had been been begging for as vital humanitarian aid ever since the civilian infrastructure was wrecked.

Hamas needs no fed, comfrotable population. It needs a hungry, suffering and hatefilled population with despair and anger in their hearts.
So the blocking of shipments helps the terrorists, what a sensible policy to persue.:doh:

And I recall that Israel claimed to have found weapons, too.
That is correct, Israel did claim that.
Can you recall that claim managed to stand up to about two minutes of scrutiny before it collapsed?:yeah:

[MH]

Military blockade????
It was a customs issue.


What a strange statement. Leaving aside the complete mix up of situations and laws you are making the best response is.....
The Israelis are supposed to allow this because the Israelis are supposed to allow this and have signed up to the laws that says they are supposed to allow it..
Israel does what is best for its interest.
Should we ask Irish or hammas whats good for us.
I haven't seen you criticizing hammas even onece-don't you agree that its extremist Islamic terror organization that has no respect for international law?



If they don't want to allow it then they must officaly abandon the laws and become an openly declared pariah state.
Common cut this crap you must be really anti...you dig to hard to back up your false perceptions of Israel.
If you are so concerned about Palestinians in Gaza just keep the supplies coming through Israeli ports instead of breaking blockade.
The later it seems serves people like you better.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Turkey and the EU, not a good combination, the country has many problems and is likely to remain unresolved for a long time.


I agree. The stubborness of Islam when it comes to international or even national....or regional...or munincipal...or civil unions could only be problematic for the EU, and the EU doesn't need any more problems than it already has.

[Skybird]

and the EU doesn't need any more problems than it already has.
It has no problems - it IS the problem. Due to its structural design and new agenda since German reunification, changing its intention dramatically from a federation of sovereign, cooperating states, towards a federal state run by a cynical carricature of "democracy".

Destroy it, make room for a new effort, start from scratch. And destroy the lobbies and oligarchies in European states first, else it is doomed from restart on to just fail once again. Reforming it they claim since decades - always moving from bad to worse that way. Single good decisions and changes here and there are nice, but do not compensate for the overall damage being done. The good is far too little, the bad is ways too much.

This restart will not be accievable without painful changes and losses. But the pain and loss from staying with how it is and moves on, is even greater.

[Jimbuna]

This restart will not be accievable without painful changes and losses. But the pain and loss from staying with how it is and moves on, is even greater.

I reckon the only way the EU would be dismantled now would be as a consequence of a war between member states/nations and nobody in their right mind should want to see that happen.

Another possibility might be as a result of member states/nations leaving one by one because of the affordability issues economically and monetary but I should imagine bail outs will become much more common practice in the future.

[Gerald]

It has no problems - it IS the problem, is purely rhetorical, Turkey's problem is partly about religion and human rights, which in itself is not a novelty, then there is a long list of what the country needs to control up to become a "pure" but one entry into the EU is extremely remote

[UnderseaLcpl]

It has no problems - it IS the problem. Due to its structural design and new agenda since German reunification, changing its intention dramatically from a federation of sovereign, cooperating states, towards a federal state run by a cynical carricature of "democracy".



I know that, Sky. I've always argued against federalization of states for that reason.

The problem is that if you destroyed and rebuilt it, it would end up the same way. A federal power structure is like a universal equation; no matter what variables you plug in, it will always end up the same way. Centralization of power has only one possible outcome - power in the hands of those most inclined to wield it.

[Skybird]

I know that, Sky. I've always argued against federalization of states for that reason.

The problem is that if you destroyed and rebuilt it, it would end up the same way. A federal power structure is like a universal equation; no matter what variables you plug in, it will always end up the same way. Centralization of power has only one possible outcome - power in the hands of those most inclined to wield it.
That's why I am against unregulated economies as well, and leaving it to the market.

And what you say, is not only true for federations of states, or federal states, but one-body-states as well. Or governments of too big communal subunits within a national state.

What has led me in the past to saying that democratic principles only can avoid raising power monopoles of always the same class/elite/oligarchy and lobby rulerships, the smaller they are. They fail in this, the bigger they are.

In the end, whom the electorate votes for, is not so important. That it is given the information - instead of being manipulated and being excluded from information like it is today - and power to keep economy interest and politician's interest strictly separate, and that the single citizen can completely oversee all what happens within the communiy and realsis all conseqeunces of the one'S deeds onto all the others, and that priviliges for current rulers are not granted any decision-makers are no longer excluded from the conseqeunces of their decison so that they cannot differ between their own interest and the communal interest anymore - these things would be vital.

Ecologically, world population is too big. Politically, our states and communites are to big. They are ungovernable through democratic means by their mere size.

Much of what policies and diplomacy are about, is hiding and raising smoke screens so that the elctorate cannot see the realy deals. That'S why I support the Wikileaks idea in principle - because to me the trustworthiness of policy-making is about transparency, and free flow of information from and to everybody, everywhere. Only then decision-makers cannot form special deals anymore. Bribery and corruption can be tackled. Power abuse by elected people, and whole govenrments be avoided. Intel insiders point out that most of that business is about controlling the information available to own population. In other words: deception of the population'S own power elites' acting.

Transparency would render the whole diplomatic service useless. Because diplomacy is not about giving the other information, but hiding it from him.

[Tribesman]

Israel does what is best for its interest.

Given the dire results it gains and the counter productive achievements it wins that is highly laughable.

Should we ask Irish or hammas whats good for us.

Pardon?

I haven't seen you criticizing hammas even onece-
Thats a perception problem on your part.

don't you agree that its extremist Islamic terror organization that has no respect for international law?

So what?

Common cut this crap you must be really anti...you dig to hard to back up your false perceptions of Israel.

Thats a strange thing to say, can you point to anything false in what I have written?

If you are so concerned about Palestinians in Gaza just keep the supplies coming through Israeli ports instead of breaking blockade.

Which blockade?
Is that the "legal" one that Israel has had to repeatedly alter under protest as it found again and again to be in violation of international law?

The later it seems serves people like you better.
People like me??????
Really:haha:
It could very easily and accurately be said that it is the people who blindly support Israel and attempt to excuse everything the state does who are the people which are the real enemies of the State as they are the ones who support some rather lunatic policies and actionswhich are very harmful to the good of the state and its future viability.

[MH]

It could very easily and accurately be said that it is the people who blindly support Israel and attempt to excuse everything the state does who are the people which are the real enemies of the State as they are the ones who support some rather lunatic policies and actionswhich are very harmful to the good of the state and its future viability.

Says who you?
Oh i get it...we must prove our viability to YOU first by proving we have suicidal tendencies.
Just great. No thnx
The what you might call lunatic polices are the ones that actually work around here.(not sure what you talk about tho)
I'm sure you are the expert on proper polices Israel should apply.

BW
Have you seen how PA is discredited by hammas and their friends on AL Jazira leaks.

[Tribesman]

Says who you?

Your military.:know:

[MH]

Your military.:know:
....................?

[UnderseaLcpl]

That's why I am against unregulated economies as well, and leaving it to the market.

I fear monopolies as much as you do, but a private monopoly still gives you the freedom to choose. There is always someone willing to fill the unsatisfied demand, notwithstanding overwhelming public demand that such a thing be brought down.


And what you say, is not only true for federations of states, or federal states, but one-body-states as well. Or governments of too big communal subunits within a national state.

I agree. This is why I argue for the empowerment of small government, and the realization of the rights of individuals. The individual is the most basic unit of any social organization, and therefore, with respect to individual rights, the only true basis for government.


What has led me in the past to saying that democratic principles only can avoid raising power monopoles of always the same class/elite/oligarchy and lobby rulerships, the smaller they are. They fail in this, the bigger they are.


Again, I agree. Everyone has the right to self-determination. I think that our system of government should reflect this, and I think a limited government best enables this principle. Every system of government conceived thus far has failed in that aspect.


In the end, whom the electorate votes for, is not so important. That it is given the information - instead of being manipulated and being excluded from information like it is today - and power to keep economy interest and politician's interest strictly separate, and that the single citizen can completely oversee all what happens within the communiy and realsis all conseqeunces of the one'S deeds onto all the others, and that priviliges for current rulers are not granted any decision-makers are no longer excluded from the conseqeunces of their decison so that they cannot differ between their own interest and the communal interest anymore - these things would be vital.

I think I'm missing some vital points of your argument, here. Please allow me some time to translate it back into German and then interpret it in English.

Ecologically, world population is too big. Politically, our states and communites are to big. They are ungovernable through democratic means by their mere size.
That's lazy thinking, Sky.


Much of what policies and diplomacy are about, is hiding and raising smoke screens so that the elctorate cannot see the realy deals. That'S why I support the Wikileaks idea in principle - because to me the trustworthiness of policy-making is about transparency, and free flow of information from and to everybody, everywhere. Only then decision-makers cannot form special deals anymore. Bribery and corruption can be tackled. Power abuse by elected people, and whole govenrments be avoided. Intel insiders point out that most of that business is about controlling the information available to own population. In other words: deception of the population'S own power elites' acting.


I can't really comment on this. I agree that public availability of information is an ultimately beneficial thing, but I also hate to see the fallen judged in such a light. I have a conflicted opinion on this.

Might I bother you to type it in German so I could re-translate it?


Transparency would render the whole diplomatic service useless. Because diplomacy is not about giving the other information, but hiding it from him


I agree, but how do you get from here to there without the creation of an international state? We are agreed upon the inefficacy of making one state out of many, so how would we ever achieve such a thing?

[VonHesse]

So Israel's internal review found that israel was in no way at fault, and that all actions were in accordance with international law... Right, and jerrod lee loughner(sp?) plead "not guilty" for the tuscon shooting yesterday. Surprised? I'm not.

[MH]

So Israel's internal review found that israel was in no way at fault, and that all actions were in accordance with international law... Right, and jerrod lee loughner(sp?) plead "not guilty" for the tuscon shooting yesterday. Surprised? I'm not.


Two foreign observers Brig. Gen. Ken Watkin of Canada and Lord David Trimble of Northern Ireland, have both signed off on the report's conclusions.

Jerrord Lee must be then Mossad agent i guess right?

[gimpy117]

to be honest, the Muslims are going to say everything they can to inflate the claims of violence. They will of course paint the victims as "peaceful activists" who are just people trying to support the people of gaza. And maybe to some small extent thats true. But they were also trying to run a MILITARY BLOCKADE. and this food is going to a region that is shooting missiles around the place.

[Skybird]

I fear monopolies as much as you do, but a private monopoly still gives you the freedom to choose.

:har: You are pulling my leg, no doubt.

Monopolies are exactly about preventing choice! Don't tell me you haven't known that!

----

Anyhow, on the topic. The antisemtites of the Turkish fundamentalistic AKP and the extremists of antisemitic, ultranationalistic and not less fundamentalistic Turkish Milli Görus movement have agreed to send a new fleet to Gaza, this time with 50 ships. Originally Milli Görus wanted to lave harbour on the day when it is holocaust remembrance day, but Erdoghan and the AKP, with which Milli Görus is competing in the upcoming elections, made them accepting that the fleet will be launched after the Turkish elections.

The fleet is a propagandistic support mission on behalf of the terrorist death enemy of Israel who wages war against Israel with the declared intention to destroy it. If I were Israel, I would kick the Turkish ambassador out (if there still is one), withdraw my ambassador from Turkey (if there still is one, I admit I do not know), and let everybody know that I would treat the fleet as an official declaration of war of Turkey against Israel. I then would lay a minebelt around the 6 mile zone offshore of Gaza and let every Turkish blockade runner run on them,

So much for the bad news. The good news is that the idea that Turkey could ever accepted into the EU becomes more and more hilarious, and that this step cannot be rationally defended anymore. You can only defend it in explicit ignorration of Turkey hostile nature - Which the left uses to do, becasedu it is deeply antisemitic itself.

And to the movies:

the second part of the Turkish hate-opera "Im Tal der Wölfe", entitled "Palästina", has been officially banned in Germany due to its explicit anti-Jewish racism and antisemitism. The first part already was like that and raised controversial reactions amongst alienated Germans (while the Turkish audience in Germany applauded it). The second part is said to be even more vitriolic and hate-dripping. One critic who seems to be related to the panel making the decision, said on radio that the also banned infamous Nazi propaganda movie "Jud Süß" is like a children's bedtime story in comparison.

[Tribesman]

....................?
Its very simple MH. What part of "your military" don't you understand?
Is it just that you are in denial of the problems they regularly highlight just like you keep on being in denial about the problems Israel faces from within?


and this food is going to a region that is shooting missiles around the place.
This food is going to a place full of people:doh:
The missiles are irrelevant. Israel has an obligation, the blockade was in violation of that obligation.

[MH]

Its very simple MH. What part of "your military" don't you understand?
Is it just that you are in denial of the problems they regularly highlight just like you keep on being in denial about the problems Israel faces from within?


You try to make impression of someone well informed but when challenged its always those fuzzy answers.
BW
Im well aware of Israeli internal problems but they are not as dire as you might like them to be...just because you read Haaretz it doesn't mean that you are well informed.
It just means you red most likely but not necessarily far left opinion.
I'm leftist on many internal issues but haaretz sometimes is taking it to a whole new level with its hysteria and antagonism.
You also must be aware then that those internal problems have little to do with foreign policy since the parties involved are quite neutral on this issue-thats way its convenient to have them in coalition for left or right.

[Tribesman]

You try to make impression of someone well informed but when challenged its always those fuzzy answers.

Thats because I expect you to think yourself, I only prod you along to explore the topic. And to be fair you do tend to eventually look properly.

But.....
just because you read Haaretz it doesn't mean that you are well informed.

......You do make some rather foolish assumptions on occasion.

It just means you red most likely but not necessarily far left opinion.

Whats wrong with the Israeli settler/zionist(different flavours) and far right publications? Don't you read them too?

Though what you might find pretty handy for news views and reports from and about the Israeli military is the Israeli military:hmmm:
Amazing isn't it, whoda thunk the IDF would be on the web just like the government is:up:

You also must be aware then that those internal problems have little to do with foreign policy
One problem you must understand is that without resolution distinction between foriegn and internal policies are very blurred, which in this case in hand is what makes the legality issues far more complex.

[MH]

You do make some rather foolish assumptions.


Whats wrong with the Israeli settler/zionist(different flavours) and far right publications? Don't you read them too?

Though what you might find pretty handy for news views and reports from and about the Israeli military is the Israeli military:hmmm:
Amazing isn't it, whoda thunk the IDF would be on the web just like the government is:up:

Please link?

[MH]

Whats wrong with the Israeli settler/zionist(different flavours) and far right publications? Don't you read them too?

.

I don't know about the publications but ideologically speaking most of them are ready to return to 67 borders for truly peaceful solution.
I just know those guys from evry day life.
But still i guess one prefers to cling to few extreme to back the point.

[Tribesman]

I don't know about the publications but ideologically speaking most of them are ready to return to 67 borders for truly peaceful solution.

Thats a sticking point, especially with the extremes and across the board when it comes to Jerusalem itself.

But still i guess one prefers to cling to few extreme to back the point.
No, the point is to view both extremes as well as all the middle, after all its the extremes which are the problem and in both Israeli and PA elections its been the nuts who swing the balance.

Please link?
Try IDF.
or doverIDFil

[MH]

No, the point is to view both extremes as well as all the middle, after all its the extremes which are the problem and in both Israeli and PA elections its been the nuts who swing the balance.

So you are saing that nuts are in power in Jerusalem and in West Bank?
At least you agree with al jazira.
Its not that i'm in favor of current government here but you taken it a bit to extreme as always.


Try IDF.
or doverIDFil

I still don't understand what info should i look for to back up your claims-is this again this read between the lines thingy.
Point me to the right lines at least and tell me what theological interpretation should i look for.

[Tribesman]

So you are saing that nuts are in power in Jerusalem and in West Bank?

And Gaza of course plus Tel Aviv as the status of Jerusalem is not recognised much.

Point me to the right lines at least and tell me what theological interpretation should i look for.
Where would you like to start?
Expense, recruitment, retention, exemption?
Over stretch, over commitment, unrealistic objectives?
Its nothing new, its the same problems since the 70s though over the past 20 years they have got a lot worse.

BTW can you see the obvious faults in the findings of the Turkel report? It is a very very basic flaw.

[MH]

...............status of Jerusalem is not recognised much.
.

...........that doesn't let me sleep at night.
Israel just waits for Irish republic to recognize Jerusalem as its capital.
We rally do still do.

[Tribesman]

We rally do still do.
Oh dear, you ain't thinking are you.

Repeated lobbying on the subject all over the world still hasn't got the result they want though has it, though Israel did manage to get America to eventually vote on having an embassy there......not actually have one but vote to have one.
So your "we don't care" line is shown to be complete rubbish by the actions of your nation as you have been begging around the world for decades to have that claim recognised.
You really have a habit of falling apart when you do your knee jerk defence of Israel, which is a shame as you ain't Dimitrius.

[MH]

Oh dear, you ain't thinking are you.

Repeated lobbying on the subject all over the world still hasn't got the result they want though has it, though Israel did manage to get America to eventually vote on having an embassy there......not actually have one but vote to have one.
So your "we don't care" line is shown to be complete rubbish by the actions of your nation as you have been begging around the world for decades to have that claim recognised.
You really have a habit of falling apart when you do your knee jerk defence of Israel, which is a shame as you ain't Dimitrius.

Israelis got tired of justifying everything to world opinion specially the impotent EU.
I do not fall apart simply there nothing to defend.
Israel is here to stay Jerusalem is its capitol as London is UKs and its none of your business.

[Tribesman]

I do not fall apart simply there nothing to defend.

You fall apart because you cannot defend it.
Israel is here to stay Jerusalem is its capitol as London is UKs and its none of your business.
Israel isn't there to stay unless it gets established recognised borders, currently it lacks them. After all a State is defined by its borders isn't it
Jerusalem is not its recognised capital if it is not its recognised capital.
It is sui generis so it certainly isn't.
London is the UKs capital as it is recognised as the capital and that is not a matter of dispute which is why usual practices of international diplomacy follow in London where they don't in Jerusalem.
The very fact that it is purely about international diplomacy shows your "none of your business" statement to be nonsense.

[MH]

You fall apart because you cannot defend it.

.
No there is nothing to defend.
Israel is not part of your pathetic EU.
Israel has its goals and its intrests you may like it or not.
I live in this unrecognized capital quite happily with or without the favor.

[Tribesman]

Israel is not part of your pathetic EU.

Interesting.
What have I said that makes you think slagging the EU will have any impact?
It does rather reek of desperation on your part.


I live in this unrecognized capital quite happily with or without the favor.
That's better, "I" instead of "we", you sort of learnt you cannot make the "we" claim as it falls apart instantly, though still have a problem seeing that your defence of issues falls apart in that manner as you are unable to distinguish between yourself and your state, your views, its views and other citizens views.

[MH]

Interesting.
What have I said that makes you think slagging the EU will have any impact?
It does rather reek of desperation on your part.
.
What ever.
Im just not for running in circles.



That's better, "I" instead of "we", you sort of learnt you cannot make the "we" claim as it falls apart instantly, though still have a problem seeing that your defence of issues falls apart in that manner as you are unable to distinguish between yourself and your state, your views, its views and other citizens views.
What exactly fell apart.
I did not claim anything did not try to explain anything to you.
As far as i can tell you are just some antagonist.
As such there is no point in explaining anything.

Don't forget answering something like
"You call me antagonist because your claims fall apart":damn:

[Penguin]

I've read parts of the report, I can't find many inconsistencies. I wonder how many who shout: "biased!, forged!, all its creators were paid by the israeli government!, et cetera" have actually read it. Here's the report in english: http://www.turkel-committee.gov.il/content-107.html
There is also a summary available under this link. Especially the pages 45-90 are extremely interesting, they deal with international (humanitarian) law and the naval blockade. On a side note it is also interesting is also that a WW2 style total blockade would not be allowed today under international law - ok, as if it would have hindered Adolf & friends...

There were 2 mistakes Israel did:
1. they approached the flotila too early - this gave critic's the claim: "illegal! international waters!, bla bla bla..."
2. The commandos who entered the ships were military special forces, better would have been forces who were more experience in riot/crowd control

I would like to see a report from the flotilla's perspective in this size. Especially I am looking for the answer to one question: Why the f. did the boats refuse to enter the port of Ashgod if their intention was bringing goods to the people of Gaza and not only to make propaganda?

This is the whole point: Israel is not only in an armed conflict with Hamas, it is also fighting a propaganda war - the latter is much harder to win. The media doesn't seem too eager to show pictures of trucks with goods driving into the Gaza strip, the shouters and screamers get much more air time.

I don't care if someone thinks I am a blind supporter of Israel. Some 20 years ago my opinion was nearly 180° around. It was the time of the first intifada. I also became influenced by the pictures of kids with stones versus tanks. So my opinion was very anti-zionist - in the real meaning, not like many people who cover their anti-semitism behind anti-zionism. With the years I learned much more about the conflict. It was not so much Israel's point of view which turned me around - their arguments didn't really change much, but my ears became more open for their cause. It was mostly the behaviour of the arab side which made me change my opinion.

Anyway: welcome back from the brig Tribesman - though our opinions seem to differ much in this topic

[Tribesman]

What ever.

Lame

Im just not for running in circles.

It is what you are doing and what you are supporting, which suggests that you do like it and your country likes it which is why you are still stuck with decades old issues with no progress at all

What exactly fell apart.

Nearly every point you made.
I did not claim anything did not try to explain anything to you.

You made several claims, the majority of them fell apart.

I've read parts of the report, I can't find many inconsistencies.
The main problem with the report is over the nature of the conflict and the status of the territory, which of course leads to the problem of which laws apply.
The secondary problem is the legality of the blockade in the first place, that has been partially recognised by Israel in several of their amendements to the blockade which were violating international law by blocking humanitarian aid.
The report skims over those which is why it is questionable, after all it would legitimise Hamas and their claims wouldn't it.

On a side note it is also interesting is also that a WW2 style total blockade would not be allowed today under international law
Gimpy made that mistake at the beginning of the topic, laws change and after the scale of war crimes during WWII lots of laws changed or were introduced.

There were 2 mistakes Israel did:

I disagree on the second point, special forces were best for what was being attempted.
Plus add a third which came out at the time, in that the raid didn't get the political approval it was supposed to recieve before it was launched.

Especially I am looking for the answer to one question: Why the f. did the boats refuse to enter the port of Ashgod if their intention was bringing goods to the people of Gaza and not only to make propaganda?

Because it was a propoganda exercise, and it worked far better than they could have hoped.
Israel came out with their own propoganda much of which was laughable, they should be much better at it by now.

Anyway: welcome back from the brig Tribesman - though our opinions seem to differ much in this topic
Do they?

[MH]

It is what you are doing and what you are supporting, which suggests that you do like it and your country likes it which is why you are still stuck with decades old issues with no progress at all


So tell me what you have in mind.
How you propose to solve the issues?


Nearly every point you made.

You made several claims, the majority of them fell apart.

I did not claim anything or tried too lol.



The report skims over those which is why it is questionable, after all it would legitimise Hamas and their claims wouldn't it.


So is it good thing or bad?



I disagree on the second point, special forces were best for what was being attempted.
Plus add a third which came out at the time, in that the raid didn't get the political approval it was supposed to recieve before it was launched.

My god....really...


Because it was a propoganda exercise, and it worked far better than they could have hoped.
Israel came out with their own propoganda much of which was laughable, they should be much better at it by now.

You contradict your self here......


Israel never was good at the propaganda thingy.
Lying to every one is not our cup of tea it seems.


The main problem with the report is over the nature of the conflict and the status of the territory, which of course leads to the problem of which laws apply.
The secondary problem is the legality of the blockade in the first place, that has been partially recognised by Israel in several of their amendements to the blockade which were violating international law by blocking humanitarian aid.
The report skims over those which is why it is questionable, after all it would legitimise Hamas and their claims wouldn't it.


The issue is that Gaza is run by partly elected by Palestinians partly won by force government.
The government in fact is a extremist Islamic terror organization.
They oppose any compromise with Israel they oppose PA and work to undermine Palestinian Authority in west bank.
They bombed Israel for 8 years and UN did nothing=where the hell was international low then?
When Israel decided to put end to those bombing we been accused of killing civilians.
It was expected thats one of the reason for the long wait.
Israel must always prove to the world that it has restrains while terrorist because they are terrorist is expected of them nothing.
While we try to blockade them so that would be no need to kill civilians or got forbit terrorist we break international laws.
So who cares what international low says when EU twist it so suit its needs.
The twisted reality is too hard to grasp for average EU citizen anyway.
Is it maybe that EU is afraid of Islamic demonstrations on its streets?

[Tribesman]

I did not claim anything or tried too lol
wow the 3rd page and you havn't made any claims?
that is as laughable as the megaphone project.

So is it good thing or bad?

It weakens the validity of the report and its claims, if the report is weak and of questionable validity then it is bad.

My god....really...

So you have nothing to say.
Well done.

You contradict your self here......

There is no contradiction.

Israel never was good at the propaganda thingy.

Thats strange, they have had some great results over the years.

Lying to every one is not our cup of tea it seems.
:har::har::har::har::har::har:
The rush jobs are always so ridiculous they fall apart quickly, when it puts the work in to it its as good at lying as any other govt.

[MH]

wow the 3rd page and you havn't made any claims?
.
No ...i have a flew and just passing time at home on internet.
That why i even bother to answer you.

[Tribesman]

No ...
As that simpy isn't true that makes you a liar doesn't it.
Well done

BTW I like your edit, are those more claims you are not making?
Damn, several of those claims you clearly didn't make also fall apart instantly.

[MH]

As that simpy isn't true that makes you a liar doesn't it.
Well done

Good point.

[Penguin]

The main problem with the report is over the nature of the conflict and the status of the territory, which of course leads to the problem of which laws apply.
The secondary problem is the legality of the blockade in the first place, that has been partially recognised by Israel in several of their amendements to the blockade which were violating international law by blocking humanitarian aid.
The report skims over those which is why it is questionable, after all it would legitimise Hamas and their claims wouldn't it.


please quote with the names included, otherwise it becomes terrible confusing :06:

That's why I mentioned especially the pages 45-90. I usually struggle with juristic texts in a foreign language, but this is relative easy to read. A brief summary: Israel does not deny that they have an armed conflict with Hamas. The status is that Gaza is not an occupied territoy anymore, since Israel drew his troops out in 2005. So they have no more de-facto control over Gaza, regardless they accept that the 4th geneva convention is valid (page 47)
They also claim that the nature of the conflict is a complex one, and that there are many different positions, but also accept the fact that they are"bound by international humanitarian law" (p. 49) The humanitarian situation is being handled on the pages 64-90.
We are not talking about a siege here, but about a naval blockade, this is a big difference.
So this report makes sense and is conclusive, many positions and also many jurisdictional decisions are being presented. It is not that Israel is a banana republic, their courts are independent.


I disagree on the second point, special forces were best for what was being attempted.
Plus add a third which came out at the time, in that the raid didn't get the political approval it was supposed to recieve before it was launched.


I still think it was a failure of Israel's intelligence agencies, that they didn't get the fact that the ships had their share of fanatics onboard, who would not give in when hey see military, but rather fight back as a mob. They just didn't calculated in so much resistance. And a situation like this is imo better handled by forces who are experienced in riot control.

About the political approval, I am uncertain what you mean. I can't tell you much about Israel's internal situation and the approval of the people about a situation like this prior to the event.
If you mean the approval of the international community: well, it is often that Israel is painted as the bully, regardless how many measures they do to try to avoid unnecessary (civilian) casualties. Remember the situation in 2008 about the operation Cast Lead. How much you could read in the press about leaflets that the IDF dropped prior to attacks and much you could hear about the phosphorous grenades? Of course you can't avoid civilian casualties, especially in an area like Gaza. However one should recognize IDF's efforts in minimizing these, they do a much better job than many other armies in doing so.


Because it was a propoganda exercise, and it worked far better than they could have hoped.


My question was more of a rhetorical nature: of course was the flotilla a propaganda coup. If they would really want to help, there were many ways that are more effective. I agree, the propaganda effect they got was more than they had dreamt of.


Do they?

Well, you didn't state too much of your own opinion yet. I know you want people to think of their own - me either- but it helps a lot to know where your opinion comes from. So what is your take on the whole thing?

[MH]

My question was more of a rhetorical nature: of course was the flotilla a propaganda coup. If they would really want to help, there were many ways that are more effective. I agree, the propaganda effect they got was more than they had dreamt of.


They got their 5 minuets of fame initially.
There are also those that will cling to anything that supports their antagonist views or say that the inquiry was fabricated.

Overall i think the incident showed a true nature of some organizations that try to portrait themselves as innocent peace organization whose sole propose is to fight propaganda war against Israel by manipulating mainly EU public.
It uncovered the hypocrisy of those organization and to some extent the whole Gaza issue.

[Skybird]

Overall i think the incident showed a true nature of some organizations that try to portrait themselves as innocent peace organization whose sole propose is to fight propaganda war against Israel by manipulating mainly EU public.

The Turks - government and Turkish organisations - had a big hand in organising the flotilla from beginning. While propaganda for the EU audience came as a nice side-effect, the main direction they were aiming at from Erdoghan'S and the government's side where the Arab people. By profiling itself as the broker of Palestinian interest and challenging the Israelis, hopefully embarassing them, Erdoghan tried (and tries) to collect support and sympathy from the population in Arab countries, and strenghen Turkey'S influence and the general acceptance for Turkey amongst Arabs (the relations between Turks and Arabs are stressful due to the Ottoman past where the Turkish empire looked down on the Arabs and let them know that it considered Turks to be superior to Arabs)

The flotilla calculation worked well for Erdoghan - both with the Arabs and the Europeans.

His support for Hamas and Hezbollah, his lining up with Iran and calling it a friend, his merely hidden opposition to and suspected sabotaging of Western attempts to contain the Iranian nuclear program, his proliferation of UN- or Western-banned deals with Hezbollah and Iran, and the massive shift in Turkey towards orthodox fundamentalism that the AKP is maintaining, must be seen in this light. Erdoghan sees modern Turkey and himself as the successor to the Ottomans' attempt of becoming dominant not only in Europe, but the oriental region as well, and for that he paves the way by sowing a seed that he hopes will rise acceptance and sympathy for Turkey amongst Arabs. Love for the Palestinian'S fate, has nothign to do with Erdoghan'S mission, but his hate for Israel. When the Palestinians have served their functional purpose, Turkey most likely would let them down like almost all other Arabs did, too, for there is nothing with the Palestinians that is of worth or any kind of potential for anybody, just the promise of future troubles with them. And for Iran, the Palestinians are just a proxy.

The Palestinian government in the West-Jordan-Land, is cursing Erdoghan. They would prefer him being gone better yesterday than tomorrow, for the Hamas in Gaza that Erdoghan supports is hostile to the government in WJL.

However, MH, I see that it is just you and the other. Don't forget to switch off the light once you are done here. ;)

[Tribesman]

please quote with the names included, otherwise it becomes terrible confusing
The following are all yours Penguin, though I must say its rather funny that skybird seem to have an issue with you, did you upset him by calling his racial/religious bigotry akin to the writings in mein kampf?

A brief summary: Israel does not deny that they have an armed conflict with Hamas.
What is the nature of that conflict? Is it an international one between states?

The status is that Gaza is not an occupied territoy anymore, since Israel drew his troops out in 2005.
That status is very questionable, after all what is the actual status of the territory?
Territory of a piece of land in this context includes airspace and where applicable the sea, what is the position on that?

They also claim that the nature of the conflict is a complex one,
It certainly is.
and that there are many different positions
Which is why they need to get definitive anwsers established on the status and nature of the issues before they can even attempt to claim legitimacy under law as they need to apply the correct laws.
In nearly every case there they are basing their "legality" on a dubious premise.
but also accept the fact that they are"bound by international humanitarian law"
And since the time of the incident they have changed their blockade policies because it was breaking that humanitarian law they were bound by.
If it was breaking those laws at the time of the incident then it cannot have been a legal blockade then.

We are not talking about a siege here, but about a naval blockade, this is a big difference.

It is a land, sea and air blockade, this incident just happened to be a maritime one which was a dispute about the land one
About the political approval, I am uncertain what you mean.
There was a big stink in Israel as events went pear shaped, the operation was set up and ready to go but was supposed to get a final go ahead at ministerial level. It went ahead without getting the final approval.

So what is your take on the whole thing?
On the Gaza issue or the whole mess in the formerly mandated territories?

[MH]

There was a big stink in Israel as events went pear shaped, the operation was set up and ready to go but was supposed to get a final go ahead at ministerial level. It went ahead without getting the final approval.


On the Gaza issue or the whole mess in the formerly mandated territosries?

You are one of those nazi ufo conspiracy theory suporters i guess.
You dig so hard to find any flaws so you may have reason for your antagonist ideas.
I wonder what really hides there.

[Penguin]

There are also those that will cling to anything that supports their antagonist views or say that the inquiry was fabricated.

Only people who want to think on their own can be change thier minds. There will always be people who will deny that there is a moon if Israel's astronoms say there is one ;). But even if Erdogan would be convinced that the report makes sense, it would be a political suicide for him if he says so in public.


Overall i think the incident showed a true nature of some organizations that try to portrait themselves as innocent peace organization whose sole propose is to fight propaganda war against Israel by manipulating mainly EU public.
It uncovered the hypocrisy of those organization and to some extent the whole Gaza issue.

I believe that there also were activists with honest intentions on the boats. They must ask themselves however why they jumped into bed with an organization like this. Even before the incident it was known that the ship to gaza organization is not neutral, to understate a little... The people who participated just could have informed themselves beofre.
These people became the usefull idiots to show the credibility of the flotilla.


The following are all yours Penguin, though I must say its rather funny that skybird seem to have an issue with you, did you upset him by calling his racial/religious bigotry akin to the writings in mein kampf?

q??? did I make it on Skybird's ignore list? Don't know. lol if that is true. On some issued I agree with him :up: on others I just smack my head against the wall :damn: I don't care what anybody thinks of me, but I leave the name-calling to others


What is the nature of that conflict? Is it an international one between states?
That status is very questionable, after all what is the actual status of the territory?
...
Territory of a piece of land in this context includes airspace and where applicable the sea, what is the position on that?
...
Which is why they need to get definitive anwsers established on the status and nature of the issues before they can even attempt to claim legitimacy under law as they need to apply the correct laws.
In nearly every case there they are basing their "legality" on a dubious premise.


just read the report, I am not Israel's lawyer, nor do I live there. I just build my opinion about the whole incident.
If you ask 2 experts for international law, you'll get 3 answers, if you ask 2 israeli judges, you'll get 4 :DL. The different point-of-views are all documented in the report
Hamas has the political control over the territory, this is what matters for the Israelis. They are not at war with Gaza, or the palestine territories, but with a terrorist organization that is in political charge and de-facto control over the territory.
But the nature doen't matter in this case. Israek lets goods into gaza. We can discuss if that's enough, or if the wrong good are regarded as contraband. However speaking of starvation of the palestinians or talking about a holocaust in Gaza, seen on demonstrations or heard from arab statements, is not only tasteless but more than wrong :nope: .



And since the time of the incident they have changed their blockade policies because it was breaking that humanitarian law they were bound by.
If it was breaking those laws at the time of the incident then it cannot have been a legal blockade then.


The big problem with the good they let into,is that much stuff can be used for more than one purpose. The example of concrete may be the most obvious, as it can be used for construction of houses and infrastucture as well as for building shelters. Even shelters are dual: they can be used to protect civilians, or to protect fighters or mortar/rocket launchers.
Some stuff may sound crazy on the first look, for example that Israel (had?) allowed no canned food to be shipped into Gaza. But the metal from the cans can also be used for military purposes.
All the reports from international sources that I've seen/read about the situation in Gaza they point to one fact: Hamas gets their hands on the goods first & they organize their distribution. Of course do their supporters get the most, their opponents nothing.


It is a land, sea and air blockade, this incident just happened to be a maritime one which was a dispute about the land one


Point for you, I meant a blockade is not a siege, regardless if it's on land/underwater/in space :O:


On the Gaza issue or the whole mess in the formerly mandated territories?
on both, I wrote a little bit about where I come from on this issue, so did MH, now it's your turn

[Tribesman]

You are one of those nazi ufo conspiracy theory suporters i guess.

Is that a new strain of the flu you have as it appears to have affected your mind.
You dig so hard to find any flaws so you may have reason for your antagonist ideas.

The flaws were obvious, there was no digging needed.
The fact that you won't even look shows that it is you who has the problem, it could best be described as blind belief which is something you earlier ridiculously claimed to avoid.
I wonder what really hides there.
It is you that is trying to hide MH.
You are so desperate to avoid the truth of the issues that you fall back to the rather useless default position which is increasingly meaningless.

On to Penguin
q??? did I make it on Skybird's ignore list?
You must have, after all there is apparently only MH and the other here so you must be the other:up:

On some issued I agree with him :up: on others I just smack my head against the wall
I know, he does raise some good points on some issues, on many though he clearly appears to be certifiable.

just read the report,
And???????
Would you like to go through it piece by piece, after all it might be the best way to show the inconsistancies in its compilation and thus its questionable validity as a definitive report on the legality.
For example.....
What did yo think about the waffle included about the historicalmaritime trade under different situations and how in any way they could be relevant to the issues in hand given the nature of the changing staus the territory has undergone and the difficulty in defining its present status.

If you ask 2 experts for international law, you'll get 3 answers, if you ask 2 israeli judges, you'll get 4
Exactly, and given the admitted lack of input and the existance of other delivered and ongoing reports which also variously lack input it raises questions of the validity of the findings of this report without even looking at it, when you read it the inconsistancies and questions mount at a rather rapid pace.

But the nature doen't matter in this case.
In this case the nature and the status are core to the issue.

We can discuss if that's enough, or if the wrong good are regarded as contraband.
Israel has already made that descision, the crossing when open even at full capacity cannot accomodate the required tonnage and the changes in the restrictions show that they know their definitions of contraband at the time were wrong.
Both those issues show Israel knows the questionable legality of the blockade at the time yet are pretty much skipped over in the report.

However speaking of starvation of the palestinians or talking about a holocaust in Gaza, seen on demonstrations or heard from arab statements, is not only tasteless but more than wrong
So your issue is with some crazy statements made elsewhere.

The big problem with the good they let into,is that much stuff can be used for more than one purpose.
Yes, sugar can be used in very nasty ways, should it be banned?

The example of concrete may be the most obvious, as it can be used for construction of houses and infrastucture as well as for building shelters.
You mean cement. Like the red cross said, you can obtain cement ....at a very very high price from hamas as they are smuggling piles of it into the territory.
Which of course as well as touching on the humanitarian aid angle also comes back to the legality issue regarding effectiveness of the blockade, after all if Hamas is able to maintain their own imported supply and sell on their surplus it means that the effectiveness is not only "not really effective at all" but is also counter productive.

Point for you, I meant a blockade is not a siege
Probably because "siege" is bandied around in the media a lot, rather like your earlier "starvation" instead of malnutrition.
Slightly OT but in relation to another word youmentioned "holocaust", did you see the open letter to Fox news complaining about Murdochs network insuting Jews and diminishing the horror they faced as well as spouting the tired old anti-semitism that everyone hoped would be consigned to history by now?


now it's your turn
Basics, one state or two?
Each has its major benefits and each has its major problems.
The current 3 bits is too much like another partition fiasco from the same time and is in fact a result of what quite frankly must have been one of the dumbest political suggestions of the last century.
But to go on the two state basis as you want to avoid the minority rule problems that came about in that other mandated territory to the North.

Settlements...got to go , making "facts on the ground" makes only one fact, they are illegal and if you want to make a settlement based on legality and claim to be following international law then they have to go without question.
Besides which they are too expensive to maintain, after all thats why the unilateral pull out went ahead in Gaza.
What to do wih the illegal settlers is simple, apply the absentee laws to the huge stock of vacant housing in Israel itself and that will also lower the housing/welfare subsidies and security cost.

Priorites. Syria, biggest problem. Forget Iran for now as Syria is more important to sort. Once again illegal settlements have to go and annexation is illegal since the Nazis fell. Demilitarisation of Golan must be guaranteed with teeth and international pressure must force syria to get rid of its WMDs and guarantee a negotioted equitable agreement on water rights.
Leb, simple screw Hezballah by pulling out of half the remaining village and turn the farms area over to Lebanon, that removes their "legitimate" claims, brings compliance on another issue and pulls the rug from Syria. If you stop feeding the beast it will weaken, keep piling it with fresh food and it gorges. Don't forget that Hez is a product of a proxy war that was the product of a proxy war.

Hamas, heres the bugger, Trimble could have given a few pointers on this. You have to talk to them, you have to make concessions to them and you have to demand concessions from them. Nothing will be achieved otherwise and the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable for all involved.
The same arguements which are now being used against this process are exactly the same arguements which have been used against the same process every time up until the point that they get past the dumb obstinacy and do it.

Would you like to go on to the other States which are still officialy at war with Israel or explore the proposals put forward by the wahibis ?

[Gerald]

A new Turkish action movie based on last year's Israeli commando raid on a Gaza aid ship could further strain Ankara's already frosty relations with Israel.

The film, Valley of the Wolves: Palestine, opens this weekend. It has already stirred controversy for its simplistic portrayal of Israelis as brutal oppressors of the Palestinians.

Nine Turkish citizens were killed in the commando raid, which sparked widespread anger in Turkey.

The movie's opening in Germany, which has a large Turkish community, was delayed by a day while the official film regulator considered how to rate it. Some German politicians have condemned it as anti-Semitic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12306796

Note: 28 January 2011 Last updated at 13:44 GMT

[MH]

You must have, after all there is apparently only MH and the other here so you must be the other:up:




Settlements...got to go , making "facts on the ground" makes only one fact, they are illegal and if you want to make a settlement based on legality and claim to be following international law then they have to go without question.
Besides which they are too expensive to maintain, after all thats why the unilateral pull out went ahead in Gaza.
What to do wih the illegal settlers is simple, apply the absentee laws to the huge stock of vacant housing in Israel itself and that will also lower the housing/welfare subsidies and security cost.

Whole stock of vacant housing in Israel?
Where you take your info from Al Jazira?
The whole issue of territories is about Israeli security.
The "dream" of of settling west bank has no hold in reality for most Israelis and is not the reason for us being there.
Who will guarantee my well benign when If border with PA will run 2 km from my house.
Do you think that maintain this kind of security will be cheaper?
Will the UN and EU intervene when mortal shells and rockets fall on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
Will UN Back Israel if military action style "Cast Lead" will be needed?
All UN can do is talk and send rice to third world coutures while trying to maintain political correctness keeping every one happy.
Can the PA guarantee Israeli security?
Who will guarantee that PA will still be in power tomorrow.
From my point of vew West Bank settelments and Israeli army there are scurity buffer keeping truble away from hart of Israel.
Your thinking is typical European naive way that has no hold in reality.
From my point of view at current state of matters its a suicide.




Priorites. Syria, biggest problem. Forget Iran for now as Syria is more important to sort. Once again illegal settlements have to go and annexation is illegal since the Nazis fell. Demilitarisation of Golan must be guaranteed with teeth and international pressure must force syria to get rid of its WMDs and guarantee a negotioted equitable agreement on water rights.
Leb, simple screw Hezballah by pulling out of half the remaining village and turn the farms area over to Lebanon, that removes their "legitimate" claims, brings compliance on another issue and pulls the rug from Syria. If you stop feeding the beast it will weaken, keep piling it with fresh food and it gorges. Don't forget that Hez is a product of a proxy war that was the product of a proxy war.
?
You have lot of faith in international community but Israeli have less and less.
We simply can not base decisions on faith in international community.
Naive thinking again.
think again.

Hamas, heres the bugger, Trimble could have given a few pointers on this. You have to talk to them, you have to make concessions to them and you have to demand concessions from them. Nothing will be achieved otherwise and the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable for all involved.
The same arguements which are now being used against this process are exactly the same arguements which have been used against the same process every time up until the point that they get past the dumb obstinacy and do it.

Would you like to go on to the other States which are still officialy at war with Israel or explore the proposals put forward by the wahibis ?
You have to talk to hammas?
Hammas ideology can not allow to make any substential compromise worth the paper writen on.
So whats the point.

I really hoped that you would surprise me but its all typical bull.

[Tribesman]

Whole stock of vacant housing in Israel?
Where you take your info from Al Jazira?

You really are on a run with silly assumptions ain't ya, you should perhaps quit while you are still stuck struggling at the starting blocks.
Or don't you realise your government has departments which funnily enough produce data...on strange things like errrrr....housing:doh:

The whole issue of territories is about Israeli security.

Bull, its about land.
Every settlement in the territories requires a buffer for security, then they build out into the buffer which means they need a new buffer for security, then they build out into the new buffer which means they need a new buffer.
Plus of course it needs roads which need their own buffer for security and the buffer needs its own roads for access which require their own buffer for security....thats why the land grabs are such a drain on the finances.
If it was about security they wouldn't permit citizens to move into the zones as it would be courting danger.

The "dream" of of settling west bank has no hold in reality for most Israelis
I refer you back to the earlier statement about the nuts and the disproportianate influence they exert.

Who will guarantee my well benign when If border with PA will run 2 km from my house.

Who will guarantee your well being if you are 40km away?

Will the UN and EU intervene when mortal shells and rockets fall on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Did you read what was written?

Will UN Back Israel if military action style "Cast Lead" will be needed?

I hope not as "cast lead" was a disaster.

Can the PA guarantee Israeli security?

Can Israel guarantee Israeli security?:yawn:

Who will guarantee that PA will still be in power tomorrow.

Are they even in power today?

From my point of vew West Bank settelments and Israeli army there are scurity buffer keeping truble away from hart of Israel.

see above:yawn:

Your thinking is typical European naive way that has no hold in reality.

As your view is by its very nature unsustainable impractical and unjustifiable does that make you naive or european or just detatched from reality?

We simply can not base decisions on faith in international community.
Naive thinking again.
think again.

Your whole existance is dependant on the international community.
Are you so naive or deeply in denial that you can't see it?

You have to talk to hammas?

There is no other viable option.

Hammas ideology can not allow to make any substential compromise worth the paper writen on.

The same as is said throughout history until it is proven wrong again and again.
So whats the point.

Errrrrr....you have no other viable options.

I really hoped that you would surprise me but its all typical bull.
And I really hoped you would think, but you are in typical closed minded lockstep, not quite as bad a Dimitrius was here but not that far off when you scrape the surface.

[MH]

You really are on a run with silly assumptions ain't ya, you should perhaps quit while you are still stuck struggling at the starting blocks.
Or don't you realise your government has departments which funnily enough produce data...on strange things like errrrr....housing:doh:
.
Ufo theories again?
You try to be smart above you intelligence.


Bull, its about land.
Every settlement in the territories requires a buffer for security, then they build out into the buffer which means they need a new buffer for security, then they build out into the new buffer which means they need a new buffer.
Plus of course it needs roads which need their own buffer for security and the buffer needs its own roads for access which require their own buffer for security....thats why the land grabs are such a drain on the finances.
If it was about security they wouldn't permit citizens to move into the zones as it would be courting danger.
.
True...
Thats why IDF and security forces are there.
No setelments no IDF =total anarchy
thriving ground for terrorist.
Sometimes thological thinking is not needed.
.


I refer you back to the earlier statement about the nuts and the disproportianate influence they exert.
.
Israel withdrew from Gaza so their influence while exist is not such big as noisy.


Who will guarantee your well being if you are 40km away?
.
IDF 40 km away.

Did you read what was written?
.
i did

I hope not as "cast lead" was a disaster.
.
Was it?
It says a lot.

Can Israel guarantee Israeli security?:yawn:
.
Israel does its best on its own.

Are they even in power today?
.

They do not so bad compeering to hammas.
All thats way they have lots of enemies in Arab world.


see above:yawn:
.

You are not so smart do you?
Thats exacly it -WAKE UP MAN.


As your view is by its very nature unsustainable impractical and unjustifiable does that make you naive or european or just detatched from reality?.

Impractical......



Your whole existance is dependant on the international community.
Are you so naive or deeply in denial that you can't see it?


If so i prefer to suicide my way.


There is no other viable option.


Says who Tribsman......



And I really hoped you would think, but you are in typical closed minded lockstep, not quite as bad a Dimitrius was here but not that far off when you scrape the surface.

Off course im....i shell try to open my mind to vibes of universe.
BW
Whats between you and Dimitrus.

[Skybird]

The movie's opening in Germany,
Does it!? Last thing I learned about it was that it was officially banned over charges of racism and inflammatory hate propaganda. I mentioned this in one posting here or in another thread.

If they have chnaged their mind, then some lobbies have done a hgreat job again. The first movie already was an insult of human dignity, and hate-dripping racism pure. It painted Israelis as being as bad - if not worse - than Nazi war criminals and doctpors doiung experiments in KZs. From what I heared, the second movie now should be even worse, if that even is possible.

[Tribesman]

You try to be smart above you intelligence.

It is you that is making silly assumptions and you that thinks information released by your government and your military must somehow be from the arab media, that demonstrates plain ignorance of the topic you are making a futile attempt at addressing.


Thats why IDF and security forces are there.
No setelments no IDF =total anarchy
thriving ground for terrorist.

That makes no sense at all.

Israel withdrew from Gaza so their influence while exist is not such big as noisy.

Compare the numbers involved:doh:

IDF 40 km away.

Thats another epic fail on your part, not only do you undermine your own point but you cannot even see why your point made no sense in the first place.

i did

Clearly not.

Was it?

Did Israel achieve its stated objectives?
If thats too hard for ya how about......did Israel achieve its revised objectives after it was failing to achieve its stated objectives?
A simple two letter answer in the form of "no" will be sufficient from you unless you want to lie again:har:

Israel does its best on its own.

:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
You really need a history lesson, start with basic history of Israel 101.

They do not so bad compeering to hammas.
All thats way they have lots of enemies in Arab world.

What has that got to do with the price of cheese?

You are not so smart do you?
Thats exacly it -WAKE UP MAN.


As I said, your views make no sense on that matter.

Impractical......

All three plus naive and detatched from reality.

Says who Tribsman......

All impartial observers and negotiators, if you have a problem with that then it paints yourself for what you are which explains your blindness.

Whats between you and Dimitrus.
What it is is that both you and he have developed that siege mentality which blocks your brain from any real rational thought on the issue, you are in effect spouting the same level of rubbish as the loony fringe in the former mandated territories.

[MH]

It is you that is making silly assumptions and you that thinks information released by your government and your military must somehow be from the arab media, that demonstrates plain ignorance of the topic you are making a futile attempt at addressing.
.
You takings bull again or tried to read between lines again and came up with UFO theory.




Did Israel achieve its stated objectives?
If thats too hard for ya how about......did Israel achieve its revised objectives after it was failing to achieve its stated objectives?
A simple two letter answer in the form of "no" will be sufficient from you unless you want to lie again:har:
.

It definitely brought some peace to southern Israel.


:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
You really need a history lesson, start with basic history of Israel 101.
.
:yeah:


What has that got to do with the price of cheese?
.
You work at dairy?




As I said, your views make no sense on that matter.
.
Told you you are not as smart as you think......





All impartial observers and negotiators, if you have a problem with that then it paints yourself for what you are which explains your blindness.
.

Yes my Guru...




What it is is that both you and he have developed that siege mentality which blocks your brain from any real rational thought on the issue, you are in effect spouting the same level of rubbish as the loony fringe in the former mandated territories.

Its not siege mentality.
Simply building whole scheme of making peace here on strength and magic of UN or EU is simply stupid and naive.
We should simply withdraw because no body like us?
Lets exchange our security for good publicity which usually last until IDF is forced to deal with something.
EU will end all economic relation with Israel tomorrow morning?

Israel can survive here only from position of strength we never will be welcomed here.
As for now arab world becomes more and more radical so good relation with Sweden its not exactly what we need for our survival.

Im actually for two state solution for a different reason even tho i know at hart that Israel will pay big price for it.
I know it will not make us any better in the face of world community and i expect you to come running here complaining that Zionist drop bombs on poor children just because some shmocks fired few little rockets toward downtown Jerusalem.

[Gerald]

Does it!? Last thing I learned about it was that it was officially banned over charges of racism and inflammatory hate propaganda. I mentioned this in one posting here or in another thread.

If they have chnaged their mind, then some lobbies have done a hgreat job again. The first movie already was an insult of human dignity, and hate-dripping racism pure. It painted Israelis as being as bad - if not worse - than Nazi war criminals and doctpors doiung experiments in KZs. From what I heared, the second movie now should be even worse, if that even is possible.According to the article, so it should be, but it will come out in other countries first, and then in Israel, of course

[Tribesman]

You takings bull again or tried to read between lines again and came up with UFO theory.

Your very silly assumptions are there throughout the topic in plain writing by yourself for all to see.

Israel can survive here only from position of strength we never will be welcomed here.

Which is why your views are anti Israel as you support measures which are not only weakening the State but demonstrating the weakness in a very public manner.


It definitely brought some peace to southern Israel.


In a set of questions that can only have one possible answer you balk at facing facts
That shows all that needs to be said, you simply cannot face reality and either avoid issues raised or simply lie and throw about baseless accusations.
Get well soon, that flu must have gone right to the head.

[Gerald]

Does it!? Last thing I learned about it was that it was officially banned over charges of racism and inflammatory hate propaganda. I mentioned this in one posting here or in another thread.

If they have chnaged their mind, then some lobbies have done a hgreat job again. The first movie already was an insult of human dignity, and hate-dripping racism pure. It painted Israelis as being as bad - if not worse - than Nazi war criminals and doctpors doiung experiments in KZs. From what I heared, the second movie now should be even worse, if that even is possible. I think It's a B movie,crap

[Skybird]

According to the article, so it should be, but it will come out in other countries first, and then in Israel, of course
It did start indeed. The ban has been changed into an age 18 movie. Some cinemas whom got offered the movie seem to voluntarily boycot it. It seems it also is shown on none of the major stages here, but in small niche cinemas only.

The scaring thing is that reports from Turkey that where on TV yesterday showed interviews with movie visitors there - and the answers show that most people seem to take it's narration as a documentary fact and say it displays how reality really is.

Well, hate propaganda.

[Gerald]

It did start indeed. The ban has been changed into an age 18 movie. Some cinemas whom got offered the movie seem to voluntarily boycot it. It seems it also is shown on none of the major stages here, but in small niche cinemas only.

The scaring thing is that reports from Turkey that where on TV yesterday showed interviews with movie visitors there - and the answers show that most people seem to take it's narration as a documentary fact and say it displays how reality really is.

Well, hate propaganda. Yes,it sucks....

[Penguin]

The film, Valley of the Wolves: Palestine, opens this weekend. It has already stirred controversy for its simplistic portrayal of Israelis as brutal oppressors of the Palestinians.
.....
The movie's opening in Germany, which has a large Turkish community, was delayed by a day while the official film regulator considered how to rate it. Some German politicians have condemned it as anti-Semitic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12306796


mostly accurate, but there is no "official film regulator" here, lol. Films get rated by the industry themselves, comparing to the mpaa in the US. Their age ratings however are mostly legal binding .


Does it!? Last thing I learned about it was that it was officially banned over charges of racism and inflammatory hate propaganda. I mentioned this in one posting here or in another thread.


When you describe something, make it accurate and not look like films gets banned by a snip of the finger in Germany. I dont know what your sources are, but a ban of the film was not in stated anywhere. The whole thing revolved around the question if the film gets a rating from the german movie rating organization FSK or not.
Please check out the difference between rated 18, not rated, indexed (indiziert), and confiscated (beschlagnahmt). You'll find a good overwiew here: http://www.medienzensur.de/
What you descibe as banned would mean that a movie is violating german laws, and would eventually be forbidden. This means in reality that the movie must not be shown in public, nor that its' distribution is allowed. The posession is still legal, even in the case of being banned.
When a film is not rated, or put on index, it is still possible to watch him in cinema, however no minors and no advertisement would be allowed.


It did start indeed. The ban has been changed into an age 18 movie.


There was no ****ing ban! :damn: How can it change then?
I am very sensitive when it comes to censorship issues, that's why I think it's impoprtant to go with the facts.
And I find it rather odd that the same people who cry "suppression of speech", when it comes to their own opinion are the same people who demand censorship when it comes to other voices... :nope: They want the same laws, which are used against them, to use against opposing views.

[Skybird]

Penguin,

FYI, I took the info on that ban from one of the major German newspapers, though I cannot tell you exactly which one it was. I do a daily scan of the headlines, and if interested the according articles, of Die Welt, FAZ, Tagesspiegel, Focus, Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, Westfälische Nachrichten, Frankfurter Rundschau and occasionally some others, plus a dozen international ones, also some spwecialised sites and blogs and political magazines and economic sites. From any of these German ones the news was coming. It apparently was a mislead news message, okay. I cannot change that, nor am I responsible for it having been wrong. It was not the first time and it will not have been the last time the news said something wrong (and I still cannot say for sure that the ban was not considered in the beginning, and then given up: here in Münster for example one cinema was told to withdraw the movie from its' planned previews: and it did, but the director refused to also take off the posters in the windows, already assuming that the order was in doubt, obviously, this little sidestory I have read in the Westfälische Nachrichten for sure, some days after the news on the ban in the same or any other German paper).

If all this is a problem for you, well, so be it. I just referred to news as was available when I did.

BTW, there are some movies that are not only banned from display and distribution while being legal to own, but that you also may not legally own at all in Germany. The movie "Jud Süss" that I referred to, is such a movie. ;) Such movies are banned not by the Freiwillige Selbstkontrolle, but by authorities ranking higher. The FSK is just a consumer "protection" censorship, no guard to protect criminal laws and constitutional rules.

[Tribesman]

They want the same laws, which are used against them, to use against opposing views.
Thats an issue another poster brings up quite often in relation to Skys posts, roughly ...."you appear to be the very thing which you warn us we must stop"

[Penguin]

The only major newspaper which wrote about a ban was "Die Welt" on January the 25th. http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article12338625/Neue-Gaza-Hilfsflotte-koennte-die-Wahl-entscheiden.html
They quoted the turkish broadcaster NTV who claimed that the film was forbidden. From a german journalist I expect to know his stuff when they write about german laws and do not utter stuff or quote claims without checking out the facts. The turkish NTV journalist obviously was thinking about their own, draconic censorship laws when they fabricated their bs. However this says much the work ethos of both "journalists"
"Die Welt" from the next day stated a more correct version about the film rating: http://www.welt.de/print/welt_kompakt/kultur/article12344610/Tal-der-Woelfe-kommt-nicht-ins-Kino.html - nothing about a ban to read there

Given the fact that we have an international community reading the stuff here, I want correct facts about bans and censorship in Deutschland. Note: I do not say that I approve the film, I share the opinion that it is a dumb flic. It's like learning about Viet Nam from Rambo 2. But I do not believe in forbidding films. The people who will be influenced by it are too stupid to understand any facts about the conflict anyway.

xxxx censorxxxx

[Tribesman]

and I still cannot say for sure that the ban was not considered in the beginning, and then given up: here in Münster for example one cinema was told to withdraw the movie from its' planned previews: and it did, but the director refused to also take off the posters in the windows, already assuming that the order was in doubt, obviously, this little sidestory I have read in the Westfälische Nachrichten for sure, some days after the news on the ban in the same or any other German paper
So that translates as the film wasn't banned but was delayed as it was submitted too late for the review, the previews in cinemas were not shown as they had the old planned release date and the posters remained as they advertised the film but not the old planned release date.:woot:

Thats quite a convoluted way skybird went through with some dodgy claims in what was basicly a small story about a even crappier film version of a crap TV show.

[Penguin]

BTW, there are some movies that are not only banned from display and distribution while being legal to own, but that you also may not legally own at all in Germany. The movie "Jud Süss" that I referred to, is such a movie. ;) Such movies are banned not by the Freiwillige Selbstkontrolle, but by authorities ranking higher. The FSK is just a consumer "protection" censorship, no guard to protect criminal laws and constitutional rules.

good that I am not on you iggy-list :cool:, i enjoy an open exchange of opinions!

The film "Jud Süß" is not illegal to posess. It was forbidden by the allies after the war however, but this is obsolete since the reunification. I do not know about the legal status of posession of the movie pre 1990. What didn't change is the fact that it is not allowed to show it in public without a kind of historic information/education about it. By this it allowed to show it in education facilities for example.
At my work we have lots of forbidden movies in our archives, and we have also broadcasted some pics of them. However we used these images to mock the Nazis, so another law applied in this case (freedom of art & satire). No law suit has stopped our practice till now *knocking on wood*
You are right about the FSK as a consumer/youth protection organisation, but when a movie gets a rating, it cannot be forbidden afterwards. Films with no ratings can be put on the index/banned however. In this case freedom of speech laws get overturned by other laws, for example hate speech laws.

[nikimcbee]

I reckon the only way the EU would be dismantled now would be as a consequence of a war between member states/nations and nobody in their right mind should want to see that happen.

Another possibility might be as a result of member states/nations leaving one by one because of the affordability issues economically and monetary but I should imagine bail outs will become much more common practice in the future.

Where's Napoleon when you need him?

[Penguin]

Where's Napoleon when you need him?

We call him Berlusconi today.

[Skybird]

We call him Berlusconi today.
That Berlusconi that is supposed to buy the Gorch F0ck to turn it into his private hare... I mean his private yacht? :D

The legality of posessing that old movie I know different than you describe it. Well, then so be it. Some months ago there was a German movie made, about the creation of "Jud Süß" (you probablky noted the event), and when it was released, they had some discussion on a third TV program where it also was said that the movie is stored in the national poison safe and that even owning it is illegal.

And my "iggy"-list, nobody is on it for just disagreeing with me. That would be censoring. It is about behavior instead - and violating certain standards of behavior. So putting people on my ignore list is not an issue of censorship of opinions, but of sanctionising them for violating behavioral minimum standards, so that I must not waste time and energy in needing to take note of their stunts. :03:

[Tribesman]

It is about behavior instead - and violating certain standards of behavior
Would those behavioural standards include repeatedly lying, linking to blatantly racist websites while spouting vile bigotry and calling lunatic blogs "academic studies" ?:doh:

[Penguin]

That Berlusconi that is supposed to buy the Gorch F0ck to turn it into his private hare... I mean his private yacht? :D


:har: now we are talking about the really relevant media! One gotta love Harald - the last voice of the free world! :DL
(insider, only relevant for Krauts)

[Skybird]

Yes, I can't stand Harald Schmidt - bot sometimes his wordgames and jokes are second to none.

[MH]

Your very silly assumptions are there throughout the topic in plain writing by yourself for all to see.
.
Really?


Which is why your views are anti Israel as you support measures which are not only weakening the State but demonstrating the weakness in a very public manner.

Quite apposite.
Try to prove otherwise for once


In a set of questions that can only have one possible answer you balk at facing facts
That shows all that needs to be said, you simply cannot face reality and either avoid issues raised or simply lie and throw about baseless accusations.

You did not rise any issues so far....you only wrote remarks as "layer" or "start thinking" while trying to find in any thing that Israel does some evil doing just because it doesn't feet your view what ever it may be.

[Tribesman]

Really?


Yes, plainly.

Try to prove otherwise for once


You proved it for me yourself but are too blind to see.


You did not rise any issues so far
So you havn't made any claims and I havn't raised any issues??????
:har::har::har::har::har::har::har:
You can't help lying can you, have you thought of seeking help?

while trying to find in any thing that Israel does some evil doing just because it doesn't feet your view what ever it may be.
You are flailing about blindly, you appear totally clueless which really is quite an achievement, not a good achievement but a truly astounding one none the less.

[Jimbuna]

Where's Napoleon when you need him?

Latest rumour has it he is up for election at the next French Presidential.

David Beckham is standing in the UK one :DL

[MH]

Really?


Quite apposite.
Try to prove otherwise for once


You did not rise any issues so far....you only wrote remarks as "layer" or "start thinking" while trying to find in any thing that Israel does some evil doing just because it doesn't feet your view what ever it may be.

So you keep om answering me....go join the four world story thread some really serious issues await your attention.
Have fun and thnx

[Tribesman]

go join the four world story thread
I take it you must mean the one letter non fiction thread as you have shown severe problem writing anything thats true:yeah:

[Jan Kyster]

Last night turkish police got into heavy fighting with kurd supporters... again...



Anyone up for sending a Kurdish Aid Ship to Turkey? :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

Anyone up for calling the Turkish report just as good and unbiased as the Israeli one?

[Bilge_Rat]

Anyone up for calling the Turkish report just as good and unbiased as the Israeli one?

Agreed. The Israeli report is good and unbiased. :up:

[Jimbuna]

Agreed. The Israeli report is good and unbiased. :up:

LOL :DL