ASW of P3 Orion used on Nacro Subs

[Matador.es]

ASW capebilities of P3 Orion used on Nacro Subs

http://defensetech.org/2011/01/14/p-3-subhunters-pressed-into-service-to-find-narco-subs/

I thought they were to be replaced by the P8A in 2009?

Note on P3 SB: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eidMDdMK38s

Ayee

[TLAM Strike]

The first flight was in 2009, production is expected to start in 2013.


Don't forget to read all the comments on that article, lots of good info there.

[MaddogK]

LOL.
Imagine using an ASW aircraft to find a submarine- and peeps act surprised.

...and the last paragraph questioning 'how do they know whose sub it is' ?

Thats what they're TRAINED to know, and all that 'gucci' gear onboard the A/C was built for that purpose.

Civvies crack me up.

[ETR3(SS)]

I've dealt with P-3's on a couple of occasions, they can be good at there job. I was taught as an ESM operator to fear an APS-137 like the wrath of God.:yep:

[Ducimus]

They should bring back the depth charge. Just to screw with those narco subs. You gotta admit, it would be fun shucking them over :O:

[Matador.es]

I've dealt with P-3's on a couple of occasions, they can be good at there job. I was taught as an ESM operator to fear an APS-137 like the wrath of God.:yep:

Just a question 4 you then since you have experiance (i started playing Dangerous Waters since a week). How effective is MAD? And till what depth is it effective? What is the best way for a Orion to detect a sub.

When one (p3) would use the radar (scope) the subs ESM will detect the P3 radar signal way before the reflection will be able to get back to the P3. Effect, subs is aware of p3 before p3 knows about the sub. Subs dives deep and game over for the p3 unless its constantly dropping DIFAR/DISCAS/VLAD SB's? Which is quite an expensive approach i suppose?

The P3 could use ESM, which maintain stealth, but the sub is never going to use his radar on a final approach, so no point in turning it on, other then for surface vessels.

This weekend i will install DW on my laptop's and try some multy player (3pc) with myself (no i am not schizophrenic). So i can better determen the cause vs effect.

Last question, how detectable is the ESM mast of a sub? Is it just a its periscope? How can a sub use ESM without the risk of detection?

Maybe 2 many questions:o

[Matador.es]

The first flight was in 2009, production is expected to start in 2013.


http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/asd/2011/01/14/04.xml&headline=U.S.%20Navy%20Upgrades%20P-3C%20Orion%20Aircraft

[MaddogK]

Just a question 4 you then since you have experiance (i started playing Dangerous Waters since a week). How effective is MAD? And till what depth is it effective? What is the best way for a Orion to detect a sub.

MAD is extremely effective for pinpointing the location of metal and other electrical disturbances that produce a magnetic field that differs from the earths natural field. It is NEVER used as a search tool as the ASW A/C has to fly directly over the target for the MAD detector to indicate the target. The depth is almost a non-issue, MAD is an extremely sensitive sensor but considering the size of the magnetic disturbance a little range never hurts.

I can't speak specifically of P-3's, but normally fixed wing ASW patrol A/C 'seed' a field of LOFAR buoys and after the data is analyzed an area is indicated where a possible target is located, a few DIFAR buoys are layed in the area to confirm this and a track is generated. CASS/DICAS and MAD are then used to pinpoint the exact location of the target for weapons deployment.

When one (p3) would use the radar (scope) the subs ESM will detect the P3 radar signal way before the reflection will be able to get back to the P3. Effect, subs is aware of p3 before p3 knows about the sub. Subs dives deep and game over for the p3 unless its constantly dropping DIFAR/DISCAS/VLAD SB's? Which is quite an expensive approach i suppose?

The P3 could use ESM, which maintain stealth, but the sub is never going to use his radar on a final approach, so no point in turning it on, other then for surface vessels.I'm not sure of P-3 RADAR specs, but I'd assume that like the APS-116 an ESM mast would be almost undetectable unless the A/C was within a few miles of the target, and certainly the wake produced by the raised mast would be visible from the air a great distance. A sub wouldn't be running with any raised mast or scope for more than a couple of minutes unless the Capt. was a complete idiot. The search A/C would have ESM on at all times, so a single sweep of the targets RADAR would instantly be detected and give a vector for the A/C to search.

This weekend i will install DW on my laptop's and try some multy player (3pc) with myself (no i am not schizophrenic). So i can better determen the cause vs effect.

Last question, how detectable is the ESM mast of a sub? Is it just a its periscope? How can a sub use ESM without the risk of detection?

Maybe 2 many questions:o

[gimpy117]

Oh the war on drugs. don't get me started. If we spent half the money we spent on cleaning up our streets and actually educating our kids we wouldn't have such a big problem. But instead we decide to keep marajuana illegal and spend ooodles of money trying to keep this stuff out...which is pretty much pointless.

[ETR3(SS)]

Maddog pretty much answers it, but I'll still add a couple of things.

Just a question 4 you then since you have experiance (i started playing Dangerous Waters since a week). How effective is MAD? And till what depth is it effective? What is the best way for a Orion to detect a sub.

MAD is extremely effective for pinpointing the location of metal and other electrical disturbances that produce a magnetic field that differs from the earths natural field. It is NEVER used as a search tool as the ASW A/C has to fly directly over the target for the MAD detector to indicate the target. The depth is almost a non-issue, MAD is an extremely sensitive sensor but considering the size of the magnetic disturbance a little range never hurts.

I can't speak specifically of P-3's, but normally fixed wing ASW patrol A/C 'seed' a field of LOFAR buoys and after the data is analyzed an area is indicated where a possible target is located, a few DIFAR buoys are layed in the area to confirm this and a track is generated. CASS/DICAS and MAD are then used to pinpoint the exact location of the target for weapons deployment.Maddog has it on MAD, and mostly right on finding a submarine. The best way for a P-3 to find a sub, is to know where one might be at. There's thousands of square miles of ocean it has to cover and it can't be everywhere at once. This is where intelligence comes into play. It could be from any source foreign, another sub, or a surface ship. Once you have an area to search then you can go on to dropping buoys.


When one (p3) would use the radar (scope) the subs ESM will detect the P3 radar signal way before the reflection will be able to get back to the P3. Effect, subs is aware of p3 before p3 knows about the sub. Subs dives deep and game over for the p3 unless its constantly dropping DIFAR/DISCAS/VLAD SB's? Which is quite an expensive approach i suppose?

The P3 could use ESM, which maintain stealth, but the sub is never going to use his radar on a final approach, so no point in turning it on, other then for surface vessels.I'm not sure of P-3 RADAR specs, but I'd assume that like the APS-116 an ESM mast would be almost undetectable unless the A/C was within a few miles of the target, and certainly the wake produced by the raised mast would be visible from the air a great distance. A sub wouldn't be running with any raised mast or scope for more than a couple of minutes unless the Capt. was a complete idiot. The search A/C would have ESM on at all times, so a single sweep of the targets RADAR would instantly be detected and give a vector for the A/C to search.ESM is a passive system, meaning it emits no signal of any kind and therefore is undetectable. However the mast it uses is detectable by the APS-137 radar. When the ESM Operator gets an APS-137 on his scope, that doesn't mean you have to go deep to avoid it. Depending on what you are doing you may be required to stay at periscope depth for your mission. In that event the Officer of the Deck would lower the any masts and antennas not in use so they don't create a wake and can't be detected. As for the P-3 using ESM to locate a submarine, it wouldn't work unless the submarine is on the surface. A submarines radar is for nothing more than surface navigation. Unlike in WWII when it was used extensively by the US fleet boats, it has been replaced in that role by the sonar system. Sonar has a longer range and can be used passively which adds to the stealth of the submarine. Something about ESM and radar, they don't work very well together. If you have both on your radar will drown out anything else on your ESM system due to it's proximity.


This weekend i will install DW on my laptop's and try some multy player (3pc) with myself (no i am not schizophrenic). So i can better determen the cause vs effect.

Last question, how detectable is the ESM mast of a sub? Is it just a its periscope? How can a sub use ESM without the risk of detection?

Maybe 2 many questions:oESM is linked in with the periscope. Reason for this serves two purposes. First having just the periscope up allows the OOD to quickly survey his surroundings visually, and if if there is a nearby vessel that may run over the sub minimizes damage to other masts. Second it also allows the ESM operator a quick survey of the electronic environment. The first thing he would look for is strong ESM contacts that may pose a danger of collision, and then inform the OOD. Safety of ship is paramount to a successful mission. Also something of note about the APS-137, the operator can adjust the power output up or down.

[MaddogK]

Maddog has it on MAD, and mostly right on finding a submarine. The best way for a P-3 to find a sub, is to know where one might be at. There's thousands of square miles of ocean it has to cover and it can't be everywhere at once. This is where intelligence comes into play. It could be from any source foreign, another sub, or a surface ship. Once you have an area to search then you can go on to dropping buoys.Tho my clearance obligations have expired many years ago I still feel uncomfortable discussing certain aspects of ASW, especially intel. To add, P-3 search techniques differed from ours as we generally didn't go out with intel, other than where the fleet could be in X hours.

You understand.

[ETR3(SS)]

Tho my clearance obligations have expired many years ago I still feel uncomfortable discussing certain aspects of ASW, especially intel. To add, P-3 search techniques differed from ours as we generally didn't go out with intel, other than where the fleet could be in X hours.

You understand.You're showing your age with a post like that.:haha: All joking aside, my answer in regards to P-3 operations is based upon logic and common sense. It only makes sense that if you want to destroy your enemy you must first know where he is at. Also the needed intel is from a finite number of sources. All of this allows one to speculate as to the nature of the P-3 operations. My personal experience with the P-3 is limited to my time in the ESM operators seat on a SSBN. That said I certainly understand your feelings on the matter.

[bookworm_020]

Tracking Narco subs by a P-3 wouldn't as tought as a moden sub. Narco cubs aren't really built for stealth underwater!

[Matador.es]

Thank you all on your eleborate replies.

Just for the record, the reason why i ask it, is first that i am just interested, second, i got stuck on my Dangerous Waters mission with the P3 :D Third, since i did not know much about the P3 and its buoys i started to google, and found this article on Narco subs.

Maddogk, is this from "your time"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OgISrfPDfE&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShMLml2AQNI&feature=related

Maybe its in the wrong place to ask, but when i check YouTube on DW i see ships, helicopters etc i dont have in my stock version. What is the basic to have?

Ayee

[MaddogK]

:wah:
My time ?

Without audio I would answer 'yes' as they were still showing S-3's in the video.

[Matador.es]

http://www.chron.com/photos/2011/01/26/25067266/260xStory.jpg (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/7415756.html)

Experts: 'Nothing amateur' about narco submarine: (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/7415756.html)

The submarine is outfitted with a diesel-electric power system, according to the DEA. That includes twin diesel engines and more than 100 suitcase-size batteries.
7-ton payload
The craft is built chiefly with fiberglass over a wood frame, which keeps it light and buoyant.
It is believed to be able to submerge about 50 feet below the surface - deep enough to hide yet shallow enough to avoid crushing pressure.
The cargo bay toward the front is big enough to hold about seven tons of cocaine.
Such a payload is staggering when compared with the 622 pounds of cocaine caught all of last year by Customs and Border Protection inspectors in El Paso.

Made of fiberglass????

[TLAM Strike]

http://www.chron.com/photos/2011/01/26/25067266/260xStory.jpg (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/7415756.html)

Experts: 'Nothing amateur' about narco submarine: (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/7415756.html)



Made of fiberglass????

Nice photo of the props.

Yep they are made of fiberglass, its cheap and easy to work with in 3rd world nations.

Only a few of these subs have been made of steel.

[Ducimus]

The craft is built chiefly with fiberglass over a wood frame, which keeps it light and buoyant.
It is believed to be able to submerge about 50 feet below the surface - deep enough to hide yet shallow enough to avoid crushing pressure.

Nothing a fish finder and a few sticks of dynamite couldn't solve. :O:

If i lived in Florida, id seriously consider it if i had a rough idea where the narco subs ran. Although i don't think the coast guard would approve.