Germans wrestle with multicultural identity [Archive]

Skybird

12-30-10, 07:02 AM

Solution: Take the long, hard step of building a societal-wide consensus that acknowledges Islamic particularism…and its incompatibility with Western traditions.
That should be a solution...? What comes in the wake of this? German anthem sung in Turkish? German Turks voting in Turkey? Turkish autonomy zones in German cities?

The Islamic particularism - is nothing else but racism and supremacism, btw. . A Herrenkultur it claims to be, like regarding the Aryan cult in the Third Reich we talk of the Herrenrasse.

On the article, Merkel is the evidence that something like intellectual nihilism does exist. And her set of paroles and phrases is very limited - that'S why she is sounding so very repetitive. The word "alternativlos" I cannot hear anymore, sometimes I thought over this year that she uses this word more often than Yes and No together.

And to define German-ness by the looks of the blue-eyed blond Siegfried-kind of guy, does not make sense. The more to the East you move in Germany, the more you will see another visual model dominating, and I do not talk of Oriental imigrants, but the native people living in the region of the former Prussia, being influenced by the genetic heritage of the slavic people: in Berlin and surrounding regions for example you see dark-haired, dark-eyed males much more often than the blue-eyed, blond type, and more often than in the Western and Northern part of Germany.

What "German" means, touches upon things like historic identity, cultural background, value system, the basis one's philosophical thinking is founded upon, recognizing the influence of the Christian-Judaic tradition, an identity that preferes certain art styles over others. You cannot build a cluster of traditional Japanese wood-and-paper houses in Bavaria and then say that that would be "typical German".

Being German (or American or French or Australian) is more than exchnaging one ID card for another, and a stamp on a document means nothing, is just a formal bureaucratic thing.

And multiculturalism: regarding Islam, it failed miserably in Germany, and necessarily must do so - that'S why it is failing in all other European countries as well. Islam is not multicultural, but monocultural. The Quranic teaching explicitly rules out the tolerant acceptance of other cultures, but demands that there shall be only one culture: Islam. Coexistence never is based onm tolerance and respect, but is only meant to be temporary - lasting only as long as Islam is not strong enough to overcome the other culture. There will be no peace, says Islam, as long as there is still something left that is not Islam and by the fact of its existence poses a threat and challenges Islam's claim for undisputed reign. If you want peace, you thus must spread Islam. - That is no interpretation thing, but partially is said explicitly, partially is an implication of the revealed word of Allah himself. That is what the Quran is taken for: it is the word of Allah himself (its different with the Bible, and should not be compared). Us mortals have no right to want to change and interpret the word of God himself. Thinking that we may do that - is heresy. - The inten tional rejection to integrate, cannot be excused. But it can be explained. Regarding Turks, both Islam and their traditional cultural patriarchalic burden exlain why Turks so often refuse to integrate. There are those who do integrate, yes. But they are not exemplary, but the exception from the rule. They are the minority, and not even a big one. And typically they do not care for influencing their countrymen to integrate.

Feuer Frei!

12-30-10, 08:55 AM

Solution: its incompatibility with Western traditions.
I stress this, incompatibility.

That should be a solution...? What comes in the wake of this? German anthem sung in Turkish? German Turks voting in Turkey? Turkish autonomy zones in German cities?
Far from it, quiete the opposite actually

And to define German-ness by the looks of the blue-eyed blond Siegfried-kind of guy, does not make sense.Of course it doesn't, just a stereotypical, narrow-minded viewpoint.

What "German" means, touches upon things like historic identity, cultural background, value system, the basis one's philosophical thinking is founded upon, recognizing the influence of the Christian-Judaic tradition, an identity that preferes certain art styles over others. You cannot build a cluster of traditional Japanese wood-and-paper houses in Bavaria and then say that that would be "typical German".Agreed!

The country has little need of unskilled labor illiterate in German, although it is facing a labor shortage for highly qualified positions. The German economy is doing far better than the rest of Europe due to niches in machine tools, construction equipment, and other high-quality capital goods; every factory in China runs on German machine tools. Unlike the 1960s, unskilled immigrants are now more of a burden than a blessing to German industry.
The facts the global press failed to mention, however, include the fact that an important motivation for the Chancellor's remarks lies in Germany's profound disillusionment at the radical Islamist tendencies in Turkey's government, led by Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, and Germany's alarm at Turkey's drift towards Islamism.

DarkFish

12-30-10, 09:21 AM

My solution?

Send them all back to Turkey or wherever they come from. If they don't want any part in German society, what are they doing there? They are coming to Germany, so they should behave as a German expects them to. That means obeying cultural rules and speaking the language. Don't want to do that? In that case you have no business there.

And yes, I think a true German looks like this blond-hair-blue-eyes ideal. Not necessarily blond hair or blue eyes, but most certainly Germanic facial characteristics.
Which by the way doesn't mean there is one kind of German. Germans from the south look different from their northern compatriots.

the_tyrant

12-30-10, 10:28 AM

Skybird

12-30-10, 11:16 AM

As Gunnar Heihnsohn has shown, and other statistics to which he refers also indicate, the deciding issue are birth rates. And Muslim migrants, social low class, uneducated, tend to have much hiugher birth rates than the native German academically educated upper class career woman. The numbers cannot be denied. To keep a population strength, women need to have 2.1 opr 2.3 babies. But the Muslim migration women statistically have a very much higher biorth rate, which means they do not maintain but increase their share in population, while the German native women andf the middle and upper class have significantly less than 2.1 babies, which means their share of the total population of the German state is decreasing.

It also means that the number of future social wellfare receivers is growing and the numbers of netto payers is declining.

Several Muslim politicians and clerics have explicitly described this as the way to continue where the military attempt to take over Europe has failed. Demographics now are the weapon to "outbreed" the Europeans, babies are the weapons in this kind of war. Societies of the West should be socially destabilised and made to collapse, the authority of the state erodes and weakens, and what remains is then easy prey for Islamic blackmailing and intimidation in order to have the West adopting it, else face open revolts and ungovernable cities. You can already see it in England, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, where police procedures, language and legislation get gagged to avoid anything that could upset the strong and already very loud Muslim parallel societies. Especially the English are no longer rulers in their own house. Same is true for several cities in other nations as well.

Ironically it often are those apostate Muslim that flee from Muslim regimes like Iran, that warn the loudest of these things - and then get the mandatory beating by the political correctness brigade and the - mainly left-leaning -intellectuals that claim to know Islam so much better than Islam knows itself.

And the Germanic look of Germans - the link between Germans and the old Germanic tribes, is mostly a myth. Like we also are made to believe that it were out forefathers that under good ol' Hermann defeated the roman legions in the battle of the Teutoburger forest. But ethnologists say that the truth is we Germans have little to do with the Geranic people of that time, and in fact genetically as well as by cultural influence share much, much more with the Romans, than with the Germanic tribes. That ancient histpory era is very widely misunderstood, and currently gets rewritten anyway. Recent archeologic findings seem to give evidence that after the defeat the romans did anything but staying away, but had several punishing war expeditions into the Germanic forest in the twoo hundred years to come, and they moved much more North than was previously thought. Ands I think that reaction is much more in line with what we are used to think about the Roman military empire. It does not fit that they just should have left the place because one battle was lost and the rites and habits of the Germanic people were scaring to them. That they punished them and piushed even stronger into the enemy's territory, which seems to be shown by recent archeologic findings, fits the image we have of Rome much better. - Germans tend to think of the Germanic leader being "one of theirs", we even have a very big monument of him at Detmold, 2km away from the place were I was born. :) But truth is we have little in common with him and his people, and we modern Germans are much stronger linked to the Romans. - We have just had a remembrance year, and there were several docus because of this on TV, about the battle at the Teutoburger forest. The history of the Roman-Germanic conflict must be rewritten. Rome was active in Germania muchg longer than was thought, and the defeat Varus suffered, was not the end of the Roman engagement. In fact, Rome moved further north after that than ever before.

the_tyrant

12-30-10, 12:02 PM

Schroeder

12-30-10, 12:13 PM

although it is facing a labor shortage for highly qualified positions.

I always get a good laugh out of this. Do you know how many academics are unemployed? We don't have a shortage of good people. We have a shortage in companies training them!
You have no experience in your job? Sorry we can't take you.
You can't operate SAP? Sorry we can't take you?
If one puts the level of what a person is supposed to be qualified in to unreachable heights then one shouldn't complain that one doesn't get any "good" people. Today companies don't want to invest in their personnel any more. You are supposed to know everything the day you start. That's impossible of course but our glorious managers think it's good for the books and it's cheaper to whine and demand more people from India (who aren't better then we are, but they are at least cheaper).

The German economy is doing far better than the rest of Europe due to niches in machine tools, construction equipment, and other high-quality capital goods; every factory in China runs on German machine tools. Unlike the 1960s, unskilled immigrants are now more of a burden than a blessing to German industry.
Actually it's also because wages have dropped here dramatically.
If you sign a new employment contract then you will find really low wages there nowadays. You've got to be happy to get 30.000€ gross pay a year as an academic. I know some who get less. They got 20.400€ a year as academics! I did an intern ship 5 years ago with a company that operates buses and I talked to some of the drivers. The average public service bus driver earned more than that back then. Why did we actually study?

Rant over, now I feel better.:D

Penguin

12-30-10, 12:25 PM

If current trends continue, the turks can never take over Germany
Just think about it guys, most turks in Germany are illegal immigrants anyways.
The rest that are legal belong mostly in the uneducated lower class anyways

turks taking over Germany is just like Mexicans taking over the US
if current trends continue, it will never happen

Is there a price for the dumbest post of the year? We have a winner!
Really, your parents should spank you and make you write 1000 times: "I will only write about that I know of". I really shouldn't read threadfs when I'm not logged in....:nope:
If all the chinese in Canada are this ignorent they should be deported.
Please do not come to Germany, my immigrant friends would not welcome you here.
hint: most turkish people in Germany are legal here - the problems are more complex than a small brain might be able to understand

My solution?

Send them all back to Turkey or wherever they come from. If they don't want any part in German society, what are they doing there? They are coming to Germany, so they should behave as a German expects them to. That means obeying cultural rules and speaking the language. Don't want to do that? In that case you have no business there.

Cmon DF, I know you can do better, sending all Turks back is not possible - and a blank generalisation of a whole group.
I grew up in a poor part of town with a huge immigrant population, I know what I am talking about. However in the 80s, if you spoke ****ty german, you would be laughed at - today there is an alarming trend to talk like a bullet blew away half you brain - among most teenagers.
That being said, I don't like most Turks as well as I don't like most Germans also. I hate anybody who wants to take my freedom away.
The reason many people stay in this country where they despise it's laws and it's population is easy to determine: It's all about the money. They stay here for job opportunities/welfare. However: if someone is into sharia, there are plenty of countries who offer this opportunity...

And yes, I think a true German looks like this blond-hair-blue-eyes ideal. Not necessarily blond hair or blue eyes, but most certainly Germanic facial characteristics.
Which by the way doesn't mean there is one kind of German. Germans from the south look different from their northern compatriots.

Well, one of my granddads had an "arian certification" (Ariernachweis) till 1750, but we are are weird mutt mix, originally from SE Europe several 100 years ago. My other side are mostly of eastern european descent. Throw in East-Prussian, Polish, maybe some jewish heritage too. German since many generations. Many people think I look polish - whatever poles look like.
The Germans were always a mix of several different tribes. Just take a look at the names for Germans in several languages. Deutsche, Duitse, aleman, allemandes, tyska, saksan, tedeschi, niemcy....

As Gunnar Heihnsohn has shown, and other statistics to which he refers also indicate, the deciding issue are birth rates. And Muslim migrants, social low class, uneducated, tend to have much hiugher birth rates than the native German academically educated upper class career woman. The numbers cannot be denied. To keep a population strength, women need to have 2.1 opr 2.3 babies. But the Muslim migration women statistically have a very much higher biorth rate, which means they do not maintain but increase their share in population, while the German native women andf the middle and upper class have significantly less than 2.1 babies, which means their share of the total population of the German state is decreasing.

Ignorant people shouldn't breed -it's simple as this.

the_tyrant

12-30-10, 01:06 PM

@penguin

my statement was an estimate, but i think its partially correct

In 2003, the number of legally resident foreigners in Germany was 7.3 million, which comprised 8.9 percent of the total population. Citizens of the former guest worker countries continue to make up the largest share of this number, which notably included 1.9 million Turkish citizens, of whom 654,000 were born in Germany. Another 575,000 Turks have been naturalized since 1972 and do not show up in statistics of the foreign population.
]

from http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=235

There are approximately 1.000.000 illegal immigrants in Germany, 250.000 alone in the capital Berlin. These people live without any papers and without an insurance card that allows them access to the German health system. The state of Berlin considers now to issue these illegal immigrants living in Berlin an “anonymous insurance certificate” that allows them to seek medical help without fearing repercussions after revealing their identity and illegal immigration status.

http://www.erblawg.com/illegal-immigrants-in-berlin-germany-may-receive-health-care-without-repercussions-in-the-future/

1.9 million(turks)-654,000(born in germany)-575,000(obtained german citizenship)= 671000 (turks in germany without german citizenship)

majority>50%, therefore, if the amount of illegal turks exceed 335500, the majority is illegal.

therefore, if the percentage of illegal immigrants that are Turkish exceed 33.55%, a majority of turkish people in germany is illegal(i can't find statistics on the origin of illegal immigrants)

but still, my mistake. I was stupid to make assumptions that i have no data to back

Skybird

12-30-10, 01:41 PM

@Skybird
don't worry. Here in canada we have a large Muslim population too
The first generation immigrants are still obviously muslim
the second generation is "Black".
My muslim friends dress in the same clothes as us, listen to the same music as us, eat the same foods as us, watch the same tv as us. They are exactly like the rest of us.

the thing is, western (mainly american) culture is more "infectious" than Muslim culture. It is easier to adapt to western culture than it is to Muslim culture.

Strange, in England and Germany it is exactly the other way around - if you were right about Canada. The second generation German-Turks were more conservative than their parents, and now the third generation is more orthodox, not tzo saY: radical than the first and second generation. Their rejecion of Western values is more complete, their Turkish nationalism is more radical, their pro-Islamic demands are more total, and their readiness to accept/tolerate even violence to enforce Islamic rule is more widespread than ever before.

I have repeatedly hinted at statistic findings from Germany and England over the past couple of years illustrating this.

There is a reason for the appearance of Islam being better integrated in North America. Islam spreas and anchors in Canda and the US because both societies - being traditional immigration countries from their founding days on - are more uncritical and naive both regarding foreign immigrants, and the term "religion". I mean even scientoilogy gets accepted to be a "religion" instead of a criminal corporation in the US! Islam does not need to become loud in the US to grow and spread, it does so anyway, by much less spectacular ways, because it meets lesser opposition by the non-Muslim population than in Europe. Also, in europe, due to the chriuch tyranny and later the facist Nazio terror, the understanding and awareness of the danger of totalitarian dogmas and supremacist ideologies seem to be clearer and stronger, than in North America. And finally, North America and especially the US is more orthodox and sectarian in its christian self-conception, than in European countries, were almost everywhere the once existing dominance of the Christian churches are more and more put into question, and the American diversity of sects present in the public space does not exist over here, too. The fundamentalist or sectarian of the one religion may have more sympathy for the sectarian/fundamentalist person of another religion - birds of same feather flock together. And Islam does not know fundamentalism in just some of its schools or sects, but is fundamentalist in its very basic essence and teaching. - In Europe, the churches seem to hope they could benefit from helping Islam getting established over here - by that they seem to hope to re-establish a stronger obedience to religious dogmatism and authority claims of religious organisations in general (Islam AND the churches), so that they will regain some of their former political power and influence.

Penguin

12-30-10, 01:53 PM

@penguin

my statement was an estimate, but i think its partially correct

from http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=235

http://www.erblawg.com/illegal-immigrants-in-berlin-germany-may-receive-health-care-without-repercussions-in-the-future/

1.9 million(turks)-654,000(born in germany)-575,000(obtained german citizenship)= 671000 (turks in germany without german citizenship)

majority>50%, therefore, if the amount of illegal turks exceed 335500, the majority is illegal.

therefore, if the percentage of illegal immigrants that are Turkish exceed 33.55%, a majority of turkish people in germany is illegal(i can't find statistics on the origin of illegal immigrants)

since you have backed you claims with sources, I will reply:

The numbers you mentioned are about corrrect, your conclusions are not.

First: if you're born here, you don't automatically obtain german citizenship, we have jus sanguinus here, vs. jus soli like in North America. So the number of Turks with a turkish passport are ~ 1.3 mil
Second: There are many ways to live legalyl here if you are not a citizen: Do the words visa or work permit ring a bell? So assuming anyone who doesn't have german citizenship is illegal here is complete bs.

Due to its nature, the composition of the illegal immigrant population is not undermined by hard facts. Just assuming that the biggest part of the illegals would be Turks because they make the biggest percentage of the legal foreigners is wrong. Because of the fact that it is comparatively easy for them to live here legally, the percentage is significant lower. If you would know the german reality, you would see that there are many other foreign nationals who make up the illegal population. The number of illegals differ between 1-2 million btw.

Hey, I even knew an illegal Mexican here, quite unique here in Germany! :DL He was a great guy, I would gladly have traded some legal islamistic immigrants or moronic Germans for him...

the_tyrant

12-30-10, 01:54 PM

Strange, in England and Germany it is exactly the other way around - if you were right about Canada. The second generation German-Turks were more conservative than their parents, and now the third generation is more orthodox, not tzo saY: radical than the first and second generation. Their rejecion of Western values is more complete, their Turkish nationalism is more radical, their pro-Islamic demands are more total, and their readiness to accept/tolerate even violence to enforce Islamic rule is more widespread than ever before.

I have repeatedly hinted at statistic findings from Germany and England over the past couple of years illustrating this.

There is a reason for the appearance of Islam being better integrated in North America. Islam spreas and anchors in Canda and the US because both societies - being traditional immigration countries from their founding days on - are more uncritical and naive both regarding foreign immigrants, and the term "religion". I mean even scientoilogy gets accepted to be a "religion" instead of a criminal corporation in the US! Islam does not need to become loud in the US to grow and spread, it does so anyway, by much less spectacular ways, because it meets lesser opposition by the non-Muslim population than in Europe. Also, in europe, due to the chriuch tyranny and later the facist Nazio terror, the understanding and awareness of the danger of totalitarian dogmas and supremacist ideologies seem to be clearer and stronger, than in North America. And finally, North America and especially the US is more orthodox and sectarian in its christian self-conception, than in European countries, were almost everywhere the once existing dominance of the Christian churches are more and more put into question, and the American diversity of sects present in the public space does not exist over here, too. The fundamentalist or sectarian of the one religion may have more sympathy for the sectarian/fundamentalist person of another religion - birds of same feather flock together. And Islam does not know fundamentalism in just some of its schools or sects, but is fundamentalist in its very basic essence and teaching. - In Europe, the churches seem to hope they could benefit from helping Islam getting established over here - by that they seem to hope to re-establish a stronger obedience to religious dogmatism and authority claims of religious organisations in general (Islam AND the churches), so that they will regain some of their former political power and influence.

Wow, thats surprising
if we look at some recent pictures from iran:
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=789345885 (i hope the link works)

it actually seems like western culture is taking ground over there

Gerald

12-30-10, 03:18 PM

Sorry I can not fluent chinesiska , at the link

the_tyrant

12-30-10, 06:17 PM

Sorry I can not fluent chinesiska , at the link

its just the pics
we can see that Iran is actually westernizing

DarkFish

12-30-10, 09:23 PM

Cmon DF, I know you can do better, sending all Turks back is not possible - and a blank generalisation of a whole group.You don't understand me entirely correctly it seems. I don't advocate sending all Turks back. What I'm talking about is sending those Turks back that do not want to obey the rules of *our* society. You live in Germany, you speak German. You live in Germany, you behave as a German. Simple as that.

I do realize this is hardly doable and not a solution.
Something that might be a solution is being harsher to immigrants that do not want to adept themselves. For example, at least here in the Netherlands pretty much every official information leaflet is written in Dutch, Turkish and Arabic, and often in Papiamento as well. This really needs to stop. If they can't read it, they should take lessons. We should force them to assimilate into our culture, not assimilate ourselves into theirs.

I grew up in a poor part of town with a huge immigrant population, I know what I am talking about.Me too. I know just as well what I'm talking about as you do.

However in the 80s, if you spoke ****ty german, you would be laughed at - today there is an alarming trend to talk like a bullet blew away half you brain - among most teenagers.Agree with you here. Nowadays youth usually under the influence of (c)rap music tries to adopt immigrant cultures.

The reason many people stay in this country where they despise it's laws and it's population is easy to determine: It's all about the money. They stay here for job opportunities/welfare. However: if someone is into sharia, there are plenty of countries who offer this opportunity...Exactly! So if you want to have sharia law, go find work somewhere else. If you come to Germany to work, you're there as a guest and you should behave as such (it's called "guest worker" for a reason).

Well, one of my granddads had an "arian certification" (Ariernachweis) till 1750, but we are are weird mutt mix, originally from SE Europe several 100 years ago. My other side are mostly of eastern european descent. Throw in East-Prussian, Polish, maybe some jewish heritage too. German since many generations. Many people think I look polish - whatever poles look like.You probably look less stereotypically German because of this. But again, not every German looks the same as any other German. As you say, your family has lived in Germany for many generations and from the sounds of it you have perfectly adopted German culture. It would be wrong not to call you German.

Myself, I'm a Dutchman, but I prefer to see myself as a Franconian. My family comes from the border area of the historical Franconian and Saxon tribes. I'm probably for the largest part Franconian (Chamavian/Salian), but definitely with large Saxon influences.
That said, there is no such thing as "pure blood". There have always been influences from outside the Germanic territory. One big example is Attila the Hun who brought Asian blood into Europe through his conquests.

The Germans were always a mix of several different tribes. Just take a look at the names for Germans in several languages. Deutsche, Duitse, aleman, allemandes, tyska, saksan, tedeschi, niemcy...Germanic history, religion and culture is one of my hobbies so if there's anyone you shouldn't need to tell this it's me:DL

Ignorant people shouldn't breed -it's simple as this.:up:

Gerald

12-30-10, 11:37 PM

its just the pics
we can see that Iran is actually westernizing Ok! I understand!

TLAM Strike

12-30-10, 11:49 PM

Wow, thats surprising
if we look at some recent pictures from iran:
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=789345885 (i hope the link works)

it actually seems like western culture is taking ground over there

Iran has been trying to westernize since before the Revolution. I don't think anything in those pictures is anything new.

Diopos

12-31-10, 12:37 AM

heartc

12-31-10, 03:15 AM

@DarkFish
3rd generation Turks, in Germany, can't be considered "guests" anymore. You can't send them "home". They are there already.
And there are other ways to "analyze" the problem. Let's assume, for a moment, that there was no "West/Islam conflict". Communication skills (or lack of) of said group would (should) be addressed via the education system/ social programs etc. Nobody would suggest, at least officially, to throw out of Germany, German citizens because they talk "funny".

:hmmm:

.

QFT, thank you. If we would start "throwing out" people who can't speak, read and write proper German, we would have to throw out roughly 40% of the population in my estimate. If we include punctuation - 80%.

Also, what is this "behave as a German" bullcrap I'm reading? How does "a German" "behave", and do you (DarkFish) decide it, or do we need some official department for it? Last time I checked, this land was supposed to be free. And yes, that also includes freedom of religion. Freedom is always the freedom of the other. It is for ALL the people, EQUALLY, otherwise you DON'T HAVE IT. All that should matter is that people uphold the law. You have no business to decide who goes and who stays based on how they "behave", as long as they don't break the law.

The real problem is that too often courts of justice are making excuses and giving quarters to criminals because they take their "cultural background" or some such into account. They are thereby promoting a condition in which some people, based on their heritage / community, feel less bound to the law than others, which is fatal. All people should be equal under the law, and the penalty should be more based on what they did as a crime, not where they come from or who their friends are.

In addition, "throwing money at the problem" should stop immediately, too. It is far too easy in general in Germany to obtain social welfare money. A lot of people - that includes actual Germans, but the number is obviously disproportional in immigrant groups - have willingly settled or foolishly maneuvered themselves into a position where they are irrelevant for the job market and live from the tits of the welfare state. At the same time, many of those are working in clandestine employment, maximising the ripp off. There are whole family businesses working like that. This needs to stop.

And last but not least, I think our immigration laws are far too lax. We should look much more closely at WHO wants to come here, WHY and HOW they plan to support themselves once here. It should be a lot more in their own responsibility to be successfull here than that of the state. You would naturally cater to those more constructive individuals by adhering to what I wrote above: Stop throwing money at the problem.

Tribesman

12-31-10, 03:56 AM

You live in Germany, you speak German. You live in Germany, you behave as a German. Simple as that.

Which sort of German must they speak? Does that mean they can kick out all the Germans who don't use Standard?
Behave like a German? Invade Poland?:03:
What on earth does a german behave like. One of the german people in this topic contributing his usual nonsenseical rants about demographics has often written about german behavior which many would describe as typical german behavior but he as a german has written about how he hates that typical german behavior.
Simple as that????????

For example, at least here in the Netherlands pretty much every official information leaflet is written in Dutch, Turkish and Arabic, and often in Papiamento as well. This really needs to stop.
Surely every official leaflet should be available in every officially recognised language in the country, which means they should all be available in Papiamento as well as several other languages of the Netherlands.
Plus of course since there is supposed to be free movement and free trade in Europe the official leaflets really should be available in every oficially recognised language in the EU.

Skybird

12-31-10, 06:55 AM

It's not so much that Germans wrestle with multiculturalism, as long as it is clear that Germany is German and does not get abolsihed itself. But right this is the goal of some political factions, namely the left and the Greens. They hate Germany for being there, and want to delete it in princ iple. Everything foreign is better to them, than Germany. I personally would sack their citizenships and kick them out with a free ride to one of thosxe foriegn countries they admire so much more than their own home that is paying and feeding and nursing them. Some quotes, German originals and then the translation:

Jürgen Trittin, head of the Greens :
"Deutschland verschwindet immer mehr, und das finde ich schön"
Germany vanishes more and more, and I find that beautiful.

Claudia Roth, vice-head of the Greens:
"Deutsche sind Nichtmigranten, mehr nicht!"
German are non-migrants - nothing more.

Joschka Fischer , former foreign ministre and former head of the Greens:
„Deutschland muß von außen eingehegt, und innen durch Zustrom heterogenisiert, quasi „verdünnt“ werden.“
Germany must be contained from the outside, and must be made more heterogen by migration, it must be thinned out.

And now my two favourites which tell all you need to know about these sickos:

Green party'S leadership in a common explanation :
"Es geht nicht um Recht oder Unrecht in der Einwanderungsdebatte, uns geht es zuerst um die Zurückdrängung des deutschen Bevölkerungsanteils in diesem Land."
In the immigration debate, it is not about justice or injustice, but first for us it is about pushing back the German population share in this country.

Daniel Cohn-Bendit, left Green in the EU parliament:
"Wir, die Grünen, müssen dafür sorgen, so viele Ausländer wie möglich nach Deutschland zu holen. Wenn sie in Deutschland sind, müssen wir für ihr Wahlrecht kämpfen. Wenn wir das erreicht haben, werden wir den Stimmenanteil haben, den wir brauchen, um diese Republik zu verändern. "
We, the Greens, must make sure that as many foreigners come to Germany as possible. When they are in Germany, we must fight for their voting right. When we have reached that, then we wilkl have the share in votes that we need to change this republic.

Cem Özdemir, Turkish vice-head of the Greens:
„Der deutsche Nachwuchs heißt jetzt Mustafa, Giovanni und Ali!”
The German offsprings now are named Mustafa, Giovanni, and Ali.

This breed makes me sick. To imagine that these really are sitting in the German parliament, working for the deletion of Germany, makes me even sicker. This party, and many other left politicians, HATE Germany for being there, and everything and everyone that/who is not Germany, to them is better than Germany. They should give back their citizenship and piss off, really. They tell the Germans how wonderful it is to live as a German in a foreign nheighbourhood - but most of themselves live in houses and villas in noble and expensive city districts far away from these foreign neighbvourhoods and drive in huge limousines. Traitors to their country and destroyers they are.

Schroeder

12-31-10, 07:07 AM

@Skybird
Strangely enough one doesn't hear anything about those statements in the "normal" media like daily newspapers or the Tagesschau...:doh:

Skybird

12-31-10, 07:31 AM

@DarkFish
3rd generation Turks, in Germany, can't be considered "guests" anymore. You can't send them "home". They are there already.

But if you ask them, many of them tell you that they do not wish to be Germans either. So what are they? They are surely none of us Germans, and they actively refuse integration. What they want is to change Germany so that it becomes like the country their forefathers came from in the 50s and 60s. They want it to become Islamic, and Turkish nationslistic, and ultra-orthodox patriarchalic.

And there are other ways to "analyze" the problem.

So when the analysis does not produce the results you want, you switch to other methods for so long until one does?

Let's assume, for a moment, that there was no "West/Islam conflict".
Why? It is an integral part of the problem. There are three main problems: The Islamic nature of their home culture, the fetishist macho-culture of Turkish males, and the strong patriachalic family structures that does a lot of damage to psychological health of families and their internal structures. Social workers working with Turkish families will confirm what I say. Since dec ades they time and again run into the same problems, and mostly they do not get through.

Communication skills (or lack of) of said group would (should) be addressed via the education system/ social programs etc.

Do you really think we have not tried that in the past 40 years? As I said above, the refusal of integration is something that is intentional in case of many Turks. There are also others that try to integrate, yes, and they care for their kids going to school and learning the language and gettiong jobs. But these are not typical, but a minority. Finally, Erdoghan the Great doe snot hide that for him migration is a weapon to succeed where the siege at Vienna failed, and his foreign minister or relgious minsitre, I forgot which of the two it was, explicitly said that with that reference himself. And erdoghan on visit in Cologne two years ago called for Turkls resisting integration and that they shoulds stay loyal to their Turkish identity and that it is a crime against humanity that they should be expected to learn the language, and integrate.

Nobody would suggest, at least officially, to throw out of Germany, German citizens because they talk "funny".

It'S not just about taliing funny. As I said on page one, an identity is n ot a stamp in an official document, but it is a feeling and love that has grown over time and that has its roots ijn the past and in the traditions that have influenced one'S own education and raise. Many Turks lack this, and do not see the legitimity of the demand that they must adopt to the circumnstance sin Germany and cannot stay lioked they are, just as if they still were in Turkey. They have to adapt to us, not we to them. The migrant has to chnage himself in order to live in the foreign society, that is called migration. If he is demanding the society to chnage according to his identity because he does not wish to chnage himself, then it is not migration, but colonialism.

So, I say there are quite many Turks that I would not mind to kick out of Germany. Not all, but a majhority of them. They pose nothing but problems to us, they are overrepresented in statistics on failing integration, failiung school aducation, fialing in jobs and employment, and crime, and many get more social wellfare and benefits than they ever pay back in taxes. This is the form of migration that in no way is a contribution and win for Germany, but is a hole without bottom, becasue statistically they have far more children than the quoted 2.1 per woman, which means they share of the overall population grows, while the share of netto payers in general declines. Now do the maths. They cost much more money than they contribute to public finances in any form.

And just btw: why is it necessary to give them special programs and special status, to make them learn the language, to make them integrate and to get education? No other migration group gives us such problems, not to mention crime. It'S always, always, people from Muslim countries, and thus dominantly Turks, Albanians, Afghans, Lebanese, Maroccans. The noticable exception are the Iranian communities, because many of them in Germany fled from the regime and represent the well-educated "Bildungsbürgertum" that also exists in Iran, being more influenced by Western culture and education than other population groups or Muslims nationalities. - But we do not have püroblems with Chjinese. Japanese. Koreans. Not with Spanish, South Africans, Indians. Not with Argentinians, Candians, Americans. Not with Australians, Russians, Poles. Not with Swerdes, Danes or Dutch. Notz with English, French or Italians.

It'S always the Muslims. It sounds like a parole or a sterteotype, but it is true. And what have thery all in common? Two things. Patriarchalic social structures at home, and Islam (which also foisters a strong patriarchalism).
So - can we agree that Islam and patriachalism obviously pose a problem here - or do you wish to change analysis mode until you get a result that is softer on the grim truth and hides it any better?

Thilo Sarrazin: Ich muss niemanden anerkennen, der vom Staat lebt, diesen Staat ablehnt, für die Ausbildung seiner Kinder nicht vernünftig sorgt und ständig neue kleine Kopftuchmädchen produziert.
(I must not recognise anybody who lives by the state, but rejects this state, does not reasonably care for the education of his children, and constantly produces more new little headscarf-girls.)

Skybird

12-31-10, 07:39 AM

@Skybird
Strangely enough one doesn't hear anything about those statements in the "normal" media like daily newspapers or the Tagesschau...:doh:

Well, it is en vogue to tolerate the abandoning of German culture. For the left, German hsitory started in 1933 and ended in 1945. The nine millennias before do not exist to them,. nor do German arts, literature, philosophy, sc inece and the tremendous heritage they gave to the global treasure chest of culture and progress. They are pathologically fixiated on these 12 years and now want to spend the rest of their lives with demonstrating to the world that they indeed think it was not good what happened back then.

As if the world cares that much for what they think.

the_tyrant

12-31-10, 08:03 AM

Iran has been trying to westernize since before the Revolution. I don't think anything in those pictures is anything new.

What i'm trying to say is, while the immigrants from the middle east are not adapting to western culture, the middle east itself is.

Maybe future immigrants will have no trouble adapting to the west except that they speak a different language

Tribesman

12-31-10, 08:08 AM

They hate Germany for being there, and want to delete it in princ iple. Everything foreign is better to them, than Germany.
And this complaint is someone who hates Germany and says he has no loyalty to Germany:rotfl2:
Once again the very mentaly mixed up skybird is so confused with so many things to hate that he condemns the very things he praises.

What they want is to change Germany so that it becomes like the country their forefathers came from in the 50s and 60s. They want it to become Islamic, and Turkish nationslistic, and ultra-orthodox patriarchalic
Does that sound like the Turkey of their fathers?:har::har::har::har:

It'S always the Muslims.
Unless of course its the jews the negroes the chinese the poles the catholics or the protestants.
Hey you recently complained about blacks and muslims didn't you so clearly it isn't always muslims as you showed yourself to be a small minded bigot on several levels:down:
Bigots will always find some group to complain about, and amazingly bigots will always ignore reality and repeat the same old lies again and again no matter how often they are shown to be nothing but crazy ignorant bigotry spouted from a confused scared small minded person.

12-31-10, 08:16 AM

See see the all around liberal loving europeans face same problems as we Isralis do.
I find it rather funny twist of fate now seening ex nazi partys growing in popularity in germany and sweeden(the most liberal countries)becouse of flood of muslims .
Another reality check.

Tribesman

12-31-10, 08:23 AM

See see the all around liberal loving europeans face same problems as we Isralis do.

What?
Too many Russians, Ethiopians or Haredi?

Feuer Frei!

12-31-10, 08:25 AM

Immigrant and minority communities in Europe, particularly Turks and Muslims, should make an effort to claim their agency in society and move away from the periphery to the center. They should (in fact many of them do) speak the language of their host countries and know something about the cultural traditions and sensitivities of the people with whom they share their lives.

But immigrant and minority communities can do that only with a genuine and authentic identity claim. Asking them to shed themselves of their core values and who they are would only generate a sense of further isolation and alienation. This may be exactly what right-wing European parties and political pundits want. But this is not the way to integrate them.

A prominent German historian, Hans-Ulrich Wehler:
"Islam is not a part of Germany. We participate in the western, Christian-Jewish culture. For centuries, Islam was an enemy of this Europe. Islam did not become part of the culture or the social life of Germany, regardless of whether you look at law, politics or constitutional thought."

He goes on to say:
"The great achievement of the high middle ages was the separation of religious and worldly power. The separation of Church and State is a fundamental fact in the West. This is the opposite of conditions in Muslim countries. We have to defend the advantage of our political culture ferociously."

Will German Muslims, over a couple of generations, become more "German," or will they remain ensconced within immigrant ghettoes?

For one, learning the German language is essential for better communication and interaction between different cultures. If people want to become successful citizens they should obey the law and respect the country's cultural norms.
Multiculturalism only works if you put in a political effort. It does not work if left alone. Immigrants must integrate. That's why it failed - Muslims have a bigger resistance to integrating than any other group.

Basically the multi-cultural approach has led to the formation of a minority that is not accepted as, and often does not wish to be, a part of the larger society. This is certainly not solely, or even largely, the immigrants' fault.
Most of the immigrants in Western-Europe come from Islamic countries, and what's more they come from the poorer, rural, usually more conservative, areas of these countries. This obviously clashes with modern western culture. And this is also were multiculturalism starts becoming delusional. These people simply can not be a succesful part of society without changing those aspects of their culture. It's not possible. It leads to massive problems. Multiculturalism is great, but only up to a point. You can learn and benefit a lot from foreign cultures, but for cultures to succesfully live together, they need to be compatible. They need the same basic outlook on things like human rights, civil liberty etc.

DarkFish

12-31-10, 09:17 AM

Which sort of German must they speak?German. I don't care how much of a Turkish accent they have, but German. I don't care how many spelling errors they make, but German. I don't care if their grammar is at the same level as of a 3 year old kid, but German.

What on earth does a german behave like. One of the german people in this topic contributing his usual nonsenseical rants about demographics has often written about german behavior which many would describe as typical german behavior but he as a german has written about how he hates that typical german behavior.
Simple as that????????Well for starters Germans don't go shouting around like fishwifes pretending they are somehow more important than the people around them. They don't hit their women. They don't keep their women dressed up like a nun. They don't let their kids freaking steal and wreak havoc to the neighbourhood. They respect our system of politics and don't intimidate or attack people whom they not agree with.

Now I'm not saying that every Turk behaves like that, but I sure know more Turks that do than that don't. The Turks who don't behave like that, please let them stay. The Turks that do, get the hell out.

Surely every official leaflet should be available in every officially recognised language in the country, which means they should all be available in Papiamento as well as several other languages of the Netherlands.I agree that Papiamento is an exception, because in the end we did conquer the Antilles. But even then, Papiamento (and English) are only official languages in the Antilles. The only official languages in the Netherlands are Dutch and Frisian. Yet while Frisians are expected to speak Dutch, as you won't find any Frisian on official leaflets, the not officially recognised languages of Turkish and Arabic are abundant.

Your argument that leaflets should be available in every officially recognised language is complete moot, because the only official languages of the Netherlands are Dutch and Frisian (and by extension Papiamento and English)

Plus of course since there is supposed to be free movement and free trade in Europe the official leaflets really should be available in every oficially recognised language in the EU.This argument is moot as well as neither Arabic nor Turkish are official EU languages.
I'm sure that if you want a leaflet in Bulgarian or Slovakian or Estonian you'd have a very hard time finding one. While if you want a leaflet in the non-EU-languages of Turkish or Arabic you just have to look and they are there.

Last time I checked, this land was supposed to be free. And yes, that also includes freedom of religion. Freedom is always the freedom of the other. It is for ALL the people, EQUALLY, otherwise you DON'T HAVE IT. All that should matter is that people uphold the law. You have no business to decide who goes and who stays based on how they "behave", as long as they don't break the law. Now can you please point out where I used the word "religion" or "Islam"?
That's right - I didn't. This isn't a religious question so please don't make it one.

The real problem is that too often courts of justice are making excuses and giving quarters to criminals because they take their "cultural background" or some such into account. They are thereby promoting a condition in which some people, based on their heritage / community, feel less bound to the law than others, which is fatal. All people should be equal under the law, and the penalty should be more based on what they did as a crime, not where they come from or who their friends are.I can agree with this.
But there are also things that aren't in the law. Being a general ass may be legal, but should we accept it from a foreigner? If you rent someone a room in your house, and that someone turns out to be a complete ass, you throw him out. Why can't we do that with foreigners?

In addition, "throwing money at the problem" should stop immediately, too. It is far too easy in general in Germany to obtain social welfare money. A lot of people - that includes actual Germans, but the number is obviously disproportional in immigrant groups - have willingly settled or foolishly maneuvered themselves into a position where they are irrelevant for the job market and live from the tits of the welfare state. At the same time, many of those are working in clandestine employment, maximising the ripp off. There are whole family businesses working like that. This needs to stop. I agree with this. I'm a socialist, and I support social welfare money with all my heart, but you shouldn't get it if you don't do anything for it. If you can work, you should work.

And last but not least, I think our immigration laws are far too lax. We should look much more closely at WHO wants to come here, WHY and HOW they plan to support themselves once here. It should be a lot more in their own responsibility to be successfull here than that of the state. You would naturally cater to those more constructive individuals by adhering to what I wrote above: Stop throwing money at the problem.I agree with this.

@DarkFish
3rd generation Turks, in Germany, can't be considered "guests" anymore. You can't send them "home". They are there already. As Skybird says, they don't see themselves as German. If they speak Turkish and have the Turkish culture, one can question how "German" they actually are.
3rd generation, or 2nd generation for that matter, or even 1st generation Turks that speak German and behave like a German can't be called "guests" as far as I'm concerned. But the people that don't are exactly that.

12-31-10, 09:35 AM

What?
Too many Russians, Ethiopians or Haredi?

Quite other way around dont pretend that you know something.
Muslims are trouble here because of their all too fragile religious feelings and archaic blame the world or better Israel for all my trouble mentality which is carefully nursed by religius leaders.
First step to solve a problem is to realize that it exist.

Tribesman

12-31-10, 11:10 AM

Quite other way around dont pretend that you know something.

So you are ridiculously trying to claim that each of those groups and their inflow into Israel have not been long running bones of contention within the country?
Next you will be telling me that there havn't been serious issues between Separdi and Askenazi since before the formal creation of the State:doh:

German. I don't care how much of a Turkish accent they have, but German. I don't care how many spelling errors they make, but German. I don't care if their grammar is at the same level as of a 3 year old kid, but German.

What German? come on you said Germany and all things germanic was a favourite subject of yours, so which German language?

Well for starters Germans don't go shouting around like fishwifes pretending they are somehow more important than the people around them.
Really??????
They don't hit their women.
wow??????
They don't keep their women dressed up like a nun.
A nun? thats a christian thing isn't it.
Oh of course you mean the very very small number of women that go for the middle eastern traditional style.
They don't let their kids freaking steal and wreak havoc to the neighbourhood.
Bloody hell, where were you when all we was hearing was about the thieving ostlanders and their swarming degenerate offspring?
They respect our system of politics and don't intimidate or attack people whom they not agree with.

Bugger me sideways, are you serious?????? do you live under a rock?

Yet while Frisians are expected to speak Dutch, as you won't find any Frisian on official leaflets
Oh dear, is this going to be another case of "dutch churches don't ring bells"?
Would you perhaps like to check on the status of the official and regional languages of the Netherlands and their applicability in areas such as literature from government and administration especially as all of those publications would come under the "official leaflets" which you complained about.

This argument is moot as well as neither Arabic nor Turkish are official EU languages.

Correct, I don't see Cyprus pushing for its language to be recognised anytime soon though I do see Spain recognising Berber and Arabic shortly.

12-31-10, 11:39 AM

So you are ridiculously trying to claim that each of those groups and their inflow into Israel have not been long running bones of contention within the country?
Next you will be telling me that there havn't been serious issues between Separdi and Askenazi since before the formal creation of the State:doh:.
I see you have some interest in Israeli history but have things a little bit twisted.
The issues between sefaradi and ashkenazi Jews existed during 50 to 70 mostly.During and after emigration of Jews from Arab states.
The issues still exist but mostly in orthodox communities while the mix of both is current Israeli culture.
This should be a topic for another thread i guess.and has sothing to do with current thread.

Diopos

12-31-10, 11:56 AM

@ Skybird.
I just wanted to point out that the pre-existing problem of Turks "incorporating" into German society is now also influenced by the "West - Islam Conflict(?)". But, to put it blundly, it is now an internal problem of German society. And of course how you solve your problem, is primarily your issue. But because we are talking about Germany here, the solution you will eventually choose will echo all around Europe and influence us all.

.

DarkFish

12-31-10, 09:12 PM

What German? come on you said Germany and all things germanic was a favourite subject of yours, so which German language?You surely know the difference between "Germanic" and "German"? Cause if you do you clearly can't read or didn't bother to. I've never said Germany is a favorite subject of mine. I was talking about the old Germanic tribes.
And as for what German, for the umpteenth time I don't care. Low German, High German, one of the countless subdialects, I really don't care. If it's German it's fine (and you surely don't claim that there's no such thing as a German language?)

Really??????
[...]
wow??????Is that your whole argument? Not much of an argument at all, is it?

A nun? thats a christian thing isn't it.
Oh of course you mean the very very small number of women that go for the middle eastern traditional style.Oh yes, and because some christian extremists wear headscarfs it's immediately a part of German culture:roll:
Very very small number? Then how can you explain that something like half of all Turkish/Arabic women I see wear headscarfs?

Bloody hell, where were you when all we was hearing was about the thieving ostlanders and their swarming degenerate offspring?Who do you mean with ostlanders? Poles?
Anyways, people should not steal. Immigrants should certainly not steal. No matter where they come from or what religion they adhere to.

Immigrants are generally more criminal. You want statistics? Why don't you try http://www.rtl.nl/%28/actueel/rtlnieuws/binnenland/%29/components/actueel/rtlnieuws/2005/04_april/23/binnenland/0423_1930_criminelen.xml? To quote from the article (translated): "In 37% of all criminal cases the main suspect is an alien."
Wait, what? 37%?! Aliens by far do not make up 37% of our population.

Bugger me sideways, are you serious?????? do you live under a rock?A rock that is apparently so big that I've seen it on multiple occasions. I've even experienced it myself. My dad is a supporter of Geert Wilders, so right before the elections he had an election poster taped on our window. First some Turkish pricks come knocking on our door demanding my mum to take it down, swearing at her when she refused. Next they come threatening us. A few days later a rock had miraculously made its way through our window at night.

Oh dear, is this going to be another case of "dutch churches don't ring bells"?
Would you perhaps like to check on the status of the official and regional languages of the Netherlands and their applicability in areas such as literature from government and administration especially as all of those publications would come under the "official leaflets" which you complained about.I certainly hope this is going to be another case of "dutch churches don't ring bells" (something I never claimed BTW). Your main argument in that case was basically that somehow my ears were disfunctional. Well, I can assure you they aren't, thank you very much.

Anyway, to get back on the point of languages, legally speaking there isn't any official language here. So legally speaking your argument is even more complete moot than it already was.
In popular usage the Netherlands does have official languages, and neither Turkish nor Arabic are one of them.

Tribesman

01-01-11, 05:44 AM

And as for what German, for the umpteenth time I don't care. Low German, High German, one of the countless subdialects, I really don't care. If it's German it's fine
So they can speak any of the languages of Germany (or any other european language for that matter) , yet it doesn't matter if no one they are talking to can understand a word they say as that is perfectly acceptable as long as they don't speak one of two other languages
Can you point out how such a requirement could in any way be positive or useful and what possible benefit it could yield?

Is that your whole argument? Not much of an argument at all, is it?

They are short and to the point, it was the best possible answer to those ridiculous things you wrote.
Though perhaps you fail to understand how ludicrous your two statements were, after all people wouldn't write really silly statements if they realised they were really silly statements would they.

Oh yes, and because some christian extremists wear headscarfs it's immediately a part of German culture
:har::har::har::har:nuns:har::har::har::har:
BTW some parts of the Netherlands still hold on to dutch culture don't they, little distinctive things in some of the fishing villages...like women carrying on the local dutch tradition of keeping the head covered.
Can you explain why immigrants must adapt to dutch culture when the dutch are throwing their culture away, after all you ain't insisting on a return to traditional fashion or for the banning of it for some people in holland so why are you insisting that others do so?

Very very small number? Then how can you explain that something like half of all Turkish/Arabic women I see wear headscarfs?

Can you provide an academic study for your claim?
It is easily explained darkfish, its your perception which warps and gives you such views.

Who do you mean with ostlanders? Poles?

You are young ain't you.
They were germans in errrr.....germany.:up: which is why it was a perfect example
Though of course now you hear the same crap said about poles portugese greeks italians bulgarians romanians slovaks......just like you always hear the same crap about every bloody nationality or group since the earliest recorded histories.

Immigrants are generally more criminal. You want statistics?
Statistics can say many different things and generalities are not a very good thing to go on when you want specifics.
After all going on generalities you end up with stereotypes which are a indication of closed minded bigotry and I know you are not as warped in the mind as skybird so you should be able to avoid that pitfall.
"In 37% of all criminal cases the main suspect is an alien."

Interesting.
Wait, what? 37%?! Aliens by far do not make up 37% of our population.

Very interesting.
As you have previously displayed a severe ignorance of your laws and gone out of your way to show that you din't know the difference between a verdict of guilty and not guilty could you perhaps explain in simple terms the meaning of the word..."suspect".

A rock that is apparently so big that I've seen it on multiple occasions.
Take a look at German politics. Same crap as you are complaining about.....but done by germans.

I certainly hope this is going to be another case of "dutch churches don't ring bells" (something I never claimed BTW). Your main argument in that case was basically that somehow my ears were disfunctional. Well, I can assure you they aren't, thank you very much.

No, my arguement was that your perception was warped and you were making sweeping generalisations about specifics while being totally ignorant of the specifics

Anyway, to get back on the point of languages, legally speaking there isn't any official language here. So legally speaking your argument is even more complete moot than it already was.

Oh dear, you manage to take a small step forward then hit a mental block and jump back even further than where you started from.

01-01-11, 06:29 AM

It seems some Dutch try to be more GERMAN than Germans while defending Dutch idenity or is it all the same?

DarkFish

01-01-11, 11:47 AM

It seems some Dutch try to be more GERMAN than Germans while defending Dutch idenity or is it all the same?What the freaking heck are you talking about?

So they can speak any of the languages of Germany (or any other european language for that matter) , yet it doesn't matter if no one they are talking to can understand a word they say as that is perfectly acceptable as long as they don't speak one of two other languages
Can you point out how such a requirement could in any way be positive or useful and what possible benefit it could yield?Nice twisting of my words mister. You know perfectly well what I mean.

They are short and to the point, it was the best possible answer to those ridiculous things you wrote.
Though perhaps you fail to understand how ludicrous your two statements were, after all people wouldn't write really silly statements if they realised they were really silly statements would they.That's the easiest way of discussing, isn't it? Just state your opponent's claims are false and not provide any evidence for it.
I'm very sorry, but just because you say something is false it doesn't automatically make it false.

:har::har::har::har:nuns:har::har::har::har:
BTW some parts of the Netherlands still hold on to dutch culture don't they, little distinctive things in some of the fishing villages...like women carrying on the local dutch tradition of keeping the head covered."Dutch" tradition? Tradition of one or two places in the bible belt yeah.

Can you explain why immigrants must adapt to dutch culture when the dutch are throwing their culture away, after all you ain't insisting on a return to traditional fashion or for the banning of it for some people in holland so why are you insisting that others do so?Whaddyamean throw our culture away? I just explained to you it isn't part of Dutch culture at all.

Can you provide an academic study for your claim?
It is easily explained darkfish, its your perception which warps and gives you such views.Statistics are hard to find, all I could find was this wikipedia page (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoofddoek)which mentions that 46.9% of all Turkish women wears a headscarf (you're welcome to search for other statistics). Very close to the 50% I mentioned, isn't it? So far for my "warped perception"....

You are young ain't you.
They were germans in errrr.....germany.:up: which is why it was a perfect exampleJeez, of course there are criminal Germans as well. I never denied that. Which is why it is a perfect example for nothing.:roll:

Statistics can say many different things and generalities are not a very good thing to go on when you want specifics.
After all going on generalities you end up with stereotypes which are a indication of closed minded bigotry and I know you are not as warped in the mind as skybird so you should be able to avoid that pitfall.Yes, statistics can often be read in a number of ways. But that doesn't make them false.

So far I haven't seen *you* produce any evidence for your claims. Are you going to? Because if all you can contribute to this discussion is your own opinion that you present as truth, it's not much of a discussion, is it?

Interesting.
[...]
Very interesting.Very interesting indeed.

As you have previously displayed a severe ignorance of your laws and gone out of your way to show that you din't know the difference between a verdict of guilty and not guilty could you perhaps explain in simple terms the meaning of the word..."suspect".I remember you claimed to be some expert on Dutch law? If so you can surely agree with me that there is a certain principle called "innocent until proven guilty". So until a suspect is convicted it isn't anything more than a suspect, no matter how guilty he is. Because not everyone in these statistics was convicted yet they couldn't call them anything else.

No matter how you look at these statistics, they're different from what you'd expect. These statistics either mean that either lots of immigrants by chance happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, the justice system is severely bigoted, or aliens are more criminal. I'd say the latter is most likely.

Take a look at German politics. Same crap as you are complaining about.....but done by germans.I'm not talking about German politics, I'm talking about what I have seen in my life. I come from a poor leftist neighbourhood with about a 70% Dutch and 30% Turkish population. I find it rather remarkable that we have only been harassed and threatened by Turks, while there are at least twice as much political opponents of my dad of Dutch heritage.

No, my arguement was that your perception was warped and you were making sweeping generalisations about specifics while being totally ignorant of the specificsYes, my witnessing the Dutch customs everyday makes me totally more ignorant of the specifics than you:yep:

Oh dear, you manage to take a small step forward then hit a mental block and jump back even further than where you started from.Oh dear, your claim is suddenly not valid anymore so you just start spewing random crap about me jumping back:doh:

Tribesman

01-02-11, 01:08 AM

Nice twisting of my words mister. You know perfectly well what I mean.

I know perfectly well what you mean, and I know that it doesn't really make any sense.

That's the easiest way of discussing, isn't it? Just state your opponent's claims are false and not provide any evidence for it.

Those two claims were so ludicrous it is self evident that they were complete nonsense.

"Dutch" tradition? Tradition of one or two places in the bible belt yeah.

A Dutch tradition that still existss in a few Dutch places.
So that would be a Dutch tradition as it is a Dutch tradition and its Dutch because its in the Netherlands and the people whose tradition it is are errrrr.....Dutch.

Whaddyamean throw our culture away? I just explained to you it isn't part of Dutch culture at all.

No you didn't, you demonstrated yourself having a mental block again.

Statistics are hard to find, all I could find was this wikipedia page (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoofddoek)which mentions that 46.9% of all Turkish women wears a headscarf (you're welcome to search for other statistics). Very close to the 50% I mentioned, isn't it? So far for my "warped perception"....

Interesting link, did you notice the bit in there about Dutch culture:har::har::har::har:.
As for your statisitics, they are meaningless, you made a claim about Turkish and Arabic women you see, so a statistic about all turkish women means nothing.
Besides which you need to explore the warped perception angle as the simple fact is you notice headscarfs more rather than see them more.

So far I haven't seen *you* produce any evidence for your claims.
So far I havn't had to as you dig yourself into a hole.

Jeez, of course there are criminal Germans as well. I never denied that. Which is why it is a perfect example for nothing.
Sorry but you did, which is why it was a perfect example.
You made lots of claims about Turks doing things, added the qualification that of course not all Turks do those things but made the very foolish claim that Germans don't do those things:doh:

I remember you claimed to be some expert on Dutch law?
Why do you have to lie? I said you appeared to know bugger all about the dutch laws at issue and you proved me correct by not even being able to understand the law or even identify the correct branch of laws even thogh your fathers summons and specific charge was on the link.

If so you can surely agree with me that there is a certain principle called "innocent until proven guilty".
Excuse me, you claimed a verdict of guilty was really a not guilty verdict.

So until a suspect is convicted it isn't anything more than a suspect, no matter how guilty he is. Because not everyone in these statistics was convicted yet they couldn't call them anything else.

Well done.
Now see if you can understand how those figures are reached?
After all a reported suspect only means one thing:know:

No matter how you look at these statistics, they're different from what you'd expect.
Not at all, if anything I would have expected them to be higher, as I said above, they only mean one thing.

I'm not talking about German politics, I'm talking about what I have seen in my life.
Sorry, your claim was that Germans don't do that sort of thing.
See what I mean about digging yourself into a hole.

Yes, my witnessing the Dutch customs everyday makes me totally more ignorant of the specifics than you
It certainly did, all you had to do was look and think but you simply wouldn't as to do so would have demolished your own claims.

Oh dear, your claim is suddenly not valid anymore so you just start spewing random crap about me jumping back
Do you even realise what you had written and what it related to that you had previously written?

Gammelpreusse

01-02-11, 02:46 AM

Stances in this thread reminds me of "all Germans are Nazis" blames.

I had two basic experiences with Turks.

One in school, where I got bullied regularly on my way home through a Turkish quarter. Kinda left a bad impression

Second at work, where the two Turks we had were as cool and geeky as the rest of us. Cool guys, highly creative and more work ethics then most Germans in their 30ies growing up in liberal lala land 80ies. Left some highly positive impressions. Unluckily the latter two by now moved out of the country for various reasons. Constant bad tasted jokes and comparisons to the first group mentioned here amongst them. It went as far that those two guys adopted the stereotypes, so much ppl expected them to be this way anyways. Nothing radical, just a constant reminder that they were different, even if they were not.

What does this tell us, and what conclusions can be drawn here?

P.S. Remarks that some political parties want to get rid of Germany are a bad joke and show more ideological confrontation then objectivity. Even "die Linke" is comfortable with Germany these days. Would be better if they actually weren't just to get a bit more variety into politics instead of this huge big conformist mud.

P.P.S. I can trace my family roots back to the 15th century, when my folks came into Germany from the Austrian parts of the Holy Roman Empire. It's getting blurry before that. Throw in some Habsburg bastard blood and it is as German as you can get. Can't offer blue eyes nor blonde hair, though. Can't exactly say I can appreciate historic late comer Prussia defining what Germans have to look and behave like. On top of it, I seriously can't stand a couple typically german traits. It's the 21th century, for gods sake, and just because there is some economic crisis and the typical radicalization coming with such times there is no reason to throw understanding and common sense out of the window for the sake of simple/convenient conclusions.

Tribesman

01-02-11, 03:10 AM

What does this tell us, and what conclusions can be drawn here?
The most obvious and the most telling explains why 2nd 3rd or 4th generation descendants of immigrants sometimes behave like they do.
Their parents fitted in, worked like hell, adapted to their new surroundings and tried to better themselves, but still got treated on a regular basis like excrement.
How on earth would someone expect a positive reaction from native born descendants of immigrants when they and their parents are still treated as dumb thieving foriegn scum by ignorant bigots who only deal in stupid meaningless stereotypes.

just because there is some economic crisis and the typical radicalization coming with such times there is no reason to throw understanding and common sense out of the window for the sake of simple/convenient conclusions
Well said.
Common sense does tend to go out the window very easily.

Gammelpreusse

01-02-11, 03:44 AM

The most obvious and the most telling explains why 2nd 3rd or 4th generation descendants of immigrants sometimes behave like they do.
Their parents fitted in, worked like hell, adapted to their new surroundings and tried to better themselves, but still got treated on a regular basis like excrement.
How on earth would someone expect a positive reaction from native born descendants of immigrants when they and their parents are still treated as dumb thieving foriegn scum by ignorant bigots who only deal in stupid meaningless stereotypes.

A bit overblown. It's way more subtle, in reality.

I always had a problem with the argument that Islamic folks are incompatible with western values. That arguments gets blown out of the water by recognizing that the second generation of turkish immigrants actually did their best to integrate, and only parts of the latter generations went back to radicalization. Something must have happened there and I have a problem of blaming this development only on immigrants children. Integration always is a two way street, those that need to make the effort to integrate (Do not get me wrong, that requirement is there. Learning German and adopting the values is a precondition for integration) and those that actually appreciate and honor that effort. Both is rather missing in many circles of German society today. What came first is a matter of debate, but cause and effect always is there.

It may also have to do with the fact that Germans showed a distinct lack of national pride in the past. That has changed profoundly the last 5 years or so, but that is too short a time span to make an impact to today's problems. Who wants to join a Nation that is defined by shame and self flagellation, after all?
And who do you want to blame for this problem? IMHO the issue is way more complex then ppl wish it to be, and lacks an honest attempt to analyze and find solutions.

Then again, and given that the word "race" has had a big comeback lately even in German mainstream media I wonder how much of old attitudes just lay dormant under a big pile of PC. Germany certainly has not developed more enlightend over the last 2 decades. Maybe reunification brought back some viewpoints that were never addressed in the former East Germany. That may also have to do with the fact that especially eastern Germany, with the lowest numbers of immigrants in all of Germany, is the most xenophobic one as well. Odd, if you think about it, but the liberal and future orientated achievements of the old BRD is currently getting replaced by more general 30ies attitudes (before the Nazis came to power). That one most certainly has to do with reunification and a need to find common ground, and Weimar is the last time Germans in one country could be comfortable with themselves. This development is understandable and to be expected in such a situation, but is subtle and lacks active debate, it just happens without anybody really realizing. The huge and sudden burst of anti EU and Euro sentiments also point in that direction. Most of these attitudes are only superficially based on facts and objectivity, most is based on raw and unreflected emotions.

P.S. I just remembered another observation. In the company I worked for, I had a long debate with a guy of italian/polish background. He came to Germany at the age of 5, speaks perfect german, blonde hair, blue eyes, christian background, also lots of work ethics. At the age of 24 he already got into a meeting with Electronic Arts about a project he envisioned. He could be considered the perfect immigrant. Yet even he considers himself almost radically polish and wants to move back soon. Apparently he faced the same problems many turks experienced in their childhood, mockery for his background. This debate started a thought process that got me to today's conclusions. What folks experience in their childhood obviously has a profound effect on their world views in later ages and expecting them to behave rational would require to be rational oneself, first.

Gerald

01-02-11, 06:06 AM

http://i.imgur.com/LMuYA.jpg

Feuer Frei!

01-02-11, 07:10 AM

http://i.imgur.com/LMuYA.jpg

I see what ya did tharr! :03:

Gerald

01-02-11, 07:18 AM

I see what ya did tharr! :03: I'm getting hungry, :yep:

Feuer Frei!

01-02-11, 07:34 AM

I always had a problem with the argument that Islamic folks are incompatible with western values.

The integration of Muslims into Western society has failed, and will never occur to the extent necessary for them to function successfully in Western society. The reason is that a vast majority of them have not fulfilled all three of the criteria that are necessary for becoming members of, and feeling at home in, our non-Islamic societies:

Wanting to integrate
Being allowed to integrate
Being able to integrate

Firstly, we must ask ourselves: Why should Muslims want to integrate? They're sure to receive all possible welfare benefits, whether they educate themselves, work, learn our language, acknowledge Western values and mix socially with the native population, or not. Lack of integration does not involve any risk of becoming socially or culturally isolated, because there are ample opportunities to live with others in a parallel society where all share the same cultural norms as themselves.
Secondly, it is important to know that Muslim culture is dominated by extreme social and religious control. Because of the great differences (and often even incompatibilities) that exist between Western culture and the Muslim way of life, it is commonplace for members of the Muslim community to see true integration - including making use of basic human rights and freedoms to freely chose one’s clothing, sexual partners, religion, geographic location, lifestyle, etc - as being forms of religious and/or cultural apostasy.

Thirdly, integration is difficult for Muslims. The cultural and educational level of our high-tech knowledge society is very high. In the West, we are expected to regulate our own behaviour without having an aggressive God, an unpleasant Hell, all pervading social control, and aggressive male authorities to set the borders of what is and what is not acceptable and to motivate us towards constructive actions.
Integration does not mean giving up your religion, culture, ideals or principles. It means accepting that you have a positive role to play in the society you are a member of.

Skybird

01-02-11, 08:12 AM

Feuer Frei! ,

^ :yeah: Very well said.

I just again would add and remind of the fact that it is not only a problem of Islamic ideology and indoctrination by it's different and supremacist values, but also - on a level beside Islam - a problem of patriarchalic social structures, and macho-cult, both of wich are helped and fostered by Islamic ideology, but not exclszuively caused by it. Even without Islam existing, they would pose problems, just maybe not on that scale as they actually do.

Gammelpreusse

01-02-11, 08:13 AM

The integration of Muslims into Western society has failed, and will never occur to the extent necessary for them to function successfully in Western society. The reason is that a vast majority of them have not fulfilled all three of the criteria that are necessary for becoming members of, and feeling at home in, our non-Islamic societies:

Wanting to integrate
Being allowed to integrate
Being able to integrate

Firstly, we must ask ourselves: Why should Muslims want to integrate? They're sure to receive all possible welfare benefits, whether they educate themselves, work, learn our language, acknowledge Western values and mix socially with the native population, or not. Lack of integration does not involve any risk of becoming socially or culturally isolated, because there are ample opportunities to live with others in a parallel society where all share the same cultural norms as themselves.
Secondly, it is important to know that Muslim culture is dominated by extreme social and religious control. Because of the great differences (and often even incompatibilities) that exist between Western culture and the Muslim way of life, it is commonplace for members of the Muslim community to see true integration - including making use of basic human rights and freedoms to freely chose one’s clothing, sexual partners, religion, geographic location, lifestyle, etc - as being forms of religious and/or cultural apostasy.

Thirdly, integration is difficult for Muslims. The cultural and educational level of our high-tech knowledge society is very high. In the West, we are expected to regulate our own behaviour without having an aggressive God, an unpleasant Hell, all pervading social control, and aggressive male authorities to set the borders of what is and what is not acceptable and to motivate us towards constructive actions.
Integration does not mean giving up your religion, culture, ideals or principles. It means accepting that you have a positive role to play in the society you are a member of.

I'd agree to you if I were convinced what you describe here are root causes, not just symptoms of a deeper problem. The debate over integration has indeed developed in the direction you explained, but it leaves some other points unanswered.

First one, as stated before, the first and second generation actually tried to integrate, despite the conditions you describe present back then as well.

So the question remains, what happened that the third and forth generations went back to Islam, and not even their parents Islam, but a radicalized and idealized form of Islam more found in the internet then in reality?

Why is it that those Germans with a Muslim background that actually managed to get a higher education and accepting German values, why is it that exactly these folks are leaving the country again?

You know I'd like to have a simple world view where a whole group of people can be described with three simple sentences and thus propper solutions as well, would make the issue a lot simpler to resolve. But those points described above above keep nagging me all the time.

Tribesman

01-02-11, 08:54 AM

Feuer frei.
Most of your arguement is pretty identical to just about every arguement put forward about practicly every group of immigrants since the beginning of history.
As such it is pretty much total bollox just like it has been throughout history, but of course Skybird likes it and thinks its "very well said" as he has this thing about blacks and muslims and arabs and africans and turks and of course germans that ain't the right sort of germans:rotfl2:

Skybird

01-02-11, 09:00 AM

First one, as stated before, the first and second generation actually tried to integrate, despite the conditions you describe present back then as well.

Did they? There were many gust workers since the 50s, from Jugoslavia, Greece, Italy, Turkey. Most Yugos, Greek and Italians sooner or later went back and never had the itnention to stay forever, and those who stayed all in all generally are well-integrated. Just the Turks came to stay forever, and one must doubt yopur claim that they tried toi integrate from beginning on. They stayed separate from beginning on, and this separatism is the reason why parallel society formed up which isolated themselves from German main society. This found its impression in fialing school education for the offsprings from these families, even more since these parents are not used to help in school-educating their kids like it is necessary, not helping them to adopt foreign customs and culture, and did not care much for what happened at sachool. Result: lower chances for school diploma, and job chances. Social decline. Result from that: growing isolationism, a group feeling of "us" against "them". "Us" means "us poor Muslim victims, the reatest and most misunderstood victims of all history", "them" means "those pig-eating hell-doomed Scheißdeutsche", "those German slutty whores" that make "so marvellous a f#ck". At the same time they are refused in their Turkish home country as well.

And then comes Mr. Islam and says: "By simply converting to my teaching or being an obedient vasall to me, you will no longer a looser, but belong to a special group of people that will rule the world and that are preferred by God that loves them, and you will be loved by all your brothers and sisters and you will be the Herren of the world to which all other humans that are infidels are inferior, and must bow their knees". Dadda-Bang! Bull's Eye! All for free! As a Muslim, all of a sudden you are somebody, from nothing to jackpot in no time!

Turks form the overwhelming majority of Muslim people in Germany. There must be reason why in Germany other foreigners try better to imntegrate and for the most are better integrated and are not overreporesented in negative statistics (education, job, crime), like Muslim groups. It is not that Germans said: "Back then we kicked the Jews, no we slap the Muslims".

Has it ever come to your mind that not only they do not wish to integrate,m but that germans have a good reason to remain sceptical of them anbd not wanting them in return? The social engineering experiment of turning the totalitarian, moncultural ideology of Islam into a tolerant, multicultural message of peaceful living togteher on the basis of equal rights not only for Islam (which constantly demands special status and special rights), but for ALL, has failed not becasue Germans slap all migrants. we have massive problems not with migrants in general, but with Muslim migrants - a majority of them. And it has become an extremely costly economical problem as well.

Why is it that those Germans with a Muslim background that actually managed to get a higher education and accepting German values, why is it that exactly these folks are leaving the country again?

You might be surprised that these are often those Muslims who were willing to integrate, were caring indeed for their kids getting good education - and who were warning the Germans time and again that they were too illusianl and too soft on not demanding the non-integrating Turks to integrate nevertheless, and sanctionise them if they do not. They tell us they we are too forgiving, and that we have a wrong, too friendly view of Islam! They see no chan ce for themselves in ermany due to the overburdened social systems and the fact that the non-integrating Muslims are those who defione the rules of how Muslim migrants behave in Germany. It is fair to say that many of those leaving Germany, not only flee from German intolerance, but flee from their own people.

BTW, we have a general brain drain and craftsmen drain in Germany, due to the bad labour market and low wages, if jobs are to be gotten. Especially doctors and craftsmen flee from Germany in significant numbers.

You know I'd like to have a simple world view where a whole group of people can be described with three simple sentences and thus propper solutions as well, would make the issue a lot simpler to resolve. But those points described above above keep nagging me all the time.

I realsie there are in diovidual exceptions from the rule. But they are not the majority, but a minority, and not even a big minority. They are not loud enough (cannot or do not wish to be) to keep those who actively refuse integration and demand special rights given to Turks and Islam in check. The active propagators of the non-integrators, also are not the majority. The majority are the many who hide and duck and stay silent and separate, passively refusing integration and relativisation of their Turkish values while living in a German cultural context. But this slent majority is a majority the activists can reliably count on - becasue by not dojng anatyhing against them the silent ones allow the activists to speak in their name and form the official "voice" of Islam in Germany. The political-Islamic panel the government has introduced two years ago, is dominated by the speakers from the Turkish national religion ministry (it'S proxy agencies in Germany), and small groups representing almost completely extremely radical groups and organisations - that do not officially speak fpor the majority of Muslims in Germany, but claim to do so. And the politicians accept, this, have banned several competent Muslim Islam-critics from the board for disturbing the illusion of peace and mutual tolerance, and swallow the lies the radicals are pouring into their ears. That way, the understanding of what Islam is and wants, gets constantly distorted and concealed. The silent majority, and the educated, integrated minority, do not much agaiunst this, if anything at all. Anbd where they do or apostates raise their voice from their ranks, warning thre Germans of trusting Islam and giving ground to it, they get bashed and witch-hunted through the village - not by Muslims, but the German left and the Greens and the Multikulti-faction and the PC brigade and the Eurocrats, and the german self-labelled pseudo-intellectual "elites", and of course the editors in the feuilletons of the newspapers.

Tribesman

01-02-11, 09:15 AM

I didn't realise sky could put so much crap in a single post.
The bugger is so confused you really almost have to pity the poor creature.
so they feel bad because they are just poor muslims and then they convert to become muslims which means they are muslims which are just poor muslims which are no longer muslims but jackpot winners who are muslims who converted from being muslims.
Hmmmmm tasty fruitcake.

Feuer Frei!

01-02-11, 09:44 AM

Feuer frei.
Most of your arguement is pretty identical to just about every arguement put forward about practicly every group of immigrants since the beginning of history.
Arguement? Or fact? Of course it's identical.
About cultural clashes...since the beginning of time, and it will always be impossible to integrate 2 cultures.
As such it is pretty much total bollox just like it has been throughout history
Aha, bollox, the fact that throughout history cross-cultural integration has always been 'seemless' and fully successful.

DarkFish

01-02-11, 09:49 AM

I know perfectly well what you mean, and I know that it doesn't really make any sense.

Those two claims were so ludicrous it is self evident that they were complete nonsense.I have provided evidence for my claims. The burden of evidence is now on you. Just saying my claims are false is not going to work.

A Dutch tradition that still existss in a few Dutch places.
So that would be a Dutch tradition as it is a Dutch tradition and its Dutch because its in the Netherlands and the people whose tradition it is are errrrr.....Dutch.

No you didn't, you demonstrated yourself having a mental block again.Right.... and growing a beard is an American tradition because the Amish do so:doh:

Interesting link, did you notice the bit in there about Dutch culture:har::har::har::har:.I did. Did you?

As for your statisitics, they are meaningless, you made a claim about Turkish and Arabic women you see, so a statistic about all turkish women means nothing.I made an observation, using that observation to form a claim about Turkish and Arabic women in general. So a statistic about Turkish women in general exactly matches with what my claim was about. In case you didn't notice, the statistics back up what I claim.

Seriously, this is the fallacy of all fallacies. Person D claims X and presents evidence for it. Now person T claims the evidence is false because it proofs that X is true:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

Besides which you need to explore the warped perception angle as the simple fact is you notice headscarfs more rather than see them more.Indeed. Statistics show I see an astonishing 4% more headscarfs than there really are:eek:

So far I havn't had to as you dig yourself into a hole.Burden of evidence, Tribesman, burden of evidence....

Sorry but you did, which is why it was a perfect example.
You made lots of claims about Turks doing things, added the qualification that of course not all Turks do those things but made the very foolish claim that Germans don't do those things:doh:If you're under the impression that I made those claims you have misunderstood my claims as much as you can misunderstand them. Maybe I didn't write them down clearly enough so that your mind can grab its all too simple meaning, but I never meant to claim what you say I do.

Why do you have to lie? I said you appeared to know bugger all about the dutch laws at issue and you proved me correct by not even being able to understand the law or even identify the correct branch of laws even thogh your fathers summons and specific charge was on the link.What do you mean "lie"? Did you not claim to be some kind of expert on Dutch law?
Also your memory appears to fail. Maybe you want to see a doctor? As I told you at the time, my dad was originally charged with something else than the link said.

Excuse me, you claimed a verdict of guilty was really a not guilty verdict.And elephants are blue.

Well done.
Now see if you can understand how those figures are reached?
After all a reported suspect only means one thing:know:Yes I can. Apparently you can not.

But anyways, I've found another statistic which corrects for the size of the populations: http://www.cbs.nl/NR/rdonlyres/FA26E32C-250B-4D1D-B3B9-35085B6C48BC/0/2005verdachtvancriminaliteit.pdf (look at page 30-43)
Now the burden of evidence is even more on you than it already was.

Not at all, if anything I would have expected them to be higher, as I said above, they only mean one thing.They mean exactly one thing that you have proven unable to understand.

Sorry, your claim was that Germans don't do that sort of thing.
See what I mean about digging yourself into a hole.As I have said a few quote-blocks above, I didn't claim that. Now where's that hole you speak of?

It certainly did, all you had to do was look and think but you simply wouldn't as to do so would have demolished your own claims.Maybe I did look and think and the result of that backed up my claims. But the possibility of that escapes your small mind.

Do you even realise what you had written and what it related to that you had previously written?I do. Now do you realize what you had previously written?

Tribesman, I've provided more than enough evidence for my claims. The burden of evidence is now on you. Either provide some evidence, or I can't see why I'm still having this discussion.

Feuer Frei!

01-02-11, 09:50 AM

Further to adressing the thread title, ie staying on-topic:

The Muslim community has a responsibility to ease the path to integration. The Muslim communities in Germany have a long way to go.
Among a generation of Muslims born in Europe, significant numbers have nothing but contempt and disdain for their native lands, and allegiance only to the Muslim umma and the lands of their parents’ birth. Those who continue to arrive in Europe from Muslim countries are encouraged by the isolation, self-imposed and other-abetted, of the Islamic communities in Europe to hold to the same attitudes.
Understanding radical Islamism as a form of identity
politics also explains why second and third-generation European Muslims have turned to it. First-generation immigrants have usually not made a psychological
break with the culture of their land of birth and carry traditional practices with them to their new homes. Their children, by contrast, are often contemptuous of
their parents' religiosity, and yet have not become integrated into the culture of the new society. Stuck between two cultures with which they cannot identify, they find a strong appeal to the Universalist ideology of contemporary jihadism.
Islam is a belief which focuses on expansion
and which is fundamentally opposed to "Western values.
Muslim communities must be more
vocal against extremism, and actively counter rather than tolerate radical preachers.Young European Muslims of second or third generation who feel disenfranchised in a society that does not fully accept them and thus
search for a new identity, seem to be particularly inclined to a notably radical Islam.
Imams have frequently been educated and trained
abroad and are sometimes also paid by foreign institutions like the Diyanet, the Turkish religious authority. They are often unfamiliar with the morals and customs
of their European host countries and only stay for a limited time before going back to their countries of origin. In many cases these imams remain "outsiders" with little
interest to integrate into and understand the societies of their host-countries.

Muslims not only despise western secular values as decadent, materialistic, corrupt and immoral. They do not accept the distinction between the spiritual and the temporal, the division which in Christian societies confines religion to the margins of everyday life. Instead, for Muslims the whole of human life must represent a submission to God.
This means that they feel a duty to Islamicise the values of the surrounding culture.
Are we a western culture, or are we to become something else? If the latter, who is making the decision to wipe out our national identity? Because if we take in enough people who refuse to integrate and assimilate to western values, this belief system will not survive. Liberalism will then have disappeared up its own fundament.

Onkel Neal

01-02-11, 11:12 AM

Gammelpreusse

01-02-11, 12:03 PM

Did they? There were many gust workers since the 50s, from Jugoslavia, Greece, Italy, Turkey. Most Yugos, Greek and Italians sooner or later went back and never had the itnention to stay forever, and those who stayed all in all generally are well-integrated. Just the Turks came to stay forever, and one must doubt yopur claim that they tried toi integrate from beginning on. They stayed separate from beginning on, and this separatism is the reason why parallel society formed up which isolated themselves from German main society. This found its impression in fialing school education for the offsprings from these families, even more since these parents are not used to help in school-educating their kids like it is necessary, not helping them to adopt foreign customs and culture, and did not care much for what happened at sachool. Result: lower chances for school diploma, and job chances. Social decline. Result from that: growing isolationism, a group feeling of "us" against "them". "Us" means "us poor Muslim victims, the reatest and most misunderstood victims of all history", "them" means "those pig-eating hell-doomed Scheißdeutsche", "those German slutty whores" that make "so marvellous a f#ck". At the same time they are refused in their Turkish home country as well.

And then comes Mr. Islam and says: "By simply converting to my teaching or being an obedient vasall to me, you will no longer a looser, but belong to a special group of people that will rule the world and that are preferred by God that loves them, and you will be loved by all your brothers and sisters and you will be the Herren of the world to which all other humans that are infidels are inferior, and must bow their knees". Dadda-Bang! Bull's Eye! All for free! As a Muslim, all of a sudden you are somebody, from nothing to jackpot in no time!

Turks form the overwhelming majority of Muslim people in Germany. There must be reason why in Germany other foreigners try better to imntegrate and for the most are better integrated and are not overreporesented in negative statistics (education, job, crime), like Muslim groups. It is not that Germans said: "Back then we kicked the Jews, no we slap the Muslims".

Has it ever come to your mind that not only they do not wish to integrate,m but that germans have a good reason to remain sceptical of them anbd not wanting them in return? The social engineering experiment of turning the totalitarian, moncultural ideology of Islam into a tolerant, multicultural message of peaceful living togteher on the basis of equal rights not only for Islam (which constantly demands special status and special rights), but for ALL, has failed not becasue Germans slap all migrants. we have massive problems not with migrants in general, but with Muslim migrants - a majority of them. And it has become an extremely costly economical problem as well.

You might be surprised that these are often those Muslims who were willing to integrate, were caring indeed for their kids getting good education - and who were warning the Germans time and again that they were too illusianl and too soft on not demanding the non-integrating Turks to integrate nevertheless, and sanctionise them if they do not. They tell us they we are too forgiving, and that we have a wrong, too friendly view of Islam! They see no chan ce for themselves in ermany due to the overburdened social systems and the fact that the non-integrating Muslims are those who defione the rules of how Muslim migrants behave in Germany. It is fair to say that many of those leaving Germany, not only flee from German intolerance, but flee from their own people.

BTW, we have a general brain drain and craftsmen drain in Germany, due to the bad labour market and low wages, if jobs are to be gotten. Especially doctors and craftsmen flee from Germany in significant numbers.

I realsie there are in diovidual exceptions from the rule. But they are not the majority, but a minority, and not even a big minority. They are not loud enough (cannot or do not wish to be) to keep those who actively refuse integration and demand special rights given to Turks and Islam in check. The active propagators of the non-integrators, also are not the majority. The majority are the many who hide and duck and stay silent and separate, passively refusing integration and relativisation of their Turkish values while living in a German cultural context. But this slent majority is a majority the activists can reliably count on - becasue by not dojng anatyhing against them the silent ones allow the activists to speak in their name and form the official "voice" of Islam in Germany. The political-Islamic panel the government has introduced two years ago, is dominated by the speakers from the Turkish national religion ministry (it'S proxy agencies in Germany), and small groups representing almost completely extremely radical groups and organisations - that do not officially speak fpor the majority of Muslims in Germany, but claim to do so. And the politicians accept, this, have banned several competent Muslim Islam-critics from the board for disturbing the illusion of peace and mutual tolerance, and swallow the lies the radicals are pouring into their ears. That way, the understanding of what Islam is and wants, gets constantly distorted and concealed. The silent majority, and the educated, integrated minority, do not much agaiunst this, if anything at all. Anbd where they do or apostates raise their voice from their ranks, warning thre Germans of trusting Islam and giving ground to it, they get bashed and witch-hunted through the village - not by Muslims, but the German left and the Greens and the Multikulti-faction and the PC brigade and the Eurocrats, and the german self-labelled pseudo-intellectual "elites", and of course the editors in the feuilletons of the newspapers.

I've read all these articles in newspapers as well, over the time bringing up all those arguments you listed here. I mention this not to discredit your post, but to make clear I am pretty much aware of all the arguments brought forward in the general debate over immigration over the time. It's not a new debate, after all. However, claiming that all Turks came to stay indefinitely without ever willing to integrate is a bit over the top, to say the least. I'd rather say each individual turks had his own indivifual reason for doing things, just like modern germans emmigrating to other countries have their very own reasons for doing this. To make this out to be a concerted effort with some kind of master plan behind it which all Turks kinda followed is bold. I'd rather say this has more to do with Anatolian patriarch structures in many parts of the folks that came here then Islam, far removed from todays problems of radical Islam. The youth here today living their prtoblematic muslim lives are completely different from the folks that came here 40 or 50 years ago.

However, by now I pretty much started to distrust medias that have a growing tendency to write what ppl want to hear to get a better shareholder value by simply repeating and copying themselves then through thorough investigation, which pretty much leaves people to judge from personal experience.
And frankly, I yet have to meet a radical muslim. Thinking about it, I met more radical germans (aka NeoNazis) then radical Muslims. I also heared of more murder and acts of violence by Neonazis then the other way around. Yet they hardly dominate the news. A little tidbit also making me a bit suspicion about the motives behind the current muslim debate. Is this really about basic human rights and their acceptance or is it about foreign influences into German society and if there is a muezzin instead of a bell, and above all scapegoats over the current economic and political system crisis? Would not be a first one given Europes history since ancient times.
Both, btw, bells and muezins are getting onto my nerves, actually and I would instantly support a ban on either. Not on cultural grounds, but simply because I like it quiet on a Sunday.
Those questions should be cleared up before going on.

This is the first time I also ever heared about numbers in regards to the radicals and not integrating turks being a majority. I do not reject it, either, but I'd like to see some hard facts here. Any sources handy? Because it certainly does not reflect personal experiences.

I should also add that I couldn't care less of being german or living by german values. If people are cool, they are cool, if people are idiots, they are idiots, that is pretty much unrelated to ethnic or cultural background. Currently living in Frankfurt as a hotspot for foreign immigration gives some first hand experiences in people no matter where they come from. Besides, I yet have to hear a single propper definition of what German actually is, and please don't come up with Prussian values here. I respect those, but hardly consider them german, the same way bavarian drinking traditions hardly are german.

The one thing were I am completed on your side is a general decline in intellectual capability in recent decades, as it is less and less about long term solution seeking but short term emotional satisfaction. It's by far not a german problem alone these days when looking at the US, the UK, France and other countries with a more liberal tradition, but that hardly makes it any better. This change of attitude pretty much dominates every topic, be it the Euro, Europe, immigration, education etc. Demanding of others to completely assimilate while oneself staying home sipping a beer quite belongs to this. That is just going from the liberal extremes of the 80ies multikulti right to the other extreme; and neither does the situation any justice. As long this is about a superficial anaylsis of how all muslims are taking advantage of the german system while not willing to integrate WITHOUT also taking into account the problematics on the German side the debate will go in circles without a solution in sight. Societies never stay staitic, there is constant change and immigration into Germany is not a new phenomenon. In fact, it is as old as this very land itself.

And that is what the debate is about, right? Solutions? You won't find those with those constant blame games, be it immigrants, intellectuals, feuilletons or whatever.

Finally. The whole debate over muslim motives, and I am not talking radical islam here, but everyday muslim, kinda implies a concious throught process on the side of this religious group in regards to immigration. However, it is more probable those folks came here and just went along the development by adjusting to the presented conditions based on their own cultural upbringing and expiriences. To counter this, this process would have to be analyzed. You know, good old science and intellectual deduction instead of emotional rants. I always thought this ability is what makes the West stand apart from most of the rest of the world. Defending enlightenment by dropping to the levels of it's attackers kinda does not make sense.

Tribesman

01-02-11, 06:03 PM

I have provided evidence for my claims. The burden of evidence is now on you. Just saying my claims are false is not going to work.

No you didn't, regarding those two specific claims you made would you like me to go through the huge effort of finding a single case of theft by a german and a single case of wifebeating by a german to fully illustrate how self evidently nonsensical your claims were?

Right.... and growing a beard is an American tradition because the Amish do so
Yes it is, america is rather famous for its Amish communities and its traditions, though most would go for the buggies as the more noticable tradition
Though how you can possibly say that Dutch national and regional costume with its long Dutch history and development and its continuing existance as part of dutch culture with dutch people in the Netherlands is somehow not part of Dutch culture is really beyond comprehension.

Burden of evidence, Tribesman, burden of evidence....

The evidence I need is in your own words.

If you're under the impression that I made those claims you have misunderstood my claims as much as you can misunderstand them. Maybe I didn't write them down clearly enough so that your mind can grab its all too simple meaning, but I never meant to claim what you say I do.

It is very simple.
You could have written that some turks are criminals and wife beaters and some germans are criminals and wife beaters.
Instead you wrote some turks are criminals and wife beaters and germans are not criminals and wife beaters.
The problem you faced was writing the first means you had no valid point at all to make and writing the second means you make the point you want to make by simply lying.
To add to it you said no germans are loud shoutiong self important asses and no germans attack people over their views or politics.

What do you mean "lie"?
"Lie" as in write something that isn't true.
Did you not claim to be some kind of expert on Dutch law?

No, I said you knew bugger all about dutch law and council meetings.

Also your memory appears to fail. Maybe you want to see a doctor? As I told you at the time, my dad was originally charged with something else than the link said.

No he wasn't, he was arrested under a catch all offence and then charged with the real offence.
Do you know the difference between an arrest and being charged?:doh:
And elephants are blue.

And a conviction is an aquittal?????:rotfl2:
You really should stay out of the coffee shops.

Yes I can. Apparently you can not.

Obviously you don't, or like me you would have expected the proportion to be much higher.

But anyways, I've found another statistic which corrects for the size of the populations
Thats better, wow them Dutch colonials are real huge criminals, they put the morrocans to shame throughout the age categories don't they. Maybe thats their longer exposure to dutch culture eh

They mean exactly one thing that you have proven unable to understand.

No, those earlier figures was only about reported suspects which would only cover a very small proportion of crimes and would be very succeptible to warped perception, would lack specifics and carry a high proportion of false positives....which is why I expected the figures to be far higher.

As I have said a few quote-blocks above, I didn't claim that. Now where's that hole you speak of?

Oh dear...let me help you
Well for starters Germans don't go shouting around like fishwifes pretending they are somehow more important than the people around them. They don't hit their women. They don't keep their women dressed up like a nun. They don't let their kids freaking steal and wreak havoc to the neighbourhood. They respect our system of politics and don't intimidate or attack people whom they not agree with.

Now I'm not saying that every Turk behaves like that, but I sure know more Turks that do than that don't.

Maybe I did look and think and the result of that backed up my claims. But the possibility of that escapes your small mind.

Not at all as a simple look at some local priories would have shown you catholic orders still marking prayer times in such a manner or a stroll up into the lutherean belt which you seem to despise would show you plenty of churches carrying on the tradition.

@Feuer

Arguement? Or fact? Of course it's identical.

Yes, its a new year but its still the same old crap from time immemorial.

About cultural clashes...since the beginning of time, and it will always be impossible to integrate 2 cultures.

All cultures are a mixture of many cultures.

Aha, bollox, the fact that throughout history cross-cultural integration has always been 'seemless' and fully successful.
What on earth are you on about??????

@Neal
Come on, construct your arguement to counter his, but don't attack the poster.
Sorry, but how does a muslim convert to be a muslim so they are a muslim not a muslim?
Skybirds post was mainly nonsense.

DarkFish

01-02-11, 07:48 PM

Freaking hell tribesman, do you really not understand that when I said "no Germans" I meant "less Germans than Turks"? I'd say it's a pretty basic thing. It's a rhetorical technique called "hyperbole (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hyperbole)" (or in this case adynaton (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/adynaton)). In all my life I have not seen you correctly understand a hyperbole even once. You constantly and probably deliberately fail to recognize hyperboles in order to completely twist someones words.

Anyway, you constantly refuse to provide any counter-evidence to the evidence I provided. Either you do now, or this discussion is finished.

Yes it is, america is rather famous for its Amish communities and its traditions, though most would go for the buggies as the more noticable tradition
Though how you can possibly say that Dutch national and regional costume with its long Dutch history and development and its continuing existance as part of dutch culture with dutch people in the Netherlands is somehow not part of Dutch culture is really beyond comprehension.

[...]

Not at all as a simple look at some local priories would have shown you catholic orders still marking prayer times in such a manner or a stroll up into the lutherean belt which you seem to despise would show you plenty of churches carrying on the tradition.You're doing *exactly* what you're accusing me of. How can anyone possibly generalize more than you're doing here? "Some churches in the bible belt still ring their church bells every few hours so Dutch churches ring their bells every few hours." "Some people in the US grow beards because they're Amish, so growing beards because you're Amish is part of American culture." "People in some Dutch places used to wear weird costumes, so wearing weird costumes is part of Dutch culture".

Tribesman

01-02-11, 08:29 PM

Freaking hell tribesman, do you really not understand that when I said "no Germans" I meant "less Germans than Turks"?
So it is a case of you again using specifics where you are making generalisations and making generalisations when you want to deal with specifics.

In all my life I have not seen you correctly understand a hyperbole even once.
So you have to exaggerate to the extreme to try and make a point seem valid.
That suggests that your point is somewhat lacking validity.:yeah:

You're doing *exactly* what you're accusing me of. How can anyone possibly generalize more than you're doing here? "Some churches in the bible belt still ring their church bells every few hours so Dutch churches ring their bells every few hours."
Errrrr....you went to great lenths insisting that no churches in Holland did any such thing at all and that you should know because you live there.
Your arguement was that only muslims mark their prayer times with regular noise and it shouldn't be allowed because no one else does it.

BTW Those are not generalisations I did as they are all specifics and are all true. If I had said Amish traditions are the American culture or that there are no Amish traditions in american culture you would have a point

Its a pattern isn't it, you make complaints about things being so wrong and how they shouldn't be allowed as only one group does it, then spend ages trying to deny that your arguement clearly lacks a decent connection to reality.

Anyway, you constantly refuse to provide any counter-evidence to the evidence I provided. Either you do now, or this discussion is finished.

Use your own evidence from the report you posted, can you explain how the dutch christians from the Americas have such high crime rates as they ain't muslims or Turkish?
When you have worked that one out you might come back to the "reported suspects" figure you first posted and make a connection

DarkFish

01-02-11, 10:36 PM

So you have to exaggerate to the extreme to try and make a point seem valid.
That suggests that your point is somewhat lacking validity.:yeah:So a rhetorical device makes a point non-valid?

Errrrr....you went to great lenths insisting that no churches in Holland did any such thing at all and that you should know because you live there.Your proven inability to understand rhetorical devices explains why you think I did.

BTW wouldn't you agree that a native knows more about his culture than a foreigner? If not, all Irishmen dress as pink leprechauns and I'm right because I'm not Irish:yeah:

BTW Those are not generalisations I did as they are all specifics and are all true.:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

To help you here, I'll copy the definition of "culture":
"The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group"

Wait - *shared*? So the traditional practices of one or two villages are not part of a country's culture, simply because they aren't shared. If I was digging myself a hole before, you must be making a tunnel to China.

Its a pattern isn't it, you make complaints about things being so wrong and how they shouldn't be allowed as only one group does it, then spend ages trying to deny that your arguement clearly lacks a decent connection to reality.Nope, I collect evidence supporting that my claim does clearly have a connection to reality. Now if you don't bring in any counter-evidence, there's only evidence supporting my claim. Arguing has never been so easy.

Use your own evidence from the report you posted, can you explain how the dutch christians from the Americas have such high crime rates as they ain't muslims or Turkish?
When you have worked that one out you might come back to the "reported suspects" figure you first posted and make a connectionWell, you finally do provide some evidence:o Well done, tribesman! I must honestly say I underestimated you because I didn't think you would.

I assume with "Dutch Christians from the Americas" you mean immigrants from the Antilles/Suriname? The answer is very simple. They aren't members of the Dutch culture. Their culture is a strange mix of African, Ind(ones)ian, American and Dutch culture. So the high crimerates in said population say absolutely nothing about my claims, as those were about Dutch and Turkish culture. Other cultures simply fall outside them.

I would like to extend my claim however. Most firmly-established non-western (except Asian maybe) immigrant cultures in the Netherlands have higher crime rates than native Dutchmen. If anything this should make it easier for you. It doesn't matter in this case however, as the statistics you're talking about here only back up this new claim of mine.

As for your second question about the reported subjects, if the Dutch police is in your opinion so biased that just this bias alone explains these statistics, how can you explain that Indonesians for example are less likely to become a suspect than native Dutchmen?

Tribesman

01-03-11, 05:38 AM

So a rhetorical device makes a point non-valid?

It does when you try to defend what it says because you know it was nonsense in the first place

Your proven inability to understand rhetorical devices explains why you think I did.

No, your repeated insistance that none at all did it explains why.

To help you here, I'll copy the definition of "culture":

Nice try, so lame but nice try all the same.:har:
How many different definitions of culture regarding social traits can you find in a single dictionary?
So you mean "one of the defininitions" not "the definition".
Once again you are mixing specifics and generalisations.

Wait - *shared*? So the traditional practices of one or two villages are not part of a country's culture, simply because they aren't shared. If I was digging myself a hole before, you must be making a tunnel to China.

Oh dear, you really have a problem with language don't you.
The traditional cultural practices of places would not be part of a nations culture only if those places were not part of that nation:doh:

Nope, I collect evidence supporting that my claim does clearly have a connection to reality. Now if you don't bring in any counter-evidence, there's only evidence supporting my claim. Arguing has never been so easy.

Yet once again you have in your own post provided sufficient evidence to prove yourself wrong.
The fact that you cannot even realise it is what makes it so easy to prove you wrong with so little effort.

Well, you finally do provide some evidence:o Well done, tribesman! I must honestly say I underestimated you because I didn't think you would.

As I said, you provide all the evidence I need but don't realise it.

assume with "Dutch Christians from the Americas" you mean immigrants from the Antilles/Suriname?
You shouldn't assume, but you are not far off.

The answer is very simple.
I am afraid the answer is not simple at all.

They aren't members of the Dutch culture. Their culture is a strange mix of African, Ind(ones)ian, American and Dutch culture. So the high crimerates in said population say absolutely nothing about my claims, as those were about Dutch and Turkish culture. Other cultures simply fall outside them.

No, yes(but with no twice). Wrong, no not really. No.

So that shows how your "simple" answer is simply so wrong its almost a joke:yep:

I would like to extend my claim however. Most firmly-established non-western (except Asian maybe) immigrant cultures in the Netherlands have higher crime rates than native Dutchmen. If anything this should make it easier for you. It doesn't matter in this case however, as the statistics you're talking about here only back up this new claim of mine.

That wasn't a wise thing to do, extending your claims when you are doing so badly on your existing claims.
Can you define a native dutchman in terms of citizenship and culture?
It will relate back to some of your earlier claims which you destroyed yourself still don't realise it.

As for your second question about the reported subjects, if the Dutch police is in your opinion so biased that just this bias alone explains these statistics, how can you explain that Indonesians for example are less likely to become a suspect than native Dutchmen?
I really am beginning to feel sorry for you now Darkfish, several times you have insisted that you understand what reported suspects means, yet now again you demonstrate that you havn't the faintest idea and think its somehow the Dutch police being biased.:doh:
Not only that but you demonstrate your language problem again as from the pile of reasons I gave strangely you chose one reason that was not given by me and claim that it alone was the formation of my opinion.:know:

DarkFish

01-04-11, 09:43 AM

Tribesman, all your argument is based on either deliberately completely misunderstanding and twisting my words, or saying "you are wrong and that's so clear I don't need to provide evidence".
Discussing can have two possible goals. The first is to come to a new opinion by learning new insights into the problem. The second is to simply win the debate. The former is impossible because you bring in absolutely nothing constructive, the latter because with your way of discussing you could maintain the earth is flat if I told you otherwise. And I don't mean that as a compliment. Therefore I can see absolutely no use in continuing this discussion. This will be my last post in it and I hope you have the decency to refrain from posting as well, and lack the cowardice to do otherwise.

Tribesman

01-04-11, 02:33 PM

The former is impossible because you bring in absolutely nothing constructive
Thats just a language and perception problem on your part, all you have to do is follow the flow and join the dots, it is very easy.
the latter because with your way of discussing you could maintain the earth is flat if I told you otherwise.
Not without checking first:yeah:
Perhaps thats what you should do when someone questions what you have written:know:

Therefore I can see absolutely no use in continuing this discussion.
Just when we were getting somewhere.:har:
Two small questions if you have the balls to face them.
What does a foriegner look like and what is the legal status of people from the different parts of the Netherlands which other States might call colonies?
Amazingly both questions still relate to that perception thing and the first figures you posted which you still cannot understand even though it really is simple, plus they have the bonus of relating to the "culture" thing where you got one bit right and five bits wrong in your claim.

Penguin

01-06-11, 06:40 PM

This happens when I submerge some days from the forums: heated discussion, but some good posts:
Seems like the headline is indeed true, still a wrestle about the (multicultural) identity going on here...

my 2 eurocents, sorry for the wall of text, got longer than I expected:

First there is a little too much Dark-Fish-bashing here for my taste - I don't see him as an immigrant-hating madman who wants to promote a germanic master race. I think of him more in terms of a patriotic socialist - yes this is not a contradiction, there have been many of them, Willy Brandt being Germany's most famous example. I understand his way of thinking, that's why I said he can do better than over-generalisation. The Dutch always had a reputation of being a very liberal and tolerant society. Did the mentality change overnight, or isnt it much more that people learn from many negative experiences? I believe the latter.

There has always been migration to Germany, especially here in the Rhineland. A paper here had a series some time ago: why we have the most beautiful women here: it comes from thousands of years of mixing. We had the Romans here, the French, dozends of other visitors in the 30 year war. Then the immigration from eastern europe, mainly Poland in the 19th century, after WW2 many others. Of course also the inner-german migration, not to underestimate: many people here are closer to the Dutch than to the Bavarians - in their way of thinking and their cultural norms. This all contributed to the fact that we are a mutt race here and there is a certain mentality here that a stranger is not seen as a threat but as a victim for chit-chat. When you are sitting alone here, people will talk to you.

When we talk about generations, we should make clear what we are talking about. A 1st generation Turk from the 60s differs much from a 1st generation Turk from the 90s. That's why I prefer to talk about different eras. The people who came here in the 50s - about 1970 were integrated like ****. They were called guest-workers, most did blue-collar work, no need to learn much German, the intention was to leave after making some money. We all know live is always other than planned. Many stayed. Their children are the real 2nd generation, my generation, born in the 70s. Most of them speak perfect german without an accent. This comes from several factors: When the parents cared then they wanted a better life for their kids, many of those even refused to teach their children their native language. The 2nd gen grew up in predominantly german neighbourhoods, so they had to speak German in school as well as in everyday life. As far as criminal activities go, well I can only speak from my experiences, we all did much non-smart stuff in our youth *innocent looks* - Besides juvenile stupidity, class/wealth are also factors.

When people decide to stick to an idiotic culture, they do not want to mingle with people from this 2nd or 3rd gen. The women are much too westernized for their taste, they prefer import brides - preferably uneducated and religious, lovely combination! Little anecdote: When a co-worker of turkish descent finally got her german citizenship she first complained that it was a non-easy procedure. In the next moment she said that she however understands this, as the germans should not let every "Kanake" (n-word for turks) in. :D She meant exactly those people who I talked about in the previous sentence.

It is a lie that there are only the Turks causing problems here and all other nationals are well-integrated. I can show you a tamile, a russian, a german and a maroccan ghetto, all within 10kms. Go through a german city, tell me what ethnicity the dealers at the central station have or look up where most burglars or pickpocketers come from, if you know what I mean. An interesting article in the Spiegel stated that the worst integratedimmigrants are Italiens: many don't speak good german after generations, the school-drop out rate is high, though many live off welfare - all in higher percentages than the Turks. This does not match up with my experiences, but they did some reasearch.

I am far from a peace-loving tree-hugging kumbaya-singer. The problems are here, they are real and it does not help to marginalize or mute them. There are some quarters of towns going down. People move in who don't care about their community, the better-off leave, analogue to the american expression of "white flight". It is not comparatible to the US however. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, even the better-off immigrants don't want their kids to go to predominately foreign schools. We all live much closer together here in Europe - so if you are not a total ignorant, everyone should be aware of these problems. Especially people in the less well off neighbourhoods feel that they left alone. Our police is a joke, our justice system an even sadder one. Activities for juveniles become closed, social work funding cut down. Money for education? muhuahua, we got the ****ing banks to bail out!

I am not saying that it is only an issue of funding, but if money in key areas is denied then this is a matter of politics, or political will if you want to call it so.
Countries with traditions of immigration, like Canada and Australia have sensible policies regarding this isssue - in comparision to Germany of course. It seems here the politics does not want people coming here who can contribute something to its society.
During all the time, Germany never developed an immigration policy worth it's name. The debate goes on since I am political aware - like the german joke called "health reform": much talk, nothing gets done since decades.

Conclusions: dunno, I am just a grumpy old anti-everything guy...

Gerald

01-07-11, 10:21 AM

2 euro cents, it was a cheap reading :yep:

tater

01-07-11, 10:36 AM

I think the word "multicultural" is part of the problem. The notion of difference as being something to support. I prefer the old US notion of "melting pot." The former suggests preserving difference, the latter suggests integration. It's not just semantics, it does set an expectation, IMO.

People are more the same than different. Concentrating on difference—particularly in the realm of public policy—is a huge mistake, IMHO. No special rules to make the "different" able to fit in, or keep their difference. Integration is the only thing that matters. That means the new, "other" in the society needs to change to match the society—in return the society also changes a little, but the "mass" of society is bigger, it's like putting a liter of boiling water into the ocean, the ocean's temp rises very little indeed, and the liter of boiling water ends up effectively the same temp as the ocean. The onus is on the immigrant, not society. If you don't wish to become "german," don't move to Germany. Ditto immigration to the USA or anywhere else.

This means a rational immigration policy would try to sort for those willing to adapt. This doesn't mean abandoning their religion—though bumping atheists, or other apostates immigrating from the Islamic world to the front of the line makes perfect sense to me as they are far more likely to adapt to the secular west. It does mean that society should not bend over backwards to facilitate their religion. As I have said before, at least in the US where it is codified in the Constitution, strict separation of church and state is your friend. No special schools, nothing at all from the state that makes the immigrants "special" or otherwise unmixed into society. Integration, integration, integration. Western culture needs to be unescapable except by leaving.

Penguin

01-07-11, 05:08 PM

Vendor, please donate 20 öre to subsim for reading the last post :DL

tater, you made some good points.
When we first learned about the US in my english class in the 7th grade, the term melting pot was introduced to us. Our teacher then also elaborated the term salad bowl. In a salad bowl each pieces are still distinguishable. If you take this example further you can say that all the ingredients are held together by the bowl - this could be the constitution, while the dressing can be seen as the culture.

In the same year I was in London for the first time, it was really amazing for little Penguin to see that they have Sikh bobbies with turbans, who were 100% british, from the perfect english to the stiff upper lip - despite having a faith most Brits don't have.

Speaking about the US, you can also say that a Midwest farmer, a member of the gay community in SF or a Cajun in Lousiana all have different (sub)cultural norms, but also much more in common than with someone living in Tokyo.

The patriotism in the US looks often so strong to European eyes, however you think about it, it is also a unifying component, making it easy for immigrants to get a feeling to be part of the team.

I have no special love for my country nor for my fellow countrymen - no matter if they are german or foreigners. My most patriotic feelings are about our constitution, so maybe I am a constitutionalist, lol.
However I am planning to migrate to another country, I think when I am there I will raise its flag every morning, just because of thankfullness that this country is insane enough to let me in :D

So I have nothing against if people are not all the same, but as you stated right, it is the immigrant who has to live with the norms that are in his new country. Learning about its norms and language is such a minimalistic requirement that it's not even worth mentioning. Thnings like secularism or fundamental rights, as defined in the constitution are not debatable.

Gerald

01-07-11, 05:38 PM

I'll make a larger donation to SubSim, a 2 cents, :yep:

Skybird

01-07-11, 06:01 PM

Taboos and Fear among Muslim girls (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-737683,00.html)

About the abuse and the double lives many Muslim women in Europe need to live, while being betrayed and let down by the PC brigades who ignore their fates as well as the criticism of ex-Muslim apostates attacking them for their nice-talking of Islamic totalitarianism. Both do not meet the world view of the PC briagdes and put the PC's fantasies about Islam into question.

DarkFish

01-07-11, 07:50 PM

First there is a little too much Dark-Fish-bashing here for my taste - I don't see him as an immigrant-hating madman who wants to promote a germanic master race. I think of him more in terms of a patriotic socialist - yes this is not a contradiction, there have been many of them, Willy Brandt being Germany's most famous example. I understand his way of thinking, that's why I said he can do better than over-generalisation.Thanks for your support. I think of myself exactly like that as well.

The Dutch always had a reputation of being a very liberal and tolerant society. Did the mentality change overnight, or isnt it much more that people learn from many negative experiences? I believe the latter. I don't know for sure of course as I weren't there, but as far as I know the public opinion about immigrants used to be much better. If the opinion changed by coincidence, or by bad experiences? Who knows but the latter is certainly more likely.

There has always been migration to Germany, especially here in the Rhineland. A paper here had a series some time ago: why we have the most beautiful women here: it comes from thousands of years of mixing. We had the Romans here, the French, dozends of other visitors in the 30 year war. Then the immigration from eastern europe, mainly Poland in the 19th century, after WW2 many others.I agree we've got the most beautiful girls:DL
But is that because our girls are really more beautiful than girls from other "races", or because we've grown up with our idea of beauty? I think if you'd ask someone from Timbuktu how his ideal women would look like, he'd come up with a very different picture than I would.
Also, is this beauty purely because of all the mixing? If you take the Swedes for example, they've had much less mixing than Dutchmen/West Germans, but IMO their girls are among the most beautiful in the world, only second to Dutch and maybe West German girls.

Of course also the inner-german migration, not to underestimate: many people here are closer to the Dutch than to the Bavarians - in their way of thinking and their cultural norms. This all contributed to the fact that we are a mutt race here and there is a certain mentality here that a stranger is not seen as a threat but as a victim for chit-chat. When you are sitting alone here, people will talk to you.Which is why I don't really see myself as a "Dutchman" but more as a lower-Rhineland Germanic. I feel myself more connected to Western Germans than for example Frisians or people from Holland.
Countries are just borders. Culture goes way beyond that.

As for the rest of your post, I think I can agree with you. I want to emphasize that I did not mean to generalize that much. Of course there are lots of "good" turks as well.

Also as you say there are other nationalities that are even less integrated and/or more criminal than Turks. But for Germany the Turks are the best example, because AFAIK they are the biggest immigrant group (correct me if I'm wrong here). And as such cause the biggest trouble.

Conclusions: dunno, I am just a grumpy old anti-everything guy...And I'm just a grumpy young anti-everything guy or what?:haha: