Convoy Help.

[reignofdeath]

Okay Ived decided to ask for help since this is the 8th time, no make that 9th I've lost a Kaluen due to a attempted convoy infiltration.

My question is, what are the steps, or procedures to infiltrating/attacking a convoy properly? every time I try I get honed down on by the escorts and bam, 4 or 5 destroyers depthcharging me, not pretty at all.

The times I have gotten inside of a convoy Ive waited until one of the escorts broke off on a sweep then sped full steam and tried to meander my way inside.

But yeah, what sort of things do you guys do when you get Convoys? becasue honestly, Im having no luck and way to hard of a time with them. And on a side note, when does allied radar become available?? because one patrol in 41 I could have sworn the ships had radar.

[Axeman3d]

I get the base course of the convoy and then race ahead. I then wait submerged as it moves up and I move in from the side. I start maybe 5k from the convoy base course and head in as the lead escort passes my nose. I head in slow, less than 4 knots usually, aiming straight for the base course line. This means you are coming in kinda at 45 degrees to the convoy between the escorts, heading for the nearest merchant.

When in range I fire off 4 torps, aiming at my furthest target and ending with my nearest target. This means they all hit within a short space of time, giving them less time to evade. If I have penetrated far enough I'll also fire off the rear torps if I have time. I then dive as deep as possible below the convoy and head back the way the convoy came from. They drive over the top, the escorts struggle to avoid collisions and noise, then they leave. Repeat as needed.

It gets tougher later with more escorts, but it works ok if you find the gaps. I don't do surface night attacks unless it's really, really dark and there are only a few escorts. Just too risky otherwise, and impossible later with radar.

[Tessa]

Radar doesn't get developed and deployed en masse until late 41' when the first generation started getting installed on ships and planes. It only gets worse as time goes on when technology improves and the detection range as well (to the point where they can detect your periscope being up). Sonar is used from the start, though at the start of the war the primary one in use is passive, with occasional use of active sonar. Once crews get experienced you're going to be dealing almost exclusively with active sonar.

Such a broad question, to get accurate answers you'll need to refine your question a bit to avoid getting vague answers. Would suggest you come up with a few scenario's/situations that you have run into in the past and pose them as , "how would you attack in this situation". There are some basic methods that apply to all attacks, but there are many situational variables that can make some methods of attack impossible, and situations where certain methods are preferable; and like anything else conditions were unorthodox methods are required to be employed.

First thing you have to do is intercept the convoy, there's several tools you can use on the map to help you plot the convoy path and plan on a point where you will intercept and attack. Depending on the speed of the convoy and your fuel situation you can time the attack so it goes off at night, or plot the course so you will attack them as soon as possible.

If you're going to attack in the daytime your options are very limited, you'll need to more precisely plot the convoy so you can lie in wait submerged and let them come to you (i.e. letting the convoy pass right over you, with you going head on into the columns (or where lie in waith where they will pass by you in a perpendicular fashion); you'll also need to use electrics so ships don't detect your shots and change course, at night you can use steam torpedoes freely) pick out one, two or three targets (really depends on whats in the convoy, if its a tanker convoy wouldn't target more than 2 different ones using 2 eels per target and the 5th/6th to finish them off if necessary, or if you're lucky attack a 3rd one) and then dive deep and crawl away. Escorts will start looking for you, so you'll need to dive deep and try to make as much distance (tough at 1 knot) between you and the ships you've targeted. If things go like planned the targets will sink, if you're lucky they'll be disabled and either be unable to move or stop moving alltogether (surface later on and finish them off with the deck gun) or moderate luck and cripple them so they slow down (eventually slow enough that they will fall out of the convoy) and then attack them once the escorts have all left.

Night time has a lot more options, you'll be able to stay on the surface and manuever into better firing positions before you dive after firing. Escorts can still detect you at night but if your careful enough not to move to close to them you can move around pretty freely; or use the ships as shields and move into the convoy itself to attack. Escorts will still go after you if you are inside the convoy but are hindered by having to move around other ships and getting clear (surface) shots at you. If you need to reload and they are getting close to lining you up dive and travel underneath one of the convoy ships while you reload, then pop up away from the escorts (best to stay submerged, though will probably be travelling fast and not silent at all) and send out your salvo.

Going into the columns and using the ships as shields is bold, reckless and exhilerating. The escorts may be very clumsy and not effectively attack you on the surface at all, though you'll have stirred up the hornets nest so it makes it more difficult to slip away. The ideal spot is if you manage to disable a ships propulsion but it doesn't go down you hide under it, escorts may circle you and try to dc you but are generally cautious around their own ships. Just be deep enough that if the ship does sink it doesn't hit you on the way down, be deep enough that you'll be able to move out of its way or you'll take massive damage.

[NightCrawler]

Before you attack the DD and Escort, make sure your torp is setted depth 2, and 30knots speed..

crawl silence(rigged silence running), 1 knots speed ahead(manual setted)..
check DD's than take them out(if the convoy is protected with 2 DD), in early years..(in late years you should fire all torps at merchant spread angel) and get the F*CK OUT OF THERE... and hope you have some hits...

I go for shot by shot...,and i start mostly taking out the DD's, later in war, i will took out the big ones, and get the F*CK out of there, deep and silence, under the convoy so the DD's have to wait when the road is clear, and change allot of course...

When i was playing SHII, i took out 2 DD's, when DD's are gone, i surfaced, use the deck-gun and slaughter the whole convoy with deckgun...

Most players here go for the "CARGO FIRST" because of the tonnage.. but forgot, when you're able to took out the DD's(in early years), you have the time(to reload the torps) and if the sea is nice and calm you should using the deckgun(to save the torps) when you're on the way home, you have some left, to use them...

Specialy in GWX 3.0 most DD's are tricky and cheating(even in early years, i had some tribals that using sonar in 1939/1940...

In Stock it was piece of cake, like "set it and forget it", bowshots are my favorit agains DD's.. nice firework after it...

[Delareon]

I always think shooting the Escorts and then shooting the whole convoy is a bit gamey. Never heard of a action like that in History. So i prefer to sneak into the Convoy, shoot and hide. The Periscope should only be used as short as possibleoid detection. Silent Running of course.

[4saken]

How are you able to get inside a convoy when the columns are 0.5-1 km away?Even if you are around 800m from the 2nd column that means the first column is just 200 m behind you and they can easily see your telescope...
I always come as close to the 1st column,let the escort pass and then move a little bit closer as close as 800-1000 m so i can target both first and second column (the second one has usually better targets than the first).I never bother attack 3rd column. Its too far and there are quite a few obstacles in front (1st and 2nd column ships that is).

[Pisces]

How are you able to get inside a convoy when the columns are 0.5-1 km away?Even if you are around 800m from the 2nd column that means the first column is just 200 m behind you and they can easily see your telescope...
I always come as close to the 1st column,let the escort pass and then move a little bit closer as close as 800-1000 m so i can target both first and second column (the second one has usually better targets than the first).I never bother attack 3rd column. Its too far and there are quite a few obstacles in front (1st and 2nd column ships that is).Hint: Set periscope on bearing 000, then set AOB as the target would have at that bearing. Then set the periscope on a bearing that makes gyro angle 000. Then wait for the 3rd collumn target (or further) to be on the periscope line and shoot. Then wait for the closer collumns to cross also and shoot. If the targetspeed is any bit accurate (like an average value of 4 intervals of 3min15sec, or 13 min total, makes it accurate to a quarter knot, and you can't set it much better anyway) then distance is hardly an issue. :know: And you'll get (near) simultaneous impacts.

This is the idea (image by RockinRobbins from the SH4 department):

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Manual%20TDC%20Range/OKanemethodanimation.gif

After the last torpedo is fired get down deep as soon as possible. Or be allready submerged before you fire to get a headstart. I think it isn't immediatly neccesary to set speed to below 1 knot in the early year to be extremely silent. I usually go down on slow or medium throttle, and only flank when the torpedos have hit until I'm at the desired depth.

[Tessa]

How are you able to get inside a convoy when the columns are 0.5-1 km away?Even if you are around 800m from the 2nd column that means the first column is just 200 m behind you and they can easily see your telescope...
I always come as close to the 1st column,let the escort pass and then move a little bit closer as close as 800-1000 m so i can target both first and second column (the second one has usually better targets than the first).I never bother attack 3rd column. Its too far and there are quite a few obstacles in front (1st and 2nd column ships that is).

A convoy I ran into this past night:

http://teletha.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/convoyfubar.jpg

As the convoy got close enough to start selecting targets my course led me to the left of the middle column, perfect for the targets that I picked out (sorry only took the 1 screen shot, was hectic when it came time to actually do the firing).

Though doesn't show on the map, it's late November near Iceland - almost the whole day is darkness, since radar hasn't been installed on ships yet they'll never spot my scope until I hit someone or my CE screws up and revs the engines to alert the escorts. This was an inbound convoy pretty close to the destination, if I didn't sink them with the first shots there's no way I was going to get another; and in this situation if I disabled a ship it wouldn't have done me any good. The convoy would reach its destination and the ship would disapear before I could surface to finish it off.

In the middle of the convoy was an ammunition ship, to its left and right large merchants. Waiting until they were ~ 1000 m away then hit hard to starboard so that at 400m I'd be at a 45 degree shot into the ammo ship as it was closest. Fired two shots into both, and once it came into range fired the last one that ended up behind me. ALL the settings are magnetic, gambling on one shot kills if possible. Both hit the ammo ship and it goes up in fireworks; one misses the large merchant but the other hits (as well as the aft one) right under the main forward hold. Both explode with 1 shot kills.

As you can see there was another convoy that passed by south which showed up about a hour after I had submerged. Fortunately it was heading west and didn't have to potentially deal with a dozen escorts. I took a pounding from the escorts but managed to slip out with 69% hull damage. There was only 1 DD in the back (and a few stupid trawlers that were easy to ditch), the ones in the front and sides (luckily) didn't come back to hunt me, with 3 trawlers and 2 DD's I guess they figured the guys didn't need the help.

Ships will only spot scopes up once they have radar, you make too much noise, or hit something to alert them. In total darkness you can keep it up for much longer periods than normal and no one is the wiser.

[Falkirion]

My usual interception and attacks come in two stages.

Stage 1) Preperation: Get the base course and speed of the convoy, once I have those I'll mark off the distances on the course line as to where they'll be in an hour, two hours, etc. Once I have that information the engagement takes place on my terms.

Stage 2) Engagement: Head to the intercept point, 90 degree to the course and wait, and wait and wait. I usually submerge about an hour ahead of when I expect the convoy to arrive. I'll sit at periscope depth waiting. As soon as I see the first escort go by (remember you're at 0 knots, odds on making no noise) I'll start in at 1-2 knots, manually set. Doing my target selection with the external cam/periscope. Once I have my targets I'll set the torpedos and wait until I have firing solutions. Fire off my ordinance, dive deep, go silent and reverse course away from where my torps were. With a bit of luck you'll be past 100m by the time the impacts start and the convoy lights up trying to find you.

Watch out hitting the throttle too soon, I've had convoys start to zig zag when an escorts picked me up on hydrophones before the torpedos make the targets. Usually doesnt save em, but the more oblivious you can keep them to your presence the better.

Then just standard evasion tactics and I usually get away scot free, no damage. I'll come up to periscope depth about an hour after the DD's break off. Check for stragglers that were wounded, finish them off with the Deck gun or another torp, then motor ahead becuase the convoy wont have changed course and I can pick another engagement point further along my plot. I once tracked a convoy for 3 days, attacking at night until all my forward torps were expended. They entered port with all the low tonnage ships floating, down all their heavies because my boat had sunk em.

[desirableroasted]

You've been getting some (more or less) good advice here. Rather than repeat most of it and argue against some of it, I would just throw out these five things to think about.

Consider magnetics. If you are in fairly calm weather, this is an excellent place to use magnetic pistols. You don't have to fiddle around worrying about 90 AOB, and successful magnetic hits have more stopping power.

Zigzagging. the convoy will begin to zigzag when one of these events happens: 1) a merchant ship or escort sees/hears you, 2) an escort spots a steam-driven torpedo, 3) a torpedo explodes. You can safely use steam-driven torpedoes against AI merchant ships; they calmly watch the thing and do nothing.

Greed will kill you. Convoys are like restaurants... do you want the steak? Or do you want lobster? Or do you want roast chicken? Pick one and forget the rest. Concentrating on one target greatly increases your chances and, remember, the restaurant will be open tomorrow night. And if the escorts kill you, you wouldn't have gotten extra credit, anyway.

Salvos are for chumps. Salvos are for chumps! If you can't manage two good firing solutions against your target & squeeze them off 3-4 seconds apart, then make do with one torpedo or go back to the academy. Spraying off a salvo into a convoy and hoping is just a good way to waste four torpedoes.

Don't take out an escort first. There is a reason they call us the "silent service." Why on earth announce your presence and location to everybody before you even get a decent firing solution lined up?

[Sailor Steve]

Salvos are for chumps. Salvos are for chumps! If you can't manage two good firing solutions against your target & squeeze them off 3-4 seconds apart, then make do with one torpedo or go back to the academy. Spraying off a salvo into a convoy and hoping is just a good way to waste four torpedoes.
Salvoes in the game are unrealistic anyway. Because of possible interference between torpedoes, even salvoes were fired a minimum of eight seconds apart.

[Gargamel]

I always think shooting the Escorts and then shooting the whole convoy is a bit gamey. Never heard of a action like that in History. So i prefer to sneak into the Convoy, shoot and hide. The Periscope should only be used as short as possibleoid detection. Silent Running of course.

Actually, BDU started ordering the boats to hit the escorts first in mid-late '41. This was to counter the effect the effectiveness of the escorts, as the u-boats were becoming unable to even get at the convoys.

Of course, BDU didnt realize that most of it was a combination of effective radar on the escorts, and that ULTRA (the Allied Enigma breaking project) was basically reading the operational commands in realtime, and warning and/or rerouting convoys around subs.

[Tessa]

I always think shooting the Escorts and then shooting the whole convoy is a bit gamey. Never heard of a action like that in History. So i prefer to sneak into the Convoy, shoot and hide. The Periscope should only be used as short as possibleoid detection. Silent Running of course.

The scenario probably never presented itself for the tactic to have been employed. It's the kind of out of the box thinking/aggressiveness that had he had the chance, Kretschmer would have probably used the tactic.

Just because some methods weren't used historically isn't a reason not to use them in our current game. While we could argue endlessly about historical gameplay and trying to act just like the captain did when this was all happening I'll make this one statement that I think we can all agree on - SH3 is a game and meant to be enjoyed, as long as you aren't cheating (like a trainer, giving yourself unlimited renown, using a XXI in 1939, etc..) and playing within the confines of the game we should all be able to enjoy it in our own ways; whatever that may be.

Harshly criticizing (this is in no way directed at you, just an observation over the years) those who are still playing by the rules but not inline with what WWII Kaleuns did is really missing one basic fundamental truth that this is a game, and when you play a game you do so to have fun and entertain yourself. In the desire to make the game more realistic (a very positive thing) some people have lost sight of that fact and at times mistreated those who enjoy playing the game in a slightly different manner than what really happened. Bottom line, this should be fun.

[desirableroasted]

one statement that I think we can all agree on - SH3 is a game and meant to be enjoyed, as long as you aren't cheating

Amen to that! If you are enjoying the game, you are playing it right!

The striving for realism (yeah, right, as long as we aren't wet, cold and underwater) can become a bit of a fetish, and I am sure it is one you come to over time.

[reignofdeath]

I would like to try now and rephrase my question, what then tactics are their to attack convoys besides the lie in wait and slip in right under them, or the slip in from the side, or the lie in wait, fire torps from distance and gtfo??

And usually how far away do you guys 'trail' convoys if you plan on attacking them that night? And any other tactics you all use??

Oh and Id like to know on the contact map what the 'dashed lines' mean, I know that looks like a backwards pacman is their listening range since theyre blind behind them like I am?? then Im guessing the smallest one to the front is their asdic?? Sometimes though I see another circle on top of those ones that covers it? Is that radar?? Or visual range??

And adding another question to that, when your hydrophone man picks up contacts and says long range, or medium range or close range what are the approximate 'range groups' hes covering?? Sorry to ask all questions, it just seems lately Ive been seeing nothing but convoys and getting nothing but sunk :nope:

[Randomizer]

Marking time until the family rolls out of bed this Christmas morning...

I would like to try now and rephrase my question, what then tactics are their to attack convoys besides the lie in wait and slip in right under them, or the slip in from the side, or the lie in wait, fire torps from distance and gtfo??
Those are the techniques that worked historically and work in SH3 (or SH4) and it's difficult to improve on success.

The advice you have been offered so far is all excellent but there are only a limited number of effective tactics to use and most have been provided.

"Trail" (it is probably more accurate to use "shadow") a convoy from ahead rather than from the sides or behind. Doing so may require a high speed end-around run but it is usually worth the fuel and the time taken. Being ahead of the convoy preserves your options and enhances the potential for a stealthy approach.

A key concept for convoy operations is Patiance, more Patiance and then still more Patiance. You are going into the escort's back yard and if you are not very sure a given approach will result in an effective attack, it is probably best to hold off until a better opportunity presents itself.

Using even moderate time compression when in contact will kill you. At any more than maybe x16 the game will not drop to x1 fast enough and you will die because of it. Convoy operations are frequently time consuming and thanks to the problems that SH3 has when saving while in contact, you pretty much have to play your convoy action out to a conclusion. In reality a single U-Boat might have operated against the same convoy over the course of several days before getting a shot in and SH3 (at least with GWX3) certainly reflects this at times.

As for salvoes, I have had some success firing salvoes of two FAT's across the "grain" of the convoy from long range and with a small spread. Often one will hit for damage and you have an excellent chance of picking off the cripple after the convoy passes out of range.

Happy Holidays and Good Shooting.