Why bother attacking convoys???

[4saken]

I know its very exciting to get a report or even spot a convoy,the multiple hydrophone reports,the anticipation etc etc.
But once you decide to attack it its another story...

I usually get spotted by the DD but even if I don't, I manage to hit max 2 ships (usually 2 torps each) and then you have to deal with at least 2-3 escorts.
It will take some hours getting rid of them (if you ever do that is) and then get back to the convoy and attack again.

For me it seems a better option to attack single merchants than attack alone a big convoy.At least I can survive longer in the Atlantic.

On the other hand I always try to attack them if sea is deep enough (100 meters and more).Can't resist!:DL:DL:DL

Maybe I am not good enough dunno...It's still March '40 and it looks difficult can't imagine how it will be in couple of years.

Regarding DD what's a safe distance when you are running in diesels?i usually try to be at around 8 km away...

[reignofdeath]

Same here, just happened, I finally got fed up with the DDs and did my favorite attack manuever on them and sunk 2 out of the 5, then snuck in the convoy, surfaced, (at night) only to get over 20 lights trained on me, guns blazing, star shells in the air, as I went to dive DDs weaving through the convoy to sink me with Depth Charges!! fml.

[maillemaker]

Why bother attacking convoys???

Congratulations - this is precisely the thought that the allies wanted to put into the minds of German u-boat commanders!

[4saken]

[/B]

Congratulations - this is precisely the thought that the allies wanted to put into the minds of German u-boat commanders!

Fair enough...
Why bother attacking convoys alone when you can't attack them as a part of a wolf pack...

[Randomizer]

As a U-Boat captain, BdU expects you to find and attack convoys. At least one captain was condemned as a coward and sentenced to be shot for consistantly failing to do so (KL Heinz Hirsacker U-572).

http://uboat.net/men/commanders/495.html

SH3 is a bit more forgiving than real life and if you choose to hunt stragglers and lone ships and avoid convoys completely, there is nobody to know but yourself. An effective captain tries to select fights he has a reasonable prospect of winning.

Personally I find stalking convoys a challenge, even in 1944 and 45, but then I seldom get more than two late-war patrols out of a career without getting sunk along the way...

Why bother attacking convoys alone when you can't attack them as a part of a wolf pack...

There were very very few cooperative U-Boat attacks in the Atlantic and a close reading of the narratives of convoy battles shows that most attacks were sequential and uncoordinated. There were execptions of course and where boats struck simultaneously it proved the best means to overwhelm the escorts but it did not happen all that frequently according to the records. Most convoy battles were, from any single boat's perspective, a pretty solitary activity regardless of the number of boats 'in contact'.

[Tessa]

As the war goes on finding lone ships becomes very scarce. Attacking a convoy in relatively shallow waters is a pretty difficult task, its much easier to evade the escorts when you can dive below 200m. Once you hear the depth charges drop the time lag gives you considerable time to manuever. Escorts will hit the throttle once they drop their charges allowing you to temporarily move around at flank speed with relative safety that you can't be detected (passively, active is always hard to evade in any scenario) and evade them (in shallow water).

Your only other alternative is to go harbor raiding, you'll always be in shallow water making it difficult or sometimes impossible to shake a DD overhead (usually have to wait for them to runout of charges (which can take hours in real time), get them to blow themselves up from not accelarating after dropping their charges (basically box them into a corner where you are close enough for them to go after you but too far away to get hit) or to sit and wait for the time that you can actually get a good shot lined up to sink them). Everyone here has their own opinions on harbor raids; though one aspect I think all would agree upon is that you have to really master shallow water maneuvering/tactics to become really successfull with harbor raids and come out alive.

[Gargamel]

Why you ask?

It's target choice. It's a buyers market in a convoy.

While hunting lone ducks, you have to take what you get. Passing on small fish targets can mean weeks of extra patrol time waiting for the juicy targets, which may never come.

In a convoy, you can create an order of battle, a target priority list if you will, and you can decide how many attacks you can make to achieve your goal.

You drop into the Convoy, pick your targets, fire the eels, and drop to the ocean floor. You get to choose which ships your going to sink. And if your inside the middle of the pack, you have extra time cause the escorts can't get to you real quick, maybe allowing you to fire off another salvo, or evade quicker. My most thrilling time is inside a convoy, knife fighting with all the ships.

And sometimes, you cna find real gems at the heart of a convoy. Battleships, carriers, Ocean liners all frequent those convoys.

My first patrol of this career, I slaughtered a convoy, 100k tonnes in one convoy sunk. The thrill of that type of performance is why I attack convoys.

I also find waiting for lone ships to be quite boring. I dont mind evading escorts, I find that fun too, gut wrenching at times, but fun.


Historically, you have to attack convoys because thats where the majority of Allied shipping was. Anything of value was placed in a convoy or a high speed ship.

[JEuler]

Attacking convoys is the essence of the game!
Preparing the attack,getting in position,hitting a ship,the cat and mouse game,the thrill you feel...
Of course you can't be successful always,but you will try again and again and again...
Attacking single merchants is ok,and the only way to survive '43 onward.

[Tessa]

As a U-Boat captain, BdU expects you to find and attack convoys. At least one captain was condemned as a coward and sentenced to be shot for consistantly failing to do so (KL Heinz Hirsacker U-572).

http://uboat.net/men/commanders/495.html

SH3 is a bit more forgiving than real life and if you choose to hunt stragglers and lone ships and avoid convoys completely, there is nobody to know but yourself. An effective captain tries to select fights he has a reasonable prospect of winning.

Personally I find stalking convoys a challenge, even in 1944 and 45, but then I seldom get more than two late-war patrols out of a career without getting sunk along the way...

Additionally commanders that came back from a patrol having sunk nothing (except in cases of mechanical failure or getting critically damaged close to/shortly after leaving port) were usually relieved of command of their ship and got reassigned. Coming back with 0 sinkings was the end of several captains careers, upon return they were never given a command at sea again. Unless you had mechanical failures en route to your patrol and were forced to abort very few commanders that completed patrols having come back with 0 sinkings (and sometime not firing a single torpedo) ever got to go back out to sea again.

[Pisces]

I know its very exciting to get a report or even spot a convoy,the multiple hydrophone reports,the anticipation etc etc.
But once you decide to attack it its another story...

I usually get spotted by the DD but even if I don't, I manage to hit max 2 ships (usually 2 torps each) and then you have to deal with at least 2-3 escorts.
It will take some hours getting rid of them (if you ever do that is) and then get back to the convoy and attack again.

For me it seems a better option to attack single merchants than attack alone a big convoy.At least I can survive longer in the Atlantic.

On the other hand I always try to attack them if sea is deep enough (100 meters and more).Can't resist!:DL:DL:DL

Maybe I am not good enough dunno...It's still March '40 and it looks difficult can't imagine how it will be in couple of years.The thing about convoys that really I hate is that dreaded savegame bug. It takes numerous attacks to get into position, snipe the juicy targets inside it (from the sides), loose the DDs and then repeat that process. If it's getting late and I feel tired I am forced to break contact with it, meaning you have to seperate to about 40km away. Or else the savegame might get corrupt. So that usually means I play it deep into the night, and sometimes have to leave it paused running on my computer until the next day. Other than that I love convoys. Just my kind of patience game. :arrgh!: I would take any single target that I meet. But unless you're in the busy areas you might get very bored inbetween.

Regarding DD what's a safe distance when you are running in diesels? i usually try to be at around 8 km away...It depends on the time of day. 8 km in the night should be really safe, unless they have radar. Which they shouldn't have in March '40. Daytime would be too close. And it surely depends on if you play stock or mods. I'm speaking from experience with GWX, with the 16km OLC Environment.

[Jack Cutter]

I have my hesitations about convoy attacks as well. Sometimes it does feel like it's not worth it, especially since you'll likely only hit one or two ships maximum at a time, and then spend four hours being depth charged by four destroyers.

BUT--If you figure the likelihood of destroyers finding you at deep depths is very low, especially at silent running and if you're usuing evasive manuevering, those two ships you got could be well over 10,000 tons a piece that's 20,000 tons in just two ships. Now figure you evade those escorts, skirt the convoy and ambush again, and sink another two ships, and you can see how attacking a convoy pays off.

Also figure into the equation that you also damage ships...and they become stragglers. Then when the escorts take off again, you surface and deck gun the wounded down.

I hate the escorts...they really are a pain in every Kaleun's arse, but in the end with proper tactics that can be found here, you can make short work of evading them.

My most successful patrol only netted me 28K tons, and that was just in one hit of a convoy in water only 110 meters deep. Granted it was in 1940, but if I can evade destroyers in shallow water, any one should be able to net 50K+ tons!

My tactics are to intercept the convoy's route, putting myself ahead of them in an ambush position, slink in deep at silent running right underneath the escort screen, and come up to 'scope depth in the middle of the convoy...find your juicy targets (big freighters, tankers, carriers ect.) launch your eels at them, go deep and turn an opposite direction from the convoy, and those escorts will lose you. When the escorts break off to rejoin the convoy, come back and pick off the wounded or the stragglers, then reintercept. Rinse repeat sort of deal.

I'll admit that single unescorted merchants make me squeal like a little girl, but the true tonnage lies with the risks of escorted convoys.

I guess you kind of have to be a thrill seeker. :arrgh!::ping:

[Gargamel]

It depends on the time of day. 8 km in the night should be really safe, unless they have radar. Which they shouldn't have in March '40. Daytime would be too close. And it surely depends on if you play stock or mods. I'm speaking from experience with GWX, with the 16km OLC Environment.

Weather too. In real bad weather, you can just about spit on them before they see you. And vice versa in some instances. Had a near miss once that I was able to flank, hard turn, and get off a stern shot at close range before he even saw me.

[Axeman3d]

Is there a definitive list of when to expect radar on the convoy routes? In late 1940 I have been scared witless by a Flower class escort trying to ram me in horrendous weather when my men saw nothing until she was almost upon us. I tend to submerge the moment I see a ship now, trying to make sure it never sees me coming.

[Tessa]

I have my hesitations about convoy attacks as well. Sometimes it does feel like it's not worth it, especially since you'll likely only hit one or two ships maximum at a time, and then spend four hours being depth charged by four destroyers.

BUT--If you figure the likelihood of destroyers finding you at deep depths is very low, especially at silent running and if you're usuing evasive manuevering, those two ships you got could be well over 10,000 tons a piece that's 20,000 tons in just two ships. Now figure you evade those escorts, skirt the convoy and ambush again, and sink another two ships, and you can see how attacking a convoy pays off.

Also figure into the equation that you also damage ships...and they become stragglers. Then when the escorts take off again, you surface and deck gun the wounded down.

I hate the escorts...they really are a pain in every Kaleun's arse, but in the end with proper tactics that can be found here, you can make short work of evading them.

My most successful patrol only netted me 28K tons, and that was just in one hit of a convoy in water only 110 meters deep. Granted it was in 1940, but if I can evade destroyers in shallow water, any one should be able to net 50K+ tons!

My tactics are to intercept the convoy's route, putting myself ahead of them in an ambush position, slink in deep at silent running right underneath the escort screen, and come up to 'scope depth in the middle of the convoy...find your juicy targets (big freighters, tankers, carriers ect.) launch your eels at them, go deep and turn an opposite direction from the convoy, and those escorts will lose you. When the escorts break off to rejoin the convoy, come back and pick off the wounded or the stragglers, then reintercept. Rinse repeat sort of deal.

I'll admit that single unescorted merchants make me squeal like a little girl, but the true tonnage lies with the risks of escorted convoys.

I guess you kind of have to be a thrill seeker. :arrgh!::ping:

Even if you're only able to get 5 or 6 shots off (depending on which type of ship you're using) and then dive deep you can still get some large tonnage from convoys. If say in the 5 shots one was a 1 hit sink, 1 hit and disabled propulsion making it a stragler to be left behind (and easy prey with the deck gun later), 1 hits but only slows down the ship 1 or 2 knots and the last misses you can still take advantage of the one crippled ship.

After you've evaded the escorts and/or the convoy is out of range for you to surface and reload its not too hard to shadow the same convoy and hit them again the next night (just hope its not a fast convoy else you're burn an enormous amount of fuel to get ahead of them into a good firing position) by manuevering yourself parrallel or ahead of the convoy and intercept them in darkness. If you can remember which ship you had already hit another eel into the side will likely sink it unless its something enormous (like a large troop ship or Cunard liner) and then get another shot at the convoy again and hopefully take 1 or 2 more down.

If you run into a convoy that's loaded with high value targets like tankers, BB or CV's, or Large Merchants/Heavy Cargo ships it is really worth the effort and time to harass the convoy for as long as you have fuel and torpedo's to use.

[Ducimus]

Why bother attacking convoys???

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=131&pictureid=782
Yeah... why did I bother anyway? So boring. :yawn:

[Gargamel]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=131&pictureid=782
Yeah... why did I bother anyway? So boring. :yawn:

You hit a Fireworks Factory Ship or what?

[GoldenRivet]

Why bother attacking convoys?







Because it is your duty to the Fatherland. :salute:

[Tessa]

Why bother attacking convoys?







Because it is your duty to the Fatherland. :salute:

Lol, might find yourself a new resident of Dachau if you keep disobeying orders. Cowards got off easy if they were shot.

[VONHARRIS]

I can not resist! When a convoy is spotted I will try to obtain the most favorable attack position and fire. I have 6 loaded torpedo tubes and I don't intent to bring those eels home.
Oh , I dont want to visit Dahau or face the execution squad.

Of cource I don't have a death wish. If things are not showing well I will dive and let them pass.
An other will come ........

Edit : My avatar just changed to Medic I don't like it. Ha ha

[desirableroasted]

I know its very exciting to get a report or even spot a convoy,the multiple hydrophone reports,the anticipation etc etc.
But once you decide to attack it its another story...

You just need more practice, and perhaps better weather. Attacking a convoy in reduced visibility weather and rough seas is fairly easy after you have done it a few times.

As others have noted, the pickings are rich and concentrated. On my new career, we killed the Revenge and two modern tankers from one convoy over a two hour period. The escorts never peeped, and I pulled back only because it got too dark to see anything. I would have had to patrol for weeks to run across two modern tankers, and I doulbt I ever would have found the Revenge chugging along at 5 knots.

[Hitman]

Attacking convoys is not something that anyone would like -including BDU- and it has lots of disadvantages (Concentration of escorts, many more lookouts all around, air cover when available, etc.). But it's something you are forced to when lone targets become scarce. You either engage them or you don't, and in the latter case if no other targets are available, you are doing little for the war effort. Which is the full point of convoying, actually ...

BDU shifted along the war frequently the patrol areas of the long range IXs to places where they would find unescorted traffic, and the fact they attacked the main northern atlantic convoy route is just because they had no other choice. If it had depended on BDU, they would have preferred to fight a submarine war like the golden days of WW1 (Not WW2), when Uboats found plenty of lone targets to hunt with their deck guns. But the allies had learnt their lessons, and knew that convoying was to have the upper hand sooner or later.

[nikimcbee]

What year are you playing in? Getting in the middle of the convoy is a rush. And there is always something cool to sink in the middle.:hmmm:

[4saken]

I just intercepted a convoy 3 torpedos launched to two cargos,2 hits.One large cargo and one Ore Carrier .There was a battleship in the middle of the convoy but I was like 2km away with 3 ships in front of it so ,as tempting as it was a 3 torpedo salvo, i concentrated in the cargo ships.

As soon as i launched the torpedoes i dived to 160 m and made sure i was under the convoy.The DD never found me, i waited a couple of hours and then shadowed the convoy to get the which wasn't sunk yet and was struggling a few km behind the convoy.

I decided to get it with the deck gun since i had only aft torpedoes and didn't want to waste them on it.I was spotted and chased by the DD but before i managed to get away i got a message from the crew that was finally sank.

Great thrill with more than 15k tonnage...:rock::rock::rock:

I guess I should be more aggresive (i am the topic starter btw)

ps: the sunk ships were grey instead of red...that means they were sunk by weather?I guess i get the renown since they are in my captains log.

[Schwieger]

Oh.. convoy attacks give me memories of flooding and then getting crushed by pressure...

[JEuler]

I just intercepted a convoy 3 torpedos launched to two cargos,2 hits.One large cargo and one Ore Carrier .There was a battleship in the middle of the convoy but I was like 2km away with 3 ships in front of it so ,as tempting as it was a 3 torpedo salvo, i concentrated in the cargo ships.

As soon as i launched the torpedoes i dived to 160 m and made sure i was under the convoy.The DD never found me, i waited a couple of hours and then shadowed the convoy to get the which wasn't sunk yet and was struggling a few km behind the convoy.

I decided to get it with the deck gun since i had only aft torpedoes and didn't want to waste them on it.I was spotted and chased by the DD but before i managed to get away i got a message from the crew that was finally sank.

Great thrill with more than 15k tonnage...:rock::rock::rock:

:yeah:

I think this is the best possible answer to your question.Now you know why bother attacking convoys.

ps: the sunk ships were grey instead of red...that means they were sunk by weather?I guess i get the renown since they are in my captains log.

You will get the renown.IIRC they were grey because the exact position of sinking is not known.

[Tessa]

I just intercepted a convoy 3 torpedos launched to two cargos,2 hits.One large cargo and one Ore Carrier .There was a battleship in the middle of the convoy but I was like 2km away with 3 ships in front of it so ,as tempting as it was a 3 torpedo salvo, i concentrated in the cargo ships.

As soon as i launched the torpedoes i dived to 160 m and made sure i was under the convoy.The DD never found me, i waited a couple of hours and then shadowed the convoy to get the which wasn't sunk yet and was struggling a few km behind the convoy.

I decided to get it with the deck gun since i had only aft torpedoes and didn't want to waste them on it.I was spotted and chased by the DD but before i managed to get away i got a message from the crew that was finally sank.

Great thrill with more than 15k tonnage...:rock::rock::rock:

I guess I should be more aggresive (i am the topic starter btw)

ps: the sunk ships were grey instead of red...that means they were sunk by weather?I guess i get the renown since they are in my captains log.

Battleships in a convoy are generous gifts we get from time to time, they should always be your first target. Be more aggressive!!

Really though, BB in a convoy make for easy targets, especially at night when you can use steam torpedoes where they are unlikely to spot it and change course to dodge them. Unless you've got large merchants/tankers in between you and them (which would be a good dilemma for once) most have drafts of at least 9 m to 11m, plenty deep enough for a magnetic shot that'll go under most of the ships on the edge of the convoy. Sinking a BB at sea is a lot easier than it is in a harbor (ironic that it can be harder to sink a stationary target) especially as the sea gets rougher.

A solid hit to the forecastle can cause them to sink themselves from flooding (since they've got forward propulsion and a lot of momentum they push water into themselves quite quickly), I've been shocked several times when I've hit the BB with the first eel and the second misfires/goes wide a hits a (seemingly) crappy spot only to get the message "she's going down" a few minutes later. Shot to the boilers/aft has the same kind of effect, without any propulsion they become as aerodynamic as a f-16 w/o engines and drop like a brick.

Renown wise BB's will generally be worth the same as 2 -3 Large Merchants/Large or Modern Tankers so you get a very high return value per eel when you sink one. As you found out convoy's that have capital ships in them tend to have very lazy escorts. Up till late 40' (when more merchants are frequently armed) if you can manage to take out the escort you can surface and proceed to sink the rest of the convoy (literally) with the deck gun and surface shots.

Ships that show up as grey/sunk means that they were sunk by "other means" (best way to phrase it) and you won't get credit for their sinking. When a ship rams another one or hits a wall hard enough/long enough to sink itself it shows up as grey, or if there is/was an airstrike I've seen grey ships pop up too. While you may have damaged it, the cause for its sinking was something external to what you did; thus giving you no credit.

[flag4]

I know its very exciting to get a report or even spot a convoy,the multiple hydrophone reports,the anticipation etc etc.
But once you decide to attack it its another story...

I usually get spotted by the DD but even if I don't, I manage to hit max 2 ships (usually 2 torps each) and then you have to deal with at least 2-3 escorts.
It will take some hours getting rid of them (if you ever do that is) and then get back to the convoy and attack again.

For me it seems a better option to attack single merchants than attack alone a big convoy.At least I can survive longer in the Atlantic.

On the other hand I always try to attack them if sea is deep enough (100 meters and more).Can't resist!:DL:DL:DL

Maybe I am not good enough dunno...It's still March '40 and it looks difficult can't imagine how it will be in couple of years.

Regarding DD what's a safe distance when you are running in diesels?i usually try to be at around 8 km away...

the man to ask is Otto Kretchmar...........March '40, he was hitting his stride.

Jimbuna please.....

[4saken]

Be more aggresive?:O::O::O:

[VONHARRIS]

Ships that show up as grey/sunk means that they were sunk by "other means" (best way to phrase it) and you won't get credit for their sinking. When a ship rams another one or hits a wall hard enough/long enough to sink itself it shows up as grey, or if there is/was an airstrike I've seen grey ships pop up too. While you may have damaged it, the cause for its sinking was something external to what you did; thus giving you no credit.

I have noticed that a grey sunk ship icon also means that the ship sunk by you but you didn't visually confirmed it , possibly by seconadray explosions or flooding.
For example : I have hit ships in a convoy but they didn't ship immediately. After I dived deep enough to avoid the D/C the ships went down about 30 miles away from my postition. They grey icon showed up and I got the renown for it.

[4saken]

Akrivos to idio sinevei kai se mena!:)

That's exactly what happened to me too!

[Missing Name]

Sometimes I don't even get an icon for sinkings.

Me? I actually don't care for convoys. Too dangerous, in my opinion. I DID get the HMS Nelson in a convoy once and almost got blown out of the water by a Revenge class another time.

But sometimes, I will call off an attack if I deem it too risky, no matter what the targets. I once had the HMT Aquitania in my crosshairs about 3km away, but there were 4 escorts within 1km. If I had attacked, I would have been immediately pounced on. The convoy went too fast for me to effectively get into another firing position.

I prefer harbor runs. Norfolk and Gibraltar are fun. (Baltimore has nothing.)

[Gargamel]

Ok, we've attacked the convoy, got into the nice little knife inside the middle I so enjoy, After hitting the primary target with T2's, we've tried to hit a couple more with fast running T1's.

Now we've dove, survived the DC's, and got spit out the back of the convoy. We come to peri depth, get a good fix on their direction, get some distance, and try to do an end around while shadowing the convoy.

Any tips for doing so?

I made a dawn attack, now have to shadow, during the day, In june, At the same latitudes as La Rochelle. Currently running decks awash, about 14k away from the convoy, but the side escort keeps wandering out my way. Any good tips for this?

[Tessa]

Ok, we've attacked the convoy, got into the nice little knife inside the middle I so enjoy, After hitting the primary target with T2's, we've tried to hit a couple more with fast running T1's.

Now we've dove, survived the DC's, and got spit out the back of the convoy. We come to peri depth, get a good fix on their direction, get some distance, and try to do an end around while shadowing the convoy.

Any tips for doing so?

I made a dawn attack, now have to shadow, during the day, In june, At the same latitudes as La Rochelle. Currently running decks awash, about 14k away from the convoy, but the side escort keeps wandering out my way. Any good tips for this?

The Sonar is the best tool for me, you can safely stay 2km away and still get a good fix on the convoy's heading. While the SO might not report any contact, when shadowing you really need to operate the sonar yourself so you can get precise reading on the heading of the convoy.

Another method I've used with good success is a triangular course. Use the convoy as the bottom line and you're going to make the other 2 sides over the course of the day. The idea being you complete the triangle a hour or so after dark where you and the convoy meet up at the corner of the triangle and you plan your attack accordingly. Granted you do need to do some real math and calculate the distance the convoy will go at its observed speed so you can be sure to meet up with it at the end of the course; success rate for intercepting the convoy as planned works (for me) 70%-80% of the time. Even if they aren't at the appointed spot they are usually nearby and close enough to search for them and still have ample time to attackk in the darkness.

[desirableroasted]

Now we've dove, survived the DC's, and got spit out the back of the convoy. We come to peri depth, get a good fix on their direction, get some distance, and try to do an end around while shadowing the convoy.

Any tips for doing so?



Assuming they don't have radar, I would go to surface, flank speed ahead of it, then drop back to its speed. The rest of the day, I would keep 10-12K in front of it (or front and off to one side; that's up to you), using hydrophone checks to insure it does not zig-zag away.

[TarJak]

In late '43 convoy hunting goes off my list and I look for loners. I'll hit a convoy if it comes along but only if it looks like its worth running the risk.

Up until lat '42 though it's what makes playing SH3 fun. The thrill of getting into position, lining up and sinking your target then slinking away. Nothing finer.

[Tessa]

Assuming they don't have radar, I would go to surface, flank speed ahead of it, then drop back to its speed. The rest of the day, I would keep 10-12K in front of it (or front and off to one side; that's up to you), using hydrophone checks to insure it does not zig-zag away.

Radar doesn't start showing up till late 41'. By mid 42' nearly all escorts have radar with one escort having a Huff-Duff, and all the larger planes will have them installed on board as well.

If you're in front of the convoy you need to be much more mindful of your relative positions. Sometimes you need to pull a Crazy Ivan just to get the headings from your SO. Biggest disadvantage with being in front is that the convoy is largely in your blind spot (sonar wise) and if you can see them they can see you just the same. Once night finally does fall you're in a position where you can use a number of different tactics; being in front gives you more options about how to plan your attack.

[STEED]

Should we leave them alone, after all there minding the own business and rather go about sailing from port to port and so on.

Hmmm... :hmmm:

Sounds boring to me, so what we do is beef things up and...WOO-HOO. :DL

[desirableroasted]

Radar doesn't start showing up till late 41'. By mid 42' nearly all escorts have radar with one escort having a Huff-Duff, and all the larger planes will have them installed on board as well.

Which is why I made that caveat. I haven't gone back up the thread to see when he is playing, though his questions imply very early war.

Sometimes you need to pull a Crazy Ivan just to get the headings from your SO.

I wouldn't call it a "Crazy Ivan," a much different maneuver, but you do have to submerge and come around 90 degrees to get a good sound. Doing it once an hour or so alerts you to their course changes.

And if you are lazy, and conditions are clear, you can wait and watch for their smoke. You will see them far further out than they will see you. Of course, clear skies are a mixed blessing... you want pretty nice haze when you make your attack.

being in front gives you more options about how to plan your attack.

Exactly. With rare exceptions, there is little more fruitless than attacking from behind.

[desirableroasted]

Until the technology shifts (radar, etc), I like nothing better than a convoy. It's like a great pot roast: main course on Sunday and leftovers most of the rest of the week. Spotted far enough out in the Atlantic, you can pick the thing clean before it ever reaches England.

Yes, the escorts can be pesky -- or worse -- but patience, care, then depth, silence and more patience pretty much make convoy attacks a more-than-acceptable risk.

It has often occurred to me, reading posts here, that newer players wildly underestimate the patience required to make a successful convoy attack. There is little room for TC (maybe up to 16x in the beginning, and once the escorts are largely evaded) and a great need for concentration.

If you can't set aside two hours of real time to do a convoy attack, you are going to miss a lot of targets; you are also going to miss a lot of the sim's inner beauty.

[VONHARRIS]

But sometimes, I will call off an attack if I deem it too risky, no matter what the targets. I once had the HMT Aquitania in my crosshairs about 3km away, but there were 4 escorts within 1km. If I had attacked, I would have been immediately pounced on. The convoy went too fast for me to effectively get into another firing position.

I prefer harbor runs. Norfolk and Gibraltar are fun. (Baltimore has nothing.)

I wouldn't have called this attack off.
I would have fired all 4 bow tubes at the Aquitania and immediately I would have dove to 150m silent running.
Was this engagement done in in daylight?

This is my first post for 2011!!
Happy new year to all!

[Gerald]

I wouldn't have called this attack off.
I would have fired all 4 bow tubes at the Aquitania and immediately I would have dove to 150m silent running.
Was this engagement done in in daylight?

This is my first post for 2011!!
Happy new year to all! 150m,I had appeared further down to be a bit "safer" for example, around 200, unless there was no hull damage

[VONHARRIS]

150m,I had appeared further down to be a bit "safer" for example, around 200, unless there was no hull damage

Diving to 200m can be fatal if D/C start dropping near you or a hedgehog salvo lands on your deck. The damage control crew will never be able to cope with the flooding and the damege at the same time.

[Gerald]

Diving to 200m can be fatal if D/C start dropping near you or a hedgehog salvo lands on your deck. The damage control crew will never be able to cope with the flooding and the damege at the same time. Certainly, but it can sometimes be easier to get away..:lurk:

[desirableroasted]

Diving to 200m can be fatal if D/C start dropping near you or a hedgehog salvo lands on your deck. The damage control crew will never be able to cope with the flooding and the damege at the same time.

And 20m would be less "fatal"?

Sounds to me like you assume you will be hit. That's 150m off your life, right there.

[VONHARRIS]

And 20m would be less "fatal"?

Sounds to me like you assume you will be hit. That's 150m off your life, right there.

Yes , I always assume that a hit on my sub is possible - when attacking a convoy - especially after 1942 when things can get pretty rough.

[Tessa]

Until the technology shifts (radar, etc), I like nothing better than a convoy. It's like a great pot roast: main course on Sunday and leftovers most of the rest of the week. Spotted far enough out in the Atlantic, you can pick the thing clean before it ever reaches England.

Yes, the escorts can be pesky -- or worse -- but patience, care, then depth, silence and more patience pretty much make convoy attacks a more-than-acceptable risk.

It has often occurred to me, reading posts here, that newer players wildly underestimate the patience required to make a successful convoy attack. There is little room for TC (maybe up to 16x in the beginning, and once the escorts are largely evaded) and a great need for concentration.

If you can't set aside two hours of real time to do a convoy attack, you are going to miss a lot of targets; you are also going to miss a lot of the sim's inner beauty.

There's a fine line between wild and aggressive. Long as you know the basics to evading escorts time is largely the biggest factor. Some battles may last 4-6 hours real time, you have to be prepared to reap what you sow.

The more aggresive you are the harder (generally speaking) it will be to escape the escorts. If you stumble upon a tanker convoy or a 40+ ship one with large warships it can become an all you can eat buffet. You could play it safe attacking from a distance and immediately heading away from the convoy so that when the torpedoes hit you're far enough away that the escorts have a much lower chance of locating you being 5000-7000m away. Then shadow the convoy and repeat.

One tactic I like to use (personally I'm not fond of shadowing convoys, I will if there are still major targets in there or for one reason or another they pissed me off) is the merchant shield. Can be done if attacking head on or close range (1000m ish) once the torpedoes hit you slam the engines to flank decrease depth to 25-30 meters (depends on the weather) and then get under a large tanker/merchant or any other big ship while you reload. Once ready you'll be in perfect position for a 5 target salvo and duck back under a merchant. You need to find a disabled ship, or one only moving at 1 or 2 knots and head straight at it. Once under it the escorts may circle but won't risk dropping charge to close to a merchant ship. Eventually the escorts will be forced to leave in order to join the convoy.

While being a very aggressive method (you'll always be making so much noise all the escorts will know you are there) it hinges on disabling a ship enough that doesn't sink. If you did manage to sink every target you aimed at it almost makes the situation worse. If you hadn't fired any eels yet you should have 2 stren left over that you can use to aim at merchants aft in hopes of disabling the motors or causing it to slow down enough the you can safely hide under it. OTHERWISE you are in major trouble. Now you're going to have to work on evading anywhere from 2-6 escorts after the battle. It is possible to do so but will take many hours real time to do so. Have had several times where I stopped to have dinner during my escape, longest I've personally been underwater and succeded in evading 3 or more escorts is 6 hours. It takes a lot of patience but the rewards you get once your safe make it worthwhile. You can easily get 60,000-80,000 tons this way if you're aiming was good and you didn't have many duds.

Several Kaleun's that did have 50,000+ patrols were generally awarded a RK for that feat alone (even if that didn't put them above 100,000 tons), it was like coming home with from a hunting trip with a 20 point buck or a sniper picking off someone from 1700 yards. The feat itself is so noteworthy that it deserves special recognition.

[Gargamel]

Eventually the escorts will be forced to leave in order to join the convoy.

Not always.

I sat perched underneath a very very slowly sinking Empire Freighter once, while an escort circled for about 12 hours game time. The Convoy was long gone. I eventually had to sink him as he came around the ship. I was at full stop, under or parked directly beside the Empire. I had to do something as air quality and a slowly disappearing hide was becoming an issue.

Was going to link the full play by play, but I cant seem to find it. Somewhere in the Campaign thread.....

[Capt. Morgan]

I can see the OP's point.

The risks you need to take, and the skill you must possess in order to succeed - for rarely more than 2 ships, well you can see why the Convoy System was invented.

In reality, you would attack convoys alongside other U-boats (on occasion, over a dozen others), forcing the escorts to divide their attention, and to leave entire sectors of the convoy undefended.

A single wave could take out 6-7 merchants, there could be up to 3 waves in a night, and some convoy battles could last a week. That's why (and how) the real guys attacked convoys. In SHIII, you're on your own.

I tend to think of Silent Hunter as taking place in a WWII in a parallel universe, one where Doughnuts didn't think of wolf-packs.

[Gargamel]

I tend to think of Silent Hunter as taking place in a WWII in a parallel universe, one where Doughnuts didn't think of wolf-packs.

Oh oh oh! :har::rotfl2: Thank you!

Been trying to figure out how to approach the character in the schlitzor stories! That's how I'm gonna do it, different spelling of course!

[Tessa]

Not always.

I sat perched underneath a very very slowly sinking Empire Freighter once, while an escort circled for about 12 hours game time. The Convoy was long gone. I eventually had to sink him as he came around the ship. I was at full stop, under or parked directly beside the Empire. I had to do something as air quality and a slowly disappearing hide was becoming an issue.

Was going to link the full play by play, but I cant seem to find it. Somewhere in the Campaign thread.....

Interesting, what year was it? Late in the war when a convoy might have 12 escorts they could afford to detach 1 or 2 DD's from the convoy to hunt you down. Depending on how close you are to the convoy's destination is a factor as well, if it's only 10 miles from the destination once it reaches it all the warships will dissapear. Obviously if you're in the middle of the Atlantic that's not an option, in the Irish Sea you could potentially wait him out long enough for the convoy to reach Britsol or Liverpool.

Stubborn escorts like the one you encountered I would have sunk too. If he is so fixated on sinking you that he's willing to lie in wait for half a day its no longer cat and mouse, but endgame Chess. Whoever makes the first mistake is likely going to the bottom.

[Sailor Steve]

I tend to think of Silent Hunter as taking place in a WWII in a parallel universe...
That's very true in that I also command a u-boat that was in reality commanded by someone else, and my photograph in SH3 Commander looks an awful lot like a completely different person in this world. Also, I'm much better at it than any of those losers. :D

[desirableroasted]

Stubborn escorts like the one you encountered I would have sunk too. If he is so fixated on sinking you that he's willing to lie in wait for half a day its no longer cat and mouse, but endgame Chess.


In real life, yes, you could ascribe his stubbornness to time on his hands, a hunch, or just orders.

In SH3, though, it means you are making noise often enough to keep him on station.

If an escort sinks you in the first hour of contact, that's not necessarily your fault. If it sinks you after that, it's your fault.

Hard to say, not knowing his tactical situation, but parking just under the Empire is almost certainly a mistake. 200m down and 7000m away would be a far better place to spend the day.

[Capt. Morgan]

... Thank you!...

De-nada, or as the French say, derriere.

[Tessa]

In real life, yes, you could ascribe his stubbornness to time on his hands, a hunch, or just orders.

In SH3, though, it means you are making noise often enough to keep him on station.

If an escort sinks you in the first hour of contact, that's not necessarily your fault. If it sinks you after that, it's your fault.

Hard to say, not knowing his tactical situation, but parking just under the Empire is almost certainly a mistake. 200m down and 7000m away would be a far better place to spend the day.

If he's got you spotted with his active sonar continuosly you could be moving at 1/2 a knot and he'd still attack you. The way the game handles active sonar isn't very realistic. That's one aspect that has always frustrated me (unfixable though from a hard coded game "feautre") is that bottoming the boat doesn't provide any camoflodge.

You should be able to stay 3-5 meters above the bottom and slowly slip away. Unless the ocean bottom curved dramatically there's no way he should be able to differentiate you from a large rock on the ocean floor. Or for that matter just stay on the bottom, even if the SO could get a fix on you with the active sonar after circling for a few hours they usually assumed that the u-boat sunk.

[Tinman764]

The active sonar had me scratching my head tonight aswell.
Had just made my 2nd attack of the night on a large convoy and was quietly slipping away at 2knts 80m deep backtracking down the convoys route. I had 2 escorts chasing shadows 1500m away and was just letting the tail end escort pass over me when he started pinging me. I did nothing to alert him, wasn't reloading etc, so how he knew I was there is a mystery - his 1st round of DCs where bloody close aswell.
2 RL hours later, and I was able to surface and bring in my external stores ready for round 3 :salute:

[Iranon]

To the 'why bother?' question: That's why ships sailed in convoy, to deter or at least fare better against submarine attacks.
Germany tried hard to get some large commerce raiders into action to take advantage of this - even the RN didn't have the resources to protect most convoys against a battleship.

[Tessa]

The active sonar had me scratching my head tonight aswell.
Had just made my 2nd attack of the night on a large convoy and was quietly slipping away at 2knts 80m deep backtracking down the convoys route. I had 2 escorts chasing shadows 1500m away and was just letting the tail end escort pass over me when he started pinging me. I did nothing to alert him, wasn't reloading etc, so how he knew I was there is a mystery - his 1st round of DCs where bloody close aswell.
2 RL hours later, and I was able to surface and bring in my external stores ready for round 3 :salute:
For true silent speed you need to be going around 1 knot, in the command room look at the engine rpm's; once they hit 50 keep the engines at that speed and you'll be (more or less) invisible to their passive sonar. Have had them frequently pass right over me but unable to get a solid contact (and weren't using active sonar) makes for a pretty easy escape.

[unterseemann]

De-nada, or as the French say, derriere.
In french it's 'de rien'
derrière means behind.
Just my 2 cents

[Capt. Morgan]

In french it's 'de rien'
derrière means behind.
Just my 2 cents

I was wondering when that would be noticed - A feeble attempt at a pun in a language not my own.

[Hanomag]

I remember in my early days of playing SH3... before I started realism game play...

In 1939 I could surface in the middle of an unescorted unarmed convoy use all my eels, every deck gun shell I had and sink em in order of high tonnage first... usually wiping out 90% of the convoy...

Once I upped the realism and started using the GWX mod this became err.. more difficult to do.

Toward the later part of the war 43-45 I stay away from convoys altogether and pray for singles.. and the end of the war. :up:

But to answer your question .. Why bother..?

To SHOW EM I GOT CAJONES!!! :arrgh!: