Vs DD w/ a deck gun?

[Gargamel]

Ok ,this one is aimed at Missing name. How the heck are you taking out destroyers with your deck gun and not sustaining severe damage? And then how did an armed trawler mess you up so bad?


(yes I know I'm starting a new thread, but most of the threads this is mentioned in, it would be OT to have a full discussion)

[convoy hunter]

Ok ,this one is aimed at Missing name. How the heck are you taking out destroyers with your deck gun and not sustaining severe damage? And then how did an armed trawler mess you up so bad?


(yes I know I'm starting a new thread, but most of the threads this is mentioned in, it would be OT to have a full discussion)
Usually you don't attack destroyers with guns. Instead you go deep enough so it cannot harm you.

[Tessa]

Personally only success I've had in tangling with warships on the surface is to use range and be (yourself) very proficient in using your deck gun. At 3k - 4k the warships accuracy isn't that spectacular, that's the best time you'll have to take shots at him. Once they reach ~ 2k 1 in 5 shots will usually hit you, this only goes up the closer you get; though at ranges <500m their aim can be terrible.

If they are heading straight at you on a constant bead you can also use an electric torpedo, set the depth to 2 1/2 meters and hope that he doesn't change his course. A torpedo impact against the front of the ship usually won't detonate and bounces off, magnetic shot is best way as if he has stayed on the same course the torpedo will run down the entire length of the ship giving it ample time to raise up and detonate.

Attacking warships while not submerged is something I'll only do in the case where the potential reward can substantially outweight the risk. In a situation where you run into a convoy that only has 2 escorts - a BB and a DD, the BB is easily sunk with torpedo's; getting the more nimble escort can be a real torpedo waster. If the ships don't have guns (yet) or only a few are armed then you could potentially get the turkey shoot sceneario if you do manage to take out the other escort. Which case even if I take 50% damage to my hull I have free reign over the entire convoy and can fire at will without fear of getting shot back at. Empty the deck gun and use all your eels and you can walk away with 100k+ tonnage easily in such a situation. While I'll take one hell of a beating the rewards if successful are enormous. Especially early in the war when no merchants are armed it's possible to sink all the ships in a convoy with good use of the deck gun and making only sure kill shots with your eels.

[VONHARRIS]

I agree with Tessa. There is no point in attacking escorts with gunfire especially if you play at high realsim (>90%)

The only case to attack an escort with the 105mm gun is ti finish him off after a torpedo attack.
On the other hand I don't fire torps against escorts unless I can not avoid it.
Sinking a 1000 - 1500 DD with one shot is not as productive as sinking an Empipre tyoe freighter!

Edit : I do have the same question: How did you bring down a DD armed with 3 turrets housing no smaller than 5in guns and many other smaller weapons?

[desirableroasted]

Ok ,this one is aimed at Missing name. How the heck are you taking out destroyers with your deck gun and not sustaining severe damage? And then how did an armed trawler mess you up so bad?


If he is playing stock, it is possible if he is up against an unskilled escort. The stock deck gun is massively overpowered, and hit points are pretty freely distributed over a DD in stock.

All it shows is that the stock game is fairly unrealistic.

If he is doing in in GWX, well.... I'm betting he learns not to make a habit of it.

[Tessa]

Edit : I do have the same question: How did you bring down a DD armed with 3 turrets housing no smaller than 5in guns and many other smaller weapons?

Waterline shots; which can be particularly difficult on escorts since they may only have a 2-3m draft leaving very little room for error in shooting. Even on a type VII shots below the waterline can be devasting from the small deck gun (w/GWX). With calm seas and good maneuvering you can sink a large ship like a modern tanker/large merchant with 15-20 shells if they're all (or at least 90%+) below the waterline.

Just because the ship is loaded with 4" and 5" guns doesn't alter the fact that it still has kinks in its armor that you can exploit if you are brave (or stupid more likely, can be situational though with risk/reward) to go head to head you can make it out alive, how much of your sub is still functional afterwards is the gamble you take (and the lives of your crew)

Have had this happen before, heavy storm where visibility is 300-400m at best and nearly rammed the Hood (she was stationary outside the river inlet leading to Firth of Clyde) before I saw her. Luckily I wasn't moving too fast and was able to crash dive and my conning tower managed to clear her in the dive (after which in such rough weather she sank easily with 1 eel into the boilers; dropped like a rock with the massive additional flooding) but not before I had everything shot at me.

In other situations where I've also been caught in the open with a BB same pattern emerges, all the 12"-16" will miss (they were never designed to fire at targets less then several thousand feet away), it's all the 4"-6" guns that will slice your hull apart in seconds if you can't get under fast enough. Surely if you did get hit by a shell from the main battery you'd be erased from the water; since the guns are designed to shoot in distances of miles being only a few hundred (or even a thousand) meters away is too close for them to accurately target you since they don't have negative camber. The large guns are also quite expensive to fire, no sane captain would risk expending such valuable ammo at a target that is easily taken care of by the secondary batteries.

[VONHARRIS]

@Tessa ,
I agree for the waterline shots on merchants. I do the same thing.
But I had a very nasty experience when I became the target for the 15in guns of the HMS Revenge. A full broadside salvo (all 4 turrets opened fire) landed on and around me.(VIIB). I don't think that anything was left of the Uboat on the water.
I think it is unwise to engage warships with the deck gun. Uboats were not designed for such action.

[Matador.es]

more or less same debate in SH5 part:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=178161

In sh3 i ones did a trwaler with my deck gun. I was in the Dover Strait in shallow waters, no torps and a trawler with no DC left, but it kept chasing me and making attack runs but without dropping DC. Waited till night and surfaced. He sank, but got close sinking myself 2.

[Missing Name]

I do use GWX. I have really cut back on the deck gun... too risky, with all those airplanes and armed merchants around. The wind must be low and very little rain. (I'm still too stubborn to obey orders and get rid of it.) And I will typically only attack the escort of a small convoy. It really is a stupid strategy. I won't deny it.

I surface about 5km away from the target. Make plenty of noise, make yourself visible on all sensors. With any luck, the DD will come straight at you. Sometimes it completely ignores you... attack the convoy regularly now! Now, the distance will close very rapidly, but if the DD is turning directly into you, it will only be able to use one or two guns out of all its armament. KEEP THE REPAIR CREW ON FULL ALERT.

Now it's luck and balls. You have to figure out what the attacker will do next, so compensate where you shoot. Taking off turrets will make a nice bang, but the depth charges can sink a destroyer with a well aimed shot. Taking out the engines is also a large part of my strategy. As I said, luck is involved. It may take several rounds to disable the engines, or just one. Aim... well, I get a lot of practice.

If it gets too close, dive to periscope depth, release a decoy and go behind the DD. I cut it really close, so when it slows down after its attack run, it'll be about 500m behind you. A rear torp will take it down with little compensation for target movement.

The max damage I've gotten in a destroyer gun battle? Down to 65% HI. The least: 100%. I had a passenger cargo get me down to 33%. Not only are they filled with ping pong balls, but I swear they can shoot anything with those 20mm.

As for the trawler... I don't know. I was going at 1 knot, silent running and it didn't ping me, but it put the charges exactly on target. As in, one hit the deck and then exploded.

[Tessa]

@Tessa ,
I agree for the waterline shots on merchants. I do the same thing.
But I had a very nasty experience when I became the target for the 15in guns of the HMS Revenge. A full broadside salvo (all 4 turrets opened fire) landed on and around me.(VIIB). I don't think that anything was left of the Uboat on the water.
I think it is unwise to engage warships with the deck gun. Uboats were not designed for such action.


U-boats were never designed to be a gun platform, be it artillery or flak. Battleships/cruisers will have at least 12 - 20 (or more) 4-6 inch batteries and assorted large caliber machine guns which are very capable of causing the same amount of damage. Would imagine you were likely hit by several 5" shells simulataneously from a salvo, easily enough to tear a u-boat to pieces instantly.

Getting caught on the surface and having an unavoidable encounter is pure bad luck and while you wouldn't have any intentions on taking a large warship on it is going to engage you regardless. To purposely attack anything bigger than a DD is plain suicide; a DD is well capable of disposing of a u-boat quickly with their surface guns anyways. The only kind of situation where I'd consider attacking one on the surface is when it is the only escort for a small or large convoy of extremely high value targets. If taking out the DD lets you freely attack something like 3-4 tankers and 2-4 large cargo ships where you would be able to sink 100,000 (or more) tons worth of shipping would be cause for consideration, anything short is plain reckless given the danger.

A captain that chose to fire the main guns at a u-boat would probably have been punished at the time for wasting ordinance. In adjusted dollars, to fire 1 of the 14"/15" guns costs (in today's dollar) $8000-$10,000 per shell depending on the amount of powder used. BB didn't have a need to use their main batteries anyways (for that matter the same would apply to light/heavy cruisers) as the ample secondary batteries of 4"-6" guns was enough to pulpverize a u-boat.

[kapuhy]

A captain that chose to fire the main guns at a u-boat would probably have been punished at the time for wasting ordinance.

I doubt that at the time when casual way to destroy a single railroad station or factory in the middle of a city was sending a hundred bombers and erasing entire city from the map, any captain would be punished just because he used bigger gun than necessary to destroy the enemy ship. Despite that, no captain would probably order such an action, simply because it was not practical - secondary guns and escorts would have probably demolished the U-Boat before main battery even started to fire.

[Tessa]

I doubt that at the time when casual way to destroy a single railroad station or factory in the middle of a city was sending a hundred bombers and erasing entire city from the map, any captain would be punished just because he used bigger gun than necessary to destroy the enemy ship. Despite that, no captain would probably order such an action, simply because it was not practical - secondary guns and escorts would have probably demolished the U-Boat before main battery even started to fire.

High value targets that can be identified carpet bombing was the most efficient way to ensure its destruction; with so many bombers that got shot down each mission sheer overwhelming numbers were needed to ensure enough got to the target to ensure its destruction. Had the V-2 rocket assembly plants not been moved to Pentamunde where they were built into a mountain making their destruction from air practically impossible that city would have been erased like Dresden was.

Since all u-boats looked the same to opposing captains with little markings to distinguish them they never knew who they were up against. Had they had more distinguishing features that were customized to each ship as to make them identifiable if a captain caught an ace out in the open and in range of the main batteries they would have likely used everything possible. To have killed Prien, Kretschmer and the rest of "the old bunch" a year or 6 months earlier would have been well worth the expenditure to rid the seas of such skilled hunters.

[Iranon]

Long-range plunging fire from a 105mm tends to sink DDs quite nicely in GWX, haven't had much success with 88mm or at close range.

It's also possible to sink auxillary cruisers with just the deck gun, but it's rather foolhardy (from my experience, they really struggle to find you, but once they do things are going to turn ugly fast. Not sure if the substandard fire control is modeled or whether that's a natural consequence of having many small guns).


Armed trawlers and torpedo boats give me more headaches than anything larger.

[GoldenRivet]

Taking out DDs DEs and Armed trawlers with the deck gun - no matter if it is possible in the game or not - is extremely unrealistic and shouldn't be resorted to by any self respecting hard core player. (gamers can do as they wish though :shifty: )

here are 10 FACTS regarding the topic at hand:

ONE, the DDs were later equipped with radar range finders which could put a whole plunging fire-broadside right down your conning tower hatch from several miles away.

TWO, the turret traverse time on a destroyers main battery is much faster than the hand cranked u-boat deck gun and any close range engagements would be a disaster for you.

THREE, the typical U-boat deck gun would do little damage to an armored hull with HE rounds. and it is commonly accepted that u-boats carried only HE rounds. it is more probable that the repairs to the damage inflicted by your deck gun could be repaired by paint alone even with plunging fire. :haha:

FOUR, the destroyers are much faster than your sub and are very maneuverable. any fresh off the farm rookie escort commander would be jinking, zigzagging and maneuvering during a one on one surface fight making him one very tough target to hit.

FIVE, given #4 above... if you fired at a range of 7 miles it would take approximately 14 seconds for your round to travel down range. in 14 seconds, a destroyer moving at 32 knots has displaced his position by as much as 2 1/2 football fields meaning that carefully aimed round MIGHT have killed an unlucky fish. (ie, there is more to naval gunfiring than just putting a cross hair on a target as many naval sims might imply)

SIX, Destroyers rarely travel alone, which means he has friends in the immediate vicinity. even if you started mixing it up with a DD that only had two fore and one aft turret featuring one gun per turret- if this guy has ONE buddy... you are one fairly small 3.46" gun versus six big 5" guns.

SEVEN, the u-boats deck gun is a very short range weapon. While it is true that it has about a 7.4 mile range in a clinical setting, it is fitted to a highly unstable and unsuitable gun platform. Between the pitching, rolling and yawing of your boat... it would be a one in a million shot if you landed a round on a target further than about 1 or 2 KM away. (compare the 7.4 mile range of the 8.8 deck gun to the 5" Mk 12 naval gun with a range of 10 miles)

EIGHT, one hit on your sub... you likely are rendered incapable of diving. this is historically the number one reason U-boat commanders did not engage in gun duels... at least not the surviving ones. U-boats are armored against the pressure of the sea - not the pressure of a 5" armor piercing round. Any escort commander would know that one or two well placed shots with nearly any weapon on his boat... including 20-40mm AAA would render your u-boat either completely incapable of diving - or severely limit your capability to dive deep. either one of those scenarios totally negates the purpose of the u-boat and would place you at a serious tactical disadvantage bordering on the hopeless.

NINE, DDs- even if they didnt have radar- are equipped with long range, range finding optics and the guy looking through them could likely tell what color your eyes are. Your sub has binoculars and a UZO which do not even begin to compare as a gun sighting element.

TEN, Type VII U-boat armor... only 0.73" thick. a little thicker than a zippo lighter... but thinner than a deck of playing cards. just think of that 55 lb shell screaming toward your U-boat hull at 1770 mph



for realistic players... it makes ZERO tactical sense to go up against a DD in a surface engagement no matter how the game simulates it. Doing such a thing is a flying leap off the cliff of insanity.

[Missing Name]

Doing such a thing is a flying leap off the cliff of insanity.

Yup, that's me. I'm surprised I haven't been blown out of the water yet - apparently, I'm lucky.

[Sailor Steve]

here are 10 FACTS regarding the topic at hand:
I kind of hate to dispute your statements when I agree with the ideas and the conclusion, but many of your "facts" are wrong.

ONE, the DDs were later equipped with radar range finders which could put a whole plunging fire-broadside right down your conning tower hatch from several miles away.
ONE, even with radar naval gunnery was never that accurate. Several hundred yards away, sure. But miles? No. On the other hand it only takes one hit to turn a submarine into a very unstable surface ship with only one gun.

TWO, destroyers did indeed get fire control radar, but not until 1944.

On the other hand, they had stereoscopic visual rangefinders back in World War One, which is something submarines never had.

TWO, the turret traverse time on a destroyers main battery is much faster than the hand cranked u-boat deck gun and any close range engagements would be a disaster for you.
While twin mounts on British destroyers were powered, the single mounts were all hand-powered.

On the other hand, the American 5"/38 had a train rate of between 20 and 30 degrees per second, depending on the installation.

THREE, the typical U-boat deck gun would do little damage to an armored hull with HE rounds. and it is commonly accepted that u-boats carried only HE rounds. it is more probable that the repairs to the damage inflicted by your deck gun could be repaired by paint alone even with plunging fire. :haha:
No destroyer ever had an armored hull. Also, destroyers also only carried a semi-armor-piercing round, which is the same carried by u-boats. Actual HE is as rare to small warships as actual AP.

FOUR, the destroyers are much faster than your sub and are very maneuverable. any fresh off the farm rookie escort commander would be jinking, zigzagging and maneuvering during a one on one surface fight making him one very tough target to hit.
No, no commander is going to play dodge-em in a firefight. The same evasive maneuvering that makes him hard to hit would also make it nearly impossible for him to hit anything. There is no such thing as "locking-on" to a target. The Fire Control Officer has no idea if or when the captain is going to turn, so any such maneuvering will take him completely by surprise. The idea in naval gunnery is to have as stable a platform as possible. The only time you twist and turn is you're running for your life.

FIVE, given #4 above... if you fired at a range of 7 miles it would take approximately 14 seconds for your round to travel down range. in 14 seconds, a destroyer moving at 32 knots has displaced his position by as much as 2 1/2 football fields meaning that carefully aimed round MIGHT have killed an unlucky fish. (ie, there is more to naval gunfiring than just putting a cross hair on a target as many naval sims might imply)
Absolutely true.

SIX, Destroyers rarely travel alone, which means he has friends in the immediate vicinity. even if you started mixing it up with a DD that only had two fore and one aft turret featuring one gun per turret- if this guy has ONE buddy... you are one fairly small 3.46" gun versus six big 5" guns.
True again. Even if he's alone it's three guns against one.

SEVEN, the u-boats deck gun is a very short range weapon. While it is true that it has about a 7.4 mile range in a clinical setting, it is fitted to a highly unstable and unsuitable gun platform. Between the pitching, rolling and yawing of your boat... it would be a one in a million shot if you landed a round on a target further than about 1 or 2 KM away. (compare the 7.4 mile range of the 8.8 deck gun to the 5" Mk 12 naval gun with a range of 10 miles)
Also true, but the same holds for his chances of hitting you. Even with the longer range, most hits are going to take place inside of one mile. That said, I would reiterate here that...wait, I was going to say what you say in your next point.

EIGHT, one hit on your sub... you likely are rendered incapable of diving. this is historically the number one reason U-boat commanders did not engage in gun duels... at least not the surviving ones. U-boats are armored against the pressure of the sea - not the pressure of a 5" armor piercing round. Any escort commander would know that one or two well placed shots with nearly any weapon on his boat... including 20-40mm AAA would render your u-boat either completely incapable of diving - or severely limit your capability to dive deep. either one of those scenarios totally negates the purpose of the u-boat and would place you at a serious tactical disadvantage bordering on the hopeless.
Exactly. And that is the single most important point, which games never seem to get right.

Note on the line I put into bold type: Even if those light guns do no damage, they're still going to kill everybody on deck. We've had players give "advice" on surfacing behind a Flower-class corvette because his only big gun is at the other end. The one time I know of in real life where this happened, but u-boat's deck gun crew were all killed by the corvette's 40mm AA gun before they even got the plug out of the gun.

NINE, DDs- even if they didnt have radar- are equipped with long range, range finding optics and the guy looking through them could likely tell what color your eyes are. Your sub has binoculars and a UZO which do not even begin to compare as a gun sighting element.
I guess I spoke too soon back in Point One.

TEN, Type VII U-boat armor... only 0.73" thick. a little thicker than a zippo lighter... but thinner than a deck of playing cards. just think of that 55 lb shell screaming toward your U-boat hull at 1770 mph
Also true, but I need to point out that the thickest destroyer hull is only .5" thick. The WW1 holdover 'V' and 'W' classes aren't even that thick.

On the other hand destroyers are designed to float, and to stay afloat in the face of several shell hits. Submarines are designed to sink, and making even one hole in the hull just helps it along.


for realistic players... it makes ZERO tactical sense to go up against a DD in a surface engagement no matter how the game simulates it. Doing such a thing is a flying leap off the cliff of insanity.
And that's the other main point. While on occasion a submarine skipper found himself forced to use torpedoes while surfaced as the only means of survival, not one ever took on a surface warship in a gunfight.

[GoldenRivet]

Wow Steve way to dissect the vague generalities of my post on a cellular level:har:

I avoided specifics for this very reason.


ONE, even with radar naval gunnery was never that accurate. Several hundred yards away, sure. But miles? No. On the other hand it only takes one hit to turn a submarine into a very unstable surface ship with only one gun.

i thought it obvious that dropping shells down the hatch was a bit of an exaggeration :yawn:

TWO, destroyers did indeed get fire control radar, but not until 1944.

exactly why i said "were later equipped"

On the other hand, they had stereoscopic visual rangefinders back in World War One, which is something submarines never had.

See point number nine

While twin mounts on British destroyers were powered, the single mounts were all hand-powered.

I'll try to be more specific as to an exact nationality and class... in no way did i intend for my comment to encompass every single destroyer class.

No destroyer ever had an armored hull. Also, destroyers also only carried a semi-armor-piercing round, which is the same carried by u-boats. Actual HE is as rare to small warships as actual AP.

based on my 3-5 minutes of research while making that post... Destroyer escorts lacked hull armor yes... this one was another bit of dramatics on my part... you might poke a hole... you might poke 30 holes. but you would also be surface debris before you got that far.


No, no commander is going to play dodge-em in a firefight. The same evasive maneuvering that makes him hard to hit would also make it nearly impossible for him to hit anything. There is no such thing as "locking-on" to a target. The Fire Control Officer has no idea if or when the captain is going to turn, so any such maneuvering will take him completely by surprise. The idea in naval gunnery is to have as stable a platform as possible. The only time you twist and turn is you're running for your life.

i'll give you 50/50 on this one. I think what a commander does is up to the commander and is therefore unpredictable... unlike in SH3 when we can more or less guess their next course of action most of the time. a commander is going to do one of two things for sure 1) B-line at high speed or 2) maneuver. which he does is anyones guess. which either choice he makes gives extra credit to point number 5 :smug:


I guess I spoke too soon back in Point One.

:haha:

Also true, but I need to point out that the thickest destroyer hull is only .5" thick. The WW1 holdover 'V' and 'W' classes aren't even that thick.

this is a mistake i made in my post in being so general. is the original post talking about deck gunning only destroyers? or destroyer escorts? frigates? or ANY armed military vessel?

On the other hand destroyers are designed to float, and to stay afloat in the face of several shell hits.

more the point i should have driven home rather than use the whole hard to sink because of steel argument.

not one ever took on a surface warship in a gunfight.

our conclusions, however the math, appear to match :salute::D

[GoldenRivet]

oh and one more thing


you were right to add the fact about the men being cut down on deck

that hadn't occurred to me to put that on the list.

those deck gunners may as well be standing there naked with big targets painted on them... absolutely no cover.

[Sailor Steve]

I said at the start that I was disputing some of your claimed "Facts", but on the whole I agreed. My whole point was that when you emphasize something to make a point (and you did use specifics, despite your claim to the contrary) you should get those specifics right.

[GoldenRivet]

I knew what you meant. I was being jovial... Or trying to anyhow.

No harm no foul.

As for specifics? I wasn't referring to any singular warship class is what I meant

[Missing Name]

I'm not insane enough to take on more than one escort... one is suicidal enough. I've also learned that if I am to engage on the surface, I'd better take out the hedgehogs as well.

Clemsons seem to have the best floating ability. Hunts... not so much. A Flower or trawler will take only a short time. Enemy submarines are extremely hard to hit.

And sailboats... one shell?

[GoldenRivet]

And sailboats... one shell?

yes. two things though:

1. if you hit a sailboat with a High Explosive round it would likley be reduced to driftwood with one or two hits.

2. why are you out sinking pleasure cruisers? i avoid them and only sink them if i am detected by them



:haha:

[Gargamel]

yes. two things though:

1. if you hit a sailboat with a High Explosive round it would likley be reduced to driftwood with one or two hits.

2. why are you out sinking pleasure cruisers? i avoid them and only sink them if i am detected by them



:haha:

For the ingame equivalent of post count. Same reason I posted this. :P:rotfl2:

But I still do it. They could be RN spies or patrols. But I'll usually use my AA for that. Waste of ammo from my main gun.

[Tessa]

And that's the other main point. While on occasion a submarine skipper found himself forced to use torpedoes while surfaced as the only means of survival, not one ever took on a surface warship in a gunfight.

There are a few occasions (historically) where captain actively engaged trawlers; while a trawler still had guns enough to sink you I wouldn't put it into the same class as a warship per se.

[Sailor Steve]

Did the kaleuns know they were armed trawlers before engaging? U-boats also shot down quite a few planes, but it was never a good idea. :dead:

[Iranon]

Whether something is a good idea or not, I want the game to simulate consequences accurately if possible.

I'm not sure if destroyers are too fragile. I'm fairly sure small ships including u-boats are too sturdy, u-boats should probably also run into more trouble when submerging when damaged. And while it should be nearly impossible to deliberately hit a plane with a deck gun... it shouldn't keep flying if you do!

Come to think of it, I'm not sure if a shell would explode after hitting a wooden sailboat.

[Tessa]

Did the kaleuns know they were armed trawlers before engaging? U-boats also shot down quite a few planes, but it was never a good idea. :dead:

They were all well aware of what they were getting into. Cases where the captains intentionally engaged armed trawlers is pretty much exclusive to the first six months of the America's campaign. They were exploiting the crews (and captain's) inexperience in knowing how to deal with u-boats at that time. Most of these attacks were also carried out with type IX's, with the bigger deck gun they had better odds than the measly one on the VII's. OKM wanted the refineries close to land destroyed when possible via their deck guns; save early in the war captains used their deck guns much more than they normally would have.

[Gargamel]

Just read in blair's book about a U-boat (can't think of it now, somebody will remind me) that surfaced to the stern of a Trawler, attempting to sink with a deck gun, the Kaleun an ex-surface captain if I remember. The machine guns kept the crew pinned in the conning tower, Killing a few of them (Kaleun, 1WO, and 2WO too I think). Eventually I believe the highest remaining officer scuttled the boat.

Could be way off, read that part while bopping down the road on the way to a call.

[Tessa]

Just read in blair's book about a U-boat (can't think of it now, somebody will remind me) that surfaced to the stern of a Trawler, attempting to sink with a deck gun, the Kaleun an ex-surface captain if I remember. The machine guns kept the crew pinned in the conning tower, Killing a few of them (Kaleun, 1WO, and 2WO too I think). Eventually I believe the highest remaining officer scuttled the boat.

Could be way off, read that part while bopping down the road on the way to a call.

Most of the encounters had a high price to pay, will look it up later exactly which boat it was; the kaleun was patrolling and came across a trawler in a blind spot. As he got closer he noticed there was no one maning the guns and sunk it. After the war it was found that the crew was attempting to repair the main deck gun which was out of commision and didn't have anyone at the stern at that particular moment the u-boat snuck up.

Was another kaleun that was having a horrible patrol, hadn't sunk any ships (was patrolling in the gulf of Mexico region) and had already expended nearly all his torpedoes that either missed or failed. In desperation to sink anything he engaged a trawler and a sloop; which were his only 2 sinkings of that patrol. Upon return he was relieved of his command and "sent elsewhere" despite the brazenly bold (and stupid) successful attack on the trawler.

[desirableroasted]

Taking out DDs DEs and Armed trawlers with the deck gun - no matter if it is possible in the game or not - is extremely unrealistic and shouldn't be resorted to by any self respecting hard core player. (gamers can do as they wish though :shifty: )

here are 10 FACTS regarding the topic at hand:

ONE, the DDs were later equipped with radar range finders which could put a whole plunging fire-broadside right down your conning tower hatch from several miles away.

TWO, the turret traverse time on a destroyers main battery is much faster than the hand cranked u-boat deck gun and any close range engagements would be a disaster for you.

THREE, the typical U-boat deck gun would do little damage to an armored hull with HE rounds. and it is commonly accepted that u-boats carried only HE rounds. it is more probable that the repairs to the damage inflicted by your deck gun could be repaired by paint alone even with plunging fire. :haha:

FOUR, the destroyers are much faster than your sub and are very maneuverable. any fresh off the farm rookie escort commander would be jinking, zigzagging and maneuvering during a one on one surface fight making him one very tough target to hit.

FIVE, given #4 above... if you fired at a range of 7 miles it would take approximately 14 seconds for your round to travel down range. in 14 seconds, a destroyer moving at 32 knots has displaced his position by as much as 2 1/2 football fields meaning that carefully aimed round MIGHT have killed an unlucky fish. (ie, there is more to naval gunfiring than just putting a cross hair on a target as many naval sims might imply)

SIX, Destroyers rarely travel alone, which means he has friends in the immediate vicinity. even if you started mixing it up with a DD that only had two fore and one aft turret featuring one gun per turret- if this guy has ONE buddy... you are one fairly small 3.46" gun versus six big 5" guns.

SEVEN, the u-boats deck gun is a very short range weapon. While it is true that it has about a 7.4 mile range in a clinical setting, it is fitted to a highly unstable and unsuitable gun platform. Between the pitching, rolling and yawing of your boat... it would be a one in a million shot if you landed a round on a target further than about 1 or 2 KM away. (compare the 7.4 mile range of the 8.8 deck gun to the 5" Mk 12 naval gun with a range of 10 miles)

EIGHT, one hit on your sub... you likely are rendered incapable of diving. this is historically the number one reason U-boat commanders did not engage in gun duels... at least not the surviving ones. U-boats are armored against the pressure of the sea - not the pressure of a 5" armor piercing round. Any escort commander would know that one or two well placed shots with nearly any weapon on his boat... including 20-40mm AAA would render your u-boat either completely incapable of diving - or severely limit your capability to dive deep. either one of those scenarios totally negates the purpose of the u-boat and would place you at a serious tactical disadvantage bordering on the hopeless.

NINE, DDs- even if they didnt have radar- are equipped with long range, range finding optics and the guy looking through them could likely tell what color your eyes are. Your sub has binoculars and a UZO which do not even begin to compare as a gun sighting element.

TEN, Type VII U-boat armor... only 0.73" thick. a little thicker than a zippo lighter... but thinner than a deck of playing cards. just think of that 55 lb shell screaming toward your U-boat hull at 1770 mph



for realistic players... it makes ZERO tactical sense to go up against a DD in a surface engagement no matter how the game simulates it. Doing such a thing is a flying leap off the cliff of insanity.

Excellent post! It won't deter any of the "Hey I just downloaded SH3 and I am going after destroyers" cowboys, but it is instructive reading.

Thanks!

[Missing Name]

Despite everyone telling me how bad of an idea this is, I still get a kick out of reversing the hunter/hunted roles.

[Sailor Steve]

As noted earlier, these games usually reward ahistorical tactics. What would get you killed quickly in real life is a winning tactic in the game.

Personally I hate that, and wish someone would make a sim that actually works correctly.

[Schwieger]

As noted earlier, these games usually reward ahistorical tactics. What would get you killed quickly in real life is a winning tactic in the game.

Personally I hate that, and wish someone would make a sim that actually works correctly.

Are there no mods to fix the issue?

[Gargamel]

Are there no mods to fix the issue?

It's the engine, which we don't have access to.