Neutrals are supposed to be NEUTRAL

[Missing Name]

It was November 1941. I was patrolling the North Atlantic when I came across a nice, slow whale factory ship. Full blackout, and a rather nasty looking deck gun mounted aft. So I sank her. Went to external cam.

American flag.

Did a little research and found out that American ships did indeed start arming themselves in early November.

And also, a few months earlier, I came across an American microconvoy. There was a lit large tanker followed by a tramp steamer. The tanker didn't care, but the tramp steamer appeared to be taking evasive maneuvers. I came quite close, so there's no way the big guy didn't see me.

Has anyone else come across stuff like this?

[NightCrawler]

As you aware, American join the war in 1942, so yes when you torp a yank in 1941 considered neutral...

you second statement, it happens me close to Canarian Island..
A tanker and a small merchant together, the small merchant protect the tanker.. i took them both out with deckgun at range 2500, merchant first because he had the deckgun... and always keep the best at last, the tanker, nice fire-works :P

[Gerald]

You meant, of course, that they entered the war in 1941, December 11/12

[Gargamel]

Standing orders from BDU were that any unlit or armed ship in the blockade zone may be sunk without confirmation of flag.

I edited my renown so I wouldnt get penalized (nor rewarded) for hitting a neutral.

[Kip Chiakopf]

Just happened to me. I found two ships, a small cargo ship and a small tanker, traveling at night without lights. I put one on the bottom, only to discover it was neutral. I got dinged on Renown pointss.

[Gerald]

Yes at night or in poor visibility conditions, could easily something like that happen, :yep:

[Capt. Morgan]

Any truly Neutral ship steaming through a war zone with it's flag darkened deserves what it gets. Masquerading as a belligerent is not a wise decision.

Sorry for her crew. If I was commanding the sub that sank her, I think I'd have a look through the life boats for her captain - just to make sure he went down with his ship.

[mookiemookie]

While standing orders were to sink neutrals acting as belligerents (sailing blacked out in war zones) you still would have been called on the carpet and reprimanded for sinking an American ship. At this point, Hitler was trying to avoid confrontation with the U.S. at all costs. Of course the U.S. took advantage of that fact, but still.

[Tessa]

Best solution to the problem I've seen is to edit the basic.cfg so that sinking neutrals does nothing, ie. neutral=0 During Drumbeat several Brazilian ships were sunk in American waters by u-boats - they were all blackened out. It was an enforced policy that ships travelling in certain areas were required to be blacked out, regardless of their position (Axis, Allied or Neutral) in the war.

There can be neutral ships intermixed with large convoys, to take the time to inspect the ships for their flags was unreasonable if there were travelling in one of the Allied convoy lanes. Sinking a neutral ship was never a good idea and not something any ever did deliberately, and most captain only did it once; but they didn't get court marshalled over it.

[VONHARRIS]

I will definetanetaly sink a neutral sailing in a convoy. She is escorted by enemy warships so she is considered enemy. Also a darkened ship can not be identified as neutral or not so if the tonnage is good I will attack. Of course I have changed the basic.cfg to avoid renown penalty.

I have an other question now: Suppose you trail a ship and you find out that she is a hospital ship with all lights on , and as soon you break off you are attacked by enemy fighters. Besides hitting the aircrafts or crash diving will fire upon the hospital ship? I know that in the game they are considered strictry neutral (Red cross) but in RL they were Navy aux sometimes they were even armed.

[Kapt Z]

While standing orders were to sink neutrals acting as belligerents (sailing blacked out in war zones) you still would have been called on the carpet and reprimanded for sinking an American ship. At this point, Hitler was trying to avoid confrontation with the U.S. at all costs. Of course the U.S. took advantage of that fact, but still.

Agreed.

IIRC the Germans were almost as suprised as us(USA) when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

[Herr-Berbunch]

I have an other question now: Suppose you trail a ship and you find out that she is a hospital ship with all lights on , and as soon you break off you are attacked by enemy fighters. Besides hitting the aircrafts or crash diving will fire upon the hospital ship? I know that in the game they are considered strictry neutral (Red cross) but in RL they were Navy aux sometimes they were even armed.

Good old Wikipedia to the rescue...

Hospital ships were covered under the Hague Convention X of 1907. Article four of the Hague Convention X outlined the restrictions for a hospital ship:


Ship must be clearly marked and lighted as a hospital ship
The ship should give medical assistance to wounded personnel of all nationalities
The ship must not be used for any military purpose
Ships must not interfere or hamper enemy combatant vessels
Belligerents as designated by the Hague Convention can search any hospital ship to investigate violations of the above restrictions

If any of the above restrictions were violated the ship was determined to be an enemy combatant and could be lawfully attacked. However, to deliberately fire on or to sink a Hospital ship complying with regulations would be a war crime.

[papa_smurf]

Yes at night or in poor visibility conditions, could easily something like that happen, :yep:

That has happened to me on many an occasion. Just because a ship is unlit at night, does not mean its neutral:damn:

[Missing Name]

Whoops, I did mean 1941. Now it's 1942, so all dark ships are fair game.

That big 5-inch gun looked threatening. So of course I sank her! And now I'm editing my ini to say neutrals are neutral points. There.

And attacking or sinking a hospital ship is one of the biggest jerk moves you can pull off, in my books. But they sound so much like ocean liners on the froo froo...

[papa_smurf]

[QUOTE]And attacking or sinking a hospital ship is one of the biggest jerk moves you can pull off, in my books.[/QUOTE

If you sink one (even mistakenly), its career over:yep:.

[VONHARRIS]

I have no intension to attack a hospital ship , but Neutrals are supposed to be Neutrals. Calling in air support is a direct violation of the neutrality rules , but this is not scripted in the game.

Perhaps a modder can make such a mod....

[krashkart]

That has happened to me on many an occasion. Just because a ship is unlit at night, does not mean its neutral:damn:

I joined those ranks awhile back. :haha:

It's annoying sometimes when I sink an unlit neutral. I try not to fire without giving a proper visual inspection, but every so often I trick myself into thinking that a quick shot will result in sending the enemy to the bottom.

The worst is when the soup closes in and I can't see anything beyond a couple hundred meters. Sank a few neutrals that way, too. Blasted weather. :dead::)

[Gerald]

I joined those ranks awhile back. :haha:

It's annoying sometimes when I sink an unlit neutral. I try not to fire without giving a proper visual inspection, but every so often I trick myself into thinking that a quick shot will result in sending the enemy to the bottom.

The worst is when the soup closes in and I can't see anything beyond a couple hundred meters. Sank a few neutrals that way, too. Blasted weather. :dead::) That kind of events can at worst be unavoidable, :doh:

[Jimbuna]

I joined those ranks awhile back. :haha:

It's annoying sometimes when I sink an unlit neutral. I try not to fire without giving a proper visual inspection, but every so often I trick myself into thinking that a quick shot will result in sending the enemy to the bottom.

The worst is when the soup closes in and I can't see anything beyond a couple hundred meters. Sank a few neutrals that way, too. Blasted weather. :dead::)


Sure...blame the weather :DL

[krashkart]

Sure...blame the weather :DL

:haha:
The Kaleun is never wrong. :arrgh!:

[STEED]

Its there fault for not being lit up for the world to see, there just asking for trouble with no lights on. :arrgh!:

[papa_smurf]

Sure...blame the weather :DL

Unless Bernard is manning the con tower:damn:

[Missing Name]

If they're armed, I'll take 'em down. It's that simple. Having a deck gun is proof that they are not going to be happy if I pop up next to them and offer them some butterbrot.

[Axeman3d]

I just sank my first neutral ship, on what is quickly turning into the worst patrol ever. I was off the Azores at my patrol point and found zilch, so headed over to Gibralta to catch any traffic coming out of the Med. I chased a convoy heading north and sank a couple of ships for 6 shots fired (boo) and then got slapped about by the escorts, so turned back to Gib to look for stragglers. On a moonless night out sails a darkened large merchant with no lights, and there's no way I can see his flag even in the external camera. One torp under his keel and he eventually sank, but it turned out he was Spanish. Why no lights, the bloody idiot!

[STEED]

I sunk a neutral today in broad daylight on a calm sea in a convoy. Not my fault the bloody moron decided to turn straight in to my T1 ell which was on its way to hit a large tanker.

Man I was...:hulk: :hulk: :hulk:

[vergol]

On a moonless night out sails a darkened large merchant with no lights, and there's no way I can see his flag even in the external camera. One torp under his keel and he eventually sank, but it turned out he was Spanish. Why no lights, the bloody idiot!

I recall reading somewhere that the game pre-generates the spawn list of all the ships you can encounter when you initially start a patrol. So if a country switches from neutral to enemy status during the patrol, the game may not register that until you get back to port. Thus you may see lit enemy ships or even dark neutral ships.

Feel free to correct me.

[Gargamel]

I recall reading somewhere that the game pre-generates the spawn list of all the ships you can encounter when you initially start a patrol. So if a country switches from neutral to enemy status during the patrol, the game may not register that until you get back to port. Thus you may see lit enemy ships or even dark neutral ships.

Feel free to correct me.


That may be true, but unless I'm mistaken, Spain stayed Neutral throughout the war. No reason for a Spanish ship not to look like the Las Veags strip.

[Axeman3d]

That's what I thought. Spain were technically neutral throughout the war, even though Franco had ties with Hitler going way back. Why no lights?

[Jack Cutter]

That's what I thought. Spain were technically neutral throughout the war, even though Franco had ties with Hitler going way back. Why no lights?

I too have sunk Spanish ships in game. I was patrolling near the upper coasts of Africa when I recieved sighting reports of two merchant ships. It was a dark rainy night (all stories are good with that added :D) and I was shocked at how large both ships where. I could see them in the dip of the horizon without my binos. I was practically frothing at the mouth, since there where no escorts. I raced ahead at full, and closed the distance to about 2K meters, and still couldn't verify their flags, but I knew there were both large tankers and still no escorts in sight! :woot:

I grew tired of trying to see their flags, and nothing was lit up. That was the only bit of info I felt I needed. So I fired all forward tubes. Two eels headed straight to each tanker...and happily all four ran true and exploded nicely...

And then their search lights went on, and those ships lit up like Christmas trees! Those jerks even had the audacity to finally swivel their spot lights to light up their flags....I couldn't believe it...they ran dark until it was too late, AND THEN shone lights on their flags....One ship sank, the other was lucky and limped off severely damaged... just like my Kaleun's career.

I found it highly odd that two large unescorted spanish tankers near africa would be running dark... until AFTER I attacked them. :down:

Perhaps all these neutrals running around without lights on are really just ships packed with their respective countrys' dregs of society...lol

[Sailor Steve]

That's what I thought. Spain were technically neutral throughout the war, even though Franco had ties with Hitler going way back. Why no lights?
Because the lighted ships are a separate type, and the lights are tied directly to that type. The game assigns flags randomly. The two different concepts cannot be reconciled within the limitations of the game.

[Tessa]

Historically neutrals were sometimes subject to enforced blackouts depending on where they sailing around. This mostly applied to the America's were the most neutral ships were sunk (in the shortest period of time) due to an enforced blackout rule for any shis sailing in or between certain area's at night. Several Brazillian ships were mistakenly sunk and Mexican ships (afterwards the Mexico which was neutral flipped sides to the allies after feeling betrayed for being neutral, Brazil wasn't exactly happy either) as well. Inside a port though or alone at sea I've yet to see a neutral not properly lit up.

Sinking a hospital ship is nothing but pure bad karma. There's a good chance many of your own country's casualties may be on board. Even in poor weather those things are lit up like Christmas Tree's, something so large so well lit up is probably not doing so for the sake of trying to be stealthy; its doing everything short of keying down the radio and screaming out Hospital Ship!

[Jimbuna]

If they're armed, I'll take 'em down. It's that simple. Having a deck gun is proof that they are not going to be happy if I pop up next to them and offer them some butterbrot.

Don't matter if they are armed or not....try it and if the vessel is classified as a neutral (an American DD for example in early days) you will not be fired upon.

[Jack Cutter]

Historically neutrals were sometimes subject to enforced blackouts depending on where they sailing around. This mostly applied to the America's were the most neutral ships were sunk (in the shortest period of time) due to an enforced blackout rule for any shis sailing in or between certain area's at night. Several Brazillian ships were mistakenly sunk and Mexican ships (afterwards the Mexico which was neutral flipped sides to the allies after feeling betrayed for being neutral, Brazil wasn't exactly happy either) as well. Inside a port though or alone at sea I've yet to see a neutral not properly lit up.

Sinking a hospital ship is nothing but pure bad karma. There's a good chance many of your own country's casualties may be on board. Even in poor weather those things are lit up like Christmas Tree's, something so large so well lit up is probably not doing so for the sake of trying to be stealthy; its doing everything short of keying down the radio and screaming out Hospital Ship!

LOL. Maybe they should install some mega phones and try screaming that out every 5 mins. Being on that post for an eight hour duration would suck...:rotfl2:
Does GWX actually feature hospital ships? I haven't been playing it for very long, but I haven't seen any around. Are they only in a certain area?

[Gerald]

@Jack Cutter!
Hospital ships, you can see in the western part of the British Isles, or in the Irish Sea or the Mediterranean or when sailing in principle, anywhere, and they are often located in harbors, but of course it changes as the war continues.

[Tessa]

Hospital ships are most frequently seen in harbors, though its a bit uncommon they can be sailing around the major shipping lanes transporting casualties around. If visibility is poor or worse and you can make out a large lit up ship in your scope best option is to dive and look very very closely before considering firing or just let it pass, its likely either a hospital or neutral ship.

[Sailor Steve]

...a large lit up ship in your scope...its likely either a hospital or neutral ship.
It's certainly one of those. The game doesn't give lit ships - they are a mod and all lit ships are neutral or hospital ships.

[Gargamel]

It's certainly one of those. The game doesn't give lit ships - they are a mod and all lit ships are neutral or hospital ships.

And they're always big heavy tonnage porkers that you'd love to sink.... and can't. :nope:

[papa_smurf]

I sunk a neutral today in broad daylight on a calm sea in a convoy. Not my fault the bloody moron decided to turn straight in to my T1 ell which was on its way to hit a large tanker.

Man I was...:hulk: :hulk: :hulk:

Keep telling yourself that once you get back to report to Herr Doenitz:D

[Tinman764]

So If I want to edit my basic.cfg to allow me to sink neutrals (for immersion purposes only of course!) what lines shoud I edit?

RenownReachGridObjCompleted=0
RenownPatrolGridObjCompleted=0
CompletedPatrol=0
NEUTRAL=-1
ALLIED=1
AXIS=-10
WrongShipSunk=-5000
FirstRankRenown=100
SecondRankRenown=350
EndCampaign=-5000

Set Neutral=0, or WrongShipSunk=0 ?

Cheers! :salute:

[K-61]

Yes, that's it. I edit mine to read "1." My rationale is that neutrals carrying cargo to Britain are a legitimate target, because they are in a British guarded convoy. I do not use this hack to sink just any neutral simply for the purpose of running up tonnage scores.

[Gargamel]

Yes, that's it. I edit mine to read "1." My rationale is that neutrals carrying cargo to Britain are a legitimate target, because they are in a British guarded convoy. I do not use this hack to sink just any neutral simply for the purpose of running up tonnage scores.

Valid argument there, as the ROE stated that. But they're still neutral, so would possibly making it like .5 or .25 work? I just ask cause I'd be worried about not using whole numbers.

[Sailor Steve]

I use 0, for the simple reason that it discourages me from even thinking about it. I also reduced friendlies to -1, because the few times it did happen the kaleun was always exonerated.

[Tinman764]

What does the WrongShipSunk=-5000 line do?

Reason I ask is, having started a new career with the 7th using GWX, you are ordered to sink the ships in the bay and await further orders.
The ships are British and the date is proir to Britain joining the war. I've done this mission twice and both times I was fired on and sunk by friendlies on returning to port.

[Tessa]

Yes, that's it. I edit mine to read "1." My rationale is that neutrals carrying cargo to Britain are a legitimate target, because they are in a British guarded convoy. I do not use this hack to sink just any neutral simply for the purpose of running up tonnage scores.

If you are truly honest with yourself, and choose to fire on neutral targets in situations where they would considered combatants (in a convoy or escorted by warships) and only choosing legitimate targets using '1' would be quite justified. There are times when the neutral ships was definitely acting as a belligerent and would have been considered a valid target; the rub is being honest with yourself not to abuse it and only fire on neutral targets in such situations that would have warranted getting credit for them.

Problem still lies that if you do sink a neutral on accident you'll get credit for it. As Steve points out using a '0' is a better alternative for most people; with that setting you get the same kind of results as those who did accidently sink neutrals in the war - no credit. The only negative point you suffer is the loss of the torpedos used to sink the ship. When you run into a convoy on your return home you'll really want those eels back that were expended on the neutral ship to use on real targets.

[Tessa]

What does the WrongShipSunk=-5000 line do?

Reason I ask is, having started a new career with the 7th using GWX, you are ordered to sink the ships in the bay and await further orders.
The ships are British and the date is proir to Britain joining the war. I've done this mission twice and both times I was fired on and sunk by friendlies on returning to port.

That's the renown you loose if you sink a hospital ship.

[Randomizer]

There is no right way to play. Obviously it's a personal issue how one wishes to treat neutrals but to advocate for the status quo, that is a renown loss for sinking non-belligerents, consider this:

Even towards the end of the war the Reich Foriegn Office was trying very hard to keep additions from the list of Germany's enemies. Sinking neutral shipping was no help in this at all and indeed, attacks on neutrals frequently resulted in the victim's country taking some sort of diplomatic action against Germany over the long run or in a manner not to Germany's advantage. Spain's Franco certainly exploited the loss of Spanish ships to U-Boats to the Nazi's detriment as did Portugal, Brazil and before December 10 1941, the biggest neutral of them all, the USA.

So if the flotilla commander or even BdU signed off on sinking a neutral ship, it is unlikely you would be making many friends in high places.

In the late war one seldom has the luxury to actually identify the nationality of the target. If I get home and learn that I sank a Swede or Mexican, I have no issue with taking the renown hit imposed by GWX3.

[Tessa]

There is no right way to play. Obviously it's a personal issue how one wishes to treat neutrals but to advocate for the status quo, that is a renown loss for sinking non-belligerents, consider this:

Even towards the end of the war the Reich Foriegn Office was trying very hard to keep additions from the list of Germany's enemies. Sinking neutral shipping was no help in this at all and indeed, attacks on neutrals frequently resulted in the victim's country taking some sort of diplomatic action against Germany over the long run or in a manner not to Germany's advantage. Spain's Franco certainly exploited the loss of Spanish ships to U-Boats to the Nazi's detriment as did Portugal, Brazil and before December 10 1941, the biggest neutral of them all, the USA.

So if the flotilla commander or even BdU signed off on sinking a neutral ship, it is unlikely you would be making many friends in high places.

In the late war one seldom has the luxury to actually identify the nationality of the target. If I get home and learn that I sank a Swede or Mexican, I have no issue with taking the renown hit imposed by GWX3.

Sinking US ships was the most heinous thing one could even think prior to their entry to the war. Germany tried their best to keep them out of the war, or at least prolong their entry as they knew (as Yamamato said) that attacking them would wake the sleeping beast. What really become a hot potatoe was when the US occupied Iceland and put a fleet there, and several times had used their warships as escorts in situations were they were unquestionably acting as allied belligerents. It infuriated skippers that they couldn't sink these ships that were clearly breaking the rules of neutrality in order to keep the US out of the war at the time.

As you mention, sinking neutrals didn't make you any friends; though I don't think any single captain ever sank more than 1 neutral ship in their career? During the campaign off the East Coast of the US/Carribean was when the largest number of neutrals were sunk. Once the US had entered the war the entire continent became fair game, unfortunately a lot of neutrals got caught in the process.

Mexico switched to the allies side after an accidental sinking of one of their tankers off the East Coast, Brazil wasn't very happy as they had a fair number sunk off the East Coast as well. Save the times when the US were acting on the side of the allies (while still claiming to be neutral) was the main time when sinking of (what then were) neutral US ships would have been perfectly within the rules of engagement. Since Germany wanted to keep the US out of the war captains did make a concerted effort to avoid US ships.

[kroll688]

I attacked an "enemy convoy" yesterday. Playing GWX in November 1939. In the middle column I sank one ship that was Danish, did not even look for flags as it was an escorted convoy. I believe you still get credit for the tonnage, just a renown minus. I was a bit perplexed at first, but just chalked it up to how the politics of the time are reflected in game play.

[Missing Name]

It's funny, most times I see hospital ships they're already run aground or smoking. I just don't get why.

[Gargamel]

It's funny, most times I see hospital ships they're already run aground or smoking. I just don't get why.

They of all ships should know that smoking is bad for you.


(Sorry, just the visual I had after all the Xmas eve cocktails I've consumed)

[Synthfg]

I know that in the Great War, especially towards the end alot of UK hospital ships were deliberately sunk by submarines, but does anyone have the stats to hand on WWII

[kapuhy]

As you mention, sinking neutrals didn't make you any friends; though I don't think any single captain ever sank more than 1 neutral ship in their career?

Meet Captain Harald Grosse, last commander of U-53:

http://www.uboat.net/men/commanders/388.html

He managed to sink 5 ships - all of them neutral. And he wasn't even that special - even famous aces like Schepke or Kretschmer are credited with several neutral ships.

I was surprised to see how many Swedish ship were sunk - these poor guys have been neutral all the time and yet they've lost more ships to the U-Boats then Canada or France.

[Axeman3d]

There is an old saying, "Fly with the crows, get shot with the crows". I recently attacked a well defended convoy from Gibraltar in early 1941 and although I fired at a couple of large British merchants the only thing that got sunk was some neutral small merchant. If you're in the middle of a British convoy sailing from a British colony to Britain under a British escort, I'd say you just gave up the whole 'neutral' defence.