NKorea threatens SKorea with nuclear war

[Gerald]

SEOUL, South Korea – North Korea warned Monday that U.S.-South Korean cooperation could bring a nuclear war to the region, as the South began artillery drills amid lingering tension nearly three weeks after the North's deadly shelling of a South Korean island.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/13/nkorea-threatens-skorea-nuclear-war/


Note:Published December 13, 2010

[Castout]

Did North Korea say when?

The world have been waiting for far too long . . . . . .


If they really want war they should get on it imo.

On the bright side if war erupts is that there's no better time for South Korea to reunify the Korean peninsula than now. Better now than a few decades down the line.

[Gerald]

A pronunciation country without a real sense, no one in the region want a war

[Castout]

no one in the region want a war

That's the problem. . .imo.

North Korea is not without a sense just a different one than what we normally know. We see this kind of behavior in some kids probably since primary school times. They too do not wish for war and perhaps that's the reason they are making themselves appear otherwise. At least we know they are now desperate.

If they reform their economy and political system instead making threats they probably could achieve more down the line.

[joegrundman]

A pronunciation country without a real sense

what does that mean?

[Jimbuna]

More sabre rattling....how tiresome :zzz:

[Oberon]

http://dmitrybrant.com/images/monty_python_god.png

"GET ON WITH IT!"

[Sledgehammer427]

They won't do it.
North Korea needs support from America and NATO in order to keep on rattling their saber and threatening things like this. They won't do it because then there will be nobody to support them.

In fact, North Korea is so laughable, Cracked can almost devote an entire subsection to him and I dug this up recently.
kim jong-il looking at things (http://kimjongillookingatthings.tumblr.com/)

[gimpy117]

north korea has nukes?

[TLAM Strike]

north korea has nukes?

They tested two A-Bombs. They barely managed to go off but they would no doubt ruin your day. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

Well I reckon it's about time they either pi$$ed or got off the pot....surely the Chinese are getting sick of being associated with them.

[FIREWALL]

I don't think China is going to back NK. N Korean Prez is a loose cannon and we know what happens to loose cannons.

[Diopos]

... and we know what happens to loose cannons.

Uhmm ... you tie them up? :hmmm:

.

[TLAM Strike]

N Korean Prez is a loose cannon and we know what happens to loose cannons.

Like Muammar al-Gaddafi?

Assassinations and kidnappings on foreign soil.
Invading his neighbors.
Supporting Terrorists incl. Black September.
Bombing passenger jets.
Mining the Red Sea.
Construction and use of ballistic missiles
WMD programs.
"The Line of Death".

Why is this dude still in power?

Don't say we haven't invaded Libya because they don't have oil... they do!

[FIREWALL]

Uhmm ... you tie them up? :hmmm:

.

Hey !!! Let's not talk about sexual practices here. :p2: :haha:

[Jimbuna]

Don't say we haven't invaded Libya because they don't have oil... they do!

Actually that's a very good point :hmmm:

[the_tyrant]

Hey !!! Let's not talk about sexual practices here. :p2: :haha:

its the internet
I'm sure somebody is turned on by Kim Jiong Il:DL

[Jimbuna]

its the internet
I'm sure somebody is turned on by Kim Jiong Il:DL

The only one that springs to mind is the individual in the centre.

http://www.graingertv.com/content_images/2/TigerKorean.gif

[TarJak]

Don't say we haven't invaded Libya because they don't have oil... they do!So what are you waiting for?:O:

[Gerald]

The top U.S. military officer said Monday that the danger of war or hostilities on the Korean peninsula is rising, as North Korea warned that cooperation between its southern neighbor and the United States could trigger a nuclear war.

Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told troops in Baghdad that North Korea has upped the ante in its aggression against South Korea -- a pattern he said is tied to preparations for Kim Jong Il to pass power to his son.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/13/mullen-warns-risk-war-rising-korean-peninsula/



Note:Update post, Published December 13, 2010

[Jimbuna]

Better start stocking up on rice for my curries then...there could soon be a shortage :O:

[Gerald]

A well delivered advice, :D

[Castout]

what does that mean?

I swear I checked the dictionary but couldn't find anything too :doh:


http://dmitrybrant.com/images/monty_python_god.png

"GET ON WITH IT!"

See? Even Oberon agree.:D

[TLAM Strike]

Better start stocking up on rice for my curries then...there could soon be a shortage :O: Don't worry most of your rice probably comes from South East Asia and the only people threatening war on that region are some of the crackpots hanging around outside the VA.

So what are you waiting for?:O: Well because Libya as you may or may not be aware is located in a desert, and not just any desert but the Sahara. Sahara is the Arabic word for 'desert', which should tell you a lot since the Arabs came from another desert. So when they walked out of their desert and found the Sahara they said "damn now this is a desert!"

... and damn it we are tired of fighting in deserts!! and these deserts have women who dress in bedsheets and they don't serve booze there! The moment they find oil in a tropically refreshing place with hot women and those drinks with the little umbrella in them we are so going to invade them!

[the_tyrant]

So what are you waiting for?:O:

Using video game terms(Victoria 2), the Infamy(BB) of the United states is rising
they have to wait a few years

[Dowly]

... and damn it we are tired of fighting in deserts!! and these deserts have women who dress in bedsheets and they don't serve booze there! The moment they find oil in a tropically refreshing place with hot women and those drinks with the little umbrella in them we are so going to invade them!

:DL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeUYE1XNO5E

[Gerald]

Interesting talk, :O:

[Platapus]

north korea has nukes?

The first one was a fizzle which means it only achieved criticality and not super criticality.

The second one suffered from pre-ignition which meant that parts of the pit went super critical but too soon.

The north koreans are still 0 for 2.

They are learning the cruel fact that the theory of nuclear weapons is easy to understand, the practical application is much more difficult. :yep:

[vienna]

Regarding Libya, if an attack on Libya were to be launched by the US, NATO, or any other western-leaning power, Israel would undoubtedly be the main victim of the aftermath. Islamic nations like Iran would use the attacks as an excuse to launch "reprisals" against Israel since they cannot attack the western powers directly. Add to this the likelyhood of a possible oil embargo by the exporting arab nations and there are few upsides to the situation. Still, I would very much enjoy seeing Gaddafi receive what has long been coming.

As far as North Korea goes, when the invasion of Iraq started, an anti-war co-worker of mine at the time argued why the U.S. was fighting a war against Saddam and not Kim Jong-Il. I asked her what country was directly on North Korea's northern border. She actually had to look it up on Google since she had no idea. When she saw it was China, she then asked what that had to do with not invading NK. I then had to breifly explain the history of the Korean War and the intervention by China when NK was being knocked back on its heels. China may not particularly like Kim and his madness, but they like even less the idea of a unified Korea with a western (U.S.) leading government directly on its border. China also likes having the NK sideshow to distract the rest of the world from its own actions.

Don't discount NK's ability to deliver firepower to the South. Although they are still lacking in intercontinental strike capability, they are very up to date on short range missile technology. NK is very adept at reverse-engineering weapon systems in general and missile systems in particular. They now provide client countries and groups like Hamas, etc. with knock-offs of some newer missiles. They don't need a big ICBM to reach South Korea, just a good long range cruise missle and they have a lot of those on hand.

But again, as with Gaddafi, I would love to see someone drop a nice U.S. cruise missile on Kim's pompadour..

[TLAM Strike]

Regarding Libya, if an attack on Libya were to be launched by the US, NATO, or any other western-leaning power, Israel would undoubtedly be the main victim of the aftermath. Islamic nations like Iran would use the attacks as an excuse to launch "reprisals" against Israel since they cannot attack the western powers directly. Add to this the likelyhood of a possible oil embargo by the exporting arab nations and there are few upsides to the situation. Still, I would very much enjoy seeing Gaddafi receive what has long been coming. Such reprisals would just give the Israelis an excuse to clean house across the region. The Arab militaries in the region have advanced in capabilities very little since the 1980s, except for Egypt and Saudi. They have picked up a couple fancy missiles here or there but they have very little to stop the IAF from just bombing them at will.

Based on those Wikileaks cables Saudi wants to see a lot of these terrorist groups in the region gone and Iran dealt with, so they might talk a lot but not do anything.

Don't discount NK's ability to deliver firepower to the South. Although they are still lacking in intercontinental strike capability, they are very up to date on short range missile technology. NK is very adept at reverse-engineering weapon systems in general and missile systems in particular. They now provide client countries and groups like Hamas, etc. with knock-offs of some newer missiles. They don't need a big ICBM to reach South Korea, just a good long range cruise missle and they have a lot of those on hand. North Korean's cruise missiles are decades obsolete. Their best indigenous cruise missile is the KN-01, but it just a turbojet powered silkworm with a range of only 100 km. Some PRC missiles they might be armed with (like the HY-2) have a range of 200 km, but those are still just silkworms with better engines. If your a middle east group like Hamas want cruise missiles you got to deal with Iran, which is building copies of Chinese missiles (except for the Ra'ad which is a North Korean type super silkworm).

My friends and I were just discussing this in how Iran's semi-submersibles came from North Korea armed with 324mm torpedoes instead of a light ASM like the C-701. Simply North Korea has no SSMs smaller than a Silkworm (which is huge for a ASM).

[Castout]

Another day without nuclear war . . . . . .

http://www.toonpool.com/user/4563/files/the_devil_517135.jpg
"WHAT'S THE HOLD UP?"

http://www.peacelab.org/pictures/nuclear_bomb.jpg

[Oberon]

Barry needs to get onto Hu, then the US can put their nukes in the ROK, China can put theirs in the DPRK...and we can have a nuclear war by proxy.
The Korean problem is solved, China gets to nuke America, America gets to nuke China, the internet gets lots of mushroom cloud pictures, rolling news gets in depth interviews with charred corpses, everybody wins!

[Castout]

Barry needs to get onto Hu, then the US can put their nukes in the ROK, China can put theirs in the DPRK...and we can have a nuclear war by proxy.
The Korean problem is solved, China gets to nuke America, America gets to nuke China, the internet gets lots of mushroom cloud pictures, rolling news gets in depth interviews with charred corpses, everybody wins!

:rotfl2:
http://www.pakalertpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ww3.jpg

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/kim_adp.jpg

The Korean problem is solvedExactly there's no Korean problem if there was no Korea peninsula :har:

[yubba]

Soooo, anybody got a bomb shelter they ain't use-ing.

[Takeda Shingen]

I plan on joining the Brotherood of Steel, so I'm all set. That'll be Paladin Tak to you all.

[ReFaN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSK-1guFLDk

[the_tyrant]

Such reprisals would just give the Israelis an excuse to clean house across the region. The Arab militaries in the region have advanced in capabilities very little since the 1980s, except for Egypt and Saudi. They have picked up a couple fancy missiles here or there but they have very little to stop the IAF from just bombing them at will.

Based on those Wikileaks cables Saudi wants to see a lot of these terrorist groups in the region gone and Iran dealt with, so they might talk a lot but not do anything.

North Korean's cruise missiles are decades obsolete. Their best indigenous cruise missile is the KN-01, but it just a turbojet powered silkworm with a range of only 100 km. Some PRC missiles they might be armed with (like the HY-2) have a range of 200 km, but those are still just silkworms with better engines. If your a middle east group like Hamas want cruise missiles you got to deal with Iran, which is building copies of Chinese missiles (except for the Ra'ad which is a North Korean type super silkworm).

My friends and I were just discussing this in how Iran's semi-submersibles came from North Korea armed with 324mm torpedoes instead of a light ASM like the C-701. Simply North Korea has no SSMs smaller than a Silkworm (which is huge for a ASM).

North Korea can simply put a small nuclear warhead in a gun round and fire it a far as possible towards the south.

[TLAM Strike]

North Korea can simply put a small nuclear warhead in a gun round and fire it a far as possible towards the south.

No they can't. The bombs North Korea tested are huge. Like the bombs we dropped on Japan. They can't fit in any normal sized gun. They are even too big to put on a rocket. The only way they could deliver them would be by medium bomber like a Il-28 'BEAGLE'.

EDIT: Also the poorly made bomb they got wouldn't do much damage. The 2nd test they made was in the 2 kT range (By design the bomb should have been in the 20 kT range). 2 kT is sufficient to destroy a single hardened target or a moderately sided installation; for example it could mostly destroy the ROKN base at Inchon, a major airbase like at Cheonan, but it is not going to obliterate all of Seoul. Sounds great for a tactical weapon but the bombs they tested were meant to be strategic weapons.

[SgtPotato]

http://dmitrybrant.com/images/monty_python_god.png

"GET ON WITH IT!"

Oh, Oberon...

You made my day. :har::har:

[the_tyrant]

No they can't. The bombs North Korea tested are huge. Like the bombs we dropped on Japan. They can't fit in any normal sized gun. They are even too big to put on a rocket. The only way they could deliver them would be by medium bomber like a Il-28 'BEAGLE'.

No suitcase nukes yet?
But nuclear Kamikaze attacks are still possible right?

[TLAM Strike]

No suitcase nukes yet?
But nuclear Kamikaze attacks are still possible right?


(Check my edited post)

Yea no suitcase nukes. They are decades away from anything close to that. What they have is like the bombs we had in the 1940s:
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/5967/fatmanassembledtinian19.jpg
^Yea that big...

About all they could rely on would be a old subsonic Beagle with a huge payload strapped to one wing. Or maybe a small sub like a Sang-O with its entire bow replaced with a nuclear bomb (even then it would need to sail in to the base at Inchon to do anything.) A buddy of mine suggested they could tunnel under Seoul to deliver, that is sufficiently crazy to work.

[mookiemookie]

I plan on joining the Brotherood of Steel, so I'm all set. That'll be Paladin Tak to you all.

I'm moving to New Reno. That place seems like a pretty swingin' town.

I'll say hi to Myron for you.

[Gerald]

A South Korean official believes the North has been secretly enriching uranium at more locations besides its main nuclear plant, Reuters reports.South Korean Foreign Minister Kim Sung-hwan says he could not confirm a report that Pyongyang had up to four nuclear plants that could enrich uranium, but suspected that North Korea did have more facilities."It is a report based on what is still intelligence and let me just say that we have been following this issue for some time," he said to Reuters.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/14/south-korea-believes-north-nuke-locations/



Note: Published December 14, 2010

[Oberon]

No real surprises there, you don't put all your eggs in one basket after all, and the DPRK is damn good at building stuff underground. Of course, their nukes are about the size of a small house, but I know the Dear Leader won't be satisfied until they can plonk a nuke on top of a Taepodong.

Another use TLAM Strike is a denial of advance. Put nukes in fake houses along the north side of the DMZ, if the US or ROK advances north, set them off.

[TLAM Strike]

No real surprises there, you don't put all your eggs in one basket after all, and the DPRK is damn good at building stuff underground. Of course, their nukes are about the size of a small house, but I know the Dear Leader won't be satisfied until they can plonk a nuke on top of a Taepodong. Maybe if they duct taped a couple of Taepodongs together the could deliver one! :haha: The bombs they are building weigh about 5,000 kg. The taepodong can lift 1/10 of that.

Another use TLAM Strike is a denial of advance. Put nukes in fake houses along the north side of the DMZ, if the US or ROK advances north, set them off. Won't work too well. For one the blast area is too small, second US and ROK forces have CBRN gear and armored vehicles to protect them from fallout so unless you are standing within a mile of that bomb you are only going to get badly shaken up, third they need to keep the bombs warm which means any thermal signature in those fake Potemkin villages they got will be the first things to get bombed once we get a hint of them doing that.

[Oberon]

Ten Taepodongs taped together? Heck, I'd pay to see that, the explosion would probably be bigger than the nuclear bombs (which would probably be a dud).

True, as a denial weapon I guess it would be rather limited, but then again in the media game, you've got to just inflict as much casualties as you can and last as long as you can until the US and EU media shows enough dead bodies coming home to set in war weariness. Pictures of mushroom clouds rising up over the DMZ, particularly if it's done on North soil, would make people question the decision to head north into the DPRK. :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

Ten Taepodongs taped together? Heck, I'd pay to see that, the explosion would probably be bigger than the nuclear bombs (which would probably be a dud). It would go something like this I think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79UO4HOQmc

True, as a denial weapon I guess it would be rather limited, but then again in the media game, you've got to just inflict as much casualties as you can and last as long as you can until the US and EU media shows enough dead bodies coming home to set in war weariness. The DMZ is 160 miles long, assuming the DPRK put all of its suspected bombs along the DMZ it would cover just about 8-10 miles of it. The situation gets worse if the DPRK has to plan for an amphibious or airborne assault.

There are going to be a lot of dead bodies but most are going to be North Korean. But then again there are a lot of people dieing in North Korea right now with no war. If the balloon goes up US and ROK response is going to be amazingly swift and deadly, by the time the amount of dead bodies makes the west queasy it could be over. We took out the Iraqi army in a month with almost nothing prepositioned, we have had 60 years to plan and stockpile for the North Korean Army.

Now if the DPRK does do this, and some South Korean reporter digs up my assessment and sticks it on the news I'm hiding at your house Oberon. ;)

Pictures of mushroom clouds rising up over the DMZ, particularly if it's done on North soil, would make people question the decision to head north into the DPRK. :hmmm: Then again some might say we need to get rid of someone who would nuke their own soil even more.

[Oberon]

It would go something like this I think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79UO4HOQmc

The DMZ is 160 miles long, assuming the DPRK put all of its suspected bombs along the DMZ it would cover just about 8-10 miles of it. The situation gets worse if the DPRK has to plan for an amphibious or airborne assault.

There are going to be a lot of dead bodies but most are going to be North Korean. But then again there are a lot of people dieing in North Korea right now with no war. If the balloon goes up US and ROK response is going to be amazingly swift and deadly, by the time the amount of dead bodies makes the west queasy it could be over. We took out the Iraqi army in a month with almost nothing prepositioned, we have had 60 years to plan and stockpile for the North Korean Army.

Now if the DPRK does do this, and some South Korean reporter digs up my assessment and sticks it on the news I'm hiding at your house Oberon. ;)

Then again some might say we need to get rid of someone who would nuke their own soil even more.

Good points all, and I'm sure I can hide you in the wardrobe somewhere alongside the tanks and helicopters. :03: A swift and decisive war against the North is a good outcome, however it is depending upon everything to work right first time. As we know, that doesn't always happen, an example that I recall was the laser guided bombs in the Kosovan war which had trouble during rain, as well as radar guided missiles having problems with reflections off tractors, and other objects in the countryside.
Now, even those problems aside, the DPRK is going to suffer extremely heavy casualties, however casualties on the Allied side might not be as light as you'd think, technology can only go so far and if the Koreans have learnt anything from the Vietnam war, then they will have plenty of roadside bombs and other traps as well as Korean undercover agents who stay behind in DPRK villages when the front line overtakes. Now, if the US public can be so divided over 629 average US soldier KIAs per year in Iraq (estimate), how many casualties will there be in a second Korean war?
Now, the first Korean war put out 36,516 US KIA, over a three year period of fighting, so an average of 12,712 per annum. Now, this is a completely different war to the one that we would fight if it all kicked off today, for one thing, the DPRK has no arms parity with us, back in the last war they had T-34s and lots of them, and the ROK was hideously unprepared, and their leader a murdering lunatic. However, we pulled off the Incheon landing and kicked them back over the DMZ and went north, only getting pushed back when the Chinese got involved.
Now, it's very unlikely the Chinese will get involved, the latest wikileaks indicate that they want a more stable government in Korea and reckon that a unified government under the ROK is that much more stable. So, we can march up to the Chinese border with no threat of the Chinese coming to meet us. That's good. However, casualties are still going to be at the level of or higher than the Iraqi war, that much surely must be certain, I mean, the DPRK may be years behind in technology but a bullet is still a bullet and a bomb is still a bomb. The Taliban is decades behind us in technology but they've still been damn hard to subdue.
Perhaps the North Korean people will welcome us with open arms? But then...we thought that of the Iraqis didn't we? And the Afghanis, and yes, some did, but others welcomed us with AKs and IEDs. Now, there's religion behind that, yes, and nothing drives a crowd like faith, but Kims personality cult day in and day out over sixty odd years must be a powerful force of its own, particularly if it is enforced by DPRK loyalist commandos, perhaps hiding in China and using the Chinese border to operate over into the former DPRK, just like Afghanistan and Pakistan...but we can't bomb over Chinas border, China wouldn't like that, but China wouldn't like the Allied forces to get away completely scot-free with an invasion and occupation/liberation of the DPRK and would encourage the US to tie down more forces in Korea and overstretch itself.
I do find it hard to believe that China would be happy with US forces that close to the Chinese border though...but likewise, the DPRK has been nothing but a continued annoyance. Unless China agrees to move in and take the north under its control when the war gets back to the DMZ, and then install a new more stable and easier to control government in Pyongyang...that's another idea.

However, there is one other factor which none of us have brought in whilst discussing a resumption of the Korean war. The economy.
Now, the Asian markets are on a fine line as it is, China is strong (ish), Japan is attempting to recover from the global slump which hit it so soon after the bubble burst, a resumption of the Korean war would smash the markets completely, and that's something China really does not need, and likewise America because if Chinas economy goes down the pan the America follows. Ok, America can pull itself out of the pan faster than China can, but it's still a side effect that's not going to be needed or wanted when coupled to news stories showing coffins draped in flags arriving back in airports in one shot, and market crashes and price rises in another.

Basically, if it was as easy as some people make out, I'm confident that it would have been done already. Therefore, other factors must be in play which discourage both Democrats and Republicans alike (bear in mind that the DPRKs been an absolute ass since 1953) from finishing the Korean job.

[TLAM Strike]

One thing I think we need to do is bring China in to this on our side. (Might be so difficult as some might think). After the huge air/missile/arty plastering the North gets drag them in to the UN (Korea is still a UN matter since the 1950 war) and demanded disarmament with Chinese forces compromising half the disarmament/peacekeeping force. China has a huge problem with people fleeing the DPRK in to China and ending up in all sorts of criminal activity (mostly against their will), and the North is providing WMDs and other weapons to nations in China's sphere of influence, and I doubt China wants that to continue. Their leadership must see that a unified and free Korea is in their best interests. Most of the Ideologues in the Chinese government are gone and they now mostly don't care that one nation is communist or not.

[vienna]

Well said, Oberon.
Much of the discussion has centered around scenarios where the U.S., the U.N., SEATO, or some other combination of some or all these, invades NK first. Given this then, yes, there will be as neat and clean an invasion as possible (I do agree with Oberon that a rear-guard/guerilla action would probably happen after the invasion). But what if NK strikes first? Remember, NK and its military is ruled by a family of fanatical madmen. If Kim Il-jong [or his son, an even bigger wildcard than his father] decides to invade SK, it will not be a classic military invasion to which the world has become accustomed. If Kim is in such a position that he feels he must invade, it will be full-force and savage. After all, in such a situation, he will have nothing to lose and he will probably choose to go down with one last hurrah. NK has a standing army of over 1.1 million with a reserve of over 4.7 million and they are all, relatively, in the same place, not spread over vast areas or in armed conflicts like the U.S. and its allies. An assault on SK would literally be the opening of the flood gates supported by armor, artillery, and air support going full-out (or in poker terms, “all-in”). Additionally, it has been long known that NK has placed operatives in SK with the purpose of not only spying on SK activities but to also actively sabotage or disrupt operations in SK, both military and civilian in the event NK invades. The amount of destruction would be immense before SK or its allies even had a chance to respond. As far as the troops, both SK and U.N. on the border are concerned; they are in a position akin to that of the NATO troops on the East/West Germany border. An Army friend of mine who was sent to West Germany during the height of the Cold War related how during the orientation the commanding NCO pointed across the border and told the troops the USSR troop and equipment outnumbered them by as much as 2:1 and that if war broke out, NATO troops in the area were basically done for.
As pointed out by Oberon, sophistication does not always equate to superiority. NK missiles do not have to be the most modern or technologically advanced. Seoul is only about 30 miles from the DMZ, roughly the distance from the Civic Center of Los Angeles to Long Beach. The missile just has to get there, no more no less and that NK can do in first strike. What happens after the invasion will probably be the obliteration of Kim and his reign.
China may not like NK and its current government but, I don’t see them getting chummy with the U.N. or the U.S. anytime soon. There is still a lot of ego in the Chinese government and they are very protective of the perception the world has of their place in international relations. There is still a strong sting of havng been second best to the U.S. and the West over the past century. Going in together with the U.N. with the U.N., and by extension the U.S., in the lead would be a bitter pill indeed. China would probably just deal with NK militarily on its own rather than being perceived as submitting to outside influences, much as it did with the slap down it gave Vietnam in the late 70’s. As far as the criminality and proliferation of WMD’s is concerned, after China takes out Kim, it all becomes a moot point.

[Oberon]

Agreed, working with China rather than against it is key here, but the question is, is the US willing to do that? They've had the knowledge for a while, after all, that the Chinese are irritated with Kim and yet they've seemingly failed to exploit it as fully as they should, instead choosing to send US carrier groups into the South China Sea and a frigate to Vietnam, both aimed at pushing at Chinas sphere of influence in South East Asia. I mean, I know there's the whole economic situation going on here, but if a prolonged war on the Korean peninsula breaks out, then China is going to lose as much as America in terms of the economy...more so in fact, so it's in Beijings best interests to work with the US on removing Kim, and they've admitted that a unified Korea under an ROK style leadership is the better and more stable option, and China likes stability, it can't handle instability at this point, so that's a key card to play in any talks with China, a long(er) war vs a short one and a greater Chinese say in the future of the Korean peninsula as opposed to having US and UN troops sitting on its border.

[Oberon]

Good points raised Vienna on China dealing with Kim ala Vietnam rather than agreeing to work with the US and UN, although if the US does some economic backroom deals with China I could see them perhaps being a bit more agreeable to it than before.

However, in terms of a DPRK first strike...well, it's probably in Kims best interest not to...ok, he's not the most level headed of characters, but he's not tried invading in the last 60 years and has usually known just how far he can push it and get away with it.

You see, if the DPRK strikes first, firstly it throws away the victim card which is an important card to hold onto for propaganda on both your own citizens and those of your aggressors nation. After all, since the US lead the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, it would be easy to label it an 'imperialist warmonger' and gain some sympathy in peace protesters in foreign nations, particularly if you show pictures of destroyed 'baby milk factories' ;)
But anyway, let's say that Kim does decide to throw away that card, and heads south. Well, first he's got to get across the most heavily mined and defended border in the world. Not easy. He can go under it, however the amount of troops that can go under the DMZ would be limited by the size and scope of the tunnels, and given that there is some pretty good equipment on the DMZ border for detecting earth tremors, I'd say that there aren't that many tunnels that aren't known by the ROK already, marked and probably ready to be exploded on top of any DPRK troops that mass through it.
He could try going over it, his wooden aircraft would make a low signature on the border radar systems, however again, there's the problem of numbers, most likely the AN-2s...if they can fuel enough of them...would be used for commando raids.
He could try blasting his way through, detonating a nuke under the DMZ would clear any mines and opposing forces out of the way...but then you've got only one clear exit route which would turn into Koreas own 'Hells Highway' through constant air bombardment.
Amphibious assaults around the DMZ are out of the question because the DPRKs surface navy is...lacking in the essential equipment, shall we say.
The last option is to human wave it, throw as many men as you can at it and force your way through with sheer manpower...viable, and likely to succeed but can be done only two ways. On narrow fronts, in which it incurs minimal initial casualties but then has the same problem as the nuke clearing option, or through a wide front in which high casualties are incurred but a greater section of the front smashed open.
In all scenarios, however, there is a massive loss of life on both sides in the opening stages, and that's before the ROK/US response. It is possible and likely that the DPRK can force several breaches in the DMZ, that much I will admit. However, proceeding beyond the DMZ becomes a bit more difficult. Forward units may reach Seoul, however their supply lines will be smashed to pieces by Allied air attacks and I'd estimate that the battle-line will stabilise about ten-twenty miles from Seoul.
Meanwhile inside the ROK, all hell will break loose, DPRK sleeper units will detonate bombs at army bases and airfields and inside Seoul and communications will be shot for about twenty four hours...however, the ROK and US will have been prepared for this and have secondary communications systems in place...if they're not prepared then I'd question what the US taxpayer is spending its money on TBH.
That twenty four hours of confusion will get the DPRK forces towards Seoul with high casualties along the DMZ as Allied units are overrun. However within that twenty-four hours a new defence line will be set up in front of Seoul. That line will hold, or if it doesn't the next one will. Soon the DPRK forces will find themselves low on ammunition and fuel. Small breakthroughs may occur along the defence line but the DPRK will lack the available material to exploit them because of lack of fuel and ammunition.
By this time, US reinforcements will be on the scene. DPRK subs and mini subs will try to hit the carrier fleets but most will be lost in the process, others though will be used primarily as commando landing craft, and will be hit by coastal sub-hunters.

If I had to guess...and this is pure guesswork here...I'd say that the front line will get this far:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3608/dprk.jpg
Somewhere between the red and blue lines I'd say. I imagine Inchon would be a vital secondary target for DPRK forces because of its naval resupply ability for the Allied forces. So they'd probably make a drive south to try and get that.
So, DPRK is halted. The Allied forces are fully ready...the repulse will begin, driving the DPRK back to the DMZ...and then across it...what happens next is debatable...either a repeat of October 1950, or a collapse of the Kim regime and the appearance of a new (most likely military) leader who would sign a ceasefire and peace treaty, or the complete invasion and dismantling of the DPRK and incorporation into the ROK to become one unified Korea. It all depends on China really and the stance they take.
Either which way though, casualties will be high, but as in the last Korean war, they will be higher for the DPRK than for the Allies, and since Kim has thrown away the victim card, and hit first, public sentiment will be less against the war as it is a war of defence...although the deeper the Allies go into the DPRK the greater the call will be for them to have stopped at the DMZ and put things back into the status quo with a new leader in the DPRK. So war weariness will not be as much of a problem as it would have been if the Allies had struck first...and I'd say that Kim knows that, if he didn't know that, then he would have invaded long before now...but he knows, deep down, that he hasn't got a hope in hell of winning. So, he takes it to the edge, threatens everything under the sun, and then plays tennis with UN embargoes and the like, all the time working on the one thing that could possibly level the playing field, a nuke small enough to put on a missile and a missile system that can hit something that isn't the Pacific Ocean.

[Castout]

You guys really write too many sentences now I'll have to hold reading them until later :O:

[TLAM Strike]

Agreed, working with China rather than against it is key here, but the question is, is the US willing to do that? Oh I think we are willing to work with anyone. That is a hallmark of America. Our greatest allies are Brittan and Japan: once two of our greatest enemies. France, Germany, Russia, Italy, Spain, Mexico we have all been at war with them and been allies with them. We armed the Vietcong before we fought them, We armed Iran before we bombed them, same with Iraq. For better or worse we will work with anyone who furthers are interests and our interests include a Korean peninsula where it is safe to play Starcraft without the threat of No-dongs raining down on you.



NK has a standing army of over 1.1 million with a reserve of over 4.7 million and they are all, relatively, in the same place, not spread over vast areas or in armed conflicts like the U.S. and its allies. An assault on SK would literally be the opening of the flood gates supported by armor, artillery, and air support going full-out (or in poker terms, “all-in”). I would not go by numbers. Most of their troops are poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly fed. Look at the Gulf War where there was little ground fighting except for a 7 or 8 engagements (all one sided except for the first). Iraq had half a million troops in the South (all told their force was close to a million split on four fronts). The Coalition force (also a million but only 3/4 "reliable forces", read: NATO forces and a sizable portion of them Naval based) demoralized them and walked over them with less than 400 troops dead.

He could try going over it, his wooden aircraft would make a low signature on the border radar systems, however again, there's the problem of numbers, most likely the AN-2s...if they can fuel enough of them...would be used for commando raids. The stealth of the An-2 has been exaggerated. Its real advantage is its ability to fly at low altitudes, at night it would be suicidal to try (very few PVNGs in North Korea), in the day everyone with stingers would be shooting at you (there have been cases where An-2s were shot down by Hueys armed with automatic rifles). Plus any troops that land would lack heavy weapons and vehicles.


He could try blasting his way through, detonating a nuke under the DMZ would clear any mines and opposing forces out of the way...but then you've got only one clear exit route which would turn into Koreas own 'Hells Highway' through constant air bombardment. Again that's either one 8 mile corridor or 8 1 mile corridors for troops with minimal/poorly made CBRN gear. Not to mention we can re-mine it with FASCAM.

Amphibious assaults around the DMZ are out of the question because the DPRKs surface navy is...lacking in the essential equipment, shall we say. I would not count this out completely for the outlying islands. The DPRK converted a large number of PT boats in to fast LCPs. And they have a large number of submarines used for commando operations. Best defense against those would be coast watchers who can call in arty or a few platoons of marines.

If I had to guess...and this is pure guesswork here...I'd say that the front line will get this far: If I was the South I would try to hold them at the river just south of the DMZ (the Imjin River, the British delaying action there in '51 cost the Chinese 10,000 men) by using mobile mine laying systems and large numbers of USAF B-52 sorties dropping CBU-97s and JADAMs. A few copperhead rounds guided in by a drone could end the North Korea offensive right there if done right, eliminate any attempt a bridging or crossing on barges and any mechanized invasion ends there. Then there is cake...

By this time, US reinforcements will be on the scene. DPRK subs and mini subs will try to hit the carrier fleets but most will be lost in the process, others though will be used primarily as commando landing craft, and will be hit by coastal sub-hunters. US and Allied (read: Japan) naval forces could be on the scene in the Yellow Sea in 24 hours, but our carriers would most likely be operating in the Sea of Japan and in the deep waters south of Korea in the East China Sea aprox. 500 nm from the nearest North Korean naval bases at Haeju and Ongjin.

The large submarines (Romeo, Whiskey, Sang-O) could be a threat to where our Carriers would be operating (but honestly they don't stand a chance of making it that far), their newer Yono class subs would be hard pressed to operate out that far (not to mention the crew exhausted from spending 2 or 3 days aboard something you can't stand up in... then again North Korean are tiny and maybe they can stand up strait in one.)

You guys really write too many sentences now I'll have to hold reading them until later :O: But unlike Skybird we include pictures occasionally with our walls of text.

[the_tyrant]

@TLAM Strike
you are AMAZING!!!!!:salute:

just one question, are you CIA?:D

[Sledgehammer427]

@TLAM Strike
you are AMAZING!!!!!:salute:

just one question, are you CIA?:D

We DO call him our own Jack Ryan....:hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

just one question, are you CIA?:D

:shifty: I can neither confirm nor deny...

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2271/iamgez.th.jpg (http://img836.imageshack.us/i/iamgez.jpg/)
... hay wait how did this picture get here! ;)
Yes that really is my Firefox theme right now! :O:

[the_tyrant]

:shifty: I can neither confirm nor deny...

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2271/iamgez.th.jpg (http://img836.imageshack.us/i/iamgez.jpg/)
... hay wait how did this picture get here! ;)
Yes that really is my Firefox theme right now! :O:

:har::har:

Your stuff is way better than 99% of the S**T from most of the military magazines and websites
Your best posts are as good as the stuff thats on Jane's Defence Journal
:salute:

[Sledgehammer427]

you know, they would prolly get mad at you for using a work computer TLAM :rotfl2:

[Krauter]

:hmmm:...

Based on what I'm reading from Oberon and TLAM.. It all sounds like the next Tom Clancy novel in the making.

[Castout]

But unlike Skybird we include pictures occasionally with our walls of text.

But they are not half naked women still :O:

Ack this thread will spiral out of control before I manage to catch up with the texts.

[TLAM Strike]

Ack this thread will spiral out of control before I manage to catch up with the texts.

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3204/4903.jpg
"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it"

:hmmm:...

Based on what I'm reading from Oberon and TLAM.. It all sounds like the next Tom Clancy novel in the making. I know Oberon has done some writing, I submitted some of mine for the 3rd Subsim almanac (assuming that happens), maybe Obie and me should write the next hit techno thriller! :hmmm:

you know, they would prolly get mad at you for using a work computer TLAM :rotfl2: :yeah:

[the_tyrant]

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3204/4903.jpg


:wah:I can't recognize the movie

[TLAM Strike]

:wah:I can't recognize the movie

Fred Thompson, Daniel Davis, and Alec Baldwin... could only be...

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7015/220pxthehuntforredoctob.jpg

[the_tyrant]

Fred Thompson, Daniel Davis, and Alec Baldwin... could only be...

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7015/220pxthehuntforredoctob.jpg

I've seen that one 4 times!!!!!!:damn::damn::damn::damn::damn::damn::da mn:

yet I still can't recognize it:nope:

[Gerald]

And, Sam Neill

[TLAM Strike]

And, Sam Neill

I was listing the actors in the screen shot I posted. ;) Sam Neill is not there.

[Gerald]

screenshot, right my friend ... I went a little longer in my thoughts, :salute:

[Reece]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QAelWJr5mBA/S-M0KyBEoAI/AAAAAAAAJx8/ilq8nOblpUA/s640/00-44-30-tile.jpg
Arm number one Asroc!!...
Don't worry commodore, the Bedford will never fire first!!
But if he fires one I'll fire one.... 'FIRE ONE!'

[Castout]

US envoy going to PyongYang to calm down North Korea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11997172

[Oberon]

Admiral, Yankee One is on final. Rescue personnel are in place.
Pick up your left wing.
You're drifting left.
Power, power!
Wave off, wave off!
Eject, eject, eject!
Fire, Fire! Fire on the flight deck!


Hey, TLAM, if ever you want to do a duo on a novel, that sounds like a great idea :yeah:

Imjin river looks like a good stopping point but I'm wondering if the initial
surge will have enough strength in it to force a crossing.
Not that the crossing will last, and it will be another weak point to hit supply
lines on, but I don't know, since it's that close to the DMZ, whether the DPRK
troops will have enough momentum by the time they reach it. It
depends on the alert level I guess.

By the way...I saw the trailer for Homefront today, and they said that the
storyline for World In Conflict was stretching it! :haha:

(sorry about the bizarre paragraphing...the copied text from HFRO broke it ;))

[Raptor1]

Hey, don't leave me out of the wild guessing! :O:


But anyway, let's say that Kim does decide to throw away that card, and heads south. Well, first he's got to get across the most heavily mined and defended border in the world. Not easy. He can go under it, however the amount of troops that can go under the DMZ would be limited by the size and scope of the tunnels, and given that there is some pretty good equipment on the DMZ border for detecting earth tremors, I'd say that there aren't that many tunnels that aren't known by the ROK already, marked and probably ready to be exploded on top of any DPRK troops that mass through it.

I think the only possible use of tunnels is to either detonate large (Possibly nuclear, if they manage to assemble one of their nukes there without being detected) mines under the minefields or the insertion of special forces and raiding parties.


He could try blasting his way through, detonating a nuke under the DMZ would clear any mines and opposing forces out of the way...but then you've got only one clear exit route which would turn into Koreas own 'Hells Highway' through constant air bombardment.

You could theoretically safely move mechanized infantry through a gap detonated through the DMZ with nukes, but the supplies to that force will most likely not be able to get through. So the offensive will die out very quickly even without air interdiction.

Only if they could somehow get rid of the minefield on a broad front without the risk fallout and radiation poses to their forces, they might have some kind of chance.

Amphibious assaults around the DMZ are out of the question because the DPRKs surface navy is...lacking in the essential equipment, shall we say.
The last option is to human wave it, throw as many men as you can at it and force your way through with sheer manpower...viable, and likely to succeed but can be done only two ways. On narrow fronts, in which it incurs minimal initial casualties but then has the same problem as the nuke clearing option, or through a wide front in which high casualties are incurred but a greater section of the front smashed open.

I doubt human waves are a viable option for the DPRK. Their strength is in numbers, and they would throw that advantage away by wasting their troops like that. It would also demoralize their (Probably already demoralized) troops and reduce their fighting efficiency a lot very quickly.

In all scenarios, however, there is a massive loss of life on both sides in the opening stages, and that's before the ROK/US response. It is possible and likely that the DPRK can force several breaches in the DMZ, that much I will admit. However, proceeding beyond the DMZ becomes a bit more difficult. Forward units may reach Seoul, however their supply lines will be smashed to pieces by Allied air attacks and I'd estimate that the battle-line will stabilise about ten-twenty miles from Seoul.
Meanwhile inside the ROK, all hell will break loose, DPRK sleeper units will detonate bombs at army bases and airfields and inside Seoul and communications will be shot for about twenty four hours...however, the ROK and US will have been prepared for this and have secondary communications systems in place...if they're not prepared then I'd question what the US taxpayer is spending its money on TBH.
That twenty four hours of confusion will get the DPRK forces towards Seoul with high casualties along the DMZ as Allied units are overrun. However within that twenty-four hours a new defence line will be set up in front of Seoul. That line will hold, or if it doesn't the next one will. Soon the DPRK forces will find themselves low on ammunition and fuel. Small breakthroughs may occur along the defence line but the DPRK will lack the available material to exploit them because of lack of fuel and ammunition.
By this time, US reinforcements will be on the scene. DPRK subs and mini subs will try to hit the carrier fleets but most will be lost in the process, others though will be used primarily as commando landing craft, and will be hit by coastal sub-hunters.

If I had to guess...and this is pure guesswork here...I'd say that the front line will get this far:

---

Somewhere between the red and blue lines I'd say. I imagine Inchon would be a vital secondary target for DPRK forces because of its naval resupply ability for the Allied forces. So they'd probably make a drive south to try and get that.

I still hold that a direct assault on Seoul would not only be the most stupid move the DPRK could make, it would also be the most unlikely because of it and what is known about their operational doctrine. While Seoul is not a militarily worthless target, attacking it directly would be suicide. Not only does the terrain between Seoul and the DMZ include some pretty good defensive positions, it is also probably the location of most of the ROK/US reserve units. The heavy urban terrain of the city and surrounding regions would also be extremely hard to attack, drawing away resources that would be much more effective elsewhere.

If I were to guess the main axis of a North Korean attack on South Korea, it would go something like this:

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/1699/seould.png

(Sorry about the map, it was the best thing I could think of)

The envelopment of Seoul makes much more sense and will have a much greater (Though still very small) chance of succeeding. With naval supply, Seoul could still hold for a very long time, but it will be significantly less important if the North Koreans manage to occupy the rest of the country.

I think the most likely outcomes would be either the stopping of the North Korean attack on the DMZ if they attempt to attack on a broad front or slightly south of the DMZ if they manage to break through on a narrow front, specifically once their supply runs out. Failing that, the best bet would be stopping their operational maneuver units from getting through the front. If the ROK/US manage to fail stopping the DPRK from breaching the front and exploiting the gap, something which I consider extremely unlikely, then I think the DPRK might have some chances of achieving victory or at least advancing pretty far into South Korea.

[TLAM Strike]

If I were to guess the main axis of a North Korean attack on South Korea, it would go something like this:

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/1699/seould.png

(Sorry about the map, it was the best thing I could think of) Looks like the area around Pochon and Cherowan would be a killing zone. There are several highway nexus that would be within range of artillery placed on those mountains and hills to the east and you have the North breaking though a highway that runs though a valley north of Route #60, bad idea since if focus the DPRK forces in to a confined area were air strikes and arty could be concentrated. South of that valley is another river were ROK/US troops could make a stand and inflict severe casualties. To accomplish that you are betting that the DPRK's engineers can make and hold 3 river crossings which I see as very unlikely in the event of US/ROK air superiority.

The area where the Imjin river enters the yellow sea north of Inchon would be a great assault point, since troops landing there have flat ground leading right in to Inchon and southern Seoul. Maybe even use the Han river to their advantage and ferry troops and supplies down it using that huge force of coastal and river fishing boats they have.

[Raptor1]

Looks like the area around Pochon and Cherowan would be a killing zone. There are several highway nexus that would be within range of artillery placed on those mountains and hills to the east and you have the North breaking though a highway that runs though a valley north of Route #60, bad idea since if focus the DPRK forces in to a confined area were air strikes and arty could be concentrated. South of that valley is another river were ROK/US troops could make a stand and inflict severe casualties. To accomplish that you are betting that the DPRK's engineers can make and hold 3 river crossings which I see as very unlikely in the event of US/ROK air superiority.

The area where the Imjin river enters the yellow sea north of Inchon would be a great assault point, since troops landing there have flat ground leading right in to Inchon and southern Seoul. Maybe even use the Han river to their advantage and ferry troops and supplies down it using that huge force of coastal and river fishing boats they have.

I'm not saying they could accomplish anything, I'm saying it's about the most logical way I can see they could actually get anywhere with an attack in the west of the country.

Sure, it might be easier to attack in the terrain north of Seoul and Incheon (Though still not very easy), but such attacks will be facing much deeper opposition. The main point is that even if any attack focusing on the area directly north of Seoul achieves short-term success, it will be impossible to follow up on it without directly assaulting the urban areas around Seoul, which would be very nasty for the attacking forces.

EDIT: Also, I wasn't saying that North Korean troops would follow the arrows exactly as they are.

[Oberon]

:hmmm: That approach does make more sense than a Banzai charge on Seoul, but I still maintain that the limit of the advance will be short of Seoul, or even past Seoul, or much further than Chuncheon at the most, before the supply lines are cut and the advance bogs down.
The idea of detonating a nuke to clear the DMZ is pure supposition, and would indeed cause problems with irradiating the supply lines...however, this is a country that bases its value of human life at about the same level that Joseph Stalin once did...so quite frankly I could see DPRK soldiers being forced to drive through irradiated ground, just to get supplies to the front. They'd probably wash the trucks on the other side at a small FOB type area, but the drivers would have their lives cut in half, but what does it matter? There are plenty more where that came from!
Mines are an old concept that I admit I had discarded, although one would need a large amount of high explosives to detonate an area large enough to cover the DMZ...but I guess it's entirely possible.

[Krauter]

Can't we just bomb them back into the stone age already?

I'M TIRED OF WAITING!

.. Anyways, on an even less serious note, I predict that DPRK Units will cross at most 10km across the DMZ, and then be pushed back to Pyongyang :)

OR,

since I want to make up my own fiction, I suppose one of their military generals, after having his theatre commander shot for incompetence will pull a coup d'etat and the war will end (a la Red Strom Rising). The end. :salute:


Cheers

Krauter

[TLAM Strike]

...since I want to make up my own fiction, I suppose one of their military generals, after having his theatre commander shot for incompetence will pull a coup d'etat and the war will end (a la Red Strom Rising). The end. :salute:


Cheers

Krauter

Ever read Red Phoenix by Larry Bond?

[Oberon]

Ever read Red Phoenix by Larry Bond?

:yep:

Good novel. :rock:

[Jimbuna]

Ever read Red Phoenix by Larry Bond?

Yes....good read but also enjoyed Red Storm Rising.

[TLAM Strike]

Yes....good read but also enjoyed Red Storm Rising.

Larry Bond wrote or consulted on a lot of Red Storm Rising. But after that him and Clancy had a falling out.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QAelWJr5mBA/S-M0KyBEoAI/AAAAAAAAJx8/ilq8nOblpUA/s640/00-44-30-tile.jpg
Arm number one Asroc!!...
Don't worry commodore, the Bedford will never fire first!!
But if he fires one I'll fire one.... 'FIRE ONE!'

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/480/sonarq.jpg
Kaptain we've been fired on! Enemy torpedo at 6,000 meters!
Dive the submarine! Keep 50 meters, both engines full ahead together!

[Reece]

:har: If you're gonna die you may as well go out in style!!:yep:

[TLAM Strike]

A little birdie dropped this in my email today. Some bloggers reported that ROK counterbattery fire against the DPRK's guns was ineffective during that attack, well here is the proof.
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/856/chiyonglposcounterfires.jpg
This photo shows the recent shell craters at Chi Yong. The 'U' shaped things are revetments for the guns. The birdie believes that the shell craters are so shallow because the ROKMC was using air burst shells.

More images showing the entire gun positions in the area tomorrow since I'm to tired to do even a cut and paste job of them right now.

[the_tyrant]

A little birdie dropped this in my email today. Some bloggers reported that ROK counterbattery fire against the DPRK's guns was ineffective during that attack, well here is the proof.
This photo shows the recent shell craters at Chi Yong. The 'U' shaped things are revetments for the guns. The birdie believes that the shell craters are so shallow because the ROKMC was using air burst shells.

More images showing the entire gun positions in the area tomorrow since I'm to tired to do even a cut and paste job of them right now.

Don't you know that its a South Korean tactic to engage in strategic artillery strikes? By attacking the north's farmlands, it is to deny the enemy of vital food resources!:DL

[Gerald]

SEOUL, South Korea – South Korea said Thursday it will conduct artillery drills similar to ones that prompted North Korea to shell a front-line island last month — a move that risks further confrontation even as an American governor arrived in Pyongyang in a diplomatic effort to cool tensions.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/12/16/skorea-stage-firing-drills-border-island/?test=latestnews


Note: Published December 16, 2010

[TLAM Strike]

Ok here is a fuller overview of the site the shelling was believed to have come from. (Note: I didn't write this up or find it, the person who did chooses to remain anonymous).

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/6793/chiyongahowitzers.jpg

37°47'13.88"N, 125°35'58.61"E - 6 x self-propelled howitzers plus command jeep to rear. Most likely M-1992 120mm guns.
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/1258/chiyongbhowizerfallback.jpg

the above howitzers fall-back position is at 37°47'23.56"N, 125°35'59.58"Ehttp://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8308/chiyongdharts.jpg

HARTS (hardened Artillery Position) at 37°48'10.55"N, 125°36'11.72"E. Again probably D-20 152mm http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5760/chiyongeartbase.jpg

artillery base with two separate gun lines for towed artillery - probably D-30 122mm 37°48'7.89"N, 125°35'50.16"Ehttp://img696.imageshack.us/img696/7578/chiyongftunnels.jpg

major bunker complex for storing vehicles - probably artillery related http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/5506/chiyongghowitzers.jpg

4 self-propelled howitzers or MLRS hiding near village, with firing positions in field clearly visible. 37°46'37.13"N, 125°35'59.91"Ehttp://img18.imageshack.us/img18/856/chiyonglposcounterfires.jpg

another firing position for self-propelled guns. But look at the black scars in the field behind it!!!! Looks like ROK fired back on this position. The reason that the scars aren't deep would be because they are air-burst. 37°47'14.11"N, 125°35'26.27"E - the vehicles probably escaped though, and are the ones in (k) above I'd bet!

[Oberon]

Thought that last pic looked familiar:

http://bemil.chosun.com/nbrd/data/10044/upfile/201012/thumb2/20101202031205.jpg

Found this on MP.net with the caption:

Some explanation. Yellow arrows point to craters made by 155mm shells from ROKMC's K9 SPH. Some craters are however not marked by yellow arrow even though it's obvious. The long yellow line in the middle of image is where NK's 122mm rocket launchers were located at to fire the rockets. I can make out 6 positions. Remember that NK used 76mm, 122mm rockets, and 152mm against the SK island.

The ground behind the road is divided into rice paddies, hence the puzzle like lines crisscrossing it.

Some background on the action by the ROKMC on the shelled South Korean island.
There were 6 K9 SPH (ROKMC's) on the island and 4 (?) had just completed firing exercise, firing into the ocean to the west away from NK, when NK suddenly shelled the SK island. 2 K9 were on guard against NK. Of the 6 only 3 K9 were able to return fire. The other 3 were unable to do so due to a jam (?) suffered during earlier training, collateral damage from initial shelling by NK etc.

Also it was reported that ROKMC on the island normally keeps only 1 live shell in each K9 for safety reasons. So when the ROKMC had to execute the counter-battery fire, the ROKMC marines had to 'carry' all of the shells (ROKMC expended 80 shells) from ammo storage bunker to the 3 K9.

Since the shelling SK govt has doubled # of K9 on the island and moved in K10 (automated ammo carrier/supplier) to support K9. SK is also seeking to purchase M982 Excalibur shells and Israel's Spike NLOS missiles.

I think the pics were originally released from an Israeli satellite. Probably the one that Taiwan borrows to snoop on China from time to time.

[vienna]

Quote:

Also it was reported that ROKMC on the island normally keeps only 1 live shell in each K9 for safety reasons.

I had to laugh when I read this; it reminded me of the character "Deputy Barney Fife" on the old early 60's American television "Andy Griffith Show". The deputy carried a sidearm, but it was unloaded and he carried a single bullet in his shirt pocket. Any time he had to use his gun, he had to fish around in his pocket for the bullet and then would fumble around trying to load the round into his revolver.

[TLAM Strike]

Quote:

Also it was reported that ROKMC on the island normally keeps only 1 live shell in each K9 for safety reasons.

I had to laugh when I read this; it reminded me of the character "Deputy Barney Fife" on the old early 60's American television "Andy Griffith Show". The deputy carried a sidearm, but it was unloaded and he carried a single bullet in his shirt pocket. Any time he had to use his gun, he had to fish around in his pocket for the bullet and then would fumble around trying to load the round into his revolver.

This is why they don't carry a full load of ordnance at all times. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePB82pVaPOs)

[Castout]

You can roast some pork real fast that way

[Krauter]

Ever read Red Phoenix by Larry Bond?

Amazing novel :up:

[Oberon]

This is why they don't carry a full load of ordnance at all times. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePB82pVaPOs)

Brewski. :yep:

[Jimbuna]

A bit reminiscent of the Sherman in WWII :o

[vienna]

Oh, I fully understood why they don't keep the munitions near the artillery; I was just struck by the similarity to Deputy Fife: fire one round, look around, and ask "Anyone got another?"

[Oberon]

A bit reminiscent of the Sherman in WWII :o

:yep: Tommy Cooker


Calliope is bloody effective though...but that's a later model IIRC.

[Gerald]

Pyongyang, North Korea (CNN) -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson said Saturday he is concerned about escalating tensions on the Korean peninsula, where he is urging "maximum" restraint ahead of scheduled military exercises."This is a tinderbox," he told CNN's Wolf Blitzer, who is traveling with the governor in North Korea. "Right now, my objective is to say tamp things down."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/12/17/north.korea.richardson/index.html?hpt=T1




Note: December 18, 2010 Updated 0129 GMT (0929 HKT) Those of you who are afraid to "cut and paste", do not read this, because that is exactly what it is!

[Castout]

How's the snow in Korea? We need to switch away from discussing North Korea . . . . .I'm tired of the media rhetoric and the possibility of South to cancel their live fire exercise to accommodate North Korea.

Sometimes giving less is more.
Peace must be sought but war needs to be prepared.
So please don't tell me more.

I'm not on either side but I can tell the North started the provocation with the Cheonan and now the island shelling.

[Gerald]

http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Seoul+South+Korea+KSXX0037?from=search_city

[Gerald]

How's the snow in Korea? We need to switch away from discussing North Korea . . . . .I'm tired of the media rhetoric and the possibility of South to cancel their live fire exercise to accommodate North Korea.

Sometimes giving less is more.
Peace must be sought but war needs to be prepared.
So please don't tell me more.

I'm not on either side but I can tell the North started the provocation with the Cheonan and now the island shelling. We can always go into your thread, "Ok let's see women That you think are beautiful" instead,I'll post some goodies :O:

[Castout]

We can always go into your thread, "Ok let's see women That you think are beautiful" instead,I'll post some goodies :O:

You're right but I'm running out of beautiful women :haha:

[Gerald]

My friend, the world's women are waiting for you, :DL

[Castout]

My friend, the world's women are waiting for you, :DL

I'm not seeing any line :haha:

[STEED]

NK dropped its rattle out the pram again and now wet it's nappy, bunch of pricks NK is.

[Gerald]

Pyongyang, North Korea (CNN) - At Russia's urging, the U.N. Security Council will hold an emergency meeting Sunday morning aimed at defusing simmering tensions in the Korean peninsula.The meeting will take place at 11 a.m. ET on Sunday, a day after Russia had originally wanted to meet, its ambassador to the United Nations Vitaly Churkin said in a statement. Churkin blamed the U.S. delegation -- which this month heads up the security council -- for the one-day delay, adding, "We assume that nothing will happen in the interim that would bring about further aggravation."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/12/18/north.korea.richardson/index.html?hpt=T1



Note: Update record, December 19, 2010 Updated 0429 GMT (1229 HKT)

[Jimbuna]

NK dropped its rattle out the pram again and now wet it's nappy, bunch of pricks NK is.

If the South Koreans cancel these military exercises it mean a total loss of credibility and they might as well open up the DMZ and invite the eedjits on the northern side to cross over and rule the south :nope:

[Platapus]

If the South Koreans cancel these military exercises it mean a total loss of credibility .....

It is that attitude that will escalate into a war. :nope:

Pride should never be a casus belli, but often is.

[Molon Labe]

Well, if this thing is going to kick off, it's probably going to kick off in a matter of hours. The drills will be today (Monday in Korea). The clouds have moved out and the fog is lifting. The only question is whether the Norks make good on their threats.

[Oberon]

That's the three million dollar (or shell) question. Time will tell, I would say that they would be stupid to do so...but this is Pyongyang... :nope:

[Molon Labe]

Sources said the drills are likely to be held between 11 a.m. and noon.--Yonhap

1 hr, 15 minutes to 11am in Korea.

[Gerald]

(CNN) -- South Korea's planned live-fire military exercises in the Yellow Sea will begin Monday despite threats from North Korea that the drills will result in "disaster," the South Korean military announced.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/12/19/north.korea.tensions/index.html?hpt=T1




Note: Update record, December 20, 2010 Updated 0018 GMT

[Oberon]

Gah, they could have least have started it when I was going to be awake.

Well, I'll put this in the thread, if the North starts something it can hold them off until the US arrives, if not, then it could probably advance and take Pyongyang itself.

http://www.greenflash.org.uk/assets/jpegs/general/Tanks%20advance.jpg

(Just make sure there are no ditches in the way....)

[FIREWALL]

After struggling thru most of the posts I see most if not all have a clue what N. Korea is up to.

They know USA backs S. Korea and is trying to goad us into a shootout.

Then cry to China that we're the bullys and cry for help.

It ain't rocket science.

[krashkart]

Gah, they could have least have started it when I was going to be awake.

Well, I'll put this in the thread, if the North starts something it can hold them off until the US arrives, if not, then it could probably advance and take Pyongyang itself.

http://www.greenflash.org.uk/assets/jpegs/general/Tanks%20advance.jpg

(Just make sure there are no ditches in the way....)


If you need a tow just give us a holler. Round-the-clock service and free of charge. :DL

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=179&pictureid=3432

[Molon Labe]

Update: The firing will begin after 1 p.m. and last less than two hours, defense ministry spokesman Kim Min-seok said, adding that the exercise has not started yet because of fog in the area.--Yonhap

Current time is 1210 hrs.

[TLAM Strike]

I wonder if there is still time for some of our members on the west coast to get some welding goggles and sit out on the beach facing west to enjoy the show. :03:

[FIREWALL]

We sorta have a news blackout here. I think that crazy fook has shot his wad and China told him to chill. :haha:

[Molon Labe]

S. Korean military begins live-fire artillery drill near N. Korea
SEOUL, Dec. 20 (Yonhap) -- South Korea on Monday fired artillery into waters near the western sea border with North Korea, pushing ahead with a high-tension exercise amid Pyongyang's threat to strike back if the drill goes ahead, an official said.


The drill began at around 2:30 p.m., an official at the South's Joint Chiefs of Staff said.

"It won't last long," he said on condition of anonymity.\

FNC also reporting artillery heard firing.

[Castout]

what does it mean it won't last long. Fire all the way to tomorrow!:arrgh!:

The world is ready for another war....well maybe not the US nor China but here hoping for one :woot:. Mr Kim make sure to launch one of those missile into Singapore palace! Better yet ALL! At least your regime is bold enough to challenge another nation unlike the strutting little arrogant big mouthed Harry Lee's Singapore. The ubiquitous gangster of South East Asia. Heil Harry!

Now that's some drunk comment fascinatingly I'm perfectly sober. Harry lee and his son needs a little pop, they are so full of themselves.

[Gerald]

http://i.imgur.com/xqjaR.jpg

[Castout]

http://i.imgur.com/xqjaR.jpg

:DL Yeah just last Tuesday I was approached by this pastor who insisted I was the one who was wrong and that I was leading an imbalance life with regard with my view of life and told me repeated implicit death threats and told me a stupid allegory which wasn't his own. Now I'm a nobody so who's threatening whom and just exactly who is the man leading an imbalance life :doh: Ssssh.

But then again thanks for the picture but better not hijack this thread. Sorry for the previous post I just had to vent somewhere :)

[Gerald]

No hijack, but your feelings come out, do not despair, :yep:

[Gerald]

South Korean officials said the artillery exercise would last about two hours. The start of the firing was delayed by foggy weather.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/dprk/2010/dprk-101220-voa01.htm



Note: VOA News 20 December 2010

[Oberon]

North blinks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12039477

[Gerald]

China has forced NK to take no action, as NK does not really have any choice, and moreover, nobody wants a war in the region

[Molon Labe]

I love the way the Norks are spinning this now:


Hours later its military supreme command said it "did not feel any need to retaliate against every despicable military provocation".

"The world should properly know who is the true champion of peace and who is the real provocateur of a war," it said in a statement on the official news agency KCNA, blasting the "puppet warmongers" in Seoul.

Yes. You murder 46 people on the Cheonan and add four more by shelling an inhabited island, but you are the champions of peace here because at least you didn't fire some rounds into the water in a routine drill. ^&*$ you.

[Krauter]

I wonder how this is going to affect Kim Jong-Un's transition to power :hmmm:..

After their military leaders see he can't follow through on threats?

[the_tyrant]

I wonder how this is going to affect Kim Jong-Un's transition to power :hmmm:..

After their military leaders see he can't follow through on threats?

I don't think that all north Koreans are stereotypical commie hardliners.

After all, the south are ready for them this time

[Jimbuna]

If this matter wasn't so potentially serious you could almost laugh :hmmm:

[Krauter]

What I meant was, this event isnt going to help Jong-Uns picture with the Militaristic Hardliners. Who cares what the general population of North Korea thinks. As far as their politicians are aware, they're just labor to be used at ones own discretion.

[TLAM Strike]

What I meant was, this event isnt going to help Jong-Uns picture with the Militaristic Hardliners. Who cares what the general population of North Korea thinks. As far as their politicians are aware, they're just labor to be used at ones own discretion.

Well the Brilliant Comrade did order the execution of three KPA conscripts who left behind a wounded officer during the ROKMC's counter attack last month so standing down today may just even it out for him.

[Jimbuna]

Well the Brilliant Comrade did order the execution of three KPA conscripts who left behind a wounded officer during the ROKMC's counter attack last month so standing down today may just even it out for him.

Somehow I doubt it.....he's way past redemption already.

[Castout]

The threat of war is still far from over imo. Next year and even the year after that will be precarious.

[Castout]

No hijack, but your feelings come out, do not despair, :yep:

Hey thanks that's soothing :DL

[Gerald]

Hey thanks that's soothing :DL You are always welcome, :up:

[TLAM Strike]

The threat of war is still far from over imo. Next year and even the year after that will be precarious.

I think the longer the ROK can stave off war the weaker overall the DPRK will become, but the deadlier its weapons will become.

A Catch 22...

[Castout]

I think the longer the ROK can stave off war the weaker overall the DPRK will become, but the deadlier its weapons will become.

A Catch 22...


All this boils down whether US and her allies would accept a nuclear North Korea and they must be mad if they would since North Korea would act as the flood gate to arming other less responsible countries.

But damn if they don't and risk a war in the Korea peninsula.

Arming South Korea and Japan with nuclear weapon is definitely not a solution but could be made as bargain to China hesitancy to act tough to North Korea to stop its nuclear ambition but failing which it would make the pacific the hottest spot and the likeliest region to see war erupting in the next 10-20 years even a nuclear one.

Speaking of which I definitely want to play the cold war board game Twilight Struggle after writing and reading these stuffs

[TLAM Strike]

All this boils down whether US and her allies would accept a nuclear North Korea and they must be mad if they would since North Korea would act as the flood gate to arming other less responsible countries. It already has, Iran, Pakistan and others have their nuclear programs thanks to North Korea.


Arming South Korea and Japan with nuclear weapon is definitely not a solution but could be made as bargain to China hesitancy to act tough to North Korea to stop its nuclear ambition but failing which it would make the pacific the hottest spot and the likeliest region to see war erupting in the next 10-20 years even a nuclear one.
China might not have much of a choice. Just about any US Navy warship can carry nuclear weapons either with its on board missiles, or aircraft based bombs or depth charges (for the Helis). The US Navy never confirms what ships have them, but if we let everyone know we are bringing back tactical nukes all we have to do is park a destroyer in the Sea of Japan and the threat exists.

[Castout]

I thought Pakistan is way ahead of North Korea in terms of nuclear arms.

Myanmar is trying the waters thanks to North Korea.

[Gerald]

http://i.imgur.com/DkW7N.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7lmQz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OyBdB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/C3J9J.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/XyGZi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZrwPf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pAa3S.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/9NHtm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4SM5M.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/P3NGb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/EGeQf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/d3HCz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qhPIC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/tLiyY.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

I thought Pakistan is way ahead of North Korea in terms of nuclear arms.

Myanmar is trying the waters thanks to North Korea. Yea you are right, Pakistan got lots of help from China.

North Korea got its help from Pakistan.

Its late and I'm confusing who got what from whom...

[Castout]

Yea you are right, Pakistan got lots of help from China.

North Korea got its help from Pakistan.

Its late and I'm confusing who got what from whom...

:D Yeah Pakistan went nuclear because India went too. The two countries are still trying to decide who has bigger balls :haha:......they are natural rival much like the Greece and Turkey.

[Gerald]

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- South Korea will hold its largest-ever winter live-fire drills Thursday in an area adjacent to North Korea, the South Korean Army said on Wednesday.
The drills are scheduled as tensions between the two countries remain high.South Korea held live-fire military exercises earlier this week, a move that North Korea said could ignite a war.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/12/21/south.korea.drills/index.html?hpt=T2



Note: December 22, 2010 Updated 0412 GMT

[Gerald]

Now it seems the news agencies have flesh on their bones, for much of Christmas, :o

[Oberon]

Well, they're pushing it, but the North has had it coming for a long time.

[TLAM Strike]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12056875

The ROK is starting another exercise. Two infact, one on land and an ASWEX at sea.


Picture from previous exercises,
http://i.imgur.com/OyPFl.jpg


The Dutch were involved in that recent exercise in the Yellow Sea? :-?

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12056875

The ROK is starting another exercise. Two infact, one on land and an ASWEX at sea.



The Dutch were involved in that recent exercise in the Yellow Sea? :-? No, just a picture that came with, in terms of the Aegis destroyer as S. Korea have,sorry mate :oops:

[TLAM Strike]

No, just a picture that came with, in terms of the Aegis destroyer as S. Korea have,sorry mate :oops: South Korea's Aegis destroyers are far better armed than the new Dutch Destroyers/Frigates. The KDXIII ships carry more SM-2s, have ASROCs, RAM, double the ASMs, an extra Heli, and are being armed with land attack missiles. Plus their PARs are about 3x the size. ;)

[Gerald]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12056875

The ROK is starting another exercise. Two infact, one on land and an ASWEX at sea.



I feel like a failure aimed shot, can step up the pace some :hmm2:

[Jimbuna]

Well, they're pushing it, but the North has had it coming for a long time.

Too bloody true :yep::DL

[Ducimus]

Call me evil if you want, but I hope they do it. In my opinion, it's high time the Korea (if you'll pardon the expression), either: Schit, or get off the pot. This... all of this.. has gone on for far too long. I wish they'd end it. One way, or the other, but either way, end it.

As an aside, i still fondly remember those people saying, "GI go home!" , "No GI here!, you go!", and other assorted unwanted gestures. Sure... fine. Meanwhile, ill be over here at home, watching from comfort. The same comfort I gave up being stationed there to help defend that stinking spit of land called Korea. Yup, ill be sitting here with a big bowl of popcorn, waiting.. hoping.. for the bombs to fall. If im bitter, its because you people made me so.


Ahhhh.. saying that is so therapeutic! :rotfl2:

[Platapus]

Ducimus,

Having been stationed in Korea, I can't say I would disagree with what you posted at the end of your post. :yep:

The first part, I am not so sure of. But I can understand your attitude. :yep:

[Gerald]

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- Military exercises by the South Korean army, billed as the largest land and air winter drills, ended Thursday, defense officials said The long-planned drills were held just 15 miles from South Korea's longtime adversary North Korea.More than 800 military personnel were scheduled to take part in the exercise in Pocheon, a media officer from the South Korean army said. It will include six fighter jets, anti-tank missiles, and involve more than 100 types of weapons.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/12/23/south.korea.drills/index.html?hpt=T1



Note: Update record, December 23, 2010 Updated 0843 GMT

[Castout]

"Response will come but will come when no one is expecting it"Sounds about right about North Korea.

Why can't NK leaders just initiate a reform especially an economic reform it's better late than playing brinkmanship.

[Oberon]

DPRK 'ready for holy war'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12067735

North Korea's armed forces minister has said his country is ready for a "holy war" using the nuclear deterrent.
Kim Yong-chun said live-fire exercises conducted by South Korea near the border were a preparation for war with the North.


:hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

DPRK 'ready for holy war'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12067735



:hmmm:


I wonder what nukes they have to conduct this 'holy war'? :hmmm:

None I suspect/hope :DL

[Oberon]

I wonder what nukes they have to conduct this 'holy war'? :hmmm:

None I suspect/hope :DL

Oh, they have them, but they're about the size of a bungalow and as reliable as a badly maintained early King Tiger.

[krashkart]

"Holy war"??? :doh:

I loathe catch phrases. :shifty:

[Reece]

"Holy war"??? :doh:

I loathe catch phrases. :shifty:Yeh, meaning of Holy war:
Holy Moly, it's war!!:88)

[krashkart]

Yeh, meaning of Holy war:
Holy Moly, it's war!!:88)

:haha:

It'll be "holey" alright. :-?

This world needs a Holy Mackerel war! :rock:

[Reece]

:haha:

It'll be "holey" alright. :-?

This world needs a Holy Mackerel war! :rock:Maybe they expect the Pope to bless the war!?:hmmm:

[Gerald]

Maybe they expect the Pope to bless the war!?:hmmm: How will this be done? Should it be distributed more condoms to the two countries, so that the pope can say he has done this....:D

[Jimbuna]

Oh, they have them, but they're about the size of a bungalow and as reliable as a badly maintained early King Tiger.

One can only imagine the scene :DL

[STEED]

DPRK 'ready for holy war'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12067735



:hmmm:

Holy war from a hard line Communist country, what a load of bol***ks. :haha:

[Oberon]

Holy war from a hard line Communist country, what a load of bol***ks. :haha:

:hmmm: Worked for Stalin and that's who Kim seniors role model was. :yep:

[Gerald]

http://i.imgur.com/gC0Lu.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

http://i.imgur.com/gC0Lu.jpg

Looks like the CSG has transited to the Sea of Japan. Good, they should have some nice acoustic conditions to keep NK subs away. :ping:

[Gerald]

Looks like the CSG has transited to the Sea of Japan. Good, they should have some nice acoustic conditions to keep NK subs away. :ping: They are well, pretty good equipment for this, :hmmm:

[Gerald]

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak has told his nation it must unite in the face of military aggression from the North.Mr Lee said in a national radio address that what was at stake was "the survival of this nation".He added: "If [we] are afraid of war, we can never prevent war."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12081666



Note: 27 December 2010 Last updated at 00:22 GMT

[Castout]

He added: "If [we] are afraid of war, we can never prevent war."



Actually he can prevent war by being afraid of war. It just canceled the need of military invasion and get right into submission and occupation :D.

You can learn a lot from the quoted words actually. . . . . .those words imply clearly that the South thinks that it has has the capability to wage war(obviously but those words put it into a much clearer insight) but that it wants to prevent war and that while it tried to prevent one before by being soft that attitude is now changing to put a stronger face on North Korea possible future provocation. Still the South doesn't want war. That much is obvious by the statement. And when the North gets the hint and they will try to play this again . . . . gambling on the South hesitancy to escalate the region into war. . . . . .and the South could be forced to put its words to good effect and thus bringing the possibility of widening the crisis further.

How and to what degree the South will react in the future to North Korea future provocation depends much on the future meeting between the South Korean and Chinese delegation I guess. South cannot risk an all out war without some kind of political deal and understanding between it and China.

The South cannot afford to show weakness to its North counterpart imo. Regime like North Korea despises weakness and will only respect strength. I mean that is clearly written all over by what they have been doing to the South i.e trying to gain respect(read:fear) by show of force(strength). Mutual respect is what is needed in the peninsula. A mad dangerous man will only consider an equally mad dangerous man before doing anything. In summary mutual fear works...simply because it's a primal feeling to mankind and like it or not most mankind are still relatively primitive in nature, never sophisticated or only cosmetically sophisticated and most do not hold high aspirations.

Of course it's just my 2 cents worth.

[Gerald]

http://i.imgur.com/MbvuC.jpg


Note: AP PHOTO/AHN YOUNG-Joon

[Gerald]

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/12/27/lah.south.korea.war.words.cnn

[TLAM Strike]

Apparently North Korea is trying to develop nuclear torpedoes to attack our carriers.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=244641

At their current level of sophistication it would require them to swap out the entire bow of one of their submarines and install a single massive torpedo tube like was planned on the early November class SSNs. Assuming they are not going kamikaze with the bomb.

[Gerald]

Apparently North Korea is trying to develop nuclear torpedoes to attack our carriers.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=244641

At their current level of sophistication it would require them to swap out the entire bow of one of their submarines and install a single massive torpedo tube like was planned on the early November class SSNs. Assuming they are not going kamikaze with the bomb.

But countermeasures are well available, :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

But countermeasures are well available, :hmmm:

Oh yea a torpedo the size required to fit one of these monsters most likely could be engaged by a LWT. We are talking a torpedo the size of the US Mark VIII SDV. Also its range or speed would be pitiful unless they built a weapon the size of a Ghadir class sub.

EDIT: This is the scale of weapon we are talking about here:
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8789/novemberp.th.jpg (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/novemberp.jpg/)

Unless Pakistan or someone funnels some research back to the DPRK. Pakistan has tactical warheads that can fit on a tube launched LACM.

[Gerald]

Oh yea a torpedo the size required to fit one of these monsters most likely could be engaged by a LWT. We are talking a torpedo the size of the US Mark VIII SDV. Also its range or speed would be pitiful unless they built a weapon the size of a Ghadir class sub.

EDIT: This is the scale of weapon we are talking about here:
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8789/novemberp.th.jpg (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/novemberp.jpg/)

Unless Pakistan or someone funnels some research back to the DPRK. Pakistan has tactical warheads that can fit on a tube launched LACM. They looking very smooth..

[Oberon]

TLAM Strike that is an awesome book. Then again, what do you expect from Norman Polmar. :rock:

[Jimbuna]

Oh yea a torpedo the size required to fit one of these monsters most likely could be engaged by a LWT. We are talking a torpedo the size of the US Mark VIII SDV. Also its range or speed would be pitiful unless they built a weapon the size of a Ghadir class sub.

EDIT: This is the scale of weapon we are talking about here:
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8789/novemberp.th.jpg (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/novemberp.jpg/)

Unless Pakistan or someone funnels some research back to the DPRK. Pakistan has tactical warheads that can fit on a tube launched LACM.

So do you think that Pakistan would aid a country that was intent on creating a war and feel happy being associated with said country?

[TLAM Strike]

So do you think that Pakistan would aid a country that was intent on creating a war and feel happy being associated with said country?


3 ways:

1st Pakistanis fooled in to aiding North Korea by a 3rd party. The north has been known to use proxies to get the restricted technologies it needs.

2nd $$$. Everyone has their price, even nuclear scientists.

3rd Theft of "loose" material from Pakistan. Extremists in Pakistan no doubt want a bomb and North Korea could help them built it if they stole the right material from Pakistan. Sort of 'steal us a bomb and we will make it work while we take pictures'.

[Jimbuna]

Fair points/guesstimates but I'm wondering who would have the money as you point to in '2'? :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Russia probably. Or at least...certain people and/or organisations in Russia.

[TLAM Strike]

Fair points/guesstimates but I'm wondering who would have the money as you point to in '2'? :hmmm:

The North will just have to sell some more guns, submarines and torpedo boats to get more hard currency that's all.

Those midget subs, semi-subs and torpedo boats are hot sellers.

... but if only their quality would improve then maybe they would get some repeat business! :haha:
(Except for the Ghadir and the high speed torpedo/missile boats like the Tir most of the boats are garbage and they are delivered with antique equipment or weapons like with Vietnam's Yugos.)

[TLAM Strike]

Or maybe some of those smart western educated Iranian engineering students might help make the bombs smaller...

Check this... (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/12/30/iran-test-nuclear-bomb-north-korea/)

Joint IRI/DPRK Nuclear Test??! :o

If this is true its the diplomatic equivalent of the ghosts of Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein having gay sex in front of school children, its like an unholy alliance of the Klingons and Romulans. We are getting in to potential multi-front war stuff here... :hmmm:

[the_tyrant]

If this is true its the diplomatic equivalent of the ghosts of Adolph Hitler and Saddam Hussein having gay sex in front of school children

WHY THE F**K DID YOU SUGGEST THAT IMAGE?:dead:
THAT MENTAL IMAGE IS SCARRING



though you do have a point with the Iran and north korea;)

[Krauter]

In my opinion, just:

A) Say there is "oil", "gold", "insert rare, expensive, needed material" in Iran. Invade/Bomb the crap out of them (smart bombs on their leader.. sorry can't remember the name..) and be done with this mess. As for Korea. Nuke the bastards already.

B) Just say screw it and invade/nuke with no pretences.

We need a leader with balls to deal with this matter. It's been dragging on for the past 50 years and its about time it be taken care of (Both Korea and Iran).

Krauter.

[TLAM Strike]

...their leader.. sorry can't remember the name..

Either you are referring to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei or President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

But if we did attack Iran its very likely they would retaliate with any WMDs they have (most like using chemical weapons incl. nerve agents) if their country existence was at stake.

[Gerald]

North Korea has said it wants to improve relations with the South, in its annual New Year's Eve message.But Pyongyang also vowed to increase its military strength, said the editorial published by state media.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12101609



Note: Update record, 1 January 2011 Last updated at 01:37 GMT

[Oberon]

its like an unholy alliance of the Klingons and Romulans. We are getting in to potential multi-front war stuff here... :hmmm:

http://www.jamietrinca.co.uk/uploads/vreenak.jpg

(although to be fair, that was only because the Feds kept them both in check, more comparisons could be drawn though, given the D-7 and cloaking device technology exchange treaty in 2267. Of course, given how weakened the Romulan empire is now, it's much more likely the Klingons would invade it than ally with it...bloody writers...making Hobus go nova...as bad as when they killed off the primary Asgard in SG-1 :damn::damn:)

[TLAM Strike]

(although to be fair, that was only because the Feds kept them both in check, more comparisons could be drawn though, given the D-7 and cloaking device technology exchange treaty in 2267. Of course, given how weakened the Romulan empire is now, it's much more likely the Klingons would invade it than ally with it...bloody writers...making Hobus go nova...as bad as when they killed off the primary Asgard in SG-1 :damn::damn:)

The only reason for the tech transfer of 2267 was that the warehouse where the bird of prey model was stored caught fire and it was lost. ;)

Another story is that the man who made it, who was not a member of the prop makers guild smashed it to bits in anger when the guild forced the makers of Star Trek to return it without paying him. :hmmm:

I hate JJA and those hack writers of the past few years of star trek. Seriously you have ships that can travel across the alpha quadrant in days now and they can't get to Romulus in time to save them? They should have years to get there maybe decades. If you are not going to stay consistent with the previous series from the 60s, 80s and 90s at least stay consistent with the last series that was on a few years ago!

Killing the Asguard was one of the worst decisions those writers made, it served no real plot point and then they bring them back for a few SGA episodes.


.... not totally off topic!c:haha:

[Oberon]

Glad we both think alike on that. Didn't realise the two stories behind the RL birth of the D-7, but then again Trek has always been a hive of kitbash before the day of digital, you only have to look at things like the Curry class and the ships at the Wolf 359 grave yard.

Anyway, mustn't drag this off topic now. :oops:

[Gerald]

This tread can hardly be of topic...

[Gerald]

IMJINGAK, South Korea – South Korean activists have rallied against North Korea near the heavily fortified border, burning placards with the images of North Korean leaders.

The activists burned placards with the images of a North Korean national flag and the photos of Kim and his son and heir-apparent Kim Jong Un before flying the balloons.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/01/02/skorean-activists-rally-nkorea-near-border/



Note: Published January 02, 2011

[joegrundman]

The activists also unsuccessfully tried to launch thousands of propaganda leaflets by balloons toward North Korea. The balloons flew southward and burst in mid-air in a southern town before crossing the border because of strong winds.

Those South Koreans need to learn about weather forecasts!

[Gerald]

Those South Koreans need to learn about weather forecasts! Yes,so true :yep:

[XabbaRus]

No no, it was the divine leader blowing them back with his new weather control system.

[Gerald]

No no, it was the divine leader blowing them back with his new weather control system. It is not April 1st yet ...:o

[Reece]

No no, it was the divine leader blowing them back with his new weather control system.
No! it's their glorious leaders... they are so full of hot air, that's what blew them back!!:yep:

[Gerald]

No! it's their glorious leaders... they are so full of hot air, that's what blew them back!!:yep: No, they are full of sh.....

[TLAM Strike]

No, they are full of sh.....

Show me a world leader who isn't! :O:

[Oberon]

Show me a world leader who isn't! :O:

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt213/SvenvW/Fun%20stuff/badum-tish.jpg

[Gerald]

Show me a world leader who isn't! :O: Do not ask questions like that so early in the morning, I know nothing about it, :D

[Castout]

Show me a world leader who isn't! :O:

Mahatma Gandhi!

Nelson Mandela though his political party now is riddled with corruption issues.

Martin Luther King Jr. Maybe not a sovereign leader but still a world class leader.

And John F Kennedy. He was shot to death. Period. End of argument.

and

Jean Luc Picard the finest captain and admiral mankind has ever known or will ever.

[Reece]

Jean Luc Picard the finest captain and admiral mankind has ever known or will ever.Amen to that!:salute:

[Gerald]

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak has said the door is open to new dialogue with North Korea.

However, the North should abandon its "military adventurism" first, he said.

Seoul would respond strongly to any threat against "an inch of our territory", he said, but with sincerity, progress could be made.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12106396


Note: 3 January 2011 Last updated at 05:35 GMT

[STEED]

Has the war been canceled for another 50 years? :hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

Jean Luc Picard the finest captain and admiral mankind has ever known or will ever.

Holograms and alternate realities/futures discounted Picard never made Admiral in canon Star Trek. :03:

[Castout]

Holograms and alternate realities/futures discounted Picard never made Admiral in canon Star Trek. :03:

He never?! :DL Blame it on the scriptwriter :O:. He was the perfect material for an admiral

[TLAM Strike]

He never?! :DL

From Memory Alpha (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Picard):

Other than in alternate realities, Jean-Luc Picard has always appeared as a captain, throughout the entire run of TNG and the subsequent movies. Data and Dr. Crusher are the only other characters to remain at the rank they started with. He was the perfect material for an admiral When Star Fleet made Janeway an Admiral I lost faith in whoever makes those decisions at Starfleet Command... :roll:

[Reece]

http://www.lostrepublic.us/Graphics/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

[Oberon]

When Star Fleet made Janeway an Admiral I lost faith in whoever makes those decisions at Starfleet Command... :roll:

Seconded. :yep:

[Castout]

I have a feeling Mr. Kim is going to be angry we hijacked his all important North Korea threatens South Korea with nuclear war with Jean Luc Picard.

http://sas.guidespot.com/bundles/guides_xi/assets/widget_abR0SlyWvpUzX87zxAyfRx.jpg

[Gerald]

I have a feeling Mr. Kim is going to be angry we hijacked his all important North Korea threatens South Korea with nuclear war with Jean Luc Picard.

http://sas.guidespot.com/bundles/guides_xi/assets/widget_abR0SlyWvpUzX87zxAyfRx.jpg Good idea, maybe we can beam away them to another planet, :O:

[Oberon]

Every day should be Captain Picard Day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiKwAS1qaCk

[Jimbuna]

Every day should be Captain Picard Day!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiKwAS1qaCk

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4782/makeitso776665.jpg

[Gerald]

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -The U.S. special envoy for North Korea arrived in South Korea Tuesday on a trip to the region to discuss next steps on the Korean Peninsula."We believe that serious negotiations must be at the heart of any strategy for dealing with North Korea," Ambassador Stephen Bosworth told reporters. "We look forward to being able to launch those at a reasonably early time."

Bosworth is also expected to travel to Japan and China this week to discuss the situation.

China is the isolated North's sole major ally and provides it with a crucial fuel and food lifeline.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/01/04/koreas.us.envoy/index.html?hpt=T2


Note: Update record,January 4, 2011 -- Updated 1411 GMT

[Jimbuna]

Really Gerald you should be on CNN texting off a tele prompter :DL