Wikileaks hacked ahead of new document release

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11858637

Now there's a shocker...question is, was it CIA, hackers funded by CIA or just some 4channers looking for some lols.

Either which way, the documents themselves will be good for a chuckle, I look forward to seeing how Obama thought Brown was, probably about the same as the rest of us. :haha:

[Jimbuna]

I'm reckoning on some fascinating revelations :DL

[Skybird]

Christmas TV special program coming. It promises to become more entertaining than the x-th repetition of The Treasure Island and Moby Dick. :yeah:

[Tchocky]

Docs available on The Guardian, New York Times, & Der Spiegel wobblesites.

[papa_smurf]

Christmas TV special program coming.

Heres one already: "Obama: What he really thought of Brown":D

[Oberon]

I do believe it has been released:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11858895

Some highlights:



Corruption within the Afghan government, with concerns heightened when a senior official was found to be carrying more than $50m in cash on a foreign trip
Bargaining to empty the Guantanamo Bay prison camp - including Slovenian diplomats being told to take in a freed prisoner if they wanted to secure a meeting with President Barack Obama
The extraordinarily close relationship between Russian PM Vladimir Putin and his Italian counterpart Silvio Berlusconi
Alleged links between the Russian government and organised crime
American and South Korean officials' discussions about the prospects for a unified Korea should North Korea collapse as a viable state
Sharply critical accounts of UK military operations in Afghanistan


EDIT: Turns out they've released parts of it to the Press to get around the DDOS attack.

[nikimcbee]

Heres one already: "Obama: What he really thought of Brown":D
I'm more interested in the reciprocal of that question.:hmmm:

On a side note, they are probably just steamy emails between Brown and Steed.:woot:

[August]

Christmas TV special program coming. It promises to become more entertaining than the x-th repetition of The Treasure Island and Moby Dick. :yeah:

Moby Dick is a Christmas TV special in Germany? That explains a lot! :hmmm: :DL

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/dieter.jpg

:D

[Fincuan]

Probably the same kind of "DDoS attack" that happened to Ubi a few weekends in a row when AC2 was released: The servers are just overloaded by all the legitimate users. They have after all advertised this release well beforehand.

[Wolfehunter]

If this information is so important to keep secret why would the CIA or any government US agency have this hacked and released? It wouldn't serve there best interest. Unless this information is a distraction to something more sinister at work or to hide. :hmmm:

[Tchocky]

If this information is so important to keep secret why would the CIA or any government US agency have this hacked and released? It wouldn't serve there best interest. Unless this information is a distraction to something more sinister at work or to hide. :hmmm:
The CIA/US are neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

[Gargamel]

The CIA/US are neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

:o Say it aint so........

[gimpy117]

I would bet it was done for the lulz

remember, 4chan is a group of hackers on steroids :DL

[Skybird]

I do believe it has been released:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11858895

Some highlights:



Corruption within the Afghan government, with concerns heightened when a senior official was found to be carrying more than $50m in cash on a foreign trip
Bargaining to empty the Guantanamo Bay prison camp - including Slovenian diplomats being told to take in a freed prisoner if they wanted to secure a meeting with President Barack Obama
The extraordinarily close relationship between Russian PM Vladimir Putin and his Italian counterpart Silvio Berlusconi
Alleged links between the Russian government and organised crime
American and South Korean officials' discussions about the prospects for a unified Korea should North Korea collapse as a viable state
Sharply critical accounts of UK military operations in Afghanistan
EDIT: Turns out they've released parts of it to the Press to get around the DDOS attack.

On Germany:

* In particular, the new Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle, leader of the pro-business Free Democrats (FDP), is seen in a negative light. The secret reports describe him as incompetent, vain and critical of America. The US diplomats report that they face a challenge in dealing with a politician who is considered an "enigma," who has little foreign policy experience and "remains skeptical about the US." An embassy cable from Berlin from Sept. 22, 2009 describes Westerwelle as having an "exuberant personality." That is why he finds it difficult to take a backseat when it comes to any matters of dispute with Chancellor Angela Merkel," the cable says.

* The Americans considered the chancellor to be the better contact person, when it came to foreign policy issues, the documents make clear. In comparison to Westerwelle, Merkel was seen as having "more government and foreign policy experience." However, the US diplomats also had reservations about the chancellor. She was referred to several times in the reports as Angela "Teflon" Merkel, because so little sticks to her. "She is risk averse and rarely creative" noted one report from March 24, 2009. The Americans argue that the chancellor views international diplomacy above all from the perspective of how she can profit from it domestically. Merkel had "cast off the yoke of the Grand Coalition only now to be encumbered with a new FDP-CSU double yoke," a cable from February 2010 reported

* Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg tattled on his colleague German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle, telling the US ambassador that Westerwelle was the real barrier to the Americans' request for an increase in the number of German troops in Afghanistan.

Little I would disagree with. They are just speaking out the obvious.

On Turkey:

* Viewed through the eyes of the US diplomats, entire states -- Kenya for example -- appear as mires of corruption. If one were to believe the gloomy reports from the embassy in Ankara, Turkey is on a slippery slope to volatile Islamism, spurred on by the narrow-minded government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan

All quoted by various articles of International Der Spiegel.

It will become difficult for Washington to promote Turkey's EU access anymore as a win for stability, progress and democracy, if it now is shown that in reality they judge it to fall back into the rule of Islamic fundamentalism.

It seems, by the quick summary of the first articles giving general overviews, that a whole lot of cables from the ME countries shows how stunningly weak US position there is, that the US gets instrumentalised by local power factions who abuse its naivety and lacking insight, and that the internal assessment of conditions in these countries is far more negative then publicly claimed by the US government. Which let's US foreign policies appear even more self-contradicting and lacking strategic orientation than even I have alwys claimed they are.

[kranz]

4chan is a group of hackers on steroids :DL
I was always told that 4chan does not exist.

[antikristuseke]

4chan is best described as organized anarchy, which is a contradiction in terms in and of itself.

[Platapus]

Well, since Wikileaks does not care about who they hurt or the harms they cause, why should I care what happens to their server. :nope:

As far as I am concerned, the entire wikileak server can catch fire. :nope:

Assange is a child playing a dangerous game.

[mookiemookie]

Well, since Wikileaks does not care about who they hurt or the harms they cause, why should I care what happens to their server. :nope:

As far as I am concerned, the entire wikileak server can catch fire. :nope:

Assange is a child playing a dangerous game.

Don't shoot the messenger. How's the government's favorite phrase go? "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear." I find it funny when it gets turned back around on them.

[goldorak]

On Turkey:

* Viewed through the eyes of the US diplomats, entire states -- Kenya for example -- appear as mires of corruption. If one were to believe the gloomy reports from the embassy in Ankara, Turkey is on a slippery slope to volatile Islamism, spurred on by the narrow-minded government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan

All quoted by various articles of International Der Spiegel.

It will become difficult for Washington to promote Turkey's EU access anymore as a win for stability, progress and democracy, if it now is shown that in reality they judge it to fall back into the rule of Islamic fundamentalism.

It seems, by the quick summary of the first articles giving general overviews, that a whole lot of cables from the ME countries shows how stunningly weak US position there is, that the US gets instrumentalised by local power factions who abuse its naivety and lacking insight, and that the internal assessment of conditions in these countries is far more negative then publicly claimed by the US government. Which let's US foreign policies appear even more self-contradicting and lacking strategic orientation than even I have alwys claimed they are.

If only the EU had a pair of @@ not only to stop Turkey for even thinking about EU membership but also tell the US to mind their business.
Don't they have 2 wars to wage, and maybe a third one with Iran ? :shifty:
Maybe we should start by tearing down NATO and US presence in europe. The cold war is no more, we don't need americans medling in european affairs.

As for Italy, all I can say is have a good laugh, criminals always come together

http://www.boingboing.net/images/batmanandrobinandsylvio.jpg

[Platapus]

Don't shoot the messenger. How's the government's favorite phrase go? "If you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to fear." I find it funny when it gets turned back around on them.

When the messenger is the person leaking this information, yes we should shoot the messenger. Please don't try to make Assange into an innocent victim or worse some sort of hero. He is neither.

He has chosen to form his organization into a hostile foreign intelligence service (hostile to not just the USA) and his organization will be acted upon as such.

That's what I meant by Assange being a child playing a dangerous game. Not only does he not know the rules, he does not even know the players. :nope:

[the_tyrant]

it was done by the chinese honkers
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=943852724
apparently, it was because wikileaks claims that the honkers (or Chinese government) attacked google

[Skybird]

The leaking is a two-sided sword. On some issues, it can help to enforce greater honesty and congruence between claims made, and action. On other issues it can cause embarassment over all to human flaws and minor issues, complicating international intercommunication nfor reasons not justifyng them.

However, former competently done investigative journalism did thinks like these leakings as well, think of Watergate and the consequences. The difference now is that the quantity is massively beyond the level known from revealing journalism of thnat era. But investigative, solid journalism is in decline. The press as an independant monitor and guardian of democratic poltical proceedings, is in decline. Inmternet services seem to have boosted options on information, and the variety of these. But if you look carefully, you see that quality of internet news is mostly very, very bad, fact checking is being replaced by chain-copying of claims, and the number of indepednantly compared and verified sources has not grown by has been redcued in numbers. Internet information in many fields has become bigger in numbers, and poorer in quality, more shallow, and serving manipulative interests whose validity of claims is not beeing checked.

Something like wikileaks seems to serve in the function of a radical counter-reaction to this decline of solid information culture of now dying journalism quality standards.

That the victim of the latest coup, the US, once again cries heaven is falling liek the last time, is the to be expected reaction, and like the last two times for the most is just a propaganda claim using an overdose of pathetic rethoric in order to raise support for it'S condemnation of the "coup".

More important is if these latest lessons, like the Stuxnet attack on the centrifuges in Iran, will teach America something on its principal vulnerability in the computer-, IT- and cyberfield. And that means: will it teach European nations something as well - or not. Higher complexity almost always goes hand in hand with greater fragility and lower robustness. Something that high tech nations seem to constantly ignore, or underestimate. And no, more censorship and dictatorship is not the answer.

[Oberon]

Thomas Jefferson said it best I think.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. "

[TLAM Strike]

Thomas Jefferson said it best I think.

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. "

When you have both its Communism... :03:

[Ducimus]

When the messenger is the person leaking this information, yes we should shoot the messenger. Please don't try to make Assange into an innocent victim or worse some sort of hero. He is neither.

He has chosen to form his organization into a hostile foreign intelligence service (hostile to not just the USA) and his organization will be acted upon as such.

That's what I meant by Assange being a child playing a dangerous game. Not only does he not know the rules, he does not even know the players. :nope:

This guy gets his rocks off by pissing in the face of the United States, and feels he's so god damn self righteous no matter how many people he ends up getting killed. The worst part is, he can't see past his own ego. That much is patently obvious. If it were up to me, he'd be having a very nasty "accident", though I'd rather him disappear altogether like Jimmy Hoffa.

[the_tyrant]

This guy gets his rocks off by pissing in the face of the United States, and feels he's so god damn self righteous no matter how many people he ends up getting killed. The worst part is, he can't see past his own ego. That much is patently obvious. If it were up to me, he'd be having a very nasty "accident", though I'd rather him disappear altogether like Jimmy Hoffa.

:up: agreed
Doesn't the US have laws limiting the distributing of secret files?
Why isn't everybody working with wikileaks arrested yet?

[VipertheSniper]

:up: agreed
Doesn't the US have laws limiting the distributing of secret files?
Why isn't everybody working with wikileaks arrested yet?


From what I've read in an article today, security from the inside of the system is pretty weak, and there are 850.000 people who have access to classified information, so I guess that could take a while to find every leak.

[TLAM Strike]

:up: agreed
Doesn't the US have laws limiting the distributing of secret files?
Why isn't everybody working with wikileaks arrested yet? They did arrest that one army guy for what he did a few months ago.

They are based in Sweden so its probably complected. But I heard that some in the US Government are talking about having Wikileaks declared a terrorist organization under US law.

From what I've read in an article today, security from the inside of the system is pretty weak, and there are 850.000 people who have access to classified information, so I guess that could take a while to find every leak. In some countries those 850,000 people would all be shot if something like this happened...

...just saying...

[goldorak]

In some countries those 850,000 people would all be shot if something like this happened...
...just saying...

Its lucky then that you happen to live in a democracy with a free press.
Ah those pesky bastard reporters, if only they could be muzzled and sent of to guantanamo bay if they ever critised their government. Lets call all of them terrorists since they don't agree with our [US governments] view.
...just saying....

[DarkFish]

Its lucky then that you happen to live in a democracy with a free press.
Ah those pesky bastard reporters, if only they could be muzzled and sent of to guantanamo bay if they ever critised their government. Lets call all of them terrorists since they don't agree with our [US governments] view.
...just saying....Aye. The public has a right to know what the government does. If the government can secretly do whatever they like, without caring about what the public thinks, without caring what the public voted for, then what's the difference from a dictatorship?

[Platapus]

Aye. The public has a right to know what the government does. If the government can secretly do whatever they like, without caring about what the public thinks, without caring what the public voted for, then what's the difference from a dictatorship?


Not that I am disagreeing with you (nor agreeing with you for that matter), but when people throw out the word "Right", I like to ask them for their source.

Where is it written that the public has a right to know specific details about what their government does?

The whole concept of a representative government is so that the public does not need to know all the details. The public elects representatives and these representatives are empowered by the public to make decisions on behalf of the citizens. If the decisions are not in agreement with the citizens, in a representative government, the citizens can elect someone else. But I am not aware of any policy that allows the public to know specific details of what the government does, especially when it comes to national security.

So why do you think the public has a "right" to know everything that their government does?

A desire to know, sure. But really a "right"?

[XabbaRus]

But is exposing things governments don't make available to us justified when the exposing puts at direct risk serving men and women or people working for us, eg informants in Afghanistan?

The idea behind wikileaks is laudable but only in a perfect world. He is being holier than thou with no thought for the people he could be endagering.

As for what ambassadors think about Brown or Cameron I don't care, though I did take a little afrontage over the remarks about keeping the UK govt. hanging about the so called special relationship.

[Rilder]

It looks like the guy tried to get specifics on who he'd be putting at risk so he could make sure what he released didn't threaten them but the government continued to whine to try and stop him from releasing everything. So I'm gonna go with the stuff released not actually putting anybody in danger just the government trying to get the peasants on their side against him.

[Aramike]

Aye. The public has a right to know what the government does. If the government can secretly do whatever they like, without caring about what the public thinks, without caring what the public voted for, then what's the difference from a dictatorship? Ummm, how does secrecy in government in any way have anything to do with the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy?

Honestly, are you suggesting that all American citizens be allowed to, say, know the deployment of our special forces at all times?

The public does NOT have any right to know everything the government does - I'm not sure where you've gleaned said "right" from, but it does not exist. We, in the US, elect our officials with implicit trust to do what is in our best interest, INCLUDING when it is in our best interests to not know.

Obviously there are limits to this, but complete transparency would be foolish - in fact, should we be completely transparent, we would be exceptionally vulnerable to destruction. Then where does your non-existant "right" to complete transparency come from?

Ultimately, the wisdom of classification is that the public rightly doesn't trust itself.

[mookiemookie]

The idea behind wikileaks is laudable but only in a perfect world. He is being holier than thou with no thought for the people he could be endagering.


Who should you be mad at? The government that does the shady and rotten things that endanger its troops or citizens? Or the person who brings it out in the open?

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, electric light the best policeman.

[Aramike]

Who should you be mad at? The government that does the shady and rotten things that endanger its troops or citizens? Or the person who brings it out in the open?

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, electric light the best policeman.Horsecrap.

This person didn't just bring specific cases to light - he leaked EVERYTHING he could get his hands on, in the hopes that such cases would be scrutinized.

[Ducimus]

The sad truth is that the public can't always grasp an entire situation, or, the public can't handle the truth in an entire situation. I do NOT agree with everything my government does, but i do understand and agree with on why some things should not by privy to the public domain.

Because doing so will either
a.) puts lives at risk.
b.) Puts the mission at risk, (militarily speaking), which in turn could cause a cascade of loss of life, or national security
c.) Will cause a public panic.
d.) All of the above.

[Platapus]

Who should you be mad at? The government that does the shady and rotten things that endanger its troops or citizens? Or the person who brings it out in the open?



Neither. I am mad at the person who was authorized access to this information and illegally gave it to wikileaks.

Wikieaks does not have a legal responsibility to safeguard classified information. They may have a moral responsibility but that is for another discussion.

The people who do have legal access to this information do have a legal responsibility to safeguard this information. The ones that betrayed their oath are the criminals and I hope they get caught.

[The Third Man]

The Obama Admin is reportedly trying closed the barn door after the horses have fled, when it has become obvious that Bush couldn't be blamed for the incompetance of the last 21 months..

[mookiemookie]

Horsecrap.

This person didn't just bring specific cases to light - he leaked EVERYTHING he could get his hands on, in the hopes that such cases would be scrutinized.

As Google's CEO, Eric Schmidt, so arrogantly put it (but it's true in this case)

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."

Neither. I am mad at the person who was authorized access to this information and illegally gave it to wikileaks.

I can understand and agree on some level with this line of thinking.

[DarkFish]

Not that I am disagreeing with you (nor agreeing with you for that matter), but when people throw out the word "Right", I like to ask them for their source.

Where is it written that the public has a right to know specific details about what their government does?I'm not talking about some kind of legal right that's written in your laws. Just about a symbolic one.

If the decisions are not in agreement with the citizens, in a representative government, the citizens can elect someone else.But how can the citizens know these decisions are not in agreement with them, if these decisions are not known?

Ummm, how does secrecy in government in any way have anything to do with the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy?

Honestly, are you suggesting that all American citizens be allowed to, say, know the deployment of our special forces at all times?The government makes decisions on behalf of its citizens. The government is chosen by those same citizens. Now if you remove the ability for those citizens to know what the government does, how can the government be a truthful representative of the citizens? It can't.
One of the requisites of democracy is this ability to know about the actions of the government. Because voting is based upon these actions. Remove this ability, and you remove the ability to truthfully vote.

Furthermore, the deployment of troops or the execution of military commands is not on the government level.
If the government would release any details on military operations, yes, the military would be at risk. But the government generally doesn't make those detailed plans, the military does. The government tells the army "Invade Iraq", "Kill Bin Laden" etc.
I think the public should know whether or not for example a war is imminent. This way they have the opportunity to oppose against it if it's not according to their wishes.

If a government-issued command endangers an operation, I think such information can and should be withheld - UNTIL the end of the operation. When the operation is completed this government-issued command should be released to the public, so they can form their own opinion about it.

Example: Obama decides Ahmadinejad should be killed. He commands this to the CIA.
Up until now, the public shouldn't know about it. If it does, Ahmadinejad can be tipped off and go into hiding.
The CIA sends a kill squad to Iran and shoots the target.
When the target is dead, it should be revealed that it was done by the CIA, or at least that the CIA had an ongoing operation to kill him. If the public is dead against the assassination, they can oppose it by for example not re-electing Obama.

Who should you be mad at? The government that does the shady and rotten things that endanger its troops or citizens? Or the person who brings it out in the open?

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, electric light the best policeman.Exactly:up:

[Ducimus]

As Google's CEO, Eric Schmidt, so arrogantly put it (but it's true in this case)

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."



In day to day life, that's something i live by. However, the way the world works beyond our daily lives, beyond our borders...... it's not always so black and white. Sometimes the best answer is in a shade of gray. That's just how it is, and not everyone can accept or handle that.

[the_tyrant]

As Google's CEO, Eric Schmidt, so arrogantly put it (but it's true in this case)

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."


that is really a bad quote
a better quote would be "we have elected officials to keep us from thinking, thats what they are for"-homer simpson

there are things that they keep away from us for our own good.
Anyways, i am sure that there are things that do that you really don't want the rest of us to know. That doesn't keep you from doing things that you don't want me to know about.

Just like us, the government has it's rights to secrecy too

[Cohaagen]

:up: agreed
Doesn't the US have laws limiting the distributing of secret files?
Why isn't everybody working with wikileaks arrested yet?

Because...

a) Julian Assange is neither American, nor resident there
b) most of the WikiLeaks staff are Swedish or Icelandic
c) WikiLeaks is hosted in Sweden, which is not part of the United States, and is in fact a sovereign foreign country - you'll find it in any US atlas, marked "Here Be Dragons"

This guy gets his rocks off by pissing in the face of the United States, and feels he's so god damn self righteous no matter how many people he ends up getting killed.

I would really like to know how any of the information they have released could result in anything more serious than severe embarrassment. Let's have a handful of examples showing the mortal consequences we're constantly warned of - actually, let's see if you can find one verified instance of an American croaking as a direct result of WikiLeak's uncomfortable revelations over the last year or so.

[the_tyrant]

c) WikiLeaks is hosted in Sweden, which is not part of the United States, and is in fact a sovereign foreign country - you'll find it in any US atlas, marked "Here Be Dragons"

How the hell the a bunch of swedish dudes without government support succeed at doing something that KIm Jiong Il and the KGB failed?
This guys gets tonnes of secret files, and ridicules the US
I suspect this guy is making most of the S**t up, since we can't see the originals anyways, we don't know if its true or not

also, I suspect this guy is affiliated with a big company like blackwater, or a government

[Aramike]

The government makes decisions on behalf of its citizens. The government is chosen by those same citizens. Now if you remove the ability for those citizens to know what the government does, how can the government be a truthful representative of the citizens? It can't.Umm, really?

This is still citizen government. However, the government REPRESENTS the citizens. That's the whole freakin' point of representative government in a democratic republic - so that each citizen doesn't need to know everything in order to have what is accepted to be their best interests represented.

We are not a straight-up democracy where everything is voted upon, and therefore, it would be necessary to obtain fully informed votes upon everything. Our founding fathers weren't that stupid. Or rather, they were smart enough to know that it is not in the public's best interest to be completely transparent, but rather, to reveal such information to SELECT, duly elected REPRESENTATIVES of the people.

That is what the word "representation" means.But how can the citizens know these decisions are not in agreement with them, if these decisions are not known?Results.Furthermore, the deployment of troops or the execution of military commands is not on the government level.I'm sorry, but are you even taking this seriously? Who's the Commander-in-Chief? Is the Presidency (you know, the Executive Branch) not government now? Or is this just spin to try to make your argument make sense?If the government would release any details on military operations, yes, the military would be at risk. But the government generally doesn't make those detailed plans, the military does. The government tells the army "Invade Iraq", "Kill Bin Laden" etc.Do you really have any idea of what you're talking about?

What do YOU think the CinC does, or SecDef for that matter? Surely you do realize that pretty much all of our black operations come on directive from the White House, originating from a little document known as a National Intelligence Estimate, which our President reads daily... And, surely you're aware of the fact that the specifics of such operations, more often than not, are run through both the State Department and the Justice Department to examine possible ramifications, right?If a government-issued command endangers an operation, I think such information can and should be withheld - UNTIL the end of the operation. When the operation is completed this government-issued command should be released to the public, so they can form their own opinion about it.Why? So we can endanger those assets we have in the field which gives us intel on which commands are made?

This is a Submarine board, so let me use a Submarine example to make my point. Ever hear of the German Enigma code? What happens when we let the enemy know we're responding to things we're not even supposed to know about?

You guessed it: he changes the code. Example: Obama decides Ahmadinejad should be killed. He commands this to the CIA.
Up until now, the public shouldn't know about it. If it does, Ahmadinejad can be tipped off and go into hiding.
The CIA sends a kill squad to Iran and shoots the target.
When the target is dead, it should be revealed that it was done by the CIA, or at least that the CIA had an ongoing operation to kill him. If the public is dead against the assassination, they can oppose it by for example not re-electing Obama.I'm sorry, man, but that is hopelessly naive.

Should the State Department also release that we decided to act in concert with, say, the Germans? What if the Germans don't want that? Would they ever engage in such dealings with us again?

You can't be serious...

[Aramike]

As Google's CEO, Eric Schmidt, so arrogantly put it (but it's true in this case)

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." This isn't about sneaking a Twinkie from the snack box in the middle of the night, here. And that quote is as silly as it is trite.

There are plenty of things that most of us do in our day to day life that we wouldn't want others to know. Say someone's looking for a better job. Should they NOT be allowed to keep that information from their current boss?

I could come up with example upon example as to how secrecy and compartmentalization of intelligence and foreign relations is paramount.

[Ducimus]

How the hell the a bunch of swedish dudes without government support succeed at doing something that KIm Jiong Il and the KGB failed?

My understanding of it is this:

Some puke in the US army with access to sensitive material gets some stupid ideas in his head. He leaks info. I forget what it was exactly, but He's caught, but isn't removed from his position, nor has his security clearances revoked. BIG mistake on the part of the army.

Later on same Army puke who's gone hippie commie, gives out a crapton of sensitive info to wiki leaks. Army puke goes to prison. Wiki leaks profits. Self righteous attention whore at wiki leaks gets his fugly mug in all the newspapers. Turmoil ensues.

[DarkFish]

Umm, really?

This is still citizen government. However, the government REPRESENTS the citizens. That's the whole freakin' point of representative government in a democratic republic - so that each citizen doesn't need to know everything in order to have what is accepted to be their best interests represented.Doesn't *need* to know. The point of a representative government is that the average citizen can just live its live without having to know all and everything, they can just sit back and watch TV while others care about diplomatic stuff and such. But the fact that they don't *need* to know says nothing about whether or not they *should be able* to know.

Results.Results? Results to what exactly? Because it is not known what is done, remember?
Results are not everything that matters to the public. The US is in debt? You can either save a few bucks by cutting costs, or you can gain a few bucks by assassinating the richest few and stealing their money. The short term results are the same. But I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't agree with the second way.

I'm sorry, but are you even taking this seriously? Who's the Commander-in-Chief? Is the Presidency (you know, the Executive Branch) not government now? Or is this just spin to try to make your argument make sense?

Do you really have any idea of what you're talking about?

What do YOU think the CinC does, or SecDef for that matter?So you're saying that the CinC/SecDef/President make all tactical decisions?
That's great news! What do you need your officers for? Just sack all those expensive generals and save a few bucks:yeah:

Surely you do realize that pretty much all of our black operations come on directive from the White House, originating from a little document known as a National Intelligence Estimate, which our President reads daily... And, surely you're aware of the fact that the specifics of such operations, more often than not, are run through both the State Department and the Justice Department to examine possible ramifications, right?Did you even read what I wrote? Apparently not. Why don't you get back on this once you have?

Why? So we can endanger those assets we have in the field which gives us intel on which commands are made?See above.

This is a Submarine board, so let me use a Submarine example to make my point. Ever hear of the German Enigma code? What happens when we let the enemy know we're responding to things we're not even supposed to know about?

You guessed it: he changes the code.The intelligence gathering operation is still going on. So according to my ideas the information should still be withheld. Sorry, but your example only proves my point.

Should the State Department also release that we decided to act in concert with, say, the Germans? What if the Germans don't want that? Would they ever engage in such dealings with us again?If it's something the Germans don't want to be associated with, one can wonder whether it is something the US should be doing.
Otherwise, you can simply replace "German" with "a foreign nation" in the report.

[Skybird]

More undiplomatic assessments of Turkey and Erdoghan (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,732084,00.html)

Should I feel relief now that unofficially the US obviously agrees with my views of Turkey's suspicious nature, and seems to do so since years - or should I feel worried by the dimension of lacking consequences of Washington responding to these shifting views, and the stubborness by which Washington still demands this snake being accepted into the EU and still tries to ignore it's dubious nature?


The US is concerned about its NATO ally Turkey. Embassy dispatches portray Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan as a power-hungry Islamist surrounded by corrupt and incompetent ministers. Washington no longer believes that the country will ever join the European Union.

The Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is the most important Muslim ally of the United States. On coming into office he promised a democratic Islam -- a vision that could have become a model for other countries in the region.

But if the US dispatches are to be believed, Turkey is far from realizing that vision. Erdogan? A power-hungry Islamist. His ministers? Incompetent, uneducated and some of them corrupt. The government? Divided. The opposition? Ridiculous.

US diplomats have sent thousands of reports from Ankara to Washington in the past 31 years. Recent documents, though, are merciless. They convey an image of Turkey which is at odds with almost everything the US government has officially said about the country.
(...)
The prime minister grew up in Kasimpaa, a rough port district of Istanbul, and became involved in a radical Islamist organization as a young man before joining the conservative Order of the Nakibendye. Before the entering government, he said: "Democracy is like a train. We shall get out when we arrive at the station we want."
(...)
Some AKP politicians, according to a US assessment, support Turkish membership in the EU for "murky" and "muddled" reasons, for example because they believe Turkey must spread Islam in Europe. A US dispatch from late 2004 reports that a member of a leading AKP think tank said that Turkey's role is "to take back Andalusia and avenge the defeat at the siege of Vienna in 1683."

Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu largely shares this viewpoint and the Americans are alarmed by his imperialistic tone. In a summary of a speech by Davutoglu delivered in Sarajevo in January 2010, the US ambassador wrote: "His thesis: the Balkans, Caucasus and Middle East were all better off when under Ottoman control or influence; peace and progress prevailed. Alas the region has been ravaged by division and war ever since.... However, now Turkey is back, ready to lead or even unite. (Davutoglu: 'We will re-establish this (Ottoman) Balkan')."
(...)

[Aramike]

Doesn't *need* to know. The point of a representative government is that the average citizen can just live its live without having to know all and everything, they can just sit back and watch TV while others care about diplomatic stuff and such. But the fact that they don't *need* to know says nothing about whether or not they *should be able* to know.

Results? Results to what exactly? Because it is not known what is done, remember?
Results are not everything that matters to the public. The US is in debt? You can either save a few bucks by cutting costs, or you can gain a few bucks by assassinating the richest few and stealing their money. The short term results are the same. But I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't agree with the second way.

So you're saying that the CinC/SecDef/President make all tactical decisions?
That's great news! What do you need your officers for? Just sack all those expensive generals and save a few bucks:yeah:

Did you even read what I wrote? Apparently not. Why don't you get back on this once you have?

See above.

The intelligence gathering operation is still going on. So according to my ideas the information should still be withheld. Sorry, but your example only proves my point.

If it's something the Germans don't want to be associated with, one can wonder whether it is something the US should be doing.
Otherwise, you can simply replace "German" with "a foreign nation" in the report.It's quite clear you're stretching here, as well as taking my responses out of the contexts of YOUR own quotes. As such, I'm going to let my (and basic) logic stand for itself and thank God that the vast majority of people on both sides of the aisle AND the Constitution understands the need for secrecy.

[Tribesman]

Results are not everything that matters to the public.
But results might be all that matter to those who don't want the public to know unless it is a result they can sell to the public.
So secrecy is needed as it would be bad enough for people to find their "representatives" are doing business with a crazy murdering drug dealer, breaking all their own laws and misappropriating tax payers money on harebrained schemes, it would be really bad if the bad actions were publicised and they hadn't achieved any positive results at all.
So to keep the population informed and keep the representatives accountable it is important that only success stories with good results are publicised and only then if they have been done all nice andf legal without having to grub around with notorious scumbags:yeah:

One thing out of this latest pile of leaks I find funny.
Prince Andrew and doing business/corruption.
It shines some light on his ex-wife and the errrrrr...... businessmens donations to her "help me" fund

[Skybird]

Pakistan:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,732110,00.html


The Pakistanis' sophisticated nuclear program is one of the main reasons why the US continues to increase its involvement in the region. The Americans know how unstable the country is, and how weak the government is. They also reveal how the Pakistani military and intelligence agency play the political game according to their own rules.

[TLAM Strike]

The AP reported this today:


WikiLeaks said the malicious traffic was coming in at 10 gigabits per second on Tuesday, which would make it a relatively large effort. According to a study by Internet security company Arbor Networks, the average denial of service attack over the past year was 349 megabits per second, 28 times slower than the stream Wikileaks reported.

Read more: http://defensetech.org/#ixzz16on1hs1t
Defense.org

Who ever is going this DDOS attack is hitting them with a movie DVD every second. That just amazing.

[the_tyrant]

The AP reported this today:


Who ever is going this DDOS attack is hitting them with a movie DVD every second. That just amazing.

that would be 2 dvds or a 2 sided dvd, since a dvd is 4.7gbs
assume that each "zombie" in the botnet contributes an average of 100kb/s
the number of systems in this botnet would have to amount to 100 systems
which if you think about it isn't that amazing.....

edit: depends on what method was used in the attack, if it was pinging that would take a lot more systems

edit 2: darn, my bad. 100 systems is only 10 megabytes, it would have to be 100thousand systems for 10 gigabytes

[Platapus]

Example: Obama decides Ahmadinejad should be killed. He commands this to the CIA.
Up until now, the public shouldn't know about it. If it does, Ahmadinejad can be tipped off and go into hiding.
The CIA sends a kill squad to Iran and shoots the target.
When the target is dead, it should be revealed that it was done by the CIA, or at least that the CIA had an ongoing operation to kill him. If the public is dead against the assassination, they can oppose it by for example not re-electing Obama.



Suppose the only way the CIA could get access to Ahmadinejad would be if they posed as representatives of the International Commission of the Red Cross from Switzerland... and we did not tell the Swiss (which would not be surprising).

Do you still think the people have a right to know that their country violated about a hundred conventions, agreements, treaties and laws even though the cause may be "good"?

No. Oftentimes the reason such operations need to be kept secret is not due to the target, but the methods of access.

International policy is a dirty game. We are making deals with countries you would be shocked at, and going behind the backs of our closest friends. We are making and accepting trade-offs that would morally offend many US citizens.

Politics making strange bedfellows is a virginal honeymoon compared with our foreign policy. I have been working international policy analysis for almost 30 years (next year!). It is an ugly side of Realpolitik. The reason citizens can enjoy their feelings of pride in their country is
That. They. Don't. Know. About. It.

It is not something to be proud of, but it does reflect the ugly reality of foreign policy.

The truly damaging part of the wikileaks is that data is being released without context or confirmation. Citizens will read a few documents, assume that what they are reading is true, and make conclusions and inferences that may be completely inaccurate simply because they lack the training, experience, and background data necessary to be able to evaluate data like this. This is my profession and it is not easy.

President Bush once commented that he does not "do nuance" when it comes to foreign policy. Well foreign policy is nothing but nuance. :yep:

And reading a little data out of context is a good way to make a wrong inference.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Do you still think the people have a right to know that their country violated about a hundred conventions, agreements, treaties and laws even though the cause may be "good"?

No. Oftentimes the reason such operations need to be kept secret is not due to the target, but the methods of access.

I'll argue that we still retain the right to know. Maybe it turns out the average American citizen is not so eager to have Ahmadinejad killed that they want their agents to pose as Red Cross representatives.

Imagine a boss (in a democracy, surely we, the common citizenry are the bosses, at least in theory) being told he can't access what a deputy (which is what a representative is, to say nothing of a government bureaucrat) is doing because the deputy claims that the methods are really dirty and he really shouldn't know.

The boss may accept the deputy's explanation that it is all the better if he doesn't poke his nose into this affair. But to say he doesn't have the right to is a whole different thing.

[Tribesman]

The reason citizens can enjoy their feelings of pride in their country is
That. They. Don't. Know. About. It.

Doesn't that rather demonstrate how some posters "pride" in their country and its actions are often so ridiculous.
After all it can only mean that their views being expressed are either based on plain ignorance or on pure hypocracy.

[Skybird]

cables about the Georgian war (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,732294,00.html)

[Skybird]

cables about the immense Arab hostility against a nuclear armed Iran (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-731877,00.html)

Some of you guys still want to call me a "hawk"? :DL In the company of these people, I'm feeling more like a dove. ;)

[Catfish]

Hello,
it is interesting that all people here want to kill Assange, while no one cares about what has been brought to light.

I take it when atrocities to the civilian population done by the SS in 1941 leaked out, it would be perfectly ok with you to kill the publisher ?

The point is not that wikileaks published how the US sees german politicians, the (Ras)Putin clown or Berlusconi (the US are perfectly right in judging, and i would have been able to tell exactly this to the US long before lol), but that the last wars were wars of aggression, and the killing of hundred thousands civilians was considered as necessary and accepted, by "democratic" governments. This is just to show that those crazy conspiracy theories obviously are not really theories.
The point is that everyone with a half pound of brain would have expected this, but now there is proof.

I also think they did not hack all, since the most interesting details about the international banking systems have not been published. This is still due for early 2011.

The internet will be heavily censored in the future, but it may be that - since it is a world-wide web - they will not manage to get it censored entirely - at least as long as companies like Google do not voluntarily support e.g. the chinese government by only letting pass censored chinese government information.


The point that "Assange plays with fire" is imho due to the fact that most of those cold war warriors have not yet accepted that we are indeed living in a new age of information, and responsability. More people are better educated than ever, and they are indeed waking up. Obama knows that, but his own advisors do not.
Governments will not be able to do the most atrocious things undercover anymore, at least without that being brought to light sooner or later.
I think this is a good thing. If you prefer to be belied and blinded, it is your decision. But then do not criticize the german population of 1933 to 1945 of having been "blind".

Greetings,
Catfish

[DarkFish]

Catfish, you couldn't have said it any better:salute: :up:

[joea]

Catfish, you couldn't have said it any better:salute: :up:

Amen brother! :yep:

[mookiemookie]

Hello,
it is interesting that all people here want to kill Assange, while no one cares about what has been brought to light.

I take it when atrocities to the civilian population done by the SS in 1941 leaked out, it would be perfectly ok with you to kill the publisher ?

The point is not that wikileaks published how the US sees german politicians, the (Ras)Putin clown or Berlusconi (the US are perfectly right in judging, and i would have been able to tell exactly this to the US long before lol), but that the last wars were wars of aggression, and the killing of hundred thousands civilians was considered as necessary and accepted, by "democratic" governments. This is just to show that those crazy conspiracy theories obviously are not really theories.
The point is that everyone with a half pound of brain would have expected this, but now there is proof.

I also think they did not hack all, since the most interesting details about the international banking systems have not been published. This is still due for early 2011.

The internet will be heavily censored in the future, but it may be that - since it is a world-wide web - they will not manage to get it censored entirely - at least as long as companies like Google do not voluntarily support e.g. the chinese government by only letting pass censored chinese government information.


The point that "Assange plays with fire" is imho due to the fact that most of those cold war warriors have not yet accepted that we are indeed living in a new age of information, and responsability. More people are better educated than ever, and they are indeed waking up. Obama knows that, but his own advisors do not.
Governments will not be able to do the most atrocious things undercover anymore, at least without that being brought to light sooner or later.
I think this is a good thing. If you prefer to be belied and blinded, it is your decision. But then do not criticize the german population of 1933 to 1945 of having been "blind".

Greetings,
Catfish

You're exactly right. The powers that be want to put the focus on Assange, when he's only a sideshow in all of this.

[Blood_splat]

People will still be more interested in reality shows.:rotfl2:

[Betonov]

There's a whole media storm here about these leaks.
It says that our prime minister (pahor) was prepared to take one guantanamo prisoner to slovenia for a 20min visit with president Obama. Bringing in another useless expense into a already strained economy for his own little egotrip... the shame is unbearable :oops:

[Solace]

Who else saw this coming?

[heartc]

Hello,
it is interesting that all people here want to kill Assange, while no one cares about what has been brought to light.

I take it when atrocities to the civilian population done by the SS in 1941 leaked out, it would be perfectly ok with you to kill the publisher ?

The point is not that wikileaks published how the US sees german politicians, the (Ras)Putin clown or Berlusconi (the US are perfectly right in judging, and i would have been able to tell exactly this to the US long before lol), but that the last wars were wars of aggression, and the killing of hundred thousands civilians was considered as necessary and accepted, by "democratic" governments. This is just to show that those crazy conspiracy theories obviously are not really theories.
The point is that everyone with a half pound of brain would have expected this, but now there is proof.



God damnit. Why is it that many Euros and especially Germans are constantly spewing their bile hatred on the net without checking any facts or providing sources? Hate the US much, yes?

Where do you get "the killing" of your "hundred thousands civilians" from??? Not from wikileak, I tell you. You make that crap up in your head, do you. You MIX $HIT UP. But you don't care, since your only point is "I HATE THE US, I HATE THE US, because I'm suffering from my stuipd guilt and inferiority complex."
You DON'T CARE FOR FACTS, and that you have in common with almost ALL the Anti-American bigots running around in Europe these days.

First, the number is wrong, and second, the number - which is actually in the tens of thousands - is casualties from ALL causes, if anything. Or do you really think the coalition forces in Iraq or Afghanistan are moving from house to house, gunning down / blowing up people for fun, or carpet bomb every city in which they encounter an enemy sniper???
If you want to find SS style, look in your own damn history, but you people constantly try to project it onto everybody else, specifically on those who kicked the SS to hell, or - which is even more disgusting - on those who themselves were murdered by the SS. You people really should take a seat on Dr. Freud's couch once in a while.

And what is this crap I'm constantly reading from people who want to seem "smart" or "aware":

our "democratic" governmentsWhy the quotation marks? WHY? Are you serious? Is the US NOT a democracy / republic??? Is Germany NOT a democracy / republic???? Me thinks you are just acting like a spoiled child that doesn't always get "his" way, thereby the whole system must be false. Hello! A democracy is not about YOU.
What would YOU think is a democracy? Ah. There is no real one, right? Well, then what is your f* point? Still better off living here than in North Korea, Iran or China, no??
You know, I take offense with people who are constantly putting our democracies in quotation marks. Try coming up with something better? But when you do, please also try to keep the number of deaths under a million or so. Because the last people who also put our "democracy" in those damn quotation marks and who were telling people it's all crap, unfortunately FAILED in that.

And what's it with this "wars of aggression"? Well, I would HOPE there is plenty aggression directed against the AGGRESSOR Al Quaida. What is your PROBLEM with hunting down the Talibs and Al Quaida??
I'll leave Iraq to another chapter, but I can't say I felt particularily saddened by seeing the old bastard get it. And I'd wager a guess that neither did the Kurds and a bunch of other folks. Is it that you are really so sad about it, or is it not rather you looking for SS Stormtroopers again, to feel better yourself??? Quick, there might be some under your bed. Maybe you can make another rant against IKEA then.

but now there is proof.Yeah. See above. You people don't need any proof either way. Proof would only get in your way. BTW, there is already an idea emerging on the net now - amongst other "aware" progressives or whatever - that Wikileaks might in reality be...




...*drumrolls*...




...A CIA FRONT. Amazing, isn't it? Before the recent leak, all the Anti-American haters and bigots got all worked up about all the evil and dark secrets of the Darth Vader superpower now being leaked and were already timing the minutes for "America's downfall", lol! Then, when the data that became available didn't support any of their bull**** conspiracy theories - and in cases even would seem to support US foreign policy, or showed that much of what the US says in public is also reflected in their internal communications, albeit more frank - to those nuts it didn't mean to check on the validity of their conspiracy bull****. NOOOOOOOO. It must mean the data is false! It's the CIA again! LOL. Just like when they couldn't fathom that the US might have been viciously attacked on 9/11 by sinister and cynical maniacs and indeed be "the good guys". NOOOOOOOO. It must have been their own government!

Give me break.

[DarkFish]

....



:o

You finished ranting? If you have, you may want to reread his post to see what he actually meant.

[Tribesman]

you may want to reread his post to see what he actually meant.
But that would make the rant nonsense.

[MH]

@heartc
Exellent rant and very to the point.
There are too many peaple that try to be smarter than their grasp of realety or maybe educated above their inteligance.

[Catfish]

Hello heartc,
(would this be Hartzi or Herzi, in german ? :D)

why do (some) US people say that other people "hate" America, or better the USA when there are critics ? Don't the US criticize others from time to time ? Maybe it is concern, not hate. Personally i am glad that the US exists, with all advantages and faults. You cannot have one without the other, but calling a spade a spade is necessary, both sides.

But maybe you want others to shut up just because of their "guilt" ?
I do not feel guilty, i am not a follower of this bible "seven-generations-guilt" thing, and i do not feel "inferior" -

Official sources speak from 151,000 to 650,000 civilians that have died in Iraq since the beginnings of hostilities, so you are technically right, it maybe is not "hundred thousand s" and we could leave the "s" out, if the truth is not somewhere in the middle.
You are also right that those numbers are not from "Wikileaks". If you do not want to refer to killings of civilians, what would you prefer - collateral damage ?


" ... Why the quotation marks? WHY? Are you serious? Is the US NOT a democracy / republic??? Is Germany NOT a democracy / republic???? Me thinks you are just acting like a spoiled child that doesn't always get "his" way, thereby the whole system must be false. Hello! A democracy is not about YOU. ..."

A friend from the US embassy recently told me the US would be no democracy but a constitutional republic ahem lol. But i left out the quotation marks this time. E.g. Germany is not less of a democracy year by year even if it seems so, there are just more reports uncovered every year which show that politicians have parted company with the people. Those reports about a democracy or any government can only be read and judged if there is a medium to publish it. The thing is that with all those weapons, industry and oil/gas lobbyists you cannot clearly divide between politics and industry in Germany anymore, and this gives some reason for distrust - but it is a healthy and democratic distrust.


" ... What would YOU think is a democracy? Ah. There is no real one, right? Well, then what is your f* point? Still better off living here than in North Korea, Iran or China, no??
You know, I take offense with people who are constantly putting our democracies in quotation marks. Try coming up with something better? But when you do, please also try to keep the number of deaths under a million or so. Because the last people who also put our "democracy" in those damn quotation marks and who were telling people it's all crap, unfortunately FAILED in that. ..."

Much better living here i believe, but if governments begin to use means of dictatorships like censorship and cover-ups under the camouflage of security and caring for their people to defend them, but at the same time hide away their methods or justify them by others being the evil, i always have to think of Orwell's "1984". Maybe i exaggerate, point taken.


" ... And what's it with this "wars of aggression"? Well, I would HOPE there is plenty aggression directed against the AGGRESSOR Al Quaida. What is your PROBLEM with hunting down the Talibs and Al Quaida??
I'll leave Iraq to another chapter, but I can't say I felt particularily saddened by seeing the old bastard get it. And I'd wager a guess that neither did the Kurds and a bunch of other folks. Is it that you are really so sad about it, or is it not rather you looking for SS Stormtroopers again, to feel better yourself??? Quick, there might be some under your bed. Maybe you can make another rant against IKEA then. ..."

I have no problem with AlQuaida being hunted, but to invade a whole country because terrorists hide there ? Or another country that had weapons of mass destruction, with a dictator that blew all fuses ? Why not invade North Korea then ? No oil and China ...
If the US had said we're in for the oil and to kick out Saddam hell alright, but why those euphemisms ? I think this has damaged the trust of the people in their government, worldwide (well, Nato-wide).

I did not compare the US troops with the SS, what i said and meant is that there is a fatal similarity in covering up atrocities or the killing of civilians (which are not comparable to the deeds of the SS, but to the covering up of those incidents). This is what does not fit into a democracy, and that this "wikileaks" was able to happen at all is one of the reasons we can call it just that.

Greetings,
Catfish

[joea]

Who else saw this coming?

:know:

[Tribesman]

Exellent rant and very to the point.

The only point was that it made very little sense at all, but that is to be expected from rants.

[MH]

The only point was that it made very little sense at all, but that is to be expected from rants.
Consider this#
If someone makes no sense to you it dosent mean he makes no sense at all.

[Tribesman]

Consider this#

Consider that it contains a whole pile of staple throwaway remarks that are frequently trotted out no matter how much "sense" they make or what they are in response to.

[SteamWake]

Heard the news this morning Wiki's latest US host has pulled the plug on them. They got tired of the cyber attacks.

[Skybird]

Just imagine: Watergate. The revelations in the Washington Post would have been answered by political pressure resulting in newspapers being shut down. What would that have been called?

Meanwhile, the Swedes have renewed their warrant. German media say the arrest of Assange in England, probably London, is imminent. I fear for his future if he falls into the hands of the Swedes.

Wikileaks can be reached under www.wikileaks.ch (http://www.wikileaks.ch) now, they moved on a Swiss site that was reserved by a Swiss pirtate party some months ago.

Latest leaked revelation: When the German government wanted to give 50 million in aid to Afghanistan, the US charged them with a 15% fee-for-nothing and took that money for itself. Nice.

[VipertheSniper]

I just read this opinion piece and I think he makes some good points...

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/01/wikileaks/index.html

[Catfish]

" ... The pressure put on the UK government by the US to allow US forces to secretly store illegal cluster bomb munitions on UK soil, in contravention of the UK's signature on the international treaty banning them from the UK - and the agreement to lie to Parliament about this.

" ... US adminstration organised a secret intelligence operation to spy on the leaders of UN, including gathering personal information about credit cards ..."

" ... The UK government agreed to "protect" the US from damaging revelations at the Chilcott enquiry into the conduct of the Iraq War. [...] under US pressure UK politicians accepted illegal rendition flights out of the UK airbase in Cyprus. ..."

" ... US administration pressurised the Spanish government to close two criminal investigation against US politicians/agents re illegal secret renditions from Spanish territory, and the apparently premeditated killing by US personnel of two Spanish journailists who had made unfavourable reports on US activities in Iraq. ..."


Business as usual - go on, nothing to see here ? :-?
This article describes exactly how every civilized man should see the case:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/01/wikileaks/index.html

Greetings,
Catfish

[Tribesman]

Business as usual - go on, nothing to see here ?
So that shows how they are rejecting democracy accountability and law.
So its nothing really and the public certainly don't have a right to know when they are being lied to and swindled.

[Skybird]

Heard the news this morning Wiki's latest US host has pulled the plug on them. They got tired of the cyber attacks.

This will backfire on the (stupid) idea of cloud computing. Only a fool would externalise his data storage so that foreign powers have access to it, can spy on it if they wish, or can cut him off his own data.

[the_tyrant]

This will backfire on the (stupid) idea of cloud computing. Only a fool would externalise his data storage so that foreign powers have access to it, can spy on it if they wish, or can cut him off his own data.

well the idea of cloud computing isn't that bad, considering that:
1. the files could be encrypted
2.the files could be split in a special way(like raid 0)
3. why can't i store my files on multiple of my own servers?

[Capt Sinbad]

Just imagine: Watergate. The revelations in the Washington Post would have been answered by political pressure resulting in newspapers being shut down. What would that have been called?

Meanwhile, the Swedes have renewed their warrant. German media say the arrest of Assange in England, probably London, is imminent. I fear for his future if he falls into the hands of the Swedes.

Wikileaks can be reached under www.wikileaks.ch (http://www.wikileaks.ch) now, they moved on a Swiss site that was reserved by a Swiss pirtate party some months ago.

Latest leaked revelation: When the German government wanted to give 50 million in aid to Afghanistan, the US charged them with a 15% fee-for-nothing and took that money for itself. Nice.

Long may these leaks continue! All hail Assange:salute:

ps i bet the US is bringing masses of pressure to bear on the my Govt right now, if he is in the UK. Of course none of it will be written down :03:

pps To hell with this special (UK/US) relationship bollox too! It only goes one way

[Skybird]

well the idea of cloud computing isn't that bad, considering that:
1. the files could be encrypted
2.the files could be split in a special way(like raid 0)
3. why can't i store my files on multiple of my own servers?
I thought about issues like "root servers" and "DNS", which are globally controlled by the US, making everybody depedning on them. Also, encrypted or not, if you externalise your data strorage, you can be blocked from having access to them.

For the same reason, a dependency on the good will of a foreign power, Europe started to built the Galileo navigation system in space - to become independent from the GPS which can be switched off by the US whenever it wishes to do so (in case of ongoing military operations, for example).

Meanwhile, the cyberwar rages on. After Amazon kicked Wikileaks off their website and the domain wikileaks.org ha dbeen deleted by EveryDNS, the site moved to Switzerland, where for a short period of time it had been blocked again, but currently is accessible again. Wikileaks also refers to Finland, Germany and Netherlands via Twitter. Paypal has stopped services for Wikileaks. And some extremist US politicians openly call for the assassination of Assange. Assange indicated in return that in case of his death a secret access code could be made public that opens a fileset that already is widely distributed in the web and that includes sensitive data and information on American spy activities and -personell.

The wikileaks-site is available under the DNS-invulnerable direct IP
http://88.80.13.160

Lesson of it all? If we would maintain political systems that are transparent and honest, it would not be possible to accuse said political systems of their misdeeds, lies and misleading of the public. Now those liars that have had their masks ripped off their faces are the ones yelling the loudest.

Well, nobody likes to be caught in the act. When Wikileaks published a small dataset oin a certain detail about German health reforms and how it is set to fail some months ago, the German public did not notice it that much, but some ´German politicians nevertheless demanded draconic penalties for this "treason". That they themselves were the traitors never came to their minds.

[Skybird]

Wikinews-bit of the day:

Washington amused over British paranoia for "special relationship" (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-paranoid-about-special-relationship-us-officials-said-2151052.html)

Big surprise.

[Dowly]

I just read this opinion piece and I think he makes some good points...

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/01/wikileaks/index.html

Thanks! :up: