View Full Version : Dyatlov Pass incident
Heya,
I remember we had small discussion about the incident few years back in another thread, so decided to start own topic for it.
Stumbled upon this (http://www.aquiziam.com/) site last night. Seems to have some pretty good info about it.
Page 1 (http://www.aquiziam.com/dyatlov_pass_1.html) - Overview, purpose of the trip, the skiers and timeline
Page 2 (http://www.aquiziam.com/dyatlov_pass_2.html) - Different theories on what might have happened, observations
Page 3 (http://www.aquiziam.com/dyatlov_pass_answers.html) - Answers to common questions about the incident, clears some of the myths surrounding it
Discuss. :know:
Very cool read!
I think given the number of questions, rather than answers, raised by this, it's kind of hard to come up with a definite answer here. Without those answers, certain theories are just convenient fragments that match up...
Personally, I would lean towards the "Attack by Mansi natives" theory as most rational. I'm not really convinced about the others holding too much merit, and the UFOlogical explaination is just a little too convenient here.
Herr-Berbunch
11-23-10, 10:37 AM
From my brief flick through the site I would guess at one or more went beserk, through the onset of hypothermia (confusion, irrationality and amnesia are just some of the symptoms) or some hallucinogen. This scared the others so much they fled and unfortunately didn't make it very far.
But whether I'm right or not, we'll never know :nope:
AVGWarhawk
11-23-10, 11:06 AM
Very interesting. I would go with the attack Mansi Natives as well. As far as the radioactivity in the area.
I think given the number of questions, rather than answers, raised by this, it's kind of hard to come up with a definite answer here. Without those answers, certain theories are just convenient fragments that match up...
True, mostl likely we'll never know what happened, but it's always nice to see what other people think happened. :yep:
Personally, I would lean towards the "Attack by Mansi natives" theory as most rational. I'm not really convinced about the others holding too much merit, and the UFOlogical explaination is just a little too convenient here.
At first I was leaning towards the avalance theory, but then again (according to the site) there had been no avalances in the area that anyone knew about before or after the incident. Also, the first bodies found were in the surface IIRC, guess they should've been buried under much more snow if it had been an avalance. :hmmm:
From my brief flick through the site I would guess at one or more went beserk, through the onset of hypothermia (confusion, irrationality and amnesia are just some of the symptoms) or some hallucinogen. This scared the others so much they fled and unfortunately didn't make it very far.
I've seen this theory around on other forums discussing the incident. The flaw with it seems to be that the bodies were found together, meaning they fled and stayed as a group (for a short time atleast).
For the military testing and UFO theories, I kind of wonder about...
-The types of injuries are not really something you'd expect from weapons testing - more than anything, they seem like blunt, brute force attacks, and military weapons would not cause that. Likewise, it seems like the injuries are far too random and not incisive enough for any sort of "alien abduction" - it honestly seems that if they were attacked by someone, the intent was to knock out and kill them.
-The radiation evidence is pretty shaky - again, there's questions left about that, but it seems like "trace" amounts found only on a couple of the bodies but not the rest could just be a kind of red herring. In theory, it could be just clothing exposed to radiation in the past. Heck, it might even have had to do with what they did in university, which by the way we also don't know. And we don't even know what kind of radiation it was. However I think it's kind of logical to assume that trace amounts of almost any sort of radiation are probably not that outlandish in normal life.
AVGWarhawk
11-23-10, 11:33 AM
For the military testing and UFO theories, I kind of wonder about...
-The types of injuries are not really something you'd expect from weapons testing - more than anything, they seem like blunt, brute force attacks, and military weapons would not cause that. Likewise, it seems like the injuries are far too random and not incisive enough for any sort of "alien abduction" - it honestly seems that if they were attacked by someone, the intent was to knock out and kill them.
-The radiation evidence is pretty shaky - again, there's questions left about that, but it seems like "trace" amounts found only on a couple of the bodies but not the rest could just be a kind of red herring. In theory, it could be just clothing exposed to radiation in the past. Heck, it might even have had to do with what they did in university, which by the way we also don't know. And we don't even know what kind of radiation it was. However I think it's kind of logical to assume that trace amounts of almost any sort of radiation are probably not that outlandish in normal life.
I would go with this as well. Two fractured skulls. A tongue cut out. Perhaps to silence this person. I would say these people were attacked and herded to a spot. Killed after a while. I think the radiation traces is just there for some good mystery telling.
Read the page 3, it gives answers to many questions.
The tongue wasn't cut nor ripped out, it had decayed.
The radioactive material was found only on one coat and it was only on the surface of it (isotope K40 stuff IIRC without looking).
Well, in light of another big story of the past day - the big stampede in Cambodia - it's also not unreasonable to imagine that this could have been case of irrational panic or violence. It's plausible that at some point in the night, they or one of them were terrified or otherwise provoked by something (be it a jet aircraft or an argument), which resulted in a panic/confusion/derangement. Maybe one of them freaked out and killed the others, but was also fatally injured by one of the other victims in the ensuing incident. Things like that also happen, especially on cold nights in the middle of nowhere - I think more than anything, strange environments like this can really throw people out of rational balance.
Either way, you can't discount psychological phenomena in this, either. The human mind is a strange place and can really throw very strange behaviours into the mix. The fact that this was a group of university students alone in the Urals, at night in the middle of winter speaks volumes about that!
AVGWarhawk
11-23-10, 11:51 AM
We have conflicting stories:
The corpses were discovered at various distances from the camp site and showed little immediate outward sign of injury but on investigation it was discovered that two victims had a fractured skull (one severe), two had broken ribs, and one was missing her tongue
She was missing her tongue. Page 3 link says the tongue was decaying? To me a missing tongue means it was cut out judging by the others in the group that were beaten to death. It was a brutal attack. Normally when the 'aliens' :doh: attack there is precision removal of eyes and internal organs. At least we see that here in the states when animals are mutilated without any reason as to why and by who. Yet in this case we have cracked skulls, broken ribs and missing tongues. Perhaps the tongue was a trophy? One never knows.
Herr-Berbunch
11-23-10, 12:01 PM
I would go with this as well. Two fractured skulls. A tongue cut out. Perhaps to silence this person. I would say these people were attacked and herded to a spot. Killed after a while. I think the radiation traces is just there for some good mystery telling.
The tongue situation is explained on page three - the body was found two months later and the tongue and other mouth cavity parts had been consumed by micro-flora/fauna. I don't think soviet dental hygeine was great.
The people were found in three seperate locations. Those with chest injuries were found in a ravine - a fall is quite enough to explain them. The fractured skulls may have occurred at the same time but the *lucky* recipients strong enough to climb back towards their camp.
The (residual) radioactive material is potassium, and can quite easily be explained as a foodstuff, scientific residue, fire extinguisers (old), livestock feed... the list goes on.
As for UFO, well, maybe it was a US weather balloon launched from somewhere just West of LA :hmmm:
We have conflicting stories:
She was missing her tongue. Page 3 link says the tongue was decaying? To me a missing tongue means it was cut out judging by the others in the group that were beaten to death. It was a brutal attack. Normally when the 'aliens' :doh: attack there is precision removal of eyes and internal organs. At least we see that here in the states when animals are mutilated without any reason as to why and by who. Yet in this case we have cracked skulls, broken ribs and missing tongues. Perhaps the tongue was a trophy? One never knows.
No no no no, we don't have anything conflicting, read the whole thing. :O:
Right, (I say 'right' alot don't I? :doh:) all but the 4 bodies that were found later on were found near the pine tree and between the tree and the camp, all died of hypothermia.
The 4 bodies found later on were in the bottom of a 3-5m ravine, the fall might explain the injuries.
Quotes:
How deep was the ravine in which the final four victims were found? Could a natural fall account for their injuries?
The short answer is the ravine was quite deep and the injuries could have easily been caused by the fall. The following is part of an e-mail from Dr. Vladimir B. (a member of the original rescue team) regarding this point:
“The slope of a ravine had a range of heights from 3 up to 5 m (10m or 17 ft) in the general area where the skiers were found. It had an incline or angle of approximately 30 to 40 degrees. The opposite slope of the ravine was flat. The width of the ravine was approximately 40 metres or 130ft. It is quite possible that the injuries recorded could have been sustained by a “sudden” fall – especially given the fact that these people would have been tired and have had limited visibility."
What are the details of the skull injury experienced by Nicolas Thibeaux-Brignollel? This information alone could go a very long way to solving the mystery. For example, is it an impact injury or a comprehensive pressure injury? Was there retinal detachment? Was he alive or dead when it happened?
This information was apparently very precisely recorded by the Judicial Doctor (Coroner) at the time. He recorded that such a head injury was most likely to have been caused by impact with a rock as a result of a fall from a height of 2 – 3 metres (6 to 10ft) but not more. The reason for this is that impacts of this kind only occur at a velocity of up to 7 – 8 Metres per second. Faster impact speeds generally cause a break (breach) at the apex or arch of the skull with little evident trauma to the base. In the case of Nicolas Thibeaux-Brignollel there was no apex related damage. In addition, the forensic evidence suggests that he was alive when he sustained the injury.
It was almost certainly caused by impact and not pressure. According to our information sources the pressure required to create such an injury would have had to be not less than 1 – 1.5 tons. There was no material or evidence of materials that could have caused this pressure. However, by virtue of the process of dynamics such an injury could easily be sustained through impact.
Finally, there was also no recorded evidence that the injury had been sustained as a result of a concussion blast which would have caused additional physical trauma to the bodies and which was not found on any of the unfortunate individuals involved.
What about the absence of Dubanina’s tongue. Many websites discussing this event claim that it was ripped out. Is this true?
It is true that her tongue and parts of her oral cavity were missing when she was discovered two months after the event. This aspect has led people to see a bizarre aspect to this incident that is wholly unjustified. The reality is that her tongue was not ripped out but was degraded though the activity of micro flora and fauna. We now know that this was fully acknowledged at the time (1959),
AVGWarhawk
11-23-10, 12:06 PM
The branches of cedar, under which they were lying, were broken at a height of about 5 meters. On the trunk of a tree forensic doctors found traces of skin and other tissues. With this evidence it is believed that they climbed the tree and broke off branches until their hands were literally raw.
Possible animal attack. Why climb a tree in the woods unless you are being attacked by the local wildlife? Their hands raw from climbing like mad or slipping as they gave up due to the cold weather.
Dubanina’s head is thrown back with her mouth open just as it was while she took her last dying breath. Her tongue may already be frozen as something rips it, and possibly the lining of her oral cavity, from her body.
Probably local wildlife was helping themselves to the oral cavity. It is not unusual at all for wildlife to eat dead animals or humans for that matter.
I believe the bodies were not found until three months later. That would be plenty of time to cover any tracks made by man or animal. It is quite possible the fractured skulls and broken ribs were a result of falling from trees as they climbed or slipping into the ravines were several were found. A few with broken ribs. The tents ripped up could be accounted for by a bear. These folks possibly just sat a distance away. Either let the bear have at you or let the cold air produce hypothermia and death.
AVGWarhawk
11-23-10, 12:09 PM
No no no no, we don't have anything conflicting, read the whole thing. :O:
I did and quoted same above. Her head thrown back and oral cavity open. I bet my eye tooth that animals were making a meal of this individual or natural decay as stated. Either way the story has been embellished over the years from the looks of it. This simply could have been some sort of wildlife attack.
Whatever the case...each theory is full of holes.
AVGWarhawk
11-23-10, 12:27 PM
Here is something interesting. It is an account of hypothermia and what happened to this individual:
Typical hypothermia. I have had it and as your brain starts to slow down, you start to do unexplainable things. I stood on top of a mountain in 9 degree weather with 40 mph winds and just stared off into space until my slow brain finally said "ummm, might want to skip off for a bit," to which I was finally able to slowly descend. My speech became slurred to unrecognizable and my tongue and fingers stopped working entirely. Not fun but at the time, I do not remember being particularly cold, just really really slow in everything and dazed like I was on painkillers.
Matt W, Greenville, SC
October 29, 2010 1:49pm
So these hikers were possibly scared out of their tents by man, animal or perhaps a avalanche. Once out in the weather with little to wear hypothermia set in. Each became dilusional and wondered about. Some climbed a tree to avoid an animal or avalanche. Others ended in a ravine possibly avoiding the same as those in the tree. Eventually all but a few succumbed to the cold. Others died due to their wounds suffered slipping into a ravine.
Yes, hypothermia makes people act wierd. :yep:
Personally, I don't believe they went "nuts", as is pointed out in various sites they acted pretty rational after they were driven out of the camp. Making fire, climbing a tree possibly to scout the camp or trying to make out where they were (in panic they might have lost direction).
Once the two who left the pine tree towards the camp failed to return and some of the rest being already dead or dying, the remaining 4 deemed the camp unsafe and started to wander deeper into the woods in hopes to find either another group or a shelter, but ended up falling into the ravine in the dark. :hmmm:
AVGWarhawk
11-23-10, 12:51 PM
I'm really thinking the entire incident was mishap after mishap. What initially started the hikers to spook and run remains a mystery to me. I read some believe CO levels inside the enclosed tents began the process of dilusional thinking. This lead to abandoning the camp thus allowing hypothermia to take it's toll mentally. There is a lot of irrational thinking going on and this is easily explained by hypothermia.
Daleks!!! Sorry, couldn't resist!
Did not know this incident and mystery, it gives me shivers down the spine.
CO levels inside the enclosed tents began the process of dilusional thinking. This lead to abandoning the camp thus allowing hypothermia to take it's toll mentally
And how about something ingested, that could trigger the first dilusional thinking.
PS: Well, the second page refers The Toxic Snow Theory but was not quite what I thought
Castout
11-23-10, 06:54 PM
Only skimmed through the pages interesting read I must say.
For our russian speaking members I found this site:
http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/
Seems to be alot of stuff there, including maps and what not.
Lots of photos too from either the rescue team or from the camera the team had with them that was found:
http://www.infodjatlov.narod.ru/foto.htm
Interesting stuff on the Russian site! Again, as with the English site, it raises a lot more questions than answers. One of the versions I read, the possibility that this was caused by testing of at least three "volume" (i.e. fuel-air?) bombs in the general area actually has some pretty interesting/compelling things going for it, particularly in terms of an alternate timeline (suggesting that the whole thing in fact took place not at night but in the morning, by daylight) and explanation for the group's behaviour as in fact totally rational (leaving the tent for lower ground after having it brought down on their heads by the first blast) and the injuries received being mostly non-fatal in themselves (consistent with what a pressure wave and being tossed into solid objects such as tree branches would cause) but enough to make surviving the cold without help impossible. It also suggests that the ones that died from injuries were in fact blasted into the ravine while trying to escape.
Not sure if I entirely buy it since there's obviously too many open questions, but also not an irrational one, surprisingly enough.
gimpy117
11-23-10, 08:21 PM
Panic. The group mentality. I would bet somebody got spooked and the group followed suit. This fits the avalanche theory. Maybe somebody thought the whole mountian was coming down on them and got panicked. Instead of thinking, the flight instinct came into play. They were probably so convinced that there was going to be an avalanche that they ran for the woods, in hopes to find cover behind the trees. when they heard nothing, they probably climbed that tree to see if there were signs of either an impending incident, or one that had already occurred. but by now ti was too late, and they died trying to get back to shelter.
Gargamel
11-24-10, 03:07 AM
Possible animal attack. Why climb a tree in the woods unless you are being attacked by the local wildlife? Their hands raw from climbing like mad or slipping as they gave up due to the cold weather.
Or if a second jet is passing and you think another avalanche is about to bury you, it'd give you reason to scramble up a tree real quick and try to hang on real tight.
AVGWarhawk
11-24-10, 03:19 PM
Or if a second jet is passing and you think another avalanche is about to bury you, it'd give you reason to scramble up a tree real quick and try to hang on real tight.
Good point! :up:
Krauter
11-25-10, 02:09 AM
Possible animal attack. Why climb a tree in the woods unless you are being attacked by the local wildlife? Their hands raw from climbing like mad or slipping as they gave up due to the cold weather.
Probably local wildlife was helping themselves to the oral cavity. It is not unusual at all for wildlife to eat dead animals or humans for that matter.
I believe the bodies were not found until three months later. That would be plenty of time to cover any tracks made by man or animal. It is quite possible the fractured skulls and broken ribs were a result of falling from trees as they climbed or slipping into the ravines were several were found. A few with broken ribs. The tents ripped up could be accounted for by a bear. These folks possibly just sat a distance away. Either let the bear have at you or let the cold air produce hypothermia and death.
If it was an animal attack/scavenger, why was only one person attacked/scavenged from? From what I gather the people died in groups (in the ravine, by the pine tree and on their way to the tent respectively). If it was bears, fox, etc, wouldn't they take a piece out of the entire group (more to take...?)
If it was an animal attack/scavenger, why was only one person attacked/scavenged from? From what I gather the people died in groups (in the ravine, by the pine tree and on their way to the tent respectively). If it was bears, fox, etc, wouldn't they take a piece out of the entire group (more to take...?)
Not to mention bite marks, which weren't reported.
Also, IIRC (not 100% sure), there was very little external marks of injury except for Dubinina's missing tongue. :hmmm:
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