North and South Korea are at it again

[wamphyri]

SEOUL, South Korea — North Korea shot dozens of rounds of artillery onto a populated South Korean island near their disputed western border Tuesday, military officials said, setting buildings on fire and prompting South Korea to return fire and scramble fighter jets.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/23/north-korea-attacks-south-korea_n_787294.html

[Gargamel]

/facepalm

I mean seriously..... wtf?

I know they're still technically still at war and all, but c'mon, shelling a presumably innocent village for no reason?

[antikristuseke]

/facepalm

I mean seriously..... wtf?

I know they're still technically still at war and all, but c'mon, shelling a presumably innocent village for no reason?

Welcome to warfare.

[darius359au]

So the north Koreans show a U.S Scientist their latest uranium enrichment plant ,then a few days later they shell a south Korean village!,some how I don't think its a coincidence - I'm waiting to see what the Norths going to demand now.

[NeonSamurai]

Oh no doubt something totally unreasonable, bordering on totally bat<censored> crazy. But with the US overextended militarily, and the EU frankly being almost spineless when it comes to war (like most of the western world), NK knows it will get away with it.

[TarJak]

It's not the first time and no doubt it won't be the last. Let's hope they can keep a lid on it and not allow it to escalate into something nobody wants to contemplate.:nope:

[papa_smurf]

Now North Korea are saying the South fired first, and this was in apparent retaliation.
NK knows it will get away with it.

Not quite, as even the Chinese are calling for more talks between the 2 countries.

[Hottentot]

Can't really envy South Korea. Seems to me they won't start any serious hostilities because they don't have anything to win, yet much to lose. And I'm not even talking about casualties or possibility of the North Koreans starting a guerilla war. In the long run getting rid of a nation like North Korea would probably be the best for all, but it's difficult to justify the price of it with abstract altruistic long term goals.

And it's not like the North wouldn't know this :nope:.

[the_tyrant]

in china we have a joke: south korea shall win the war with McDonalds
but really, in north and south Korea unite the strain on the south's economy is huge

[CCIP]

in china we have a joke: south korea shall win the war with McDonalds
but really, in north and south Korea unite the strain on the south's economy is huge

Well, people have said that of the two Germanies back in the day; it certainly turned out to be very true, but in the end the reunified country more or less coped with it. I think from incidents like this, South Korea would agree that reunifying would be better than living with these wackos in power to the North.

Man, they're really off their chain this time, aren't they...

[Armistead]

I bet Bush got a hard on last night.....

Oh, only if Sarah Palin were President...:haha:

Well, NK wants something and we'll give it to them....

Not sure about all the end times stuff, but damn starting to wonder. Seems this worlds gonna bring it on itself in 20 years or less..Gonna go study that Mayan Calendar and run by the dent can store and stock up.

[Tribesman]

Oh, only if Sarah Palin were President...
yeah we need someone to step up to the mark and teach those North Karolinians a lesson.
Though I think she might just quit half way through the invasion.

[Rockstar]

Reports I saw indicated South Korea was engaged in live fire exercises nearby. Said missiles were fired but went west not north but it didn't say where exactly. Unfortunately the North used it as an excuse for a trigger happy response. What an mess this is.

[Oberon]

Yeonpyeong island...why oh why am I not surprised? After the Cheonan I guess this was inevitable. They're getting bold now because they know they can get away with it, and Yeonpyeong is slap bang (pardon the expression) off the coast of the DPRK, no more than...what...twelve clicks from the shores of North Korea? Prime target.

[TLAM Strike]

I read that the South Korean defense minister is in talks with the US to bring back tactical nukes to the Korean Peninsula. :hmmm:

[Oberon]

Bring back, eh? :hmmm: Nice little slip there.

[Castout]

I read that the South Korean defense minister is in talks with the US to bring back tactical nukes to the Korean Peninsula. :hmmm:

That talk already began before the shelling attack.

[gimpy117]

If things don't change fast i think war is coming.

and im 19 im elliagable for the draft...:o

[CCIP]

I still wonder what the North's game is this time. They can't honestly think that war would be to their advantage now, can they? They have no chance whatsoever to survive as a regime, unless they can reliably count on China to bail them out or at least back them up when push comes to shove. And honestly, I just can't see China stepping in to defend them in the current climate. NK is really not worth much to them now in the big scope of things.

So what's the game? What do they know that we don't when they end up with an incident that is not only politically oh-so-close to all out war, but LOOKS like real war in Korea, complete with smoking buildings and explosions in civilian areas of the South? I honestly don't believe that the DPRK leaders are as crazy as some would like them to think.

[Gorduz]

What would it take to get China involved in a war on the south korean side. And a bit more scary on a north korean side.

[Takeda Shingen]

I still wonder what the North's game is this time. They can't honestly think that war would be to their advantage now, can they? They have no chance whatsoever to survive as a regime, unless they can reliably count on China to bail them out or at least back them up when push comes to shove. And honestly, I just can't see China stepping in to defend them in the current climate. NK is really not worth much to them now in the big scope of things.

So what's the game? What do they know that we don't when they end up with an incident that is not only politically oh-so-close to all out war, but LOOKS like real war in Korea, complete with smoking buildings and explosions in civilian areas of the South? I honestly don't believe that the DPRK leaders are as crazy as some would like them to think.

Ultimately, I think that North Korea's game can be summed up as smack-talk with guns. They want to make it look like they want a war without actually wanting to go to war. 'We're big, we're tough, we're not afraid of you, respect us' is the message. It's a ridiculous message to send, but stupidity has never stopped them before.

[Castout]

It's not stupidity it's taking calculated risk on the presumption that the South is not so eager to retaliate in full scale war and the fact that US economy and military are under strain hence the hesitancy to commit a new war to support her allies.

South Korea reacted weakly to the Cheonan sinking and they knew it was a clear message that the South would not risk war even to their small detriment hence this small island target. And if the South kept its usual way of reacting which is mainly media wars and stern bluffing the North will exploit this further betting that the South being so reluctant to commit to war when US is under strain economically and militarily.

One thing we need to appreciate of the North leadership is that they are not the type of cowardly bullies that some other nation leaders are. They struck at their strong enemy. To me that needs to be commended. And in all cases it's them who hold the initiative prompting the South to be reactionary all the time and making South Korea leadership and the west to appear weak and stupid. Why this is so is because while the South is trying to merely maintain her strong economy the North is fighting for her survival.

[Ducimus]

From what i read, the shelling ranges from 100 rounds to 200 rounds of artillery fire. That is significant. The DPRK wrote the book on brinkmanship. They're really pushing the envelope this time. I do wonder what their game is this time, but that said, this time, I think the possibility of the the cease fire ending, has never been greater. (except maybe the tree incident)

[Ducimus]

If things don't change fast i think war is coming.

and im 19 im elliagable for the draft...:o

That'll never happen. Our politicians are too spineless to make decisions and are only concerned about being re elected. Enacting the draft will end their re election possiblities.

What will happen, is the armed force in general will implent (again), the stop-loss program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-loss_policy), activate more reserve units, and tap into the IRR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Ready_Reserve) again.

(edit: FYI, if you sign up for 4 years active duty, your contract obligation is really for 8 years. The 4 inactive years are spent as IRR. You go back to civilian life, but can be called upon if the crap hits the fan. In which case... back in uniform you go! You weren't issued a civilian job or wife after all! )

War or no war, you have nothing to worry about.

[nikimcbee]

@Duc,
I'm interested in your insite regarding all of this, as you mentioned you served in Korea. :know:

[Ducimus]

@Duc,
I'm interested in your insite regarding all of this, as you mentioned you served in Korea. :know:

Honestly, i tend to have a grunts eye view of things. Particuarly in things like politics or international relations. I can tell you what living South korea is like. I can tell you how much their dug in and how well prepared they are. I can tell you the korea's have been playing "reindeer games" and "tit for tat" for a long time.. to ridiculous levels. But if your looking for a poltiical analysis of the current situation, my thoughts are no better then anyone elses.

[the_tyrant]

since this is bound to appear anyways:
even north korea knows that Obama is weak.


the us government is currently in a poor state to react anyways
and the south korean forces could not expect to beat north korea in an all out war.
Therefore, Kim Jiong Il could use the opportunity to provoke the south to gain political leverage. It would be harder for North Korea to do this when there is a firmer pro-military US administration

Also, there is a rumor that Kim Jiong il is dead or is currently about to die.

[CCIP]

From what i read, the shelling ranges from 100 rounds to 200 rounds of artillery fire.

Yeah, the BBC is reporting 50 hits on the island and 80 shells fired by the ROK in return. Initially, from what I read, shells coming from the North also landed in the water (now, makes you wonder - is their aim really that bad, or may they have been shooting at something there?). So that's indeed a rather large number.

[Raptor1]

and the south korean forces could not expect to beat north korea in an all out war.


I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially if it's the DPRK that is on the offensive.

[the_tyrant]

Yeah, the BBC is reporting 50 hits on the island and 80 shells fired by the ROK in return. Initially, from what I read, shells coming from the North also landed in the water (now, makes you wonder - is their aim really that bad, or may they have been shooting at something there?). So that's indeed a rather large number.

They are shooting with 50s equipment that hasn't been well maintained for too long. So i guess its acceptable, since North Korea is aiming at targets near water

[the_tyrant]

I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially if it's the DPRK that is on the offensive.

remember, its Kim Jiong il over there
he will not be reluctant to use nukes(unlikely), biological weapons(likely), or poison gas(most likely) on the battlefield

[CCIP]

I wouldn't be so sure about that, especially if it's the DPRK that is on the offensive.

Agreed, I think the ROK themselves are a force to reckon with these days. Their real question is not whether they can win even on their own - I think they're undoubtedly the more capable of the two Koreas. Their question is "at what cost?" - and the North is operating not so much on military superiority here as on unacceptable human, political and economic costs of the war to the South. They would win a war, but at the cost of turning from a mini-powerhouse on the world stage into more or less a third world country. And just the sheer amount of artillery aimed at Seoul, a world megapolis by any standard, would be as devastating as it would be completely unstoppable - even if that first artillery exchange only lasted as long as today's but with all barrels blazing before getting silenced, billions in damage and tens of thousands of casualties would result.

Also, while NBC weapons might be readily used, these are not militarily very valuable these days - i.e. they wouldn't do the damage to the South's forces so much as the civilian population. The ROK army is more than prepared to deal with the NBC threat and wouldn't be prevented by it from beating the DPRK on the battlefield.

And speaking about 50s artillery, I'm not so sure even 50s technology would be off at all like that. Guns haven't become any more accurate in that period, the only difference since has been really in spotting and coordination technology. But having held those positions since the 50s, I think the Northern guns would have their ranges known and marked very precisely... Especially given the emphasis the DPRK seems to place on their artillery capabilities. Thus me wondering.

[Ducimus]

the south korean forces could not expect to beat north korea in an all out war.


I HIGHLY doubt that. The south is WELL prepared, and has been for some time. I don't think anyone there has forgotten that during the war, they were pushed all the way to Pusan, and the country reflects it over the entire length of the penninsula.

edit:
remember, its Kim Jiong il over there
he will not be reluctant to use nukes(unlikely), biological weapons(likely), or poison gas(most likely) on the battlefield

Again, the south is well prepared. The likelyhood of NBC is not lost on USFK, or the ROK military. I never "sucked rubber" at mopp 4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOPP) more then when i was in korea.
edit: Come to think of it, my first time in a gas chamber was in Korea. lol.

[Raptor1]

nukes(unlikely)

They most likely don't have anything that could be used tactically, especially not in any large quantity. We don't even know for sure they can actually put nukes on missiles yet.

biological weapons(likely)

If they have them and are willing to use them. And we still don't know how effective they would be.

or poison gas(most likely) on the battlefield

I wonder how effective these would be against a modern army which is prepared to counter them. Not very, I bet...

[the_tyrant]

And speaking about 50s artillery, I'm not so sure even 50s technology would be off at all like that. Guns haven't become any more accurate in that period, the only difference since has been really in spotting and coordination technology. But having held those positions since the 50s, I think the Northern guns would have their ranges known and marked very precisely... Especially given the emphasis the DPRK seems to place on their artillery capabilities. Thus me wondering.

but remember, north korean equipment lacks maintenance and spare parts
after 60 years, i don't really expect those guns to still work

Though if we are thinking about this realistically, I would bet on south korea.
Since Kim Jim Il maintains his rule by telling his citizens how much worse the south is compared to them.
When the North's armies march into south korea, they would realize that the government rules them using lies, and a large amount of north korean rank and file solders would probably defect

[TLAM Strike]

And just the sheer amount of artillery aimed at Seoul... Very few guns are aimed at Seoul. The DPRK has only one type of arty tube (the 170mm) that can reach Seoul from the DMZ. Their are only 17 hardened arty sites known to be within range of Seoul and capable of staging the 170mms. At these sites their are about 120 firing positions. That is not exactly a lot of targets to bomb or shell.


The real threat would be from Scud type missiles, but the ROK isn't exactly defenseless against those.

[CCIP]

Very few guns are aimed at Seoul. The DPRK has only one type of arty tube (the 170mm) that can reach Seoul from the DMZ. Their are only 17 hardened arty sites known to be within range of Seoul and capable of staging the 170mms. At these sites their are about 120 firing positions. That is not exactly a lot of targets to bomb or shell.


The real threat would be from Scud type missiles, but the ROK isn't exactly defenseless against those.

Really? Interesting, I had the opposite impression... I thought a lot of Seoul, or at least its northern suburbs, were well within the reach of the run-of-the-mill DPRK 155mm artillery at least. At least it was my perception that the arty was the North's trump in this, as opposed to missiles.

the_tyrant: well now, considering the North can build and export (relatively) sophisticated missiles, I think you're not giving enough credit to their ability to maintain the very basic, cheap and rugged Soviet howitzers that form the bulk of their artillery.

[the_tyrant]

the_tyrant: well now, considering the North can build and export (relatively) sophisticated missiles, I think you're not giving enough credit to their ability to maintain the very basic, cheap and rugged Soviet howitzers that form the bulk of their artillery.

You do have a point, i'm not sure about the state of those guns
Ill come back later after i do some research on the topic

[Raptor1]

And just the sheer amount of artillery aimed at Seoul, a world megapolis by any standard, would be as devastating as it would be completely unstoppable - even if that first artillery exchange only lasted as long as today's but with all barrels blazing before getting silenced, billions in damage and tens of thousands of casualties would result.


I doubt it. First of all, the majority of the North Korean army guns simply lack the range to actually hit Seoul from any point behind the DMZ. Then, of those guns that can hit Seoul, many of them would probably not be in a place where they could actually hit it from, unless they're concentrated specifically for that task. Now, if they actually start bombarding Seoul with everything they can, they'll quickly lose guns that aren't in hardened sites to aerial interdiction and counterbattery fire, leaving them with even less power to hurt the city. Also, don't forget that the DPRK only gains anything from the threat of bombarding Seoul, they don't actually gain anything (And lose their ability to use the long range artillery in more useful tasks) from bombarding it in a war.

Now, they can do some damage with artillery and tactical ballistic missiles, but not nearly as much as it's usually made out to be.

EDIT: Ah, TLAM beat me to it.

[CCIP]

My mistake then, I should do my research as well. I always reckoned that the number of guns able to do a lot of damage to civilian areas within the Seoul area (if not central Seoul) was uh... let's just say a lot more than 120 barrels, by several orders of magnitude! :88)

Still, I think the political implications still stand - it might not be Seoul by artillery as such, but there is pretty massive destruction that the North could cause in the first few minutes and hours of a conflict to the South's population and economy.

[Rockstar]

Well what do have to go on so far? Nobody starts throwing grenades just for grins.

Maybe something to do with a G20 meeting in Seoul? Who has the least to gain from that meeting?

Again me thinks it's China via it's little helper making it known to other Asian nations the U.S. is no longer the strong protector it once was. Making China the regional power in the neighborhood and not the U.S. Especially when I consider how strained the U.S. is, what better time to make a power play?

What about NK military personnel provoking a war to end North Korean leadership?

Just thinking...

[TLAM Strike]

Really? Interesting, I had the opposite impression... I thought a lot of Seoul, or at least its northern suburbs, were well within the reach of the run-of-the-mill DPRK 155mm artillery at least. At least it was my perception that the arty was the North's trump in this, as opposed to missiles.

The Northern most part of Seoul's suburbs are within range of the 170mms, Goyang is prob within range of the 130mms (Their longest range gun besides the 170mm but not the biggest) and MLRS, but the DPRK can't hope to hit downtown Seoul except with Scuds or airstrikes.

Its also doubtful all 120 sites are for just the 170mm guns. Some have been seen with MLRS. North Korea might not even have 120 of the guns, but I've found no evidence either way on that.

[CCIP]

What about NK military personnel provoking a war to end North Korean leadership?

Just thinking...

Well, the tensions involving the North Korean military ranks vs. the political leadership are inevitably involved in this. Some of the speculation says that this could be Little Kim flexing his muscle to show to the hardline military brass that he will not take a soft line with the South. This could well be a show for their benefit - I think it's no secret that the military is quite hard-line and the rare political/dynastic succession needs to be almost inevitably accompanied by a proof-of-toughness by the successor in the eyes of the military.

[Rockstar]

I forgot to add that one, but yes you're correct and most likely one of the reasons.

[CCIP]

The Northern most part of Seoul's suburbs are within range of the 170mms, Goyang is prob within range of the 130mms (Their longest range gun besides the 170mm but not the biggest) and MLRS, but the DPRK can't hope to hit downtown Seoul except with Scuds or airstrikes.

Its also doubtful all 120 sites are for just the 170mm guns. Some have been seen with MLRS. North Korea might not even have 120 of the guns, but I've found no evidence either way on that.

Just out of curiosity, how many 130mm guns do they have possibly available there? And what sort of MLRS systems are we talking about?

I don't doubt, by the way, that whatever the type and number, the North would lose all meaningful artillery capability at the DMZ very quickly should a conflict start anyway. Heck, they'd probably lose most if not almost all of it within the first hour. But it's those opening salvos that I always reckoned to be a real danger to the South.

[Castout]

I think North has a lot of scuds that's capable of reaching Seoul if I'm not mistaken . . . . and if they able to armed it with nuclear . . .

[CCIP]

I think North has a lot of scuds that's capable of reaching Seoul if I'm not mistaken . . . . and if they able to armed it with nuclear . . .

I think it's fairly safe to say that the North is probably nowhere near having either a reliable or a small enough nuclear warhead to be fit on a missile properly (their last "fizzle" test is definitely an indication). I don't think this is going to be a danger for at least a few years ahead; for now they're likely stuck with very large and therefore mostly undeliverable nukes (except possibly by bomber).

[Raptor1]

Just out of curiosity, how many 130mm guns do they have possibly available there? And what sort of MLRS systems are we talking about?

I don't doubt, by the way, that whatever the type and number, the North would lose all meaningful artillery capability at the DMZ very quickly should a conflict start anyway. Heck, they'd probably lose most if not almost all of it within the first hour. But it's those opening salvos that I always reckoned to be a real danger to the South.

Don't know how many of the 130mm guns they have (Doubt it's possible to find anything beyond estimates), but the MLRS systems they field seem to be mostly copies of the BM-21 and some variants of a similar self-designed 240mm system.

[Ducimus]

The real threat would be from Scud type missiles, but the ROK isn't exactly defenseless against those.

No they aren't. I know, because my red horse unit built up the areas those defenses sit. I won't say anymore then that. Point is, im quite sure scud's would be taken care of.

[CCIP]

What's the stance of the US forces over there these days? If there is a sudden "major escalation", e.g. a full-on exchange of fire across the DMZ, can we assume that US assets in theater will be immediately committed alongside the ROK, or is that something that's gonna develop slowly? Are they still technically Combined Forces?

[Oberon]

It's still a joint op, it was going to split in April 2012, but they've pushed it back to 2015.

If Kim comes over the border, what's left of him will be hit hard by US and ROK forces. As I was saying on another forum earlier today, I would be very surprised if any DPRK advance got further than Seoul. They have the manpower yes, but their equipment is terrible, morale is terrible and tactics are terrible.

The question is not can we beat Kim, but how far should we go? Do we drive them all the way back to Pyongyang and risk China stepping in? Or do we do a deal with China in which we stop at the DMZ and let China come in from the North under the guise of 'protecting' the DPRK but in reality to do a spot of regime rearranging?

[CCIP]

The question is not can we beat Kim, but how far should we go? Do we drive them all the way back to Pyongyang and risk China stepping in? Or do we do a deal with China in which we stop at the DMZ and let China come in from the North under the guise of 'protecting' the DPRK but in reality to do a spot of regime rearranging?

I think a lot of it will depend on the costs involved. If he can do serious long-term damage to the South's economy before being driven back, it will be a big blow to the ROK if that doesn't go along with the Kim problem being solved for good. I think a lot of the current status quo works on the fact that Kim's regime recognize that they cannot attack the South, seriously damage it and get away with it. But they can and do get away with the occasional scuffle, which the South cannot afford to escalate either. In some sense, the status quo right now is paradoxically the best thing that the two sides can hope for. The ROK gets to keep its economy running and Kim gets his concessions. No other solution, even a totally peaceful one, will keep both sides happier right now, sad as it is.

[yubba]

OMG, North vs South. Spy vs Spy, East vs West, when will it end ? I know when they ,who ever they, think they are, those who decide they are the rulers of the new world order, that think 2 thirds of us should die so that we don't suck up thier perious air. Question where do you fit in those thirds ? By the way bone up on your chinesse. Death by a thousand cuts, so what will Iran do ? TSA, Thousands Standing Around.

[seanobrgp]

Not to divert the discussion away from military deployments and armaments, but I had some thoughts on the context of the situation that might be relevant. Of course, I'm only a college student and hardly an expert, so take my reading for what it's worth.

North Korea isn't as inscrutable as their reputation might suggest, but I feel the most important question arising out of the attack on Yeonpyeong is one we'll never have an answer to. Was the military acting of its own volition or were they given the consent of the Kim family? If the latter, then North Korea is continuing its practice of using external actions to further its internal narrative. The destruction of the Cheonan, for example, solidified the regime in the wake of its disastrous currency revaluation, and given their increasingly dire economic situation, they probably expected us to start a dialogue without requiring them to undertake verifiable nuclear disarmament. However, I think it's also plausible that the military is flaunting its independence as we close in on Kim Jong-un's ascent to power, and such a prospect would have serious ramifications for the entire region and the future of North Korea.

In the aftermath of the Cheonan incident, but before the evidence of his culpability was made public, Kim Jong-il made a visit to China, where everyone thought that he was requesting additional military and humanitarian assistance. If he or a high profile delegation are seen in China in the next month, I'd interpret that as a state endorsement of what occured. If no such visit is forthcoming, it could indicate fragmentation amongst the establishment -- or nothing at all. Such is the nature of North Korea.

Officially, the North Korean government is an institutional triumvirate: Choe Yong-rim is the country's premier and head of a Cabinet comprised of officials chosen by the elected Supreme People's Assembly. The Presidium Standing Committee of that Assembly has the authority to legislate when the body is not in session (it almost never is), and there is a judiciary of some form, though I don't believe it's ever been relevant. In actual practice, all of the power in the country is concentrated in the military establishment and Kim Jong-il's National Defense Commission, but I think it's important to remember that this is a rather new development in North Korean internal affairs. It wasn't until 1992 that the Commission was separated from the President's direct control, principally to allow Kim Jong-il, then serving as head of the Army, to oversee the entire military, and only the 1998 constitution made it an independent extension of the state endowed with executive authority accountable to no one. Though it may have been essential to maintaining the Eternal Leader's legacy, Kim Jong-il has only been a titular head of the Korean Worker's Party since 1997, never sought to proclaim himself President or establish any substantial political office, and his most intimate advisor -- the only man with his ear -- is O Kuk-Ryol, the military's most prominent figure. While everyone in the country is implicitly subordinate to him, Jong-il never made any effort to expand beyond the sphere of influence he was accorded while preparing to succeed his father; he simply re-defined the government to facilitate the military's preeminence, and I think that has made rule by anyone outside of it nearly impossible.

The tacit significance of the 3rd Party Congress and Jong-un's unveiling in September, then, may have been that Kim Jong-il intended to revive North Korea's much neglected political apparatus and shift the balance back to them. Kim Jong-un can lead North Korea as an ideologue on name alone, and by crediting him with pioneering CNC industrial efforts, declaring his birthday a national holiday, and portraying him publicly as the enigmatic heir to the family's legacy, they are already well on their way to accomplishing that. But Kim Jong-il must also be aware that the military won't accept Jong-un as a suitable replacement, so he has appointed Jang Song-thaek, his brother-in-law and a consummate party insider who endured a purge earlier this decade, as Vice Chairman of the National Defense Commission. The intent is probably for Jang to serve as Jong-un's prince regent, bridging the gap between the country's political and military institutions until Jong-un can assert his independence and define his own style of leadership.

If Kim Jong-il has been unable to coalesce these interests, compensating for Jong-un's numerous inadequacies and transitioning the country away from strident military rule, then succession is imperiled and some form of insurrection is probably inevitable. But this is all conjecture: we only hear what North Korea wants us to hear, and if there are elements bristling at the prospect of another Kim, we won't know until they take distinguishable action. The Yeonpyeong incident could have been the first external sign of a fracture within the regime, an attempt to resuscitate diplomatic negotiations, or both. If Jong-il was attempting to stabilize the internal dynamic to allow for Jong-un's rise, it not only suggests that Jong-il isn't politically adept, but has to cast doubt on whether Jong-un will be allowed to come to power at all.

[Platapus]

Kinda makes one think about what the South Koreans have on Yeonpyeong island. :hmm2:

[the_tyrant]

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_JtwOU3H9KQM/TOxf6_ijl0I/AAAAAAAAAWA/xuJGTT_eez0/s720/1029181923ffa6804aedbc88.jpg

my estimates (battle for Seoul) assuming North Korea attacks first, using 2000 forces:
First phase (red lines) 0-10 hours: are the first wave of North Korean attacks. Localized breakthroughs could be achieved, but no significant progress by the north Korean armies. North Korean artillery would cause a certain amount of damage to Seoul. However, the majority of North Korean guns would be destroyed by air-strikes and counter-battery fire.

Second phase (blue lines) 10-24 hours: South Korean localized counter attack. South Korean strategic reserves are used. Reserves and militia are mobilized. At the end of this phase, south Korean forces would dig in at the green line

Third phase (brown lines) 24-96 hours: South Korean forces would take back and restore prewar positions. American forces start to arrive. Both sides dig into their prewar defense lines, creating a short-lived stalemate. South Korea destroys most of the North's air power. Continued air strikes would cause damage to North Korean Forces

Forth Phase (black lines) after 96 hours: South Korea drive into North Korea with assistance from international forces


what do you guys think?

[Platapus]

You forgot the part where the South Koreans will be greeted as liberators. :up:

Hey, it worked for us... kinda. :oops:

[the_tyrant]

You forgot the part where the South Koreans will be greeted as liberators. :up:

Hey, it worked for us... kinda. :oops:

of course, South Korea would win the war with hamburgers:up:

[TLAM Strike]

Just out of curiosity, how many 130mm guns do they have possibly available there? And what sort of MLRS systems are we talking about?

I don't doubt, by the way, that whatever the type and number, the North would lose all meaningful artillery capability at the DMZ very quickly should a conflict start anyway. Heck, they'd probably lose most if not almost all of it within the first hour. But it's those opening salvos that I always reckoned to be a real danger to the South.

I'll have to direct such questions to the great piece written by my comrade:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes!-%282009%29 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?162240-Bluffer-s-Guide-North-Korea-strikes%21-%282009%29)



http://lh3.ggpht.com/_JtwOU3H9KQM/TOxf6_ijl0I/AAAAAAAAAWA/xuJGTT_eez0/s720/1029181923ffa6804aedbc88.jpg

my estimates (battle for Seoul) assuming North Korea attacks first, using 2000 forces:
First phase (red lines) 0-10 hours: are the first wave of North Korean attacks. Localized breakthroughs could be achieved, but no significant progress by the north Korean armies. North Korean artillery would cause a certain amount of damage to Seoul. However, the majority of North Korean guns would be destroyed by air-strikes and counter-battery fire.

Second phase (blue lines) 10-24 hours: South Korean localized counter attack. South Korean strategic reserves are used. Reserves and militia are mobilized. At the end of this phase, south Korean forces would dig in at the green line

Third phase (brown lines) 24-96 hours: South Korean forces would take back and restore prewar positions. American forces start to arrive. Both sides dig into their prewar defense lines, creating a short-lived stalemate. South Korea destroys most of the North's air power. Continued air strikes would cause damage to North Korean Forces

Forth Phase (black lines) after 96 hours: South Korea drive into North Korea with assistance from international forces


what do you guys think?

Not sure if the North would even be able to advance that far. With US and ROK battlefield surveillance being what it is any large mechanized force will just stand out and draw fire. Remember the Highway of Death? US/ROK aircraft flying above 12,000 feet will have almost free reign since most North Korean SAM systems are compromised since former WP nations joined NATO. Even the much vaunted S-300. If you can't control the skys armor is toast. Forget about the KPAF, they have only about 35 Fulcrums in service, the rest are MiG 17-23. I wonder how many aces the blue team are going to have on day 1? Especally if the US commits Raptors out of Guam right off the bat.


Just read on ID today that we have 5 CSGs and 2 ARGs within up to 9 days travel of Korean waters right now... :hmmm:

[krashkart]

If things don't change fast i think war is coming.

and im 19 im elliagable for the draft...:o


Whatever you do, don't run to Canada or you'll end up looking like Ike from Southpark. Go to college instead. Or Newfoundland. :D

[the_tyrant]

Not sure if the North would even be able to advance that far. With US and ROK battlefield surveillance being what it is any large mechanized force will just stand out and draw fire. Remember the Highway of Death? US/ROK aircraft flying above 12,000 feet will have almost free reign since most North Korean SAM systems are compromised since former WP nations joined NATO. Even the much vaunted S-300. If you can't control the skys armor is toast. Forget about the KPAF, they have only about 35 Fulcrums in service, the rest are MiG 17-23. I wonder how many aces the blue team are going to have on day 1? Especally if the US commits Raptors out of Guam right off the bat.

I guess it would take at least 10 hours for the US for formulate and execute a plan in order to delay North Korean forces

If North Korea sneak attacks, than i guess it would take North Korea maybe 2 hours to break through (nor sure though) certain points on the South Korean fortifications.
After that maybe North Korean forces could advance 4-20km per hour.

Now i have made 2 assumptions that may not be correct:
because of the geographical location, i assumed that South Korea's defense line is a point defense system. and not defense in depth
also, i assumed if North Korea concentrates forces that focuse on penetrating certain portions on the defense line, North Korea could break through. Of course, this might not happen
Also,

[TLAM Strike]

I guess it would take at least 10 hours for the US for formulate and execute a plan in order to delay North Korean forces I assume we have plans on the shelf for any type of North Korean attack. Otherwise what are we paying the Pentagon for?

If North Korea sneak attacks, than i guess it would take North Korea maybe 2 hours to break through (nor sure though) certain points on the South Korean fortifications.
After that maybe North Korean forces could advance 4-20km per hour.

Now i have made 2 assumptions that may not be correct:
because of the geographical location, i assumed that South Korea's defense line is a point defense system. and not defense in depth
also, i assumed if North Korea concentrates forces that focuse on penetrating certain portions on the defense line, North Korea could break through. Of course, this might not happen
Also, Well the land near the DMZ is forested hills/mountainous then south of the DMZ (where you put the green line) is the Imjin River which is a natural defense that must be bridged. Anphib tanks are no match for MBTs (heck most aren't even a match for a Bradly) so even if they cross they will get chewed up quick so engineers must set up bridges to cross or use landing boats. The river is going to be mined very quick with FASCAM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kN3WxXTie0), and any bridges they set up will be easily spotted by birds in orbit or by JSTARS and taken out.

[Tribesman]

OMG, North vs South. Spy vs Spy, East vs West, when will it end ? I know when they ,who ever they, think they are, those who decide they are the rulers of the new world order, that think 2 thirds of us should die so that we don't suck up thier perious air. Question where do you fit in those thirds ? By the way bone up on your chinesse. Death by a thousand cuts, so what will Iran do ? TSA, Thousands Standing Around.

So Yubba, is it the North or South Koreans who are really the reptillian penguins from the planet Blurg?
If I donate a can of sardines to them do you think they will let me be one of the third who can live?

[krashkart]

but remember, north korean equipment lacks maintenance and spare parts
after 60 years, i don't really expect those guns to still work


Expect the guns to be fully operational. The Ottomans maintained a 300-year old siege cannon and used it to help thwart the Royal Navy in the early 1800's. Never underestimate your enemy. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanelles_gun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanelles_Operation

Also, expect the enemy to pull an ace or more out of his sleeve. You never know what kind of weird **** the top commanders on either side have sitting on the back burners. :yep:

If NK wants war, what do they have in place to defend themselves against repeated counterattack? What are their deepest of defenses? They don't have much as far as we can see, but what they do have is worth holding on to. And we will eventually take it as long as the doves don't get up in a bind about it. Thoughts? :ping:

[Raptor1]

my estimates (battle for Seoul) assuming North Korea attacks first, using 2000 forces:
First phase (red lines) 0-10 hours: are the first wave of North Korean attacks. Localized breakthroughs could be achieved, but no significant progress by the north Korean armies. North Korean artillery would cause a certain amount of damage to Seoul. However, the majority of North Korean guns would be destroyed by air-strikes and counter-battery fire.

Second phase (blue lines) 10-24 hours: South Korean localized counter attack. South Korean strategic reserves are used. Reserves and militia are mobilized. At the end of this phase, south Korean forces would dig in at the green line

Third phase (brown lines) 24-96 hours: South Korean forces would take back and restore prewar positions. American forces start to arrive. Both sides dig into their prewar defense lines, creating a short-lived stalemate. South Korea destroys most of the North's air power. Continued air strikes would cause damage to North Korean Forces

Forth Phase (black lines) after 96 hours: South Korea drive into North Korea with assistance from international forces


what do you guys think?

I don't think that's going to happen, for a number of reasons:

First of all, there are tactical and logistical problems, relating to terrain, air power and the fact that much of the North Korean army is junk, which means that a direct assault on Seoul is most likely going to be stopped on the DMZ itself. So I don't think they'll get that far.

Secondly, according to what is known about North Korean operational strategy, which seems to be based on the Soviet deep battle doctrine, it's very unlikely the DPRK will even attempt a major breakthrough right across Seoul. You see, the deployment of the North Korean army (Or at least what is known of it) includes a first and second echelon (And a strategic reserve), much like the Soviet Army, with the first comprising infantry corps and the second tank and mechanized corps. The idea is that the first echelon formations will execute set-piece offensives across the DMZ, breaking through the enemy front line. After breakthrough is achieved, the second echelon formations will then act in support of the attack and as operational maneuver groups, which will rush through the gap and proceed to occupy the enemy's operational depth.

If the North Koreans hadn't changed their deployment and doctrine when I wasn't looking, I'd say the most logical course of action for them is to execute secondary attacks on Seoul to prevent movement of forces and attempt to achieve a breakthrough to the east of Seoul, in the center of the line, then use the operational maneuver groups to encircle Seoul and cut off the bulk of the ROK/US forces.

Of course, this most likely won't work because of the same tactical and logistical problems. The estimate of North Korean doctrine might also be totally off, but there's not too much to work with nowadays.

[Oberon]

4 out of 6 K9 were outside of the base for training, so only 2 K9s were damaged. One K9 got direct shot but survived, and other one had just missed the direct shot but the blast caused damage. Both K9s had problem on their FCS due to damage. Therefore, only 4 K9s were used for counterattack.
There is a suspicion that someone (NK agent) in the island and guided artilleries since NK artillery seemed adjusting targets by shooting few rounds at the beginning.

:hmmm:

[CCIP]

Two civilians also reported found dead on the island this morning.


TLAM: thanks for that link, great read!

[Armistead]

If we take on NK, the tactics will be based on the best way to make money, meaning a slower war and more nation building. Wonder what would happen if Palin were Pres.

Fact is the Mississippi National Guard could take out NK in two weeks

[TLAM Strike]

If we take on NK, the tactics will be based on the best way to make money, meaning a slower war and more nation building. I think a fast deceive stragty would be better. Overrun and capture as much of their nuclear sites as possible, which would be difficult since Yongbyon is so far North. Hate to think what would happen to the people and materials at those sites if they got scattered in to the wind and landed in places like Libya, Syria, Iran, or Myanmar.

Fact is the Mississippi National Guard could take out NK in two weeks Too bad the MNG dosn't have any naval kit. Because ASW is going to be huge against North Korea, they have around 70 subs. Sure they are either old and busted or small coastal boats. But just having such large numbers could be overwhelming. If they surged the majority against us it would constitute the largest naval force directed against a western nation in wartime since WWII (Falklands included).

[Molon Labe]

This just in from the 7th Fleet (http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=57375): The G-Dub is headed to the Yellow Sea.

Let's see if those plans change while the strike group is in transit. I really hope they don't. There is no sense in respecting China's wishes if they intend to continue enabling the DPRK instead of contributing positively to the peace/disarmament process.

[TLAM Strike]

This just in from the 7th Fleet (http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=57375): The G-Dub is headed to the Yellow Sea.

Let's see if those plans change while the strike group is in transit. I really hope they don't. There is no sense in respecting China's wishes if they intend to continue enabling the DPRK instead of contributing positively to the peace/disarmament process.

For a list of participating ROK forces, please contact ROK Joint Chiefs of Staff Public Affairs. "Ummm yes I would like to know the participating ROKN ships, their deployment time tables and EMCOM postures?"

I dare someone to send that email! :haha:

Why even bother giving that info out. Do they think the news services know anything about such forces. Last night on the news they said the North Koreans sank a South Korean submarine when talking about the Cheonan... :damn:

[TLAM Strike]

http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/11/yeonpyeong-navy-notes-24-hours-later.html

ID is reporting some interesting stuff...

There are 50 major warships of the USN, ROKN, and JMSDF at sea heading to Korean waters.

Also the first US ISR asset on scene was a UAV launched from the submarine USS Jimmy Carter.

In addition North Korea's crop harvest appears to be very poor.

:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:

[Raptor1]

In addition North Korea's crop harvest appears to be very poor.


Hasn't it been for the last 20 years or so?

[The Third Man]

USS George Washington en route to South Korea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o0cZI9rLSS4#! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=o0cZI9rLSS4)

[Oberon]

In addition North Korea's crop harvest appears to be very poor.

:hmmm::hmmm::hmmm:

All the more reason to distract the starving public with warnings of 'Southern Aggression'. :yep:

[TLAM Strike]

Hasn't it been for the last 20 years or so?

It got real bad 15 years ago but until 2007 it was slowing improving.

[TLAM Strike]

Photos of the damage here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?189815-Today-s-Photos-Wednesday-November-24-2010

Any of our resident army/marine guys know what kind of round this is?

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8164/rtyryt.jpg

[Molon Labe]

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/_data/photo/2010/11/24230846.jpghttp://joongangdaily.joins.com/_data/photo/2010/11/24230840.jpg

From here: http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2928852

They make some interesting claims there about the counter-attack, but don't offer much to support them.

[Ducimus]

Photos of the damage here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?189815-Today-s-Photos-Wednesday-November-24-2010

Any of our resident army/marine guys know what kind of round this is?

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8164/rtyryt.jpg

I wasn't army or marine, but i'd call that a UXO. Whoever took that photo, is an idiot if they weren't using a telephoto lens, or part of of an EOD team.

[Molon Labe]

I don't see any fins, but it's long enough to make me think rocket. BM-21?

[mapuc]

Let's play a little scenario

First the prepolitical scenario

South Korea's Government are awaiting the outcome from the UN-Security meeting. Again the chinese have votede against a strong complain against North korea.

The South Korean government feel that they are on they own, so the president calls the president of the USA and have a talk with Obama.

Obama ask his alliede to stand down and not to do any thing that could escalate the tension in this area. Obama tells him, that USA will help South Korea. After the south korean president have hunged up he knows that not even from the great allied they can count on any help of any kind.

Even the North Korea knows that and the day after the UN-meeting they start sending shells over the DMZ again. South response but only with some few missiles.

The people in south korea are demostrating on the street. They want revenge now.

The government feel a huge press on they shoulder...

What happens next... Maybe nothing.

This scenario is a fantasy made from all information I've got from the news and my knowledge from this area.

You are free to continue my "story"

Regards
Markus

[CCIP]

I don't see any fins, but it's long enough to make me think rocket. BM-21?

Definitely! Compare what you see above to the bottom right picture here:

http://www.ddrafg.com/images/Heavy%20Weapon/New%20images/bm-21.jpg

Looks like the fins got blown off. Given what it is (the very tail end), maybe it's not even UXO but just a fragment blown off after the round exploded?

[mapuc]

Ohh by the way. Some weeks ago a friend send me this link

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/03/nostradamus-predicted-world-war-iii-for-2010/

It was send to me on Nov 16th
I remembered the story about 5 minutes after the first news from South Korea.

I do NOT belive it!!

Markus

[Oberon]

That's a rather interesting site... :doh:

My favourite so far:

"Russian Military Analysts are reporting to Prime Minister Putin that US President Barack Obama has issued orders to his Northern Command’s (USNORTHCOM) top leader, US Air Force General Gene Renuart, to “begin immediately” increasing his military forces to 1 million troops by January 30, 2010, in what these reports warn is an expected outbreak of civil war within the United States before the end of winter."

If I were Putin, I'd ask for new analysts...

[Tribesman]

Some weeks ago a friend send me this link


I hope he sent it as a laugh, as that is one real crazy site.

[Molon Labe]

Some info on the ROK counter attack: http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/11/25/2010112500536.html

[Rockstar]

That's a rather interesting site... :doh:

My favourite so far:

"Russian Military Analysts are reporting to Prime Minister Putin that US President Barack Obama has issued orders to his Northern Command’s (USNORTHCOM) top leader, US Air Force General Gene Renuart, to “begin immediately” increasing his military forces to 1 million troops by January 30, 2010, in what these reports warn is an expected outbreak of civil war within the United States before the end of winter."

If I were Putin, I'd ask for new analysts...

Karl Kraus wrote, "How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists, and then believe what they read."

[Molon Labe]

ID has some analysis on the US move into the Yellow Sea: http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/11/president-reponds-with-modern-gunboat.html


An interesting point he makes is that although an attack against CSG-73 is unlikely, there will be some response from the PRC. They're going to be humiliated that it happened again, and they'll need to save face somehow.

Any theories on what that response could be?

[Castout]

Any theories on what that response could be?

Exciting? :haha:

[Castout]

Joke aside this shelling is an overt aggression on the part of North Korea and the victims include civilian and civilian property.

That's nothing short than an act of war but given the unique situation in Korea peninsula which ended in armistice, South may not feel compelled to respond with an all out war and that's certainly the very reason of the coming US fleet to the yellow sea: to rein in North Korea and PREVENT war by show of force.

China doesn't want war either because its main concern now is to sustain its economic growth to fuel its growing political and military power and it wants to expand its sphere of influence to Asia countries and it would not be helping itself by asserting North Korea latest shelling on South Korea island.

It would thus be politically best for China to remain passive and quiet while South Korea and US play their show of force card.

This is not Cheonan sinking which was covert and deniable.

But if China decided to go aggressive it would reveal to the world how it would expand its sphere of influence to other Asia pacific countries i.e through military force and intimidation which would not help bringing in friends in the long term and propel further arm races in the pacific especially South East Asia countries which remain until today relatively poorly armed.

I'd worry about North Korea reaction though than China objection to US fleet in its waters of influence.

But all these are just my personal opinion and I'm clearly not an expert and have no idea the psyche of the Chinese leadership. Just my 2 cents.
If I were the Chinese leader I would stay quiet. I would neither try to pressure North Korea but would not try to prevent US fleet to do their show of force to rein in North Korea into some sense either.

[Oberon]

Castout is probably right, although they might perhaps rush the Shi Lang into service, I mean she must be nearly in a ready state by now. :hmmm:

[Armistead]

China owns a large portion of our debt, enough that if we didn't pay them back could easily destroy their upcoming economy...

[Platapus]

China owns a large portion of our debt, enough that if we didn't pay them back could easily destroy their upcoming economy...

Large portion? Nah. About 20%.* And yes if we defaulted on any of our bills (regardless of who owned them) it could have adverse affects on the borrowing country.

Good thing the US has never defaulted on any of their bills... which is why they are such a good investment for countries. :yeah:

* http://www.ustreas.gov/tic/mfh.txt

[TLAM Strike]

Castout is probably right, although they might perhaps rush the Shi Lang into service, I mean she must be nearly in a ready state by now. :hmmm:

Maybe not, who knows, China's new SSBNs have been sitting in port for over a 3 years and they looked finished when we 1st spotted them.

2007:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/912/boomers2007.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/boomers2007.jpg/)
Today:
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/7188/boomerstoday.th.jpg (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/boomerstoday.jpg/)

[CCIP]

To dig up a post from a couple of pages back...

If we take on NK, the tactics will be based on the best way to make money, meaning a slower war and more nation building. Wonder what would happen if Palin were Pres.


And here we finally have the answer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11840828


:88):88):88)

[Oberon]

Maybe not, who knows, China's new SSBNs have been sitting in port for over a 3 years and they looked finished when we 1st spotted them.

2007:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/912/boomers2007.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/boomers2007.jpg/)
Today:
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/7188/boomerstoday.th.jpg (http://img695.imageshack.us/i/boomerstoday.jpg/)

They're probably scared that they'll do like the other Xia :03:

[TLAM Strike]

They're probably scared that they'll do like the other Xia :03:
Either that or all the Han class crewmen now in the cancer ward damped the spirits of the crew slated for these new boats and they went back to the family farm... :hmmm:

[Molon Labe]

They've sacked their defense minister over this because the response was too weak. Which doesn't make any sense, because at least from my perspective the Korean people have wanted weak responses to the Norks for some time now. The ROE in place were designed to respond proportionally without escalating, consistent with their national strategy of waiting for the North to collapse under its own incompetence.

[Oberon]

They've sacked their defense minister over this because the response was too weak. Which doesn't make any sense, because at least from my perspective the Korean people have wanted weak responses to the Norks for some time now. The ROE in place were designed to respond proportionally without escalating, consistent with their national strategy of waiting for the North to collapse under its own incompetence.

They do and don't, I think the ROK public is split between those who remember the Korean war and don't want another one, and those who don't and have lived with DPRK aggression and ROK restraint for all their lives. The former are those who urge the restraint and want to wait for the DPRK to collapse in on itself, whereas the latter are more aggressive and want revenge for the ROK lives lost to DPRK action over the years. The leader of the ROK has to tread a delicate line between the two if he wants to stay in power, and as the 1950s retreat further into history, the former people die off and the latter grow in number.

[Oberon]

Either that or all the Han class crewmen now in the cancer ward damped the spirits of the crew slated for these new boats and they went back to the family farm... :hmmm:

That would put a dampener on the whole affair...however, it's a sign of the new PRC if they can actually go back to the farms and not find their family dead when they get there... :hmmm:

[ReFaN]

and here comes america!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/24/AR2010112407076.html

[Molon Labe]

They do and don't, I think the ROK public is split between those who remember the Korean war and don't want another one, and those who don't and have lived with DPRK aggression and ROK restraint for all their lives.

I've heard this theory before, and it seems to be playing out. The young generation just doesn't seem to appreciate the threat.

------
More news:

DPRK used thermobaric or FAE rounds on Yeonpeyong.

3 or the 6 K9 batteries on Yonpeyong were disabled due to battle damage or software glitches and did not return fire that day.

"The only AN/TPQ-36 artillery location radar didn’t work properly so the South failed to neutralize North Korean artillery, a JCS source admitted."

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/11/205_76976.html

[TLAM Strike]

That would put a dampener on the whole affair...however, it's a sign of the new PRC if they can actually go back to the farms and not find their family dead when they get there... :hmmm:

This isn't the 1980's, I'm fairly certain sub service in the PLAN is on a volunteer basis. Point is I'm sure if they don't want to serve on subs they can transfer to some other post and get their food allotment cut ($4.70 for sub guys) then muster out.

[TLAM Strike]

"The only AN/TPQ-36 artillery location radar didn’t work properly so the South failed to neutralize North Korean artillery, a JCS source admitted." Wonder if it got jammed. China offers LGB jammers, we found some in Baghdad. :hmmm:

[Jimbuna]

and here comes america!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/24/AR2010112407076.html

I doubt this will phase China into doing anything 'sensible' toward NK....only a retaliatory strike will make them realise stability in the region is a real possibility.

[Castout]

Castout is probably right, although they might perhaps rush the Shi Lang into service, I mean she must be nearly in a ready state by now. :hmmm:

They already called for restraint implying that North Korea may make another provocation and make the presence of USS George Washington the pretense. North Korea probably told the Chinese that they would act their words regarding another military exercises near the border.

What Washington needs to be aware is that a show of force is useless unless they are ready for war when war is necessary, at the very least a limited one.

[Molon Labe]

Duds and NK tactics:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2928905The South Korean military is examining around twenty North Korean shells that failed to explode and were found lodged in concrete walls and in tree branches. Eighty of the 170 shells fired managed to land on the island. Roughly 90 rounds fell into the sea.
The number of duds is expected to increase, as troops are still combing the island for shells. South Korean authorities believe the duds and the shells that failed to reach the island were the result of North Korea’s aged equipment or flawed gunpowder and detonators.
Military officials believe North Korea achieved such extensive damage on the island despite the duds and the misses because it meticulously planned the attack. It used “time-on-target” (TOT) coordination, a military tactic in which all the munitions arrive at the same time at a designated target for maximum destruction.
* * *
A firing drill using the TOT method was carried out by North Korea in January near the Northern Limit Line, with around 100 rounds fired, which South Korean authorities think was a dress rehearsal for Tuesday’s attack.
* * *
They didn’t fire randomly but specifically targeted the military base on the island, including oil storage units, and 20,000 liters of oil were released, some catching on fire. They also targeted the post office, a supermarket and municipal buildings. Those structure were formerly military buildings, so the South Korean military suspects North Korea was planning from an old map.

[mapuc]

A question to the americans

Why did you change your support? Yesterday you supported South Korea and today you are supporting North Korea that's a quick change indeed.

Markus

[TLAM Strike]

A question to the americans

Why did you change your support? Yesterday you supported South Korea and today you are supporting North Korea that's a quick change indeed.

Markus

What? The only criticism I have of the South right now is they didn't drop some GBUs on the Nork arty bunkers. :down:

I doubt you will find many Americans who support dropping FAEs on civvies. :nope:

[CCIP]

Is that an ironic stab at Sarah Palin masquerading as a question? :hmmm:

[Penguin]

A question to the americans

Why did you change your support? Yesterday you supported South Korea and today you are supporting North Korea that's a quick change indeed.

Markus

It is because North Korea is geographically closer to Alaska than the South! ;)









@TLAM: He is probably referring to what your greatest thinker said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11840828



edit: damn, CCIP beat me to seconds!

[TLAM Strike]

Is that an ironic stab at Sarah Palin masquerading as a question? :hmmm:
@TLAM: He is probably referring to what your greatest thinker said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11840828

I find it best to ignore Sara Palin... :haha:

[Molon Labe]

What? The only criticism I have of the South right now is they didn't drop some GBUs on the Nork arty bunkers. :down:

I doubt you will find many Americans who support dropping FAEs on civvies. :nope:

Their ROE was to respond in the same manner as the nature of the attack. So, artillery was met with artillery.

Seems stupid, but it makes sense when you consider that the policy is about preventing escalation rather than deterring/forcibly stopping attacks. And those ROE look like they're done for now.


----------------------------
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/11/26/2010112600290.html
A military source on Thursday said analysis of about 20 unexploded shells collected from the island showed that many of them are not ordinary 76.2-mm coastal artillery shells but 122-mm MLRS shells.
* * *
Analysis of reconnaissance aircraft photographs revealed that the North deployed a 122-mm MLRS battalion of its Fourth Army Corps at Kaemori, South Hwanghae Province on the day of the attack. One battalion has 18 MLRS vehicles.

[Platapus]

I find it best to ignore Sara Palin... :haha:

I am trying but the media won't let me. :wah::wah::wah:

[CCIP]

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/11/26/2010112600290.html

Yeah, this certainly matches with the picture TLAM posted earlier. This is certainly interesting - just goes to show that this was indeed premediated. Although given how the whole thing happened, I never did believe that it was merely a reaction to something happening in the South's exercise in nearby waters - nope, they knew they wanted to make a show, probably as soon as they learned that an exercise would be happening at all...

[ReFaN]

i got a small tingling feeling, all **** is going to break loose soon, and it wont be pretty.

[Freiwillige]

Really I'm not really a Palin supporter but if the best thing you have against her is confusing north and south (In word only) as she has clearly stated before that north Korea is the enemy so she grasps that concept just fine. Then you have not much. In fact many presidents have slipped up in a press conferance or a speech.

It was a freudian slip.

As for the Korean issue I read that the real reason the South doesn't want to push the north is fear of the unstable regime collapsing and China walking in again and taking over. North Korea fails to exist and South Korea becomes China's neighbor. Is this a realistic view?

[Reece]

i got a small tingling feeling, all **** is going to break loose soon, and it wont be pretty.
Yes! when the war games start that could open the proverbial "can of worms"!:yep:
http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/henryjacksonsociety/hjsuserfiles/north%20korea.jpg
I'm coming to get you!!

[CCIP]

I like how North Korea still has the nerve to send indignant warnings about exercises, while it's being widely reported that they themselves are possibly conducting exercises near the same area where the incident took place.

[Dowly]

Really I'm not really a Palin supporter but if the best thing you have against her is confusing north and south (In word only) as she has clearly stated before that north Korea is the enemy so she grasps that concept just fine. Then you have not much. In fact many presidents have slipped up in a press conferance or a speech.

I agree. Bush's "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." springs to mind. :O:

[Jimbuna]

I agree. Bush's "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." springs to mind. :O:


I actually liked the guy and always knew he meant well despite some classic speech gaffs :DL

A few more:

They misunderestimated me.
- US President George W. Bush (November 6, 2000 in Bentonville, Arkansas)
You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test.
- US President George W. Bush (2000?)
Reading is the basics for all learning.
- US President George W. Bush (Discussing his “Reading First” plan in Reston, Virginia, March 28, 2000)
Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?
- US President George W. Bush (January 11, 2000)
My views are one that speaks to freedom.
- US President George W. Bush (in Washington, D.C. on Jan. 29, 2004)
And it’s a struggle between good and it’s a struggle between evil.
- US President George W. Bush in a speech (on terrorism) to the Cattle Industry Annual Convention and Trade Show at the Denver Convention Center (February 8, 2002)
We cannot let terrorists hold this nation hostile or hold our allies hostile.
- US President George W. Bush (2000 in Des Moines, Iowa)
Our nation must come together to unite.
- US President George W. Bush (June 4, 2001)
Bush stumbling during his debate with Al Gore when he looked dead pan at the camera and said with complete sincerity that the US could not elect a man who sends “mexed missages’.”
If you choose to do so, when Iraq is liberated, you will be treated, tried and persecuted as a war criminal.
- US President George W. Bush (In St. Louis on January 22, 2003, he likely meant ‘prosecuted.’ Just for the record Bill O’reilly made the same mistake on his TV show The O’reilly Factor in August 2004)
Will the highways on the Internet become more few?
- US President George W. Bush (Concord, New Hampshire, January 29, 2000)
If you don’t stand for anything, you don’t stand for anything!
- US President George W. Bush (November 2, 2000 at Bellevue Community College)
I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully.
- US President George W. Bush (September 29, 2000 in Saginaw, Michigan)
I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family
- US President George W. Bush (January 27, 2000 in New Hampshire)
This very week in 1989, there were protests in East Berlin and in Leipzig. By the end of that year, every communist dictatorship in Central America had collapsed.
- US President George W. Bush (November 6, 2003 in Washington, D.C.)
Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream.
- US President George W. Bush (October 2000)
I think we agree, the past is over.
- US President George W. Bush (May 10, 2000)

[Kaye T. Bai]

Well, the United States of America currently has 60 states (including the territories of Alaska and Hawaii) and the United States Navy has Hospital Corpse Men. :O:

[Herr-Berbunch]

I actually liked the guy...

Easy to say when he wasn't El Presidente del Reino Unido de Gran Bretaña e Irlanda del Norte. :yep:

Next you'll be saying Bliar didn't lie! :O:

[Kaye T. Bai]

But- Antonio Blair of TUKOGBANI...

[The Third Man]

Why don't I believe this? With the great apoligizer in office, why would any nation, much less one as irresponsible as N. Korea believe this, much less feel threatened by it?


U.S. Air Force 'Ready to Strike' if Korean Tensions Escalate

The U.S. Air Force is ready to respond immediately if hostilities between the two Koreas escalate, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz said Wednesday. Schwartz told reporters after North Korea's attack on Yeonpyeong Island, "The bottom line is that U.S. Forces Korea certainly is monitoring the situation carefully."

He mentioned Osan and Gunsan in South Korea, Kaneda in Okinawa, Japan, and other U.S. Air Force bases in the Pacific to emphasize that the U.S. has plenty of firepower in the region. Schwartz added USFK Commander Gen. Walter Sharp "has operational control of Air Force assets that reside on the peninsula and can be augmented if required."

On the issue of a possible return of tactical nuclear weapons to South Korea, Schwartz said the issue has not been discussed by the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, but added he would advise Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen to the best of his ability. "The bottom line is, we have substantial capability on the peninsula and in the immediate environments to sustain a very credible deterrent posture," he said.

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2010/11/26/2010112600897.html

[Castout]

I like how North Korea still has the nerve to send indignant warnings about exercises, while it's being widely reported that they themselves are possibly conducting exercises near the same area where the incident took place.


You don't know how low some Asian leaders could go :haha:

Trust me I know. The excuses, the lies, the selfishness, and the EGO and the PRIDE and the cruelty and the cheating and the ARROGANCE. Meh I'd call some of them kids.

[Platapus]

And people wonder why politicians use teleprompters.

That's because every single word they say is being recorded and any slipup no matter how slight is immediately broadcast round the world on the Internets Tubes.

These types of slipups are funny and good for a laugh. The problem is when some people take these slips and extrapolate that it somehow means the person is ignorant.

It is a slip up. Every politician, and for that matter anyone who does public speaking makes these.

It is funny and we should laugh at it. But it is just a slip up.

[Kaye T. Bai]

They misunderestimated my telepromter. Vice President Biden and I have had some sex- err, setbacks.

[Oberon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Kp8Kma9eM

[HunterICX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Kp8Kma9eM

''Missed me'' :haha:

HunterICX

[TLAM Strike]

ROKMC Commander vows revenge:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101127/wl_nm/us_korea_north1

Protests in Seoul:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/27/koreas.crisis/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

[Jimbuna]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Kp8Kma9eM

Classic :DL

[darius359au]

I'm starting to wonder if the North's going to be crazy enough to take a pot shot at the George Washington or one of her escorts in the battle group during the exercise- I really wouldn't put anything past them now with the way they've been behaving ,and as long as China doesn't say anything against them ,their going to keep escalating.

[Oberon]

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/331/3/f/world_in_trouble_by_humon-d33p7bw.jpg

Things are tensing up between North and South Korea. USA have joined in. Nukes are involved.

...And in Denmark the news are mostly about the snow. Because you know, it’s weird when it snows in a Nordic country.

[Takeda Shingen]

What the hell does Hitler have to do with the current crisis?

[Reece]

What the hell does Hitler have to do with the current crisis?
It's good to know I wasn't the only one thinking that! seemed way out of context to me!:hmmm:

[sonar732]

Due to the media's inability to correctly discern the difference between a surface to surface and surface to sea missile...has anyone heard from a good source if the missiles deployed to the Yellow Sea are the Taepo Dong type or possible Silkworm type?

[sonar732]

How credible is the Yonhap News Agency?

South Korea military spots North Korea firing artillery (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128002000315.HTML)

Explosions heard (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128001900320.HTML)

[TLAM Strike]

Due to the media's inability to correctly discern the difference between a surface to surface and surface to sea missile...has anyone heard from a good source if the missiles deployed to the Yellow Sea are the Taepo Dong type or possible Silkworm type?
The Silkworm type missiles are deployed on mobile launchers mounted on tank chassis or towed by trucks. So they could be anywhere. The NK-01 turbojet variant has a range of approximately 270 nm. These could be hidden anywhere, the Norks have a lot of bunkers.

No idea on the Taepo Dong but I doubt it, it would be more inland and well protected.

The DPRK has a little over 10 SA-2 Sites near the Yellow Sea coast plus a SA-5 site, plus 6 SA-3 sites in Pyongyang, not to mention tons of AAA.

They also have around 30 small surface combatants and around 7 subs in and around Namp'o. North of Kwai they have 3 Romeos, 7 Coastal Subs, 40 small surface combatants, and 8 medium surface combatants.

How credible is the Yonhap News Agency?
Very...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonhap

Yonhap is South Korea's only news agency large enough to have 41 correspondents abroad and 110 reporters across the nation.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonhap#cite_note-aboutus-1) Its largest shareholder is the Korean Broadcasting System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Broadcasting_System) (KBS), South Korea's largest public broadcaster.

[sonar732]

The Silkworm type missiles are deployed on mobile launchers mounted on tank chassis or towed by trucks. So they could be anywhere. The NK-01 turbojet variant has a range of approximately 270 nm. These could be hidden anywhere, the Norks have a lot of bunkers.

No idea on the Taepo Dong but I doubt it, it would be more inland and well protected.

The DPRK has a little over 10 SA-2 Sites near the Yellow Sea coast plus a SA-5 site, plus 6 SA-3 sites in Pyongyang, not to mention tons of AAA.

They also have around 30 small surface combatants and around 7 subs in and around Namp'o. North of Kwai they have 3 Romeos, 7 Coastal Subs, 40 small surface combatants, and 8 medium surface combatants.


Very...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonhap

Thanks TLAM!

[TLAM Strike]

Thanks TLAM!

No problem.

Here are a few Google Earth Images of the ships, now the dates on some maybe old but the DPRK doesn't move their ships from coast to coast to the counts are accurate unless they scrapped the ship.

Their large base near Kwai:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1148/14766127.jpg
The surface ships there, the big ones on the left are Osa type boats:
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1994/75360368.jpg

The base at Namp'o:
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/54/71742160.jpg

[Molon Labe]

My understanding is that both SA-2s and ASCMs (including "silkworms") have been deployed to the Yellow Sea coastal area.

[TLAM Strike]

My understanding is that both SA-2s and ASCMs (including "silkworms") have been deployed to the Yellow Sea coastal area.

Here is an overview of the DPRK's known SAM Sites...
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/4712/sams.jpg
The red Triangles are SA-2s.
The Light Blue Triangles are SA-3s.
The Purple Triangles are SA-5s
The Blue Circle is a 36D6 'TIN SHIELD' Radar Site.

From: http://geimint.blogspot.com/

[CCIP]

Their air defense system looks fairly pathetic, actually. Combined with their air force being largely obsolete, I can't imagine that it would take longer than a couple of hours for South Korea/combined forces to have total air superiority in this...

Yeah, I'm reading a couple of sources about missiles being moved out to the yellow sea and other launch sites. Not entirely unexpected though, they have to rattle something in response to the exercises. I'm curious whether the situation happening now is what they wanted to achieve, or if they're a little scared themselves. We'll have to wait and see what the response will be now that China is calling for talks - perhaps they'll come running to the table.

[Oberon]

What the hell does Hitler have to do with the current crisis?


He gets about...actually, tbh I haven't got a clue but the rest of it is funny. :03: Well, IMHO it is anyway.

[Oberon]

How credible is the Yonhap News Agency?

South Korea military spots North Korea firing artillery (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128002000315.HTML)

Explosions heard (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128001900320.HTML)

Could have been this:

South Korean artillery accidentally fired into southern side of DMZ (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128005100315.HTML)

[CCIP]

Could have been this:

South Korean artillery accidentally fired into southern side of DMZ (http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/news/2010/11/28/0200000000AEN20101128005100315.HTML)

Oops. Now imagine if they accidentally fired one into North Korea and that, accidentally of course, started a war.

This is why you don't let Bernard man the guns :timeout:

[Ducimus]

To dig up a post from a couple of pages back...



And here we finally have the answer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11840828


:88):88):88)


/facepalm

Why won't she just do everyone a favor and just go away?

They do and don't, I think the ROK public is split between those who remember the Korean war and don't want another one, and those who don't and have lived with DPRK aggression and ROK restraint for all their lives. The former are those who urge the restraint and want to wait for the DPRK to collapse in on itself, whereas the latter are more aggressive and want revenge for the ROK lives lost to DPRK action over the years. The leader of the ROK has to tread a delicate line between the two if he wants to stay in power, and as the 1950s retreat further into history, the former people die off and the latter grow in number.

Excellent point and observation. It's never the old ones who were alive to see the korean war that say, "F**k you GI!", or "GI go home!" its just everybody else that spits in our face.

A question to the americans

Why did you change your support? Yesterday you supported South Korea and today you are supporting North Korea that's a quick change indeed.

Markus

I for one, never changed my support for ROK. I never willingly supported them, nor the DPRK. As far as im concerned, their little civil war is none of our concern, and i just assume let them pound each other back into the stone age.

I like how North Korea still has the nerve to send indignant warnings about exercises, while it's being widely reported that they themselves are possibly conducting exercises near the same area where the incident took place.

Same ole ... same ole.....

Why don't I believe this? With the great apoligizer in office, why would any nation, much less one as irresponsible as N. Korea believe this, much less feel threatened by it?


U.S. Air Force 'Ready to Strike' if Korean Tensions Escalate

[I]The U.S. Air Force is ready to respond immediately if hostilities between the two Koreas escalate,...

I believe it. There are assets prepositioned all over the penninsula, as well as emergency runways.

[Gorduz]

Hi just for couriosity,

how many attacksubs do you think the USN is sending into the yellow sea as we are speaking?

[Takeda Shingen]

Hi just for couriosity,

how many attacksubs do you think the USN is sending into the yellow sea as we are speaking?

Zero. They're already there.

[TLAM Strike]

Hi just for couriosity,

how many attacksubs do you think the USN is sending into the yellow sea as we are speaking?
Currently there are 25 USN attack subs at sea. Where they are is anyone's guess.

[Oberon]

Currently there are 25 USN attack subs at sea. Where they are is anyone's guess.

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3141/610xsi.jpg

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6842/534543j.jpg
Somewhere there?

EDIT: Can't see any subs though...

Meanwhile in Seoul:

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/vor033/daily%20pics/f77ae6fa.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3141/610xsi.jpg

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6842/534543j.jpg


"Damn it guys! How many time do I have to say it: Stop playing Harpoon in the CVIC!"

EDIT: Can't see any subs though... That is the whole reason we spend 3 billion USD on them...

[TLAM Strike]

Actually interesting images now that I look at them Obie.
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6931/csg73.jpg
Little short of the 200 km range reported on the HY-2, but in the reported range of the Turbojet HY-4 SSM (300 to 500 km)... :hmmm:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7168/silkwormsite.jpg
Silkworm site my friends and I found in detail
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/silkwormsite.jpg

[darius359au]

This is interesting if it's true.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/8415679/china-ready-to-abandon-north-korea-leak/
Come to think of it ,it could make things worse there - North Korea does listen to China sometimes ,but if they think that China's ready to dump them, then they might start thinking "why should we listen to them" and just go ahead with whatever they want....

[Molon Labe]

I think it's safe to assume SSN23 is still in town as well as at least one 688/774 attached to CSG-73. That's the floor.


TLAM, how does your mapmaker know where CSG-73 is in the Yellow Sea? Do you know if they've stayed outside the EEZ?

[TLAM Strike]

TLAM, how does your mapmaker know where CSG-73 is in the Yellow Sea?

I tasked a RORSAT to find her...

[Molon Labe]

Come on, it'll be interesting to know if they crossed that line because the Chinese have more or less given us that option to save face for both sides.

[August]

This is interesting if it's true.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/8415679/china-ready-to-abandon-north-korea-leak/
Come to think of it ,it could make things worse there - North Korea does listen to China sometimes ,but if they think that China's ready to dump them, then they might start thinking "why should we listen to them" and just go ahead with whatever they want....


I read that too. Interesting stuff. But NK doesn't have a lot of options here. If they loose Chinas backing, they're sunk.

[TLAM Strike]

Come on, it'll be interesting to know if they crossed that line because the Chinese have more or less given us that option to save face for both sides.

She is in the South Korean EEZ. Whether or not she crossed the line at any point I don't know.

Look closely at the photo Oberon Posted.
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7272/610xsiedit.jpg

BTW I think the USS Houston SSN 713 is in the area. She pulled in to Chinhae on the 23. One of the Ohios surfaced in Korea late last month plus one in Guam. Plus I bet the ROKN has a one or two of those smart little AIP boats of theirs out and about, maybe a JMSDF sub out their too.

[Molon Labe]

Good point. Now that I think about it, the EEZ olive branch is probably a red herring anyways. The ROK/DPRK would get to claim up to the halfway point as its own EEZ. We didn't need to cross that line after the Cheonan and we don't now either... and the presence of a carrier east of that line isn't any less threatening to Beijing.

[Oberon]

Thought you'd like it TLAM :03: Good find on the Silkworms and HY-4s. With the CSG (I always want to write CVBG still :wah:) close to the ROK coast down there, I imagine that most ROK radars would pick it up and be able to issue a raid warning to the CSG enabling them to switch on all their CIWS gear long in advance, as well as have a clear indication of the direction of the threat...in fact they could probably turn the group to face the incoming missile to reduce RCS.

The DPRK would have to be more crazy than it is to try and attack the CSG, particularly at that range. If they were up by Incheon, that sort of parallel, then yes, I'd say there was a risk, but down there...not so much of a risk.
Still going to annoy China but judging from the latest wikileaks, China is annoyed enough at the DPRK already, they just hide it well.

[TLAM Strike]

Thought you'd like it TLAM :03: Good find on the Silkworms and HY-4s. With the CSG (I always want to write CVBG still :wah:) close to the ROK coast down there, I imagine that most ROK radars would pick it up and be able to issue a raid warning to the CSG enabling them to switch on all their CIWS gear long in advance, as well as have a clear indication of the direction of the threat...in fact they could probably turn the group to face the incoming missile to reduce RCS.

Heck where the CSG is the Patriot batteries east of Jeonju might even thrash any incoming vampires. They would easly pass in to the Range of the Nike battery near Anmyeon-do but I don't know if the old Nike could engage even a high flying cruise missile like the HY-4.

[Oberon]

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/vor033/US%20Navy/62800635.jpg

Current location.

http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt104/vor033/US%20Navy/1da9707e.jpg

[Oberon]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11887236

Won Sei-hoon, director of South Korea's National Intelligence Service, told a parliamentary committee behind closed doors that the recent attacks came amid "internal complaints" about Pyongyang's third generation succession and worsening economic situation, according to a ruling party official.
"There is a high possibility that the North will make another attack," South Korea's Yonhap news agency quoted him as saying.

[Dowly]

We should build a gigantic Thunderdome where armies of different countries could duke it out without risk to civilian population. Would make things so much easier. :yep:

[the_tyrant]

We should build a gigantic Thunderdome where armies of different countries could duke it out without risk to civilian population. Would make things so much easier. :yep:

Better idea: let north and south korea face off in starcraft:yep:

[Dowly]

Better idea: let north and south korea face off in starcraft:yep:

North koreans have computers? :o

[Reece]

North koreans have computers? :o
:har::har: Good one!!:yep:

[the_tyrant]

North koreans have computers? :o

they have a S**t cyber army (china usually does all the heavy lifting)

Anyways, I have heard that Kim Jiong il is a big gamer, and he goes on gaming forums
........wait a second

DOWLY, are you Kim Jiong Il?:stare:

[Dowly]

DOWLY, are you Kim Jiong Il?:stare:

YOU HAVE NO PROOF! :stare:

*runs away*

[the_tyrant]

YOU HAVE NO PROOF! :stare:

*runs away*

:haha:
I am Kim Jiong Il:03:

[Catfish]

We should build a gigantic Thunderdome where armies of different countries could duke it out without risk to civilian population. Would make things so much easier. :yep:

Answer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTOQUnvI3CA&playnext=1&list=PLA5C5C0C459A2CE0C&index=34

This video was forbidden in some parts of the world, one of it being England. What could be more of a praise ? :D

Greetings,
Catfish

[Oberon]

Answer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTOQUnvI3CA&playnext=1&list=PLA5C5C0C459A2CE0C&index=34

This video was forbidden in some parts of the world, one of it being England. What could be more of a praise ? :D

Greetings,
Catfish

Love that song. :up:

[Reece]

:haha:
I am Kim Jiong Il:03:
Then I'm the reincarnation of Kim Il Sung!:dead::88)

[Gargamel]

May have been posted (if so sorries!)

http://humoncomics.com/art/world-in-trouble.jpg

[Reece]

^ See post #134:oops::O:

[McBeck]

It still valid - nothing in the media in DK about this conflict, but tons about snow

[Sailor Steve]

We should build a gigantic Thunderdome where armies of different countries could duke it out without risk to civilian population. Would make things so much easier. :yep:
Forget the armies. If we have that kind of control, make the leaders fight it out personally.

[Takeda Shingen]

It still valid - nothing in the media in DK about this conflict, but tons about snow

As a native Dane, can you explain why the Godwinning occurs in the third cel? A bunch of us have been trying to figure that one out.

[Raptor1]

As a native Dane, can you explain why the Godwinning occurs in the third cel? A bunch of us have been trying to figure that one out.

It's referencing a joke in an earlier strip, it doesn't have any real meaning...

[McBeck]

So whats the story? I have not seen anything in the Danish media for some time...

[Oberon]

So whats the story? I have not seen anything in the Danish media for some time...

Well, the current state of play so far as I can make it is that the ROK and US have been holding some naval exercises off the west coast, the North has said that that is dangerously provocative. The ROK has acknowledged that it is extremely likely the DPRK will attack again and has warned that it will respond with airstrikes when it does.

I think that's about covered it. :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

I think that's about covered it.
You missed out the main demands of North Korea.
"please give us food and money now"

[Oberon]

You missed out the main demands of North Korea.
"please give us food and money now"

Well, by now that's pretty much goes without saying, doesn't it? :03:

[Takeda Shingen]

They didn't say 'please', they just said 'now' and followed that up with 'North Korea is best Korea.'

[Tribesman]

No no no, north korea doesn't exist, there is only one korea and it happens to be based in the north at the moment

[the_tyrant]

China is mobilizing its army:
pictures:http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=949378541

the reason is that a huge amount of north koreans are entering china illegally

[Oberon]

China is mobilizing its army:
pictures:http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=949378541

the reason is that a huge amount of north koreans are entering china illegally

They can sense the coming storm too...

[Oberon]

Oh, and:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8379/dailypicdump55564071.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

Oh, and:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8379/dailypicdump55564071.jpg

The Brilliant Comrade must have mistaken it for this...
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7671/northkoreaamusement07.jpg

[Oberon]

The Brilliant Comrade must have mistaken it for this...


I suspect that was what caused this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Tb2cp38dwPE/S8npcAuR4pI/AAAAAAAAAA8/SOAySj7sYvk/s1600/cheonan.jpg

[TLAM Strike]

I suspect that was what caused this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Tb2cp38dwPE/S8npcAuR4pI/AAAAAAAAAA8/SOAySj7sYvk/s1600/cheonan.jpg

I figure it happened sort of like this:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/2100/22577cartoonmain.jpg

[Jimbuna]

LOL :DL