U-boat defection

[U777]

With some commanders being openly anti-nazi I've wondered about possible U-boat defections to the Brits or US. If something like this were to occur with a (lets say later model U-boat with radar and other gadgets) what do you think might've happened to the crew in terms of treatment by whomever the defected to? What kind of method could be chosen such as a false distress code saying that the boat is sinking or perhaps the better alternative which is to disappear altogether without a trace?

If it were me I would simply give any crew members the option to opt out (at gunpoint for those who want to try and stop it, have things prearranged with a few officers who are on the same page and have them armed) then have them board life rafts and radio a false sinking to have a nearby German unit pick them up (if I was still close to home base). After that slip away and once in US waters surface then openly broadcast my position and intentions and IIRC a VIIC should have enough diesel fuel for a one way trip to the US. I wouldn't risk trying to prearrange something like this on shore due to gestapo threats so it would have to be done unannounced to the Allies. I guess if one were to make a grand entrance submerge in the NY harbor entrance then travel underwater and surface at a nearby dock.

If you had to defect to the British or US for any reason or wanted to how would you do it?

[Gargamel]

Sail into New York harbor and pop the hatch and say Here I am!

Sorry couldnt resist.

Just like in that movie though, what to do with the crew is a major problem. Defecting with a boat wouldn't be though, just sail right up waving white flag and say here I am! But I'm not sure what I'd do with the crew. Ideally, I'd figure a way to leave them at a milk cow or something. Or maybe even just make them POW's, as I would probably would be.

But just like in the movie, you'd need more than just the Kaleun, you'd need most, if not all, of the officers, and probably some of the crew. It's almost like a reverse mutiny.

But, then most of the crew probably wouldn't mind being POW's, as it probably guaranteed seeing their families again.

[U777]

Ideally, I'd figure a way to leave them at a milk cow or something.

Problem with that is there might be a firefight from the milk cow crew (I think they would carry MP-40's and other hand held weapons) in an attempt to prevent the defection and they will give an updated position report to other U-boats.

But just like in the movie, you'd need more than just the Kaleun, you'd need most, if not all, of the officers, and probably some of the crew. It's almost like a reverse mutiny.

Perhaps somehow negotiate with your most trusted officers as I'd imagine that you would only need a few officers to operate the boat's non combat systems and engines (major plus if the CE goes along with this) and most crewmen are not needed because the boat isn't active seeking out targets thus battle station wont have to be manned.

OR lets say I have reason to believe the Gestapo is after me but I don't want to defect equipment (risking lives of fellow sailors due to code breaches, etc), so I might scuttle the boat and raft ashore upon reaching the US. If no one wants to defect then I could surface the boat, raft ashore then have the rest of the crew return home listing me as lost at sea (I'd imagine they would be sympathetic after explaining that the Gestapo might be looking for me)

[Freiwillige]

The U-boat arm was very professional and all volunteer. They were the elite of the German navy\Kreigsmarine. While allot of Germans were not pro Nazi they were still protecting their homeland and most Germans viewed the war as Justified, After all it was England and France who declared war on Germany not the other way around.

This was just 21 years after WW1 and Many German's rightfully felt betrayed by the allies after it. It was in a sense just a justified continuation and they were determined not to fail. So that is why German sailors didn't defect. It may have not been loyalty to the Fuhrer but it was absolute Loyalty to the Fatherland, their family's, friends.

After all the next ship you sink could be the one hauling aviation fuel to fill the bombers that dump destruction down on your family!

Being a traitor doesn't sit well in any professional military.

Also keep in mind that the Germans also felt insulted by the U.S. escorting British convoy's and attacking U-boats while still legally neutral!!:nope:

War started in the Atlantic 6 months before Hitler's declaration and it was admittedly done by U.S. destroyers breaking international law.:yep:

So would you want to surrender to men who were killing your camerades?:dead:

They did their duty.:salute:

[CCIP]

I don't think it was ever a real possibility to be honest. While there was poor morale on some boats, it was never on this level, and honestly I don't think it was feasible at all. Aside from some of the arguments noted above, you have to realize that even if they 100% did not believe in victory, after losing the war they would for all purposes be unable to ever return home to Germany without being seen as traitors, who by their defection would have caused not only shame but also deaths of ordinary Germans. Try convincing 50 young men to forever surrender any chance of returning home to everyone they ever knew or loved, and you might begin to see the difficulty. Considering the professionalism of the force overall, even in the face of massive casualties, I think it would've been a no-brainer for any crew to rather take their chances honourably in the Atlantic. Above all, the German navy's Prussian officer tradition in which each commander and officer would be steeped just wouldn't allow 5 officers tolerate something like this, even if one or two did.

If I had the idea of defecting, I'd consider defecting individually rather than as a U-boat. Get close to the enemy coast at night, distract your crew with something, and bail. Take as much useful information with you as you can. Don't count on anyone else in your plans.

The real [and fictional] escapes to South America are quite different from what you're suggesting. Those would rather be eluding surrender and avoiding direct admission of defeat, which would certainly be seen as daring.

[kapuhy]

The U-boat arm was very professional and all volunteer.

Which is what continues to shock me. I mean, even some concentration camps offered better survival rates than the U-Boat service, and yet they'd be hard pressed to find any volunteer prisoners.

[the.terrabyte.pirate]

Maybe SH VI will have a post 1945 piracy campaign... where you and your crew refuse to surrender at wars end. :arrgh!:

[Missing Name]

Barratry was rare in WW2. That said, I can only wonder what would happen if a XXI surfaced by the dock in New York harbor...

Maybe SH VI will have a post 1945 piracy campaign... where you and your crew refuse to surrender at wars end. :arrgh!:
I'd play it.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Also keep in mind that the Germans also felt insulted by the U.S. escorting British convoy's and attacking U-boats while still legally neutral!!:nope:


And Spain stayed very neutral in all this?

I agree with all your points though. :yep:

[frau kaleun]

Which is what continues to shock me. I mean, even some concentration camps offered better survival rates than the U-Boat service, and yet they'd be hard pressed to find any volunteer prisoners.

The notion that the WWII u-bootwaffe was made up entirely of volunteers is a popular one... just not a factual one. :D

The reality is that once Germany started building u-boats again, some men volunteered for the service and some men just got assigned to it. The possibility of assignment or transfer to the u-bootwaffe became even more likely as the service expanded during wartime and became the pre-eminent arm of the navy as a whole. There simply were not enough qualified volunteers to meet the increasing demands for manpower as more and more boats came into service (and more and more men were lost in combat).

I have read in a couple places that officers, at least, had the option of refusing a transfer/assignment to the u-boat service; whether this was true at all, and true only for officers, I don't know. Even it was true for everybody regardless of rank, not refusing an assignment is not exactly the same as volunteering for it.

[U777]

The U-boat arm was very professional and all volunteer. They were the elite of the German navy\Kreigsmarine. While allot of Germans were not pro Nazi they were still protecting their homeland and most Germans viewed the war as Justified, After all it was England and France who declared war on Germany not the other way around.

This was just 21 years after WW1 and Many German's rightfully felt betrayed by the allies after it. It was in a sense just a justified continuation and they were determined not to fail. So that is why German sailors didn't defect. It may have not been loyalty to the Fuhrer but it was absolute Loyalty to the Fatherland, their family's, friends.

After all the next ship you sink could be the one hauling aviation fuel to fill the bombers that dump destruction down on your family!

Being a traitor doesn't sit well in any professional military.

Also keep in mind that the Germans also felt insulted by the U.S. escorting British convoy's and attacking U-boats while still legally neutral!!:nope:

War started in the Atlantic 6 months before Hitler's declaration and it was admittedly done by U.S. destroyers breaking international law.:yep:

So would you want to surrender to men who were killing your camerades?:dead:

They did their duty.:salute:

I'm mainly speaking about defection out of necessity (IE fear of returning home, have reason to think the gestapo is after you, possible court marshal for something you know you didn't do, for anything)

I don't agree with defection unless the service member is trying to escape from a very poor life, possible persecution for something he didn't do, or a few other reasons.

After all the next ship you sink could be the one hauling aviation fuel to fill the bombers that dump destruction down on your family!

But that bomber will still takeoff regardless, I haven't heard of any B-17 mission canceled due to lack of fuel.

So would you want to surrender to men who were killing your camerades?:dead:

I might be worse off returning home, if the crew doesn't wanna come I could simply defect solo and have the 2nd in command take the boat and crew home and list me as lost at sea.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1537493#post1537493)
The U-boat arm was very professional and all volunteer.


Quote from kapuhy
Which is what continues to shock me. I mean, even some concentration camps offered better survival rates than the U-Boat service, and yet they'd be hard pressed to find any volunteer prisoners.


Consider then the Kamikaze volunteers...shock upon shock.

[Freiwillige]

The infantrie were fighting the same losing war but yet they came forth and did their duty. It is a duty to your nation win or lose you do your duty.

Do you think that when the Germans were spear heading into Russia at an alarming pace and all seemed lost that the Russian soldier said " ah fork it were done for!" No they did their duty!!!

Do you think that when Britain stood alone against the might of the Whermacht after getting beaten badly in France they said " Hitler was right lets make peace!?" No they did their duty!!

Nationalism and Patriotism are the same in any language in pure meaning.

Deutschland Uber Alles was not just a catch phrase and neither was Gott Mitt Uns!

Germans loved Germany Just as much as the English Loved England, American's loved America and the Japanese loved Japan. Treason like I said is never good in any professional army and there is a good reason traitors
are shot.

Even to this day in these modern conflicts I feel that national treason equals a good old fashioned hang man.......but that's just me.:arrgh!:

[Capt. Morgan]

Maybe SH VI will have a post 1945 piracy campaign... where you and your crew refuse to surrender at wars end. :arrgh!:

Close to the plot of one of the lesser known U-Boat movies;)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060135/

[Randomizer]

On the night of 10 September 1941 during the convoy battle involving Convoy SC-44 the corvettes HMCS Chambly (LCdr James Prentice) and HMCS Moose Jaw (Lt Fred Grubb) blasted U-501 (a Type IXC) to the surface with depth charges. Moose Jaw ran along side and the U-Boat's captain, KK Hugo Forster, jumped from his bridge onto the corvettes deck abandoning his boat and crew. Thinking he was being boarded Capt Grubb hauled off and opened fire as U-501 appeared to be getting under weigh again.

Can Forster be considered as defecting? In September '41 things were going quite well for the u-bootwaffe and for Germany in general.

A party from Chambly soon boarded U-501 as the LI scuttled the boat and she sank with 11 dead plus a Canadian stoker who had gone below to attempt to closing the flooding valves.

Let's not forget that Type VII U-570 (KL Hans Rahmlow) surrendered his new boat to a lone Lockheed Hudson patrol bomber on 27 August 1941. When surface warships finally arrived U-570 was subsequently towed to Iceland and eventually commissioned in the RN as HMS Graph.

[Red Heat]

On the night of 10 September 1941 during the convoy battle involving Convoy SC-44 the corvettes HMCS Chambly (LCdr James Prentice) and HMCS Moose Jaw (Lt Fred Grubb) blasted U-501 (a Type IXC) to the surface with depth charges. Moose Jaw ran along side and the U-Boat's captain, KK Hugo Forster, jumped from his bridge onto the corvettes deck abandoning his boat and crew. Thinking he was being boarded Capt Grubb hauled off and opened fire as U-501 appeared to be getting under weigh again.

Can Forster be considered as defecting? In September '41 things were going quite well for the u-bootwaffe and for Germany in general.

A party from Chambly soon boarded U-501 as the LI scuttled the boat and she sank with 11 dead plus a Canadian stoker who had gone below to attempt to closing the flooding valves.

Let's not forget that Type VII U-570 (KL Hans Rahmlow) surrendered his new boat to a lone Lockheed Hudson patrol bomber on 27 August 1941. When surface warships finally arrived U-570 was subsequently towed to Iceland and eventually commissioned in the RN as HMS Graph.


My personal interpretation on this particular case and that the German submarine commander, relinquished his command post, his crew at a time critical and of great danger to his vessel, officers, and crew showing their inability to all command before the enemy, besides a coward and a deserter, and defeatist ...

I think these would be the main conclusions of a German military court this season. The only situation for themselves or their first Officer/ or Engineer best was the fact that it managed to scuttled the submarine carrying with her the enigma machine, weapons and their secret codes and other sensitive military documents, and take with her eleven canadian who had gone below to attempt to closing the flooding valves.

but the most likely sentence would be death by hanging!

*Salute! :salute:

[GT182]

but the most likely sentence would be death by hanging!


That would be a given, no matter what they did to destroy their U-boat.

[U777]

I would assume that if one were to defect they most likely would have no intentions of going back home anytime soon, something must be driving them to the other side if they were not offered a reward beforehand.

[Red Heat]

This case remember another one from the U-154 Type: IXC and his commander Oblt. z.S. Oskar Kusch.


On January 26, 1944, Oblt. z.S. Oskar Kusch was condemned to death by a military tribunal and executed on May 12, 1944, after being denounced by his former IWO for alleged "Wehrkraftzersetzung" (sedition and defeatism). Kusch was one of only two U-boat commanders to be sentenced to death by German authorities, the other being Heinz Hirsacker of U-572 who was convicted of cowardice and committed suicide on April 24, 1943, shortly before his scheduled execution.


The Commander of the boat, Oblt. Oskar Kusch, was executed on 12 May ´for his anti-Hitler views´ after his IWO* turned him in. He was convicted in late January. * The former I WO and then the commander of U-193, the lawyer Oblt. Ulrich Abel, died when his boat was sunk on 24 April, 1944.


Uboat net:


http://www.uboat.net/boats/u154.htm

[Randomizer]

One has to wonder if U-570's Rahmlow and U-501's Forster might actually have been less than steller Nazi's, maybe even downright unbelievers or secret opponents of the war itself. For whilst it is evident that not all U-Boat officers were convinced Nazi's, in 1941 it is difficult to believe that those who actually objected to the regime would show this publically, particularly while Germany appeared to be winning.

Regardless, both seem to have given up their boats with remarkable ease.

I understand that KL Rahmlow was tried and convicted by an Honour Counsel, the presiding officer being one KK Otto Kretschmer (U-99) and that he was subsequently moved to a POW facility for Luftwaffe prisoners for his own safety. See Blair, Hitler's U-Boat War Vol 1 pp 348.

The The Canadian Naval Chronicle states that then KL Kretschmer also had nasty words for KK Forster, who apperantly served his POW time isolated from other naval prisoners as well. Also see Blair, op cit pg 363.

[Freiwillige]

Still the instances are rare. Its like comparing the George Washington brigade or the British defects to the Waffen SS. A few takers but never enough to brag about:nope:

[Hottentot]

Interesting thread. I don't know much about the subject, but I just want to point one thing out:

But that bomber will still takeoff regardless, I haven't heard of any B-17 mission canceled due to lack of fuel.This is an argument you can't make when discussing history and one that we history majors get constantly reminded of at least in my university. It assumes that the subject (in this case crewmen of an U-boat) has the knowledge that we have, but a sailor back then couldn't just take a book from his shelf and say "Oh hey, nevermind guys, it's not going to make a difference anyway". Fortunately for us Hitler couldn't take a book from his shelf and see how badly he would get screwed in Russia.

Of course we can always assume that the men had some knowledge of things, but those would most likely in this case be simply assumptions and rumors, easily seen as defeatism and pessimism by those more inclined to continue the fight. Plus it is entirely possible that the men simply didn't have any ways to make such assumptions in any serious manner. As far as I know, veterans are often very interested in reading researches about a war they participated in. One reason for this is, that one person in war is just one person in war and sees what he or she can. After the war he or she (to quote one lecturer) "wants to know what the heck he has been doing for the last few years" and so searches for information on grander scale of things.

Edit: removed swearing from the quote.